Sky to Plusnet

The deal I've found with Plusnet expires tomorrow and having done a dummy run through the order a day or so ago found I could save myself a couple of quid even if I applied before my Sky contract expired.

Imagine my annoyance when I went to complete the order today and they wacked another £50 on for swapping Sky to BT network. I am sure this didn't show up a few days ago.

There was some talk about a charge being levied for customers moving to Sky from BT a while back, but I can't find the thread.

What are the actual rules? I don't think anyone could establish them in the previous threads.

I feel a move to Origin will be on the cards.

Edited by hk11 (Mon 23-Oct-17 18:40:20)

It should be £30 which is a cease charge and can be levied when moving from BT to LLU

Edited by deleted (Tue 24-Oct-17 10:06:00)

Isn't any move classed as a migration?

apparently not as with LLU it is often classed as a cease and reprovide

Incorrect, its classed as a migration, only if gaining provider screws up ordering does a cease charge get raised and down to gaining provider to admit their mistake internally and swallow the charge.

If the person has ordered and said they need a new line then charges may be different, but switching should not need a new line usually

I suggest reading this thread https://community.plus.net/t5/My-Account-Billing/Plu... which basically says in post 4

The cease fee is related to the type of order the gaining provider places and is directly related to whether we get charged a wholesale cease fee or not. If the gaining provider places the orders and the cease code is W or P then they are the ones we charge for.

Guess I've just been lucky when flipping between providers doing LLU to WLR and back every 12 to 18 months then.

Oddly this only seems to show up with PlusNet, others absorbing the charge rather than putting customers off maybe?

Given the numbers of people attracted to LLU deals you'd expect to see a lot more of these cropping up if it was totally normal.

It does seem that only Plusnet do it as I haven't heard of others complaining

I had the same issue a few months ago when trying to move from Plusnet to Sky. Sky's web-site suddenly added an extra charge that had not been there when, like you, I did a dummy run. I abandoned the move to Sky and went to Origin instead.
The resulting mess took a month to sort out as Plusnet had instantly placed a cease order on my line in anticipation of the move to Sky. That stopped Origin taking it for several weeks. Plusnet refused to accept that the order was placed by them, that it was their fault or that they could simply withdraw the cease order.
I found the Ofcom rules by googling, which is how I established who was responsible for the mess. Sorry I don't have a link to the document but it is called 'Ofcom - Cross-Platform Switching - EMP Back-End Process Use Cases' and goes through various switching scenarios.
My move to Origin has been a disaster in more ways than that, though. My line now connects at only 50% of the speed it did when with Plusnet. On top of that I've experienced periods of several hours when my router could not be logged in at all, resulting in no internet, even though the ADSL was connected. Sometimes when it is 'working' the internet speed (tested with Think Broadband) is as low as 300kb/s on a line capable of 12Mb/s, making video watching utterly impossible.
Origin have not responded to my e-mail complaint either and phoning them is a nightmare (though not quite as bad as with Plusnet).

In reply to a post by Oldjim:

It should be £30 which is a cease charge and can be levied when moving from BT to LLU

That was what it was reported to be when I left Plusnet, but the "new" charge is def £50.

Apparently it only costs Plusnet £11 plus VAT, so £50 is crazy!

In reply to a post by MatHal:

I abandoned the move to Sky and went to Origin instead.

Looks like what I shall end up doing.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

Isn't any move classed as a migration?

I thought so.

In reply to a post by Oldjim:

It does seem that only Plusnet do it as I haven't heard of others complaining

This is my experience and the reason for my question/thread.

I am surprised Ofcom don't do anything about it! Mind you I shouldn't be surprised given that Ofcom never seem to do anything.

In reply to a post by MatHal:

Origin have not responded to my e-mail complaint either and phoning them is a nightmare (though not quite as bad as with Plusnet).

They seem to respond to Twitter, but then you still have to make do with the level 2 techs who would drag their feet (if they hadn't already worn away by previous years of drag-age!).

Amazingly they have no customer accessible ticket system so you have no idea how things are, or generally aren't progressing.

Shame, as when my parents switched over about a year ago their customer service was much better than now (and amazing cf plusnet). Guess that is the case with all these cheap ISPs, they grow faster than their backroom support teams.

If you are finding a drop in speed try changing the dns on the device/router to 8.8.8.8. It can make all the difference, and can always be changed back if need be...

PlusNet "Cessation charge"

It's £30 for residential customers and £25 for business customers (inclusive of VAT).

The good news is, there's no charge if you move to another broadband service that also uses a BT line for its network.

And for the phone line itself they state LLU transfers are free as well under "Connection charges and other charges for PlusNet Phone services" so they don't seem to be following their own published charges.

my acount details still shows £30

A cease and re-provide is not a LLU transfer. Plusnet have no control over whether the gaining provider does it the right way. If they do it the wrong way Plusnet is hit with a charge - only fair that they recover the cost.

This thread is confusing .

The OP is considering moving from Sky to Plusnet, not leaving Plusnet. Nothing to do with the Plusnet Cease fee.

This £50 appears to be the advertised Plusnet connection charge for Unlimited ADSL2+ with no annual contract. I.e. monthly contract, no minimum term. Chargable even on a BTW-BTW migration. See the final entry on the packages list.

it is and I totally missed that - so why was it posted here rather than in the Sky forum

Many reasons, but one is that Plusnet are levying the charge

You mean the one which is £50 activation fee for fibre when taken without a phone package - not exactly hidden is it and has nothing whatsoever to do with moving from Sky

And it is a connection charge that many others also charge. And as was said it has nothing to do with moving from Sky - same charge would be applied no matter who the losing ISP was. The original post is a little confusing and I think that confusion caused this rabbit hole (which I added to).

