Fastpath/ interleaving options on fibre ?

Hi

As far as aware VDSL2 has the same options for interleaving as adsl as I've just ordered plunet fibre unlimited I was just wondering if plusnet give the option to turn it on and off or change the levels of it to improve ping, I'm a fairly keen online gamer and like to have a nice low ping.

Thanks

Fastpath/interleave is controlled by DLM ISP'S have very little control I think there are 3 settings available, And i would suspect that many ISP's in particular those mass market ones won'y even be aware of these
but non will totally override what DLM has implemented , Apparently when first connected you will be on fastpath by defualt,and may stay like this, unless DLM meddles with things

A chance that i don't feel i could personally take not with 18-24 mth contract term

Edited by tommy45 (Tue 29-Jan-13 14:44:03)

In reply to a post by tommy45:

A chance that i don't feel i could personally take not with 18-24 mth contract term

Which simply means you can't have FTTC tommy . Even if it's interleaved latency and lack of jitter is better than your ADSL2+ one.

24-month terms? Where? I've seen one somewhere, but it was a no-no site anyway.

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 29-Jan-13 14:47:04)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

24-month terms? Where? I've seen one somewhere, but it was a no-no site anyway.

Zen FTTC is 24 months if you want free installation and a free router. If you pay for installation and provide or pay for your own router, you can have 12 months minimum term.

My dsl ping first hop is 12ms. I expect even lower from FTTC on fastpath. BE there for example let you turn it on and off via their website. They even let you edit your SNR I get 20mbit 2mbit on my line even though im over 1km from exchange and my snr is 2 ( normal target is 6) and it is rock solid.

I'm not expecting the same from plusnet and tbh this is why i did not even consider any bt wholesale ISP but seeing as its unlimited and unthrottled i decided to try.

As far as im aware talk talk and sky theonly 2 LLU operators offering fibre also require a long contract.

Edited by snoz (Tue 29-Jan-13 15:27:20)

In reply to a post by snoz:

As far as im aware talk talk and sky theonly 2 LLU operators offering fibre also require a long contract.

Plusnet and Talktalk 18 months, Sky 12 months.

With Eclipse Home Fibre a 24 month contract seems to be required for Free Setup.

BT Openreach don't allow Customer Parties to choose the interleaving option on FTTC - if DLM thinks you need interleaving, it turns it on, otherwise you remain on fast path. The general view here is that the FTTC DLM works fairly well, though it can be stubborn in holding on to unnecessary limits after a fault has been fixed. In some cases, an engineer has to be sent to get banding removed.

There are three DLM options which trade speed against stability. I haven't quite remembered the official names correctly, but they're something like performance, stable and super stable. This choice is the only control Customer Parties have over an FTTC connection.

When I first connected to Talktalk fttc my ping to bbc.co.uk was sub 15ms, now its 30ms! DLM must have had a field day with my line - its around 400m in length.

I haven't even asked talktalk about it as I suspect there is nothing they can do.

In reply to a post by Apprentice:

With Eclipse Home Fibre a 24 month contract seems to be required for Free Setup.

That may have been the one, but I'm not sure. It's still a no-no!

Standard is 40/2 with 10GBpm. Ludicrous prices for consumer level, £5pm to get 40/10, and no mention of 80/20.

BT living in 1980;s still as to be unexpected. Is the reason why I would never ever get Bt infinity with them sooner have 2mbit. If there was no competition in the UK IE Virgin or the government opening up the local loop we would still all be on 56k modems. IT still hurts to even return to a BT whole sale product, although my time with Nildram was great pre Tiscali take over.

The amount of money I;ve paid them over the years be it wireplay (£3 a minute peak) on a modem or ISDN (£1200 a 1/4 bills) or £80 a month when adsl first came out I should be a major shareholder, while friends in sweden had 100mbit fibre for 30 euro a month back in 2000 !

Anyway rant off, I hope i dont get moved from a fastpath profile , i will speak to engineer when hes here about it maybe he can put me on a profile.

In reply to a post by snoz:

Anyway rant off, I hope i dont get moved from a fastpath profile , i will speak to engineer when hes here about it maybe he can put me on a profile.

The engineer won't have any control over fast path or not. The only options are as I said - three choices set by the Customer Party (in essence, the ISP) trading off speed and stability.

Ultimately, I think BT Openreach took the decision that 'fast path or bust' was not viable on FTTC. When interleaving is deployed, the delay tends to be much less on FTTC than on ADSL.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by tommy45:

A chance that i don't feel i could personally take not with 18-24 mth contract term

Which simply means you can't have FTTC tommy . Even if it's interleaved latency and lack of jitter is better than your ADSL2+ one.

24-month terms? Where? I've seen one somewhere, but it was a no-no site anyway.

