Sky to AAISP - expected issues?

Been with Sky for a while now, always been happy with their service, but over the last few weeks, the service has deteriorated beyond acceptable.

We get random yet frequent line drops. No rhyme nor reason, the router just loses sync but immediately reconnects. These disconnects can be an hour apart, or fifteen hours.

I have tried 4 different routers - the 'white' Sky supplied one, a Netgear one, a second Sagem Sky router and now a Zyxel 660HW. All have experienced the same issue.

I have gone through the usual 'tests' with Sky to no avail, finally resorting these last 24 hours to disconnecting our voice phone and having the router plugged directly into the BT master socket (NTE5 faceplate removed)

The problem still remains, so it is clearly a fault with the line.

I have become more and more frustrated with Sky as they insist the fault lies within my premises, despite the fact we only have one phone connected (a DECT cordless) and no other equipment (no Sky box, no FAX, no alarm, nothing) I have even unwired the original extension sockets throughout the house so there is nothing else connected to the NTE5.

Still every time I call Sky with the SAME issue, they expect me to go through the basic diagnostics. I am at my wits end with them as NOTHING gets done.

I have finally resolved myself to the fact that I need to migrate away from Sky, and, as a previous AAISP customer, I'm keen to take up their service again.

Apart from the cost of migrating LLU to AAISP, are there any other pitfalls I can expect in respect of the 'technical' aspect of my line? I'm not going to get the speed I do with Sky, but I am going to get the customer service that AAISP are renowned for.

Thanks in advance.

In reply to a post by tx2online:

Been with Sky for a while now, always been happy with their service, but over the last few weeks, the service has deteriorated beyond acceptable.

We get random yet frequent line drops. No rhyme nor reason, the router just loses sync but immediately reconnects. These disconnects can be an hour apart, or fifteen hours.

I have tried 4 different routers - the 'white' Sky supplied one, a Netgear one, a second Sagem Sky router and now a Zyxel 660HW. All have experienced the same issue.

I have gone through the usual 'tests' with Sky to no avail, finally resorting these last 24 hours to disconnecting our voice phone and having the router plugged directly into the BT master socket (NTE5 faceplate removed)

The problem still remains, so it is clearly a fault with the line.

Clearly it's noise on the line - probably your end.

Noise on the line - my end?

Can you enlarge on your 'diagnosis', bearing in mind everything else was removed from the line and I was plugged straight into the BT 'test' socket.

AIUI, anything 'past' that socket is BT and nothing to do with me, so I don't get the "my end" part of your statement.

After you enlarge on it "clearly" being a line fault. Evidence?

The evidence is that I have tried four different routers; I have unwired all extensions in the house; I have no other comms equipment connected to the phone line; the current router is connected directly to the BT 'test' socket at the rear of the NTE5 faceplate which has been removed. The problem remains.

What more evidence did you require?

Edited by tx2online (Wed 27-May-09 00:03:15)

Incidentally, it just disconnected again... no phone connected, just a Zyxel 660HW router directly into the BT master socket.

That's a distinct lack of evidence. You only seem to have ruled out a router fault.

When do the disconnections happen, any particular time? Day or night?
Does the noise margin fluctuate?
What are the line stats reported by the router?
Do the line stats change when you use the test socket?
What package are you on?
Are you certain all your extensions are wired to the faceplate?
Are all your extensions filtered?
How can you have sky without a sky box connected to the phone line?

That sort of thing

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

That's a distinct lack of evidence. You only seem to have ruled out a router fault.

When do the disconnections happen, any particular time? Day or night?
Does the noise margin fluctuate?
What are the line stats reported by the router?
Do the line stats change when you use the test socket?
What package are you on?
Are you certain all your extensions are wired to the faceplate?
Are all your extensions filtered?
How can you have sky without a sky box connected to the phone line?

That sort of thing

The disconnections occur randomly, there is no pattern that I can identify. I've already mentioned that.

I haven't checked or noted the noise margin. You assume I have the technical ability to do so. Let's assume I haven't, the stance that most ISP Help Desks will take. I haven't been asked to yet when contacting Sky.

I have done all that my ISP has asked, I can do no more to improve my lot. If the noise on my line is a problem given I am now using the BT master socket with nothing else wired in, then that is not anything I can improve upon.

I am on the Sky Max package (?) 16mb LLU

We do not use the extensions which were previously wired into the master socket. We have a DECT phone with 3 satellite handsets, we only require the base unit to have a comms connection. The extension wiring has been removed from the NTE5.