In reply to a post by jelv:

A cease and re-provide is not a LLU transfer. Plusnet have no control over whether the gaining provider does it the right way. If they do it the wrong way Plusnet is hit with a charge - only fair that they recover the cost.

Equally the customer has no way of verifying whether the gaining provider did process the migration "the wrong way", or whether Plusnet's notoriously flaky systems are adding the charge in error.

That's a disconnection fee rather than a connection fee though isn't it?

In reply to a post by hk11:

That's a disconnection fee rather than a connection fee though isn't it?

Yes, but that has been agreed to be confusion. Your £50 appears to be:-

from £23.99 a month
for the first 12 months

from £31.48 a month thereafter

No annual contract

£50.00 activation fee applies

Unlimited 17Mbps. Link, seventh package down.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 25-Oct-17 19:00:43)

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Incorrect, its classed as a migration, only if gaining provider screws up ordering does a cease charge get raised and down to gaining provider to admit their mistake internally and swallow the charge.

BT Wholesale do charge for when a service leaves their network and goes to an LLU operator in certain instances. Equal to a cease fee. They consider the service as ceasing with them regardless of how that happens by a cease request or migration.

Edit: Added clarification.

Matt

Edited by uno (Wed 25-Oct-17 19:40:03)

And Ofcom is happy with that?

That's probably something you need to ask them.

This seemed quite interesting with their view on cease fees.

Matt

Yes, nicely complicated by early on saying they will take notice of their own Guidance LOL. However, wrt moving from LLU MPF to WLR3 we seem to have the following Openreach charges that BT Wholesale may incur:-

Supply of new line - Per line using previously stopped LLU MPF line 01/04/2016 29.68
and
Supply of new line - Per line using previously stopped LLU MPF line when Simultaneously Provided with SMPF 01/04/2016 0.00

Unless I'm grossly mis-reading that.

Where ADSLx provision comes into it I don't know as I can only see fibre services in the Openreach Price List.

I get the impression of Plusnet maximising what they can charge, based on what they might be charged, whether or not they are in fact so charged.

Or Plusnet simply not even trying to do Simultaneous Provides.

The seems to OK what Plusnet are doing.

Cease charges

25. A cease charge is a charge that may be made to consumers where they cease to receive a service from a provider. It is usually a charge made to CPs at the wholesale level and which they pass on to the consumer, and is usually charged separately to any ETC.

26. In line with the guidance set out above, Ofcom is likely to continue to consider that terms relating to any cease charge are more likely fair where they provide only for:

26.1. the recovery of the costs (e.g. wholesale costs) the CP incurs directly as a result of a cessation of service; and

26.2. these costs are not recovered via another charge (such as an ETC).

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Your £50 appears to be:-

Thanks. Maybe I pressed the wrong button somewhere?

It's quite easy to go wrong when the website redirects rather than opens a new window for chat for example!

Edit - It actually appears to be this clause that is being invoked, as I hinted at in my original post :-

"- Need a new line? If you don't have a line (or for those with a cable one or, in a few other cases), it's £49.99 � you'll be told before you commit."

So despite my having the same line/length of copper I had when I was with them over 12 months ago, Plusnet want to charge me £50 for Openreach swapping a jumper?

Edited by hk11 (Wed 25-Oct-17 22:48:32)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Or Plusnet simply not even trying to do Simultaneous Provides.

I wonder if anyone has figures on how many moves are actually cocked up? My last move from EE to Plusnet resulted in a loss of service for several days and no one owned up or seemed to care.

In reply to a post by hk11:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Your £50 appears to be:-

Thanks. Maybe I pressed the wrong button somewhere?

It's quite easy to go wrong when the website redirects rather than opens a new window for chat for example!

Edit - It actually appears to be this clause that is being invoked, as I hinted at in my original post :-

"- Need a new line? If you don't have a line (or for those with a cable one or, in a few other cases), it's £49.99 � you'll be told before you commit."

So despite my having the same line/length of copper I had when I was with them over 12 months ago, Plusnet want to charge me £50 for Openreach swapping a jumper?

Openreach want to charge Plusnet that - usually because someone else has taken the line at the DP/cab or at the exchange

It's a rip off - I recall a time when a start of a stopped line was free, now it's £15! (I used to do them on BTW all day long at Plusnet)

But moving a line back to WLR3 from MPF, is that classed as stopping the line in the process? Or for this purpose does a line moved to LLU MPF become classed as stopped? Or is this just a red herring that I have posted in ignorance of precisely how lines are handled between CPs, BTW, MPF LLU providers and Openreach?

I continue to be confused about WLR3 in general. Yes, it is an Openreach product, not BT Wholesale, and all CPs seem to report faults direct to Openreach, but whereas LLU operators clearly order the line from Openreach, do the BT Wholesale based CPs do that, or do they order from BTW? I have asked before, but never had a straight definitive answer.

It just puts customers off changing ISPs.

Not all ISPs seem to pass these charges on though, which is why I am considering Origin.

Alas I don't think a straight answer will ever be forthcoming.

Perhaps no one knows for sure.

Update:-

Offer extended to today, so I took the plung and found the fee had gone again.

With the £50 cash back it worked out the same as Origin and although I like to give new ISPs a chance; I couldn't find out enough about them.

I hope I have made the right move.