38/20 dead?

Has there been any announcement, or is this page just wrong? Click the "Show details" on the 38Mbps Unlimited.

I note also the in the Price List it says they are effective from 17 June 2015. I haven't yet looked into them in depth.

Edit - the "FTTC only" page also shows only 2Mbps upstream on the 38Mbps product.

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 16-Jun-15 21:20:32)

Looks like the TalkTalk range. I always thought the 38 / 2 service was a stupid option from BTwholesale / Openreach.

If true, it is a bizarre step backwards after going from 40/10 to 40/20.

Not quite as bizarre as 40/20 in the first place . But not reverting to 40/10 is poor.

That may have been an option requested by TalkTalk, possibly to allow for a cheaper entry point as, presumably, they save a bit on backhaul. Openreach are under a duty to consider all ISP product requests equally on their commercial merits.

In reply to a post by TheEulerID:

That may have been an option requested by TalkTalk, possibly to allow for a cheaper entry point as, presumably, they save a bit on backhaul. Openreach are under a duty to consider all ISP product requests equally on their commercial merits.

Interesting, hadn't realised they could have requested it. It does give a cheaper price point I guess. Many people upload a lot more than they realise.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Looks like the TalkTalk range. I always thought the 38 / 2 service was a stupid option from BTwholesale / Openreach.

Didn't it exist before the 80(78)Mbps product existed? A simple option.

I know I was on 40/10 with IDNet, and when I moved to Plusnet only 40/2 was available from them.

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 16-Jun-15 22:53:44)

It doesn't give details of the upload speed on the broadband only section
and they really need to stop misleading potential customers with incorrect info
example Will speeds go up and down?

Yes, fibre broadband uses the same technology (Dynamic Line Management) as standard broadband to give you the best possible service.

You'll probably see your speed vary over the first 10 days, as the broadband system runs tests to find the best combination of stability and speed for your service.

This can cause your speeds to go up and down. You may even get disconnected a few times. Don't worry, this doesn't mean there's a problem, so please bear with it.

If you have a reasonably good circuit from master socket to dslam in FTTC cab then your sync speed should not change, if your connection isn't stable DLM with clobber you usually after the first 48hrs , there is no 10 day period that is utter bs

And if speeds sync speeds fluctuate then that could well be a sign that there is a line fault, the circuit should not disconnect apart from dlm intervention or network level maintenance /firmware roll-outs

Edited by tommy45 (Tue 16-Jun-15 23:46:25)

In reply to a post by tommy45:

It doesn't give details of the upload speed on the broadband only section

Yes it does. Just as in the broadband+phone section - click on "Show package details" and it's at the top of the right-hand column.

Re the rest of your blurb, we all know that 10-day stuff is garbage. Even on ADSLx. But their suppliers are BT Wholesale, and as you know they say that. Plusnet therefore have to cover their back by stating the same.

You'll find all other BTW based ISPs do the same somewhere or other.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by tommy45:

It doesn't give details of the upload speed on the broadband only section

Yes it does. Just as in the broadband+phone section - click on "Show package details" and it's at the top of the right-hand column.

Re the rest of your blurb, we all know that 10-day stuff is garbage. Even on ADSLx. But their suppliers are BT Wholesale, and as you know they say that. Plusnet therefore have to cover their back by stating the same.

You'll find all other BTW based ISPs do the same somewhere or other.

wrong they all don't mislead the customer with this nonsense

Zen
even Sky don't say there is a 10 day period sky

Edited by tommy45 (Wed 17-Jun-15 01:01:58)

They do if you contact support with a problem within 10 days of joining .

Have you found the bit that says about the 2Mbps, that you said they didn't show?

Fibre Optic Broadband

Minimum downstream throughputs are based on line rate and are provided on a "best efforts" basis. They aim to provide speeds at and above the minimum downstream levels as described in the table for 90% of the busiest 3 hour period of the day. The busiest 3 hours of the day is determined by constant measurement of the network traffic between the DSLAM (the new green street cabinets) and handover points to the Zen Internet network.

Customers taking services with Elevated Minimum Downstream Speeds have their traffic given preferential weighting at a routing point in the network. This gives a higher throughput speed during periods of heavy internet use across the shared network.

Line Rate || Product || Minimum Downstream Speed || Fault Threshold Rate (FTR)*

(Table)

* The FTR is based on the speed that the line is able to synchronise to on first provision (following a period of around 10 days in which the line is allowed to stabilise).

Zen link.

So it does, but it really should be written in big so people can readily see it

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Fibre Optic Broadband

Minimum downstream throughputs are based on line rate and are provided on a "best efforts" basis. They aim to provide speeds at and above the minimum downstream levels as described in the table for 90% of the busiest 3 hour period of the day. The busiest 3 hours of the day is determined by constant measurement of the network traffic between the DSLAM (the new green street cabinets) and handover points to the Zen Internet network.

