How do I know how much I owe?

Hi

Hopefully a rep will see this!

I moved my phone and Fibre connection to Sky on the 8/10/13.

Had an email the other day saying I had an update to my messages or something, but my account has been deleted by Plusnet.

How am I supposed to see what happening, including any amount I may owe?

Thanks

Probably best to pick up a phone given situation you've explained.

They are open 24x7...

So exactly how does this ''Phone'' thing work ??

Try running "C:\Program Files\Windows NT\dialer.exe" if you have Windows.

ummmmm... 0800 432 0200 (worked for me, just now... about a 20 min wait but hey, their 0800, so not costing me cash).

In case anyone wondering, seems my usage stats 'stopped' recording traffic from 14:00 or so today.

Not sure if it is widespread, but took a little while for CS person to spot that only morning's traffic of about 2.5 GB has been recorded, and a further ~4 GB this afternoon hasn't.

could be a big "if" these days... with Android, linux, and so on

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Try running "C:\Program Files\Windows NT\dialer.exe" if you have Windows.

Or "C:\Windows\System32\dialer.exe" in Windows 7 & 8.

perhaps something like %SystemRoot\System32\dialer.exe ?

In reply to a post by ultra:

perhaps something like %SystemRoot\System32\dialer.exe ?

Would work too. You missed a percent though: %SystemRoot%\System32\dialer.exe

In reply to a post by ultra:

Probably best to pick up a phone given situation you've explained.

They are open 24x7...

nah cba to wait in a queue to be honest. They shouldn't have deleted the account if there was an amount owing. I do everything off my phone at work. If they don't answer within a day or so I'll just cancel the DD then if there's anything owing then I'm sure they will be in touch!

Cancelling the Direct Debit is not necessarily a good idea if there might be a sum outstanding.

I'd leave the Direct Debit in place for a month or so. PlusNet are obliged by the Direct Debit Guarantee to give you notice of the sum they intend to debit. If they do not do so, you can contact your bank and have the sum reversed under the Direct Debit Guarantee.

Agreed, but:

In reply to a post by David_W:

If they do not do so, you can contact your bank and have the sum reversed under the Direct Debit Guarantee.

But only if you disagree with the amount.

Otherwise, you are only moving the debt to a more complicated level like debt collectors.

Not sure about the exact choice of actions at their end... If you decide to leave, but don't ask them to downgrade your account (assuming it is still possible) to a "dial-up" account, then there's probably no obligation on them to retain the account mailbox.

It might be a bit too early in some circumstances, but I would hope by now that few people depend only on the ISP-provided mail account, and may have already submitted a mobile number and alternative e-mail address for communication.

If they have no easy means of getting in touch, they may resort to the slowest and costliest, in the form of a letter (perhaps with the suggestion, as someone else has mentioned, of debt collectors). It's probably a lot less hassle in the long run to get in touch than perhaps have a "bad credit" rating if they submit a "payment not made" report and have that on file for a while.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Agreed, but:

In reply to a post by David_W:

If they do not do so, you can contact your bank and have the sum reversed under the Direct Debit Guarantee.

But only if you disagree with the amount.

Incorrect - a change in frequency of debits or expected date of debit also triggers a prior notification requirement under the Direct Debit Guarantee. If prior notification is not given, there is a right to immediate refund via your bank or building society.

It would be unusual for a final payment to be for the full monthly amount, and it may not be collected according to the previously established billing cycle (depending on the organisation - I don't know PlusNet's policies).

I think the OP is referring to the Member Centre account access.

I think you misunderstand me. I know you have a right to a refund if there is an unnotified change but I am recommending not to exercise that right if only anything bar the amount is wrong. Otherwise you will still be in debt to the company.

Or are you saying a refund from the bank under the Direct Debit Guarantee does not in turn result in a chargeback from the company?

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

I think you misunderstand me. I know you have a right to a refund if there is an unnotified change but I am recommending not to exercise that right if only anything bar the amount is wrong. Otherwise you will still be in debt to the company.

That wasn't what you said. Your words implied that the Direct Debit Guarantee only covers changes in amount, which is incorrect.

Even for a change of amount, I'd ring the company for an explanation first unless they've done something crazy like debiting far more than the sum you believe you owe, leaving you overdrawn.

There are two completely separate sets of legal rights and responsibilities here. One set relates to the contract between the individual and their bank, which incorporates the Direct Debit Guarantee. The second set relates to the contract between the individual and the supplier of goods and services. It is your right to activate the Direct Debit Guarantee as an account holder, but doing so does not affect the right of the supplier to the money you owe them. It's better to sort out any dispute with the supplier over the sum owed at the earliest opportunity than to use a right to snatch back your payment and wait for the supplier to pursue you.