On my ADSL connection interleave (even the smallest amount that BE support can configure,adds some 20ms to the from my router to the be gateway)

And although that may not make much of a difference to UK based web sites(even though i am able to detect a slightly slower load times on some sites) The main problem comes when connecting to places like the USA One of the primary reasons for me having an internet connection is for online gaming, and most of the fellow gamers who join me in game regularly live in the USA

Peering /routing is equally important for gaming too, But until /if vectoring is available . or FOD be rolled out and become more viable, i am all too well aware that i won't be ordering FTTC any time soon,

Edited by tommy45 (Tue 29-Jan-13 16:45:04)

Can't say I'm finding ping times to be a problem on my PlusNet FTTC connection:

http://www.pingtest.net/result/76330414.png

Although my line seems pretty stable and I suspect is therefore on a fastpath DLM profile. But as David_W says, if you get a much higher line sync rate, interleaving should be less of a problem.

In reply to a post by snoz:

If there was no competition in the UK IE Virgin or the government opening up the local loop we would still all be on 56k modems. IT still hurts to even return to a BT whole sale product, although my time with Nildram was great pre Tiscali take over.

The economics of FTTx installation are such that it is not commercially viable for two providers to install in an area. It's been tried before, notably with the number of dark fibre / fibre leased line providers in major cities in the last decade (the market became saturated and many went bust), also with Digital Region versus BT Openreach in South Yorkshire (where they're fighting for the same business and many retail providers won't bother establishing themselves with a small wholesale provider).

Where there is BT FTTx, BT Openreach sell wholesale FTTx to anyone wishing to establish their own backhaul - it isn't mandatory to take BT Wholesale backhaul. At the moment, only BT Wholesale, Sky and TalkTalk have chosen to take this option, though other backhaul providers may join in. The FTTx infrastructure takes the place of the metallic local loop in the unbundling process.


Eventually, the whole 'up to', 'fast path or interleaving' and 'that darned DLM' will go away, as all new products will be FTTP or, for blocks of flats and similar, FTTB. These products are installed with optical parameters that should ensure they work with whatever flavour of PON they're fed with. They are either are within specification and work at full speed or are outside specification and should be fixed.

There's not much more possible with metallic local loops - VDSL2 is up against the limits of twisted pair physics. There are important enhancements that may well still come, but I don't foresee another generation of DSL. Vectoring may help to raise speeds by limiting the effects of near-end crosstalk at the DSLAM. For the best lines, there is the possibility of greater speeds via a profile 17a uncapped product or deployment of profile 30a. It may also be possible to ease or lift the power mask on the spectrum shared with ADSL2+, especially if areas become FTTC only.


It will be interesting to see how FTTP deployment goes over the next few years, both in terms of FTTP roll-out in FTTC served areas, and in 'virgin' FTTP deployment.

http://www.pingtest.net/result/76335487.png

Interleaved, South Manchester.

I asked the same question last month, if fastpath or interleaving could be changed and I was told it's not available on fibre.

One person who I spoke with at PN didn't even know what fastpath was, or that it's available on ADSL.

Another dumb decision made by openreach, not to allow people to change to fastpath or interleaving. Being part of DLM is not on.

Edited by deleted (Tue 29-Jan-13 22:25:29)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by Apprentice:

With Eclipse Home Fibre a 24 month contract seems to be required for Free Setup.

That may have been the one, but I'm not sure. It's still a no-no!

Standard is 40/2 with 10GBpm. Ludicrous prices for consumer level, £5pm to get 40/10, and no mention of 80/20.

just had a snoop, are they trying to get themselves out of business?

£41 for 40/10 100gig a month and with a huge 2 year contract. Although I guess if it performs immaculate it could be seen as good value, but I would expect immaculate performance for sure on that deal. The problem is with a 2 year contract I would never take a punt. The FTTC market is very inflexible compared to adsl where one could hop from one isp to another month to month with ease.

I have yet to see a line with speed banding applied on fast path, it does seem DLM will always add interleaving first.ahead of banding. I am assuming this was done as BT openreach probably considered banding would generate more end user complaints with a higher loss of speed.

What I was going to do if my line was troublesome and had interleaving applied at a heavy level was downgrade to 40/10 to get a big snrm but I havent needed to and also as RobertoS has posted it seems there is some light interleaving profiles which dont look too bad compared to how heavy it was on BTw adsl.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

The FTTC market is very inflexible compared to adsl where one could hop from one isp to another month to month with ease.

I suspect this is because of the high setup costs from OpenReach and (I was told) a minimum of a 12 month contract between the ISP and OpenReach for each provide. Hopefully it'll change once self installs become more common.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by Apprentice:

With Eclipse Home Fibre a 24 month contract seems to be required for Free Setup.

That may have been the one, but I'm not sure. It's still a no-no!

Standard is 40/2 with 10GBpm. Ludicrous prices for consumer level, £5pm to get 40/10, and no mention of 80/20.

just had a snoop, are they trying to get themselves out of business?

£41 for 40/10 100gig a month and with a huge 2 year contract. Although I guess if it performs immaculate it could be seen as good value, but I would expect immaculate performance for sure on that deal. The problem is with a 2 year contract I would never take a punt. The FTTC market is very inflexible compared to adsl where one could hop from one isp to another month to month with ease.

