Fibre installed - 20mbps lower than estimate.

Hi all,

This has been posted on the plus net forums but thought I'd make a post here just to see if anyone has a better idea.
Had fibre estimated at 71Mbps. I'm less than 100metres from my cabinet (confirmed by BT). When connected I was getting about 49Mbps download speeds but my current line speed on the plusnet site was showing up as 78Mbps.

Currently my IP Profile is set to 52mbps according to speedtester.bt.com

I raised a fault with plusnet and they sent out a BT engineer.

He tested the line and pair quality, and all came back positive. He informed me my BT cabinet is ~100m away, so very close. He then connected his little machine to the master socket and with help from his colleagues tested the line by pushing 80mbps-100 down the line but the tests still came back at around 50mbps. He said rewiring the house would not help as it's fine as it is, and that's all that my line is capable of.

Plusnet then arranged for a second engineer visit as they obviously didn't buy what he said. 2nd BT engineer came around and tested some more. He said he managed to bump it to 60Mbps. He went down to the cabinet and tested there and his words were that he gets 80Mbps there, but by the time it gets to my house (less than 100m away) the speed has significantly dropped. He said the thinks there's some problems with the wires, and that everyone connected to it would probably be getting lower speeds, and that all the wires connected to the cabinet probably need to be replaced. He said he'll send off his report.

Does anyone know if BT will do anything about this? And how long it'll take?

Edited by deleted (Fri 14-Dec-12 11:36:55)

Thought I'd also paste the engineer notes:

engineer notes:
Line pass on initial pq test with no issues or errors. On VDSL test line was in sync with downstream speed of 51MBps. Both test results have been saved and will be uploaded.
Checeked connection at the end of lead where Dropwire comes into property and downstream speed was still the same with the max capacity of line being 51MBps. Engineer tested internal wiring and all tested ok at this point.
Downtream speed was measured at JF6 at the bottom of DP and there was an increase by a few megs to 54MBps. VDSL test was run from PCP and the max capacity and rate was achieved of 80MBps on the download and 20MBps on the upload. New D side was proved from DP to PCP, and reterminated in JF6. VDSL test again was run from this point with downstream speed of over 61MBps.

On checking the network records showing cable layout of area, engineer noticed there is a lead cable running from JF6 outisde *address edited out* to JF6 next to PCP. On speed tests and measurements, engineer came to conclusion that this cable length is the cause of the loss in downstream speed.
A1024 ref 12223474 raised so that cable length can be replaced. EU have been advised of the above.
Line pass on eclipse, ft2, FTC and pq test

Anyone? Would be most grateful to find out what BT are like with things like this.

engineer noticed there is a lead cable

Is that lead as in the metal, or something else e.g. lead as in leading?

No idea - Was wondering the same thing!

Downtream speed was measured at JF6 at the bottom of DP and there was an increase by a few megs to 54MBps. VDSL test was run from PCP and the max capacity and rate was achieved of 80MBps on the download and 20MBps on the upload. New D side was proved from DP to PCP, and reterminated in JF6. VDSL test again was run from this point with downstream speed of over 61MBps.

On checking the network records showing cable layout of area, engineer noticed there is a lead cable running from JF6 outisde *address edited out* to JF6 next to PCP. On speed tests and measurements, engineer came to conclusion that this cable length is the cause of the loss in downstream speed.
A1024 ref 12223474 raised so that cable length can be replaced. EU have been advised of the above.
Line pass on eclipse, ft2, FTC and pq test

Basically looks like the cable between the box next to the cab, to box at the base of the pole that feeds your property, is lead covered, most likely containing paper insulated copper pairs. These length sounds like it's not making the best of the sync coming from the cab.

Since there is no 'hard' fault on the line (It passes the Ppair Quality test.) Then the engineer has done the only other thing possible, and raised an A1024 for this length to be replaced ..... but don't hold your breath.

Thanks for the explanation. Do BTOR not normally bother with things like this even if their own engineer has identified a "fault"? Plusnet updated me saying BTOR have acknowledged it and will replace it, but have given no timeline for this.

Do BTOR not normally bother with things like this even if their own engineer has identified a "fault"? Plusnet updated me saying BTOR have acknowledged it and will replace it, but have given no timeline for this.

Hmm, I'd not be holding my breath.

No doubt the 1024 has been raised for excessive loss on this cable. The pairs within have a very low rate of twist between the pairs, resulting in low AC balance, high crosstalk, all those delightful things you don't want on the pair serving your house. However, this does not make the length renewal a priority.
On the plus side, it's only a short length, and if already through existing duct, won't cost too much to replace.

OR are, in many areas of the country, very busy at the moment, so sadly this kind of work will get put on the back boiler, for now.

Good luck.

Just had an update from Plusnet:

Our suppliers confirm that a task has been raised for BT openreach to address the issue with the cable, and they have asserted that an update should be available within 3 working days. - They mentioned they raised an LN fault.