The Direct Debit Guarantee is a safeguard but not, I'd argue, the first port of call for most problems.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Or are you saying a refund from the bank under the Direct Debit Guarantee does not in turn result in a chargeback from the company?

I have no idea where chargeback comes into this, unless you're using the term by analogy to credit and debit cards. If you activate the Direct Debit Guarantee, you are refunded and the supplier is ultimately debited the same amount.


I'm not familiar with exactly how the mechanism works, other than I believe successfully activating the Guarantee obliges your bank or building society to refund you, and this refund is final. The bank or building society then has to pursue the debiting party to get their money back - I believe organisations authorised to operate Direct Debits have to deposit some sort of security with their bank to cover Direct Debit Guarantee claims.

If I'm right about the way the Direct Debit Guarantee operates, it's more like section 75 Consumer Credit Act 1974 (groan) than chargeback. With s. 75, the debtor has the option of making the creditor severally (i.e. solely) responsible for sums due in breach of contract or as a result of misrepresentation, in which case any dispute raised by the supplier only affects the bank's right to recover their losses from the supplier. With chargeback, the cardholder only gets and keeps their money if the claim made on their behalf against the supplier succeeds. A chargeback initially credited under the card scheme's rules can be challenged by the supplier - if such a challenge is successful, the sum is redebited from the cardholder's account.

Very irritating and contrary!

In reply to a post by David_W:

Your words implied that the Direct Debit Guarantee only covers changes in amount, which is incorrect.

Nothing of the sort! I was just recommending a specific exception to your general instruction:

In reply to a post by David_W:

PlusNet are obliged by the Direct Debit Guarantee to give you notice of the sum they intend to debit. If they do not do so, you can contact your bank and have the sum reversed under the Direct Debit Guarantee.

The rest of your reply was so completely unnecessary to answering my point to you. Ever heard of 'Yes' and 'No'? Really, you do not have to give us chapter and verse of every legal aspect under the sun every time you answer a simple Q. A simple summary will do. If we need to know deeper I'm sure that most of us are capable of looking it up. We are not enrolled at your lecture theatre.

In reply to a post by David_W:

It's better to sort out any dispute with the supplier over the sum owed at the earliest opportunity than to use a right to snatch back your payment and wait for the supplier to pursue you.

The opposite of what you said in the 1st place:

In reply to a post by David_W:

If they do not do so, you can contact your bank and have the sum reversed under the Direct Debit Guarantee.

Make up your mind!

In reply to a post by David_W:

I have no idea where chargeback comes into this, unless you're using the term by analogy to credit and debit cards.

C'mon, loosen up! Stop being so literal minded. Try some lateral thinking!

Your reply is basically a pointless word game in an attempt to show contradiction on my part. I'm not going to enter into that discussion, as it's just a waste of everyone's time. If that leaves your ego with the warm glow of feeling you've won an important victory at my cost, I gladly concede.

Earlier in the thread, the way you used chargeback was backwards: "does not in turn result in a chargeback from the company". If a chargeback came from the company, that would be them recovering money from the customer. I said nothing because your intended meaning was clear: if a consumer successfully invokes the Direct Debit Guarantee, the bank recovers the money from the company.

So long as the meaning is sufficiently clear to those that are reading and there is no ambiguity resulting, minor errors are not usually worth commenting on (I did so here only to exemplify my point).


The comments on chargeback were because you introduced a term with a specific meaning that has an important conceptual difference. A card chargeback can be reversed and the money returned to the supplier if the supplier successfully challenges the chargeback. A Direct Debit Guarantee refund is irreversible unless the customer misled their bank about there being bank or supplier error in connection with the supplier notification or the payment itself (the only grounds on which the Guarantee applies).

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by David_W:

Your words implied that the Direct Debit Guarantee only covers changes in amount, which is incorrect.

Nothing of the sort! I was just recommending a specific exception to your general instruction:

That point is interesting. Sky debit my bank account a different amount each month via Direct Debit, since the call charges vary each month. Under the Direct Debit guarantee I was under the impression that they should email me a few days before each amount is debited to tell me the amount and when it is going out of my account.

Would my understanding be correct?

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

Sky debit my bank account a different amount each month via Direct Debit, since the call charges vary each month. Under the Direct Debit guarantee I was under the impression that they should email me a few days before each amount is debited to tell me the amount and when it is going out of my account.

Would my understanding be correct?

