In reply to a post by BatBoy:

The MER network overlay uses a different VCI/VPI to the PPPoA encapsulation. Both exist simultaneously.

The userid and password are generated automatically by the router - I can't see how the call centre can provide the information?

Presumably the back end servers know what the username and password is otherwise why bother having them? And if that's the case then presumably it could be feasible to write something that gives the user the password

The fact that there are third party websites that can create the password for you would suggest it would not be beyond Sky to do the same?

Sky don't want to make it easy as if someone rings up with a fault the people at the call centre can talk them through the router pages easily as they have sky's interface and all look the same. If other routers are used then the call centre staff would need more knowledge and that does not fit with scripted cheap labour and therefore would affect Sky's support model.

However, it does seem Sky (and Be) are fine relatively OK with using your own kit as long as you plug their router in if you call up for support - if you don't plug theirs in then they can't talk you through checking things on your router as there are so many different router interfaces out there that it makes it too complex.

There are many Sky Customers who use their own routers. I frequent another forum where this topic is discussed a lot. Recently the site that is used to extract the log in details from Sky routers went down and it has generated a huge number of posts. This is now being resolved.

As for the price, it has been mentioned and discussed a large amount elsewhere on the Internet. The Sagem 2504N was launched last July/August. The price was known about at this time.

If you are a new customer who has been supplied the Sagem 2504N, then you will not be charged for a replacement at present as it will still be under warranty (12 months). However, if you have any of the other Sky routers and wish to have the new Sagem 2504N then you will need to pay the £35 whether or not your router is under warranty.

As for the log in details, these are unique to each and every Sky router, not the Customer. A router becomes associated with your account as it is used on your telephone line, but another working Sky router could easily be used instead.

Annoyingly, when you call Sky, the people in the call centre can see the router's log in details on their screens. However they are forbidden from revealing this information. If they do reveal it, they face disciplinary action and could be sacked.

Getting back to the price of routers, if you received another Sky router, but joined within the last 12 months, you are still under warranty. A replacement router would be free, but you will receive one of the following:

Sagem 2504
D-Link 2640S
Netgear DG934G
Sagem 2304n (WiFi = 72mb/s)

Unless noted, they are all WiFi g (54mb/s). The Sagem 2304n has a stronger signal, but IMHO the GUI is incredibly slow.

Personally speaking I do use my own router and make use of the benefits that this provides (300mb/s WiFi on both 2.4 & 5 GHz channels, 1Gbit LAN, USB ports for sharing drives, better GUI & tools).

Finally there are steps being made by Sky which could make things difficult for people to use their own routers in the future. Currently Sky are using both MER & PPPoA on the broadband connections. Their implementation of MER is different from the recognised standard and this could make it difficult, but not impossible, in future. However this should be discussed in another thread and is being discussed heavily elsewhere on the Internet.

In reply to a post by Kiggs:

On another note, will Sky need to send out replacements due to their migration to MER or will they keep PPPoA up simultaneously - not sure if the NETGEAR DG934 supports the new authentication method.

As has been pointed out, the original Sky router (Netgear DG834GT) recently had a firmware update. This now allows it to support WPA-PSK, and possibly WPA2-PSK, over the WiFi and MER.

It is possible that the roll-out of this firmware was halted as there are many associated problems.

There is a new firmware due for release for the Netgear DG934G. This is still under development with Netgear though. There may be some Sky employees testing it, but I cannot confirm this as I do not know.

For the present, not all the exchanges support both MER & PPPoA, so both systems are currently in use.

Both boxes are supplied by Sky. They are owned by the user from day 1 and have a 12 month warranty like all other products. That's the point, surely?

One could actually try using the small claims court as there is a 6 year something-or-other to do with warranties or just get a MAC and leave or spend little money on a new router.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

Both boxes are supplied by Sky. They are owned by the user from day 1 and have a 12 month warranty like all other products. That's the point, surely?

One could actually try using the small claims court as there is a 6 year something-or-other to do with warranties or just get a MAC and leave or spend little money on a new router.

Netgear offer a 2yr warrantee don't they ? I think there are some others too,

In reply to a post by broadband66:

Both boxes are supplied by Sky. They are owned by the user from day 1 and have a 12 month warranty like all other products. That's the point, surely?

All well and good, except with every other ISP in the UK I am not forced to buy a replacement router from said ISP in order to connect to their service, I am free to buy a Netgear, Belkin or whatever else. Sky specifically make it difficult for customers to use third party routers by withholding PPPoA passwords and using non RFC compliant MER protocols. Again, this is a unique approach, presumably to create themselves a captive market for replacement routers. The price for replacement routers isn't even quoted on their website, essentially when you sign up to Sky Broadband you accept that you have to write Sky a blank cheque in the event of an out of warranty router failure.

My attitude is such that each ISP can and does operate with their own rules. Customers or potential customers should have the knowledge to make informed decisions about the suitability of an ISP.

If Sky want to insist that customers must use their equipment the cost of any replacement should be part of that knowledge and for many £35 would not be a deal breaker I reckon.

As I see it the bigger issue now that so many are full LLU the implications of moving are far different from the old MAC system, so even more important that Sky firms up the policy when a replacement is needed. To me £35 is more than comparable with the open market but without a firm policy that could double it if they so wanted I suppose so it is not unreasonable to want to see a policy on this, perhaps routers provided on a cost plus basis.

Those that on principle want to use a router of choice will no doubt do so with a blind eye turned, or find a different ISP

Presumably Sky's 'Unlimited' offering is aimed at a slightly more advanced consumer rather than say, BT's Broadband product - due to its lack of cap. This should infer that the end-user would want to use their own router, if they so chose and not be essentially forced into buying what ever they offer at the time.

Worth forwarding this thread onto [email protected] ?

With everyone knowing their T&Cs then you pays your money and takes your choice!

Sky users pay sod all for an unlimited connection and complain when having to spend a few quid on replacement kit.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

Sky users pay sod all for an unlimited connection and complain when having to spend a few quid on replacement kit.

A few quid I don't mind paying. An unspecified amount of Sky's choosing is quite another matter.