Customers taking services with Elevated Minimum Downstream Speeds have their traffic given preferential weighting at a routing point in the network. This gives a higher throughput speed during periods of heavy internet use across the shared network.

Line Rate || Product || Minimum Downstream Speed || Fault Threshold Rate (FTR)*

(Table)

* The FTR is based on the speed that the line is able to synchronise to on first provision (following a period of around 10 days in which the line is allowed to stabilise).

Zen link.

that doesn't relate to DLM your trying to twist my words me think's i made no reference to actual throughput rates re my quote from the plusnet site

The throughput bit was just so you could locate things within the Zen page and put the relevant bit in context Tommy. Read what the *FTR line at the end says about the 10-day person of stabilisation in relation to FTTC.

It started at this post of yours, which I replied to earlier showing you were wrong about Plusnet not showing the 2Mbps upload on the no-phone product and also saying you were wrong when you said other ISPs don't have the 10 day stuff.

It was you that brought in an irrelevant Zen page about DLM, presumably thinking that showed they don't mention the ten days. I'm not twisting your words, just pointing you to the correct page.

I've just seen you edited in a Sky link following your wrong Zen link.

First, if you look back, I made it quite clear it was BT Wholesale based ISPs that have it. Sky is not BT Wholesale based for FTTC, any more than it is for ADSL2+. Second, the fact that a person working for Sky agrees with both of us doesn't have any relevance to the fact that BT Wholesale ISPs are stuck with it.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Didn't it exist before the 80(78)Mbps product existed? A simple option.

Yes. The 80Mbps only became available early in 2012, after cabinets were upgraded to profile 17a in late 2011.

I know I was on 40/10 with IDNet, and when I moved to Plusnet only 40/2 was available from them.

In early 2011, my cabinet finally went live ... and I got accepted onto Plusnet's FTTC trial - which made use of the 40/10 variant.

However, BT mucked up the ordering and installation so much that, by the time my FTTC service was installed, Plusnet had actually launched their service at 40/2.

My service started off at 40/2, but because I was still officially part of the trial, they immediately upgraded it to a 40/10 product, which took a few days to go through, over the course of a weekend.

Because of that, I got to see the initial behaviour of DLM, and intervention after 48 hours to fix packet loss. Then, when the regrade went through, I got to see the DLM reset followed by the same 48 hour DLM intervention again.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Looks like the TalkTalk range. I always thought the 38 / 2 service was a stupid option from BTwholesale / Openreach.

I can see the point of a 40/2 product: It is cheaper at wholesale, so it allows for cheaper offers to be made to the public, if you want to do battle with TT for "Britain's cheapest fibre", even if most of the cost reductions need to happen in the "first 6 months" style of offer.

I can see the point of a 40/20 product: It costs more at wholesale, but it lets you target a segment of the market with a "look, our upstream is better than everyone else at this pricepoint". The only downside is that you have less of a gap between this product and the 80/20 one - so harder to get people to upgrade.

Its harder to market two "40Mbps" packages, so I can understand why they feel the need to choose one over the other.

I reckon the 40/20 product is more like the Plusnet of old, before BT took over. Something of a "technical" gain. The 40/2 product seems more like Plusnet under BT ownership, where BT Group have set a strategy that PN's job is to beat TT.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The throughput bit was just so you could locate things within the Zen page and put the relevant bit in context Tommy. Read what the *FTR line at the end says about the 10-day person of stabilisation in relation to FTTC.

It started at this post of yours, which I replied to earlier showing you were wrong about Plusnet not showing the 2Mbps upload on the no-phone product and also saying you were wrong when you said other ISPs don't have the 10 day stuff.

It was you that brought in an irrelevant Zen page about DLM, presumably thinking that showed they don't mention the ten days. I'm not twisting your words, just pointing you to the correct page.

I've just seen you edited in a Sky link following your wrong Zen link.

First, if you look back, I made it quite clear it was BT Wholesale based ISPs that have it. Sky is not BT Wholesale based for FTTC, any more than it is for ADSL2+. Second, the fact that a person working for Sky agrees with both of us doesn't have any relevance to the fact that BT Wholesale ISPs are stuck with it.

In reference to www.zen.co.uk/business/broadband/business-broadband/broadband-gloss...:

FTR (Fault Threshold Rate)
The fault threshold rate (or FTR) is 80% of the MSR. If the line rate drops below the FTR for more than 8 hours in a week period it is considered a fault and a low threshold breach fault can be raised.