The router is ordinarily connected via its own phone lead into an RJ11 socket which in turn is connected to the master socket by a short run of CAT5, which is punched down in the back of the filtered NTE5. For the purpose of testing, the router has been plugged directly into the socket, bypassing the CAT5 run.

We are not obliged to have our Sky satellite box connected to the phone system, therefore it isn't and hasn't been for a long while.

As for that being a distinct lack of evidence, I completely disagree. I have ruled out everything within my premises that it could have been; yes to the point of even trying 4 routers.

What else, within the constraints I have as a consumer, could I have done?

In my opinion, the fault is clearly with the line. I have done all that is necessary for me to do to prove the fault cannot possibly be within my premises.

As a footnote, Sky had already acknowledged errors on my line, but have failed to take the matter any further or notify me of the outcome of an 'investigation' they were going to run.

Notwithstanding then, can you answer my original question?

In reply to a post by tx2online:

Notwithstanding then, can you answer my original question?

For that, you'll need your router stats.

Why are you running the Zyxel?
What router did Sky give you?

i'd just sign up to aaisp... and have them kick bt until they fix it...

I think the move to AAISP should do the trick or at least help you get to the bottom of the problem. Don't know if you have seen this statement on the AAISP website:

"If you are migrating your service to us, even though you know you have a problem with your line, we'll take on the fault. We'll tackle the problem and get it fixed within one month. If we don't then you can migrate away and owe us nothing for your migration to us and your service charges for that month."

So, you have nothing to lose, on the face of it.

Hi txt2online,

4 routers and plugging in to the 'Test' socket - assuming you changed the filter and the RJ11 cable too, there isn't much more you can do to prove it's not your end at fault.

If you did move to us, then we'll do our best to get this resolved. Our line monitoring (which you'll have access to) will clearly show the drops, and may help find patterns in them (eg time of day etc), if BT Wholesale are still insistent that the fault is at your end, then we have a 'test router' which is a router/face plate/phone combination that is known to work - and so this will be something else to prove the fault being in BT's realm...

If you decide to move, email support a link to this thread and we'll monitor and act.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

In reply to a post by tx2online:

Notwithstanding then, can you answer my original question?

For that, you'll need your router stats.

Why are you running the Zyxel?
What router did Sky give you?

I'm running a Zyxel to prove out that the router(s) I've tried aren't at fault - 4 of them.

Sky suggested sending me a replacement for their original, but the replacement Sagem 'died' after about 2 days.

I don't see what difference it makes which router I run. I'm more than capable of configuring a router to connect, and did so to prove the fault didn't lie in that area.

In reply to a post by andrewhearn:

Hi txt2online,

4 routers and plugging in to the 'Test' socket - assuming you changed the filter and the RJ11 cable too, there isn't much more you can do to prove it's not your end at fault.

If you did move to us, then we'll do our best to get this resolved. Our line monitoring (which you'll have access to) will clearly show the drops, and may help find patterns in them (eg time of day etc), if BT Wholesale are still insistent that the fault is at your end, then we have a 'test router' which is a router/face plate/phone combination that is known to work - and so this will be something else to prove the fault being in BT's realm...

If you decide to move, email support a link to this thread and we'll monitor and act.

Initially, I had no filters on the line as I only had the router connected directly into the socket behind the NTE5 faceplate; that is what sky told me to do.

I have also had the router connected to the same socket but via a 'dongle' filter (brand new, never been used)

Not a lot else I can do, as you say.

Just been onto Sky who are capping the line at 10meg to see if a speed decrease helps - just have to wait and see.

Either way, I hope to migrate to AAISP in the not too distant future as I've had enough of Sky to be honest.

you don't happen to have a treadmill by any chance or any other high powered device which is capable of affecting the noise margin? (or your neighbours' devices if you live in a semi or a flat). Remember there are about a zillion electrical devices out there which can affect your noise margiun. In my last house, every time the treadmill was used the noise margin shot up causing my router to disconnect and bringing my IP profile down to 256kbps...irrespective of which router i used or whether i was connected to the test socket or not. Only solution was to turn off the router whilst running

Edited by deleted (Wed 27-May-09 16:58:31)

In reply to a post by tx2online:

I don't see what difference it makes which router I run.

Some are more suited to the DSLAM than others. That's why Sky supply ones they know work well with their service.
To me, it's odd that you sound like you know what you're doing, but you're unwilling to help yourself.

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

you don't happen to have a treadmill by any chance or any other high powered device which is capable of affecting the noise margin?

No such equipment exists in this or neighbouring properties.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

In reply to a post by tx2online:

I don't see what difference it makes which router I run.

