Right, I see it now! I think it was more the order of the sentence than the position of "only".

My re-write is:

Old:
"In fact they will only offer fibre in exchanges where there is fibre and they have no LLU presence, so as to avoid offering Sky Connect (BT Wholesale)"

New:
"In fact in exchanges where there is fibre and Sky have no LLU presence, Sky will only offer fibre so as to avoid offering Sky Connect (BT Wholesale)"

Is it not possible for Sky to have backhaul at an exchange where they do not have an LLU presence? Perhaps unlikely but presumably technically possible?

Edited by Oliver341 (Thu 02-Jul-15 17:38:22)

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

Is it not possible for Sky to have backhaul at an exchange where they do not have an LLU presence? Perhaps unlikely but presumably technically possible?

I think that is what Zen LLU is. As I read the vague statements a while ago about not having LLU kit but using their own network via POPs, Zen appear to use BT Wholesale tails and take a feed off those at the exchange. Similar to the TTB resellers (or their backhaul providers) who use TalkTalk tails but not TTB backhaul.

As far as I know Sky don't do that anywhere.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

As far as I know Sky don't do that anywhere.

Yep, neither do I.

But if there is a rural BDUK fibre-enabled exchange feeding into a WBC-enabled exchange without a Sky LLU presence, perhaps Sky might consider adding backhaul to that exchange to support fibre, even though they have no interest in providing LLU at the WBC-enabled exchange.

That would amount to BT Wholesale helping Sky to compete with them. Very unlikely. No doubt they would be welcome to take WBMC - BTW probably couldn't refuse that, but it would have the same drawback as Sky Connect. Puny MSIL provision.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

That would amount to BT Wholesale helping Sky to compete with them.

Why? I'm not suggesting Sky would use WBC, I'm suggesting Sky would use their own backhaul, with or without an LLU presence at the head-end exchange.

by LLU I meant backhaul as of course on FTTC they use openreach equipment.

It would be somewhat odd for sky to only have backhaul since thats the bulk of the LLU expense, if the backhaul exists I would guess the dslams also exist for adsl.

Yeah. It's probably hypothetical anyway, since there are probably no fibre headend exchanges which don't have Sky LLU (and therefore backhaul) already.

You've quoted the first part of my post, but ignored it in your reply .

They can only use their own backhaul from an exchange by either installing an MSAN, (and GEA link cable), i.e. LLU, or by using someone else's MSAN/GEA link.

That means a choice of BT Wholesale, TalkTalk Business or Vodafone (C & W) MSAN/link. Yeah - really?

It's LLU plus the GEA link or nothing. They cannot get from the Openreach GEA panel direct to their backhaul.

Ah right, I did not know that an ISP could not install backhaul into an exchange without also installing an MSAN there. Perhaps if a headend exchange has no Sky LLU, there will be a few upgraded to support the rural fibre-enabled exchanges (although that might not be economically worth it for Sky).

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

But if there is a rural BDUK fibre-enabled exchange feeding into a WBC-enabled exchange without a Sky LLU presence, perhaps Sky might consider adding backhaul to that exchange to support fibre, even though they have no interest in providing LLU at the WBC-enabled exchange.

On a re-read of this I understand a little better what you are saying, but basically the same applies. It can't be done.

Let's label the BDUK-enabled exchange "A". You seem to be saying it need not be WBC-enabled, as the fibre links would go to the WBC-enabled exchange "B". Exchange B is by definition both fibre-enabled and WBC enabled.

You surmise that exchange B may not be Sky LLU'ed, but that Sky might add backhaul to exchange A. That just doesn't make sense.

First, as explained, they cannot add backhaul to exchange A without either LLU'ing it or using some other CP's MSAN;

second there would be no point, as the fibre isn't present there;

third, over time most such exchanges are likely to close down and be completely routed to exchange B rather than upgraded by BTW;

fourth, at exchange B the same applies as my first point.

The only thing that would make sense would be for Sky to LLU exchange B, thus picking up A + B + almost certainly some other small ones. Fibre through B and compulsory phone through A/other. Just as they do now.