Fault threashold rate FTR isn't DLM and has nothing to do with the 10day misinformation peddled as i see things, Zen clearly state on the page that i linked to that DLM of FTTC is different to ADSL dlm, and that it does not have a 10 day period,, and another point DLM on FTTC is Openreach's they have the control over it not Wholesale Openreach DLM is the same regardless of ISP or it they use BTW for back haul or their own LLU/GEA cable links,
squabble all you like

Edited by tommy45 (Wed 17-Jun-15 05:17:41)

From Sky help pages.

http://help.sky.com/articles/fluctuating-speeds-in-y...

as I see things

Utterly wrong Tommy. You see things wrongly.

First, the Zen quote I gave you is about FTTC, and the " *FTR " is the explanation of the asterisk in the quote I gave you. As I said, that's partly why I quoted the whole section, so you could see that.

Second, the whole point of the ten days on ADSLx is to set the FTR. Where it is wrongly interpreted by BT Wholesale is in using it to say speeds may improve over the ten days so speed problems cannot be raised during that period. That is an illogical and silly position by them. The FTR results from the lowest sync, so may be incorrectly set.

The FTR on FTTC is Openeach product dependent and is preset by them at the values given by Zen in that table.

Please quote where Zen say the ten day period does not apply to FTTC, as you claim. I must have missed it on any page you linked to.

Finally, your quote in your current post describes the ADSLx system, as it refers to the MSR. The MSR is in fact what the ten day period establishes on ADSLx, and the ADSLx FTR is then calculated from that as they say. There is no MSR on FTTC, so that definition cannot not apply.

Just give up please Tommy. You were wrong right at the start about Plusnet being the only ISP with the 10-day clause, and each of your attempts to justify your incorrect statement gets you more and more into the mire. Don't forget, as I've already said, in relation to FTTC we are agreed that the 10-day clause is rubbish. But it is still there at BT Wholesale and is applied by BT Wholesale ISPs. They have no option.

If you don't accept this post I shall give up arguing over something where you haven't a leg to stand on. Anything else you say will be just as wrong as everything you have said and I'm moving on.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Re the rest of your blurb, we all know that 10-day stuff is garbage. Even on ADSLx. But their suppliers are BT Wholesale, and as you know they say that. Plusnet therefore have to cover their back by stating the same.

You'll find all other BTW based ISPs do the same somewhere or other.

BT Consumer state 3 days in their published information, online and print. I told you this a long time ago too. They even tie it in to when to contact support.

HomeHub 5 for Infinity Leaflet PDF

page 6 "The first three days after set-up (in bold). After you�ve installed your Hub, it can take about three days to establish the fastest, most reliable broadband possible on your line." You get this printed guide with the Hub 5.

Webpage - What to Expect in the first few days of Broadband

"Although you should have a stable broadband connection after the first hour, tests actually go on for another 3 days to work out the final optimum speed for your phone line.... So if you've had broadband for 3 days or less, you should only contact our helpdesk if you completely lose your broadband service for more than an hour."

Matt has confirmed this over on the PN forum thread

https://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,140...

In reference to cipher1.co.uk/tutorials/bt-hubs/BT_Hub_2_troubleshooting.pdf:

BT Infinity
User Guide and troubleshooting
Getting up to speed

For the first ten days or so, your broadband might slow down or even stop now
and again. That�s normal. It takes that long for your broadband to reach its top speed.
You can help it along by leaving your Home Hub on all the time, and using your
broadband as much as you can for the first ten days. If you�ve got questions about
the speed of your broadband after that, go to
www.bt.com/help/broadbandspeed

There are far too many stroppy people on these forums who say something isn't true because what they find about the subject doesn't agree with the reality.

Thanks for pointing out that BT Consumer also have it somewhere despite the advertising blurb page that particular poster found. Similar to what I had with another wrt the Zen site. They need to be pointed to the relevant page, as they will seize every opportunity to stop looking for it.

They seem unable to comprehend the BT Wholesale statement

For all ADSL and WBC Fibre to the Cabinet (FTTC) services, the stable line rate will be determined during the first 10 days of service usage.

This 10 days is frequently spoken of by posters on many forums as being told to them by help ISP desks when they have a speed problem.

I wonder in how many facets of life they end up crying "Foul!" when they find they have bought something that doesn't do what they thought it would and they have no comeback. Maybe that colours their attitude - they get the habit of getting wrongly irate at people.

Note that the "first three days" is also largely bunkum. Wrt FTTC it certainly isn't part of the product specification. Go and read the relevant part of SIN 498 by Openreach.

Also note that if someone on a BT Consumer broadband connection finds speeds well below the expected, they will be told they have to wait ten days before the speed can be investigated. That stems from the (incorrect) training the support staff are given.