Not sure if this means something will be done regarding the cables within three days, or that they'll contact me to say "BT will fix this issue sometime in the next 5 years" within the next three days!

If the PQ test passed, then there was no LN (local network) fault. I'd be banking on your 2nd guess.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

engineer noticed there is a lead cable

Is that lead as in the metal, or something else e.g. lead as in leading?

Is that leading as in: to be in front of or to guide the way OR to be surrounded with a bluish-grey metal lead which uses the symbol Pb and has atomic number 82?

It is not realy a fault as such. You voice lne works fine and your FTTC is a reasonable speed. I suspect that they may relace it at some point but will probably be a very low priority

Lead as in the metal - it's this sort of cable (click).

No need to guess, I can do that. The answer was already given:

In reply to a post by relax24:

No idea - Was wondering the same thing!

Well Plusnet contacted me to say they have had confirmation from the suppliers (I'm guessin OR) that cabling work has been completed, yet my speeds remain the same. They want to send another engineer around. I have no idea what this 3rd engineer will do that's any different to the previous guys.

I wonder why I'm getting so much lower than my estimate. It still confuses me:

Line Quality - Good
Wiring - Good
Close to cabinet - Yes (~100m)
Cabling work completed? - Yes

Am I missing something here?

Hi relax24,

Sorry we're late coming to this thread. I suspect that it's a matter of your profile needing to uplift now the wiring has been replaced, but that may have happened and it could be down to the profile on our side. If you could post up a ticket ID or PM me your username I'd be happy to take a look for you?

Only issue is we can't reset SNR or anything on a fibre line so if it's not down to our profile you're pretty much waiting for the speed on the BT side to uplift of its own accord.

In reply to a post by orbrey:

Hi relax24,

Sorry we're late coming to this thread. I suspect that it's a matter of your profile needing to uplift now the wiring has been replaced, but that may have happened and it could be down to the profile on our side. If you could post up a ticket ID or PM me your username I'd be happy to take a look for you?

Only issue is we can't reset SNR or anything on a fibre line so if it's not down to our profile you're pretty much waiting for the speed on the BT side to uplift of its own accord.

Hi - Ticket number is #63131766

Cheers for your help!

Hi there, thanks very much for that. It seems from the ticket that you've an engineer visit scheduled for Saturday? They should be able to sort things out for you, including resetting the SNR (if you ask nicely I suspect - it's done at the cabinet so a mug of tea and a few biscuits may well help that along, just a thought though).

Either way I'd recommend waiting until the engineer visit is complete before we look into anything further as chances are he'll get things sorted.

EDIT: Apologies. I suspect this engineer would be similar to the install engineer, i.e. to prove that the new cable length is working, though I'd definitely take the chance to ask about the profile (if you have some BT speed test results handy too that might help as well).

Edited by deleted (Thu 10-Jan-13 12:02:58)

Cheers for that.

I'm just worried that all he's going to do is turn up, I'll tell him the cable was replaced as confirmed by OR and Plusnet, he'll do some quick checks at the Master Socket, and then tell me that is all my line is apparently capable of and then [censored] (didn't know b*gger was a rude word!) off!

Should I actually ask him specifically to do a SNR reset?

Edited by deleted (Thu 10-Jan-13 12:07:18)

I would probably have speed test results handy (or ask if he doesn't mind you running one while he's finishing off his tea ) and see what that shows, if it's still the same ask what he recommends - if the reset isn't mentioned you could ask him whether he could arrange things for you so your line is reset and allowed to retrain at the best possible speed?

In reply to a post by relax24:

and then [censored]
(didn't know b*gger was a rude word!) off!

Look up the meaning of the word and decide if that's what the Openreach engineer might do at your property!

Edited by Oliver341 (Thu 10-Jan-13 15:01:13)

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by relax24:

and then [censored]
(didn't know b*gger was a rude word!) off!

Look up the meaning of the word and decide if that's what the Openreach engineer might do at your property!

Wow I knew the informal meaning but didn't know the "technical" meaning. Let's hope he does none of that. Only I'm allowed to do that at my property!

In reply to a post by relax24:

Wow I knew the informal meaning but didn't know the "technical" meaning. Let's hope he does none of that. Only I'm allowed to do that at my property!

There's a word starts with "f" and is often followed by "off". Now tell us you don't know the technical meaning of that .

(Oh - and read your PMs).

Edited by RobertoS (Thu 10-Jan-13 20:35:14)

We have reviewed your issue again today with Openreach and have decided to remove the appointment for tomorrow based on a number of issues that are beyond our control.

First of all the previous engineer did acknowledge that cabling work did need to be done however this was never completed. The correct report was raised via the Openreach systems and has remained with the planning department since then. The report that was raised is for a 300 pair cable to be replaced which would be a substantial cost. As it remains with the planning department I have pushed back on our suppliers to confirm whether there are other circuits affected by the particular cable, to which I have been informed this is not the case meaning we have very little substance to our argument.