Oh yes eclipse, bored of waiting for a 80/20 product, at a price i don't wanna keep on bursting out laughing when i view there FTTC web page.
It's been way before xmas, a good part of last year they said something is coming, and still nothing, thats why i'm on here a lot getting the information i need to give myself i push to jump over to plusnet, but i still feel plus net as the odd bug in there ordering system like dumping all there web orders on the wrong product 40/10,but i think that issue as been fixed.
And when you place your order to migrate from another isp there is nowhere to enter your mac code along the ordering process online, don't know if any of the plus net team could answer the last question?

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

just had a snoop, are they trying to get themselves out of business?

Not whilst they are milking their monopoly in Hull!

In reply to a post by nuke_me:

And when you place your order to migrate from another isp there is nowhere to enter your mac code along the ordering process online, don't know if any of the plus net team could answer the last question?

I seem to remember there was a box for the MAC code somewhere in the sign-up process (I signed up to PlusNet at the beginning of Jan). But no problem if you don't find it or don't have your MAC code to hand at that point - you can just call them once you receive the order confirmation (within a few minutes of completing the online form usually). That's the route I took and it all worked perfectly.

If you're going to move to PlusNet, make sure you do it before 7th Feb to get the 6 months of half-price broadband rental. Finally, I understand the problem with FTTC customers being put on the wrong product has now been fixed for new sign-ups, although there are still some orders in the pipeline that were affected by it. So you should be fine if you order now.

In reply to a post by Spasch:

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

The FTTC market is very inflexible compared to adsl where one could hop from one isp to another month to month with ease.

I suspect this is because of the high setup costs from OpenReach and (I was told) a minimum of a 12 month contract between the ISP and OpenReach for each provide. Hopefully it'll change once self installs become more common.

agreed, me and aaisp have both put complaints in, no idea if anyone else has but I assume the smaller isps like adsl24 have also.

but i still feel plus net as the odd bug in there ordering system like dumping all there web orders on the wrong product 40/10,but i think that issue as been fixed.

This has now been fixed and you'd be provisioned on the correct product.

And when you place your order to migrate from another isp there is nowhere to enter your mac code along the ordering process online, don't know if any of the plus net team could answer the last question?

You can enter your MAC could wither online or give it to our support team providing one is needed.

In reply to a post by chrispurvey:

your MAC could wither online

Spill chuckers - don't you just love them?

In reply to a post by Jaggies:

In reply to a post by chrispurvey:

your MAC could wither online

Spill chuckers - don't you just love them?

At least it isn't just spiel.

In reply to a post by superspeed:

Another dumb decision made by openreach, not to allow people to change to fastpath or interleaving. Being part of DLM is not on.

Yet again, you are making sweeping assertions based on how you want the world to be, rather than listening to the many here who speak based on understanding of the technical limitations.

You started a long thread about 'fibre speeds should be fixed', and it was explained to you several times that if you wanted a fixed speed FTTC product, it would be provisioned on a huge noise margin to allow for the inevitable fluctuations in VDSL line conditions and would still likely need a "it's too hard - we give up and release you from your contract" clause. The huge noise margin means you would lose a substantial proportion of the speed the line is capable of. I covered this in more detail here.


Consumers tend to demand the highest 'up to' figure that works - which is where DLM comes in. Generally, it seems that BT Openreach's FTTC DLM works fairly well, though it is arguably a little too persistent in holding on to restrictions after line conditions improve and their necessity has passed. It is also nonsense that, at the moment, it sometimes takes an engineer visit to remove an unnecessary banding. I'm sure BT Openreach will improve these things in time as they continue to refine the FTTC service in the light of operational experience. Hopefully vectoring will be deployed as part of these refinements over the next year or so, which will help to ensure all lines perform to their full potential.

VDSL2 allows for modest levels of interleaving and impulse noise protection, which have a small effect on latency - much less than on ADSL2+ - but potentially a dramatic effect on stability and performance. As such, BT Openreach have refused to give Customer Parties 'fast path or bust' setting on FTTC - it's better to give DLM access to a full range of strategies.

If the FTTC DLM can leave a line on fast path, it does. If interleaving is required, it is set - but it is eventually removed if it is no longer necessary. It seems that the FTTC DLM initially opts for modest levels of interleaving and/or INP rather than resorting to an increased noise margin with the consequent drop in sync speed. This is in line with what most consumers will want - they would rather keep speed at the expense of a modest increase in latency and jitter. The only setting Customer Parties have on BT FTTC line is a choice of three different DLM trade-offs between speed and stability.


Twisted pairs will always be limited by the physics. If your require the low latency and jitter of fast path, guaranteed line speed (but not necessarily guaranteed throughput in the absence of an expensive service that guarantees throughput - I guess we will eventually see an Etherway over FTTP product) and a migration path to higher speeds in the future, FTTP On Demand will be available to those in FTTC served areas later this year. It will not be cheap, however.