Even on ADSLx the ten days is not a period during which the speed is likely to rise after the first two or three syncs. All the ten days does is set the MSR, and from that the FTR. So a single low-speed sync screws the user up for all time should a fault arise much later.

None of this of course has anything whatsoever to do with Plusnet product changes. It stems entirely from an invalid statement who got it completely wrong, and now you try to say he was right.

It would be nice to return to the topic. Start a new thread in General Broadband Chatter if you wish to witter on about the ten days on any ISPs.

In reference to support.zen.co.uk/kb/Knowledgebase/Fibre-Optic-Broadband-FTTC-What-...:

Fibre Optic Broadband - FTTC: What is DLM and how does it work?

This guide provides an overview of how the Fibre Optic Broadband (FTTC) DLM system works.

NOTE: The Broadband (ADSL and ADSL2+) DLM system works in a different manner. See our guide to the Broadband ADSL DLM system for details.
What is DLM?
DLM, or �Dynamic Line Management�, is the BT Openreach system used to control the speed and stability of Fibre Optic Broadband (FTTC) connections. Fibre Optic Broadband (FTTC) services from Zen will prioritise speed over stability within thresholds defined by the DLM system.

When a service is first provisioned the DLM system will not act for 48 hours. After this time it is likely to be at its most active as it finds the best balance between performance and stability for your line; this should typically result in speeds similar to the estimate provided to you when you ordered the Fibre Optic Broadband service.
What are the DLM thresholds?
Zen Internet provides our Fibre Optic Broadband (FTTC) services on the �Speed� option. A connection should drop no more than 20 times in a 24 hour period, and should error no more than 2 times per minute.
What happens if a threshold is breached?
The DLM system will take action to bring the line back within the threshold. To do this it may apply error correction, it could slow the speed of the line or both � depending on how bad the threshold breach is. If error correction is applied the latency of a line will increase.

They may not say about a 10 day period, but they do say that FTTC DLM is different to adsl , and go on about how it works, But i don't see and reference to FTR rates on that web page i linked to

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/plusnet/t/4414676-3...

I see this as something other than the 10 day bunkem that implies that DLM needs 10 days in which to set the highest sync rate possible for a line, it's that mis information about how DLM really work i was trying to point out, no were do plusnet explain that at point of sale but they do link to this 10 day nonsense

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

There are far too many stroppy people on these forums who say something isn't true because what they find about the subject doesn't agree with the reality.

Thanks for pointing out that BT Consumer also have it somewhere despite the advertising blurb page that particular poster found. Similar to what I had with another wrt the Zen site. They need to be pointed to the relevant page, as they will seize every opportunity to stop looking for it.

You are losing the plot more and more Bob, you only see what you want to see.

That page I linked is THE current BT help page on the matter, the one and only. Same for the Hub 5 Infinity guide. They say 3 days or "about 3 days", end of the matter, and this is essentially true for when DLM will have probably finished its work.

The guide the cheeky troll fed to you is an archived guide from 2010 for a HomeHub 2 hosted on a 3rd party site, out of date and irrelevant!

You're the one who in your thread put in bold that BTw ISPs MUST officially say 10 days... I merely responded, proving that is rubbish, no need to throw your toys out the pram and start a new thread. BT Consumer don't have to say 10 days in their official information, so your excuse for Plusnet needs to go in the bin I'm afraid, doesn't it.

Can you explain why 3 days is now suddenly special?

'step backwards' - expresses my view on it too.

I would have been recommending PN as an option (having changed the 'up to38 Mbps' fibre product to unlimited data - I wouldn't get much better than 33 Mbps according to the estimation tool, but do intend to use Microsoft's 1 TB storage that comes with Office 365), but big difference between uploading at 2 Mbps - my Three mobile with unlimited data + tethering (at 15 quid a month) can go faster on 4G - and some other FTTC offerings...

Also there's Google's unlimited storage with their Photos app for all platforms, so any families taking video clips of children's parties, toddler's first steps, etc, etc would benefit from faster upload speeds... Dumb idea to limit the product, I think.

Sadly looks like my fibre will be from elsewhere!

Yes, coming to this late but the change to 40/2 is extremely disappointing and likely to cost Plusnet my lines when I come to upgrade from adsl to fibre later this year

The telephone price rises - unfortunate but they happen - but I can live with them.

Removing the usage stats on their website - a shame as it was interesting to look at sometimes but that is there choice.

The cut in 24/7 support - more worrying - especially for my elderly parents etc. - in case there is a land line fault and especially if what I read about the online ticket system going is true.

But the decision to downgrade from 40/10 to 40/2 takes away much of the reason for many to upgrade from adsl to fibre in the first place - especially on lines which may not benefit from 80/20 speeds

I understand the cost reasons for doing so but at the very least, it could be offered as an option