I believe so, or inform you by some other means. I always get an email from Plusnet saying how much the direct debit will be.

In reply to a post by kasg:

I believe so, or inform you by some other means. I always get an email from Plusnet saying how much the direct debit will be.

Yeah, I was familiar with the useful Direct Debit emails which Plusnet send out, so it's a shame that Sky don't do something similar, especially as it seems they are obliged to.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

Would my understanding be correct?

Yes. My ISP, Orange, achieves this by emailing me at least 7 days before DD is taken saying 'Your bill is ready here' even tho' my BB charges are constant. Interesting thing is that they only started doing this when I switched from Credit Card to DD - clear case of the DD Guarantee taking effect.

I hit a brick wall when talking to Sky customers services and my bank about the non-notification of variable Direct Debit amounts, and it seemed like a formal complaint would be needed at which point I gave up. Now, I just set a reminder on my PC each month so I can log in and check the amount.

I too believe they are obliged to. An OFT issue perhaps? Maybe FCA.

Have you checked their T & Cs to make sure here isn't some obscure wording that purports to make notification unnecessary?

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 22-Oct-13 13:03:07)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I too believe they are obliged to. An OFT issue perhaps? Maybe FCA.

Have you checked their T & Cs to make sure here isn't some obscure wording that purports to make notification unnecessary?

Yes. I don't think there's anything in Sky's T&C that attempts to absolve them of their Direct Debit responsibilities.

I don't feel strongly enough to take it to other authorities (at this point), but it's still a grumble of mine.

I'd think any complaint about Sky's alleged non-compliance goes to Sky, Oliver's bank and the Financial Ombudsman Service in that order. FOS are probably not interested unless Oliver tries to activate the Direct Debit Guarantee and it is refused.

If there's an online message facility with Sky, Oliver could try sending a one-liner pointing out that he doesn't appear to be getting advanced notification of direct debits.

In reply to a post by David_W:

If there's an online message facility with Sky, Oliver could try sending a one-liner pointing out that he doesn't appear to be getting advanced notification of direct debits.

Done, will post the reply.

I sent in a help request to Sky and got a phone call. I was told the only way to get an advance notification of the Direct Debit amount is to switch to paper billing (which costs extra). I was also given a postal address with which I can take the complaint further.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I think the OP is referring to the Member Centre account access.

You are indeed correct sir!

In reply to a post by ultra:

It might be a bit too early in some circumstances, but I would hope by now that few people depend only on the ISP-provided mail account, and may have already submitted a mobile number and alternative e-mail address for communication.

If they have no easy means of getting in touch, they may resort to the slowest and costliest, in the form of a letter (perhaps with the suggestion, as someone else has mentioned, of debt collectors). It's probably a lot less hassle in the long run to get in touch than perhaps have a "bad credit" rating if they submit a "payment not made" report and have that on file for a while.

I have had my own domain which I use for email for many years, so them getting in touch is not a problem, unless of course, they have deleted all my details off their system!

Hi yoda2691,

I've taken a look at your account and can see nothing is owed and we made a refund from your last bill to give you the monies owed.

The account is now closed too which does restrict member centre access. Are you still requiring access to this?

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

I sent in a help request to Sky and got a phone call. I was told the only way to get an advance notification of the Direct Debit amount is to switch to paper billing (which costs extra). I was also given a postal address with which I can take the complaint further.

It's possible that Sky will say that you can access your bills online, so you can discover the amount to be debited there.

Those companies I deal with that use online billing with direct debit for variable amounts all send an e-mail when the bill is available to view online. Do Sky not do this?

In reply to a post by David_W:

Those companies I deal with that use online billing with direct debit for variable amounts all send an e-mail when the bill is available to view online. Do Sky not do this?

No. I would have thought it would be a relatively simple thing to implement.

I think most do that. The O2 method of (at least on mobile contracts) including the amount in the email is unusual.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I think most do that. The O2 method of (at least on mobile contracts) including the amount in the email is unusual.

Yeah, I think it would be nice to have the amount in the email to save a visit to the website to check the amount, but Sky not emailing anything at all when a bill is generated is insufficient.

In reply to a post by chrispurvey:

Hi yoda2691,

I've taken a look at your account and can see nothing is owed and we made a refund from your last bill to give you the monies owed.

The account is now closed too which does restrict member centre access. Are you still requiring access to this?

Hi Chris.

Many thanks for the reply (which is what I hoped the thread would result in).

No, I no longer require access, all I was concerned about is how much was owed - if its nothing then thats an unexpected bonus!

Cheers for your help

Adrian

No worries, everything is now closed and nothing outstanding.