Secondly as the report is still awaiting a review, I must advise it is very likely to be rejected based on the costs involved against the benefits it will offer. It would appear there are no circuits running on a serious decline.

Thirdly I requested that our contact at Openreach speaks with the engineer which last visited site who suggested that further changes to the pairs used to the connect the line is likely to decrease the sync speed overall as opposed to actually increase it.

Finally in terms of the line itself an estimate is not guaranteed in any sense and in such cases like this there will be reasons why the estimate cannot be reached. Overall a 55MB sync speed is very good based on the national average. We have now cancelled the appointment for tomorrow.

Should the line experience a significant decline in the future then by all means get back in touch with but for now it will not be progressed based on the facts we have.

We apologise for any inconvenience this issue may of caused.

Guess I'm just going to have to wait for FTTP!

That's rough .

As they say though, in slightly stronger language, these things happen.

It could be worse though. You got a lot more than most people.

Yea, I'm ok with that I guess, it's just I'd like to know (which I've asked) what is affecting my speeds. I seem to have conditions ideal for a much higher speeds, so I guess I just want an explanation, even if they aren't going to do anything about it, of why it's lower.

?
I thought it was almost certain to be that cable that needs replacing? But won't be, just for you, as it isn't actually faulty.

How many people might be on it? And how many get poor speeds, (on ADSLx as well as FTTC), but just assume that's how things are? That reply doesn't really say your the only one, it says your the only one that's complained.

I don't suppose you have any router stats around from when you were on ADSLx?

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 11-Jan-13 16:48:12)

I thought it read as none of the other circuits are connecting at a low rate. That's another thing I don't understand. Engineer says cable should be replaced, plusnet contact them back and now they say the new cable would lower sync rather than improve it

Erm sorry I don't have any router stats from my previous o2 adsl2+ broadband, just that my attenuation was 35db, and my SNR was 3, and I used to get around 6Mbps download speeds.

I could unlock my fibre modem and get the stats from that later if that would help?

Edited by deleted (Fri 11-Jan-13 17:25:11)

It may be that the other pairs are all in use and you got the short straw ie. the one with a more dodgy repair than the others.

A 300 pair cable replacement if that is what they think is really needed is something not done very often and given the speeds you are getting I doubt they even seriously considered it, unless you offered to pay the cost yourself.

Well would not be happy with that out come, Do you talk to your neighbours ? if so and they also have ADSL FTTC it maybe worth while asking them what speeds they are getting, and more importantly if they are
A, Happy with the speeds they get(once you have informed them about the prehistoric BT line plant ) that is causing a serious degradation of service (xdsl)
B, if they would like this fixed, and are willing to sign a formal petition ,should you organise one,
the more people complaining the more chance of BT upgrading the cable , all you can do is make them aware of the facts that they could be potentially being short changed due to this

As for the line not having a fault , it may comply with BT's sin requirements (PTSN) voice, oh and dial up support , But that too is in need of change now that we have FTTC , After all telephone lines where never intended to run ADSL & FFTC services on them, hence why they make no guarantees regarding this

But they don't mind charging ISP'S and SP's for this , If the old line plant is not up to the job,they should replace it, or not sell Xdsl services on it ,

In reply to a post by relax24:

I thought it read as none of the other circuits are connecting at a low rate. That's another thing I don't understand. Engineer says cable should be replaced, plusnet contact them back and now they say the new cable would lower sync rather than improve it

Not quite. Changing to a different pair within the bad cable could lower it. As I well know to my cost . I had a great line all the way to the exchange on O2 LLU, then I and several neighbouring house lost all phone services for four days due to an e-side failure. When we got reconnected I'd lost over 700kbps sync . Which from 6700kbps was a big loss.

Then later on my line developed a fault where it would go into losing sync as soon as reconnected loops for hours. Fortunately on O2 LLU it didn't matter, and doing the Quiet Line test when it happened stoped it within 20 seconds - leave the QLT running for 5 minutes or so and all was well until the next time.

I put up with it for a year or so, getting worse till it was a couple of times every day. Didn't report it as what sort of pair would I have got next? Several OR engineers spoken to say the e-side cable from here is disastrous. You see them at the cabinet often, trying to get a working pair for a new customer or a failed pair.

That was a big factor in going to FTTC, where all is great.

Erm sorry I don't have any router stats from my previous o2 adsl2+ broadband, just that my attenuation was 35db, and my SNR was 3, and I used to get around 6Mbps download speeds.

Bingo! That should have connected at 13Mbps or more at 6dB, and over 1Mbps more at 3dB. With the normal O2 ~83% of sync speed giving around 1Mbps on speed test for the 13Mbps.

So it's a fair bet everyone around on any broadband is getting a below par service.

I could unlock my fibre modem and get the stats from that later if that would help?

Not worth it.

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 11-Jan-13 18:34:41)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

When we got reconnected I'd lost over 700Mbps sync .

I'm impressed. How many gigabit/s did you start from?

Thanks "Cleggers" .