Some are more suited to the DSLAM than others. That's why Sky supply ones they know work well with their service.
To me, it's odd that you sound like you know what you're doing, but you're unwilling to help yourself.

You have taken my reply concerning routers out of context - it doesn't matter which router I had in respect that each one - including those from Sky - suffered the same symptoms.

By using a different one each time (in the case of 3) I was able to rule out the router(s) as being at fault quite simply because the fault occurred across all brands.

As for being unwilling to help myself - unwiring extensions, purchasing alternative routers, disconnecting my home phone for 36 hours etc etc is quite an adequate response by the consumer. Not to mention countless hours on the phone to Sky.

I can't help feeling you are being deliberately obstructive with your comments. Whilst they may have some validity for those who wish to fully investigate connection issues, what I have done to prove the fault does not lie within my premises cannot be argued as unsatisfactory by any means.

As a consumer, you cannot possibly argue that I have not done enough to prove the fault out, and yes, whilst I am technically brilliant (having an impressive IT career spanning 2 decades), when I pay an ISP to provide me with a service, I will only go so far to assist them with ensuring that they do, which in this case is a lot further than your average Joe Public.

This is most certainly not a case of not helping myself, this is a case of not being able to do anything further to assist the ISP in question.

Measuring line noise et al on the line is not something your average consumer ISP would ever ask you to do, and thus I haven't done it, moreso as I KNOW there is nothing further within the premises that I could do to influence such. The problem is out there, on the line somewhere, not within my premises. It is up to Sky to measure the line, deal with any issues and resolve them.

Seeing no way in which I could possibly assist an ISP with less than impressive technical support as Sky by proving such information, the rest is quite simply their problem.

If they don't resolve it, then my next move is to either complain at the highest level, or move to a competent ISP such as AAISP who have the technical and commercial ability to resolve the matter.

My original (now elaborated) question of course still stands.

Are there any issues (perhaps a 'settling in' period in respect of line speed etc) that one could expect to experience when moving an ADSL service from LLU to an ISP such as AAISP who is not LLU?

You're joking of course, I trust you're enjoying this as much as I am.

Any chance of you posting some line stats including noise margin over a 24 hour period - or even one in the day and one at night?

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

You're joking of course, I trust you're enjoying this as much as I am.

Any chance of you posting some line stats including noise margin over a 24 hour period - or even one in the day and one at night?

No, I 'm not joking, nor am I "enjoying" a poor ADSL service or indeed, this forum, given the reason I had cause to post.

FWIW, at the time of posting, basic line stats as provided by the Zyxel 660HW are :

noise margin downstream: 15 db
output power upstream: 19 db
attenuation downstream: 25 db

noise margin upstream: 21 db
output power downstream: 12 db
attenuation upstream: 17 db

Glean from that what you will.

I may have missed this information but have you said what the upstream/downstream sync rates are? This will help give a complete picture to your stats.

In reply to a post by john2007:

I may have missed this information but have you said what the upstream/downstream sync rates are? This will help give a complete picture to your stats.

Since this thread started, Sky have 'capped' me (at my request) down to circa 10mb downstream.

My line has not disconnected since this was done, but I do have fingers crossed as I have experienced this before - no disconnects for several hours (I think 95 was the record) followed by several within just a few.

Sky today advised me to "reset the router at frequent intervals to refresh it"... hmmm.

Anyway, current router stats are :

Upstream Speed: 574 kbps
Downstream Speed: 9984 kbps

Prior to that, and from memory, I had circa 14mb down, 676kbps up.

Incidentally, I apologise for turning an AAISP forum into a Sky one! Certainly not intended as my initial question was primarily aimed at migration concerns, my issue with Sky being a background as to why I was contemplating the move.

Edited by tx2online (Wed 27-May-09 22:32:13)

One thing you can do and AA may be able to help with this, is a bin plot to see if the interference if that is what is, is at a specific range of frequencies.

Things like a flourescent lamp can cause RF noise, and appear to function perfectly correctly, finding these sorts of noise sources is complex and expensive, and as the line seems to be running at over 8Meg I doubt BT will entertain much in the way of fault resolution.

The stats are useful as they sometimes indicate the type of line problem or likely cause - and the line is the same regardless of whether you are using Sky, AAISP, or any other (ADSL based) ISP.

In this case the stats don't help (at least they don't help me).

Edited by deleted (Wed 27-May-09 23:00:09)

Your current router stats, which IMHO unfortunately had to be drawn out of you like a decayed tooth and you provided in dribs and drabs, would indicate that your line is healthy.

You have plenty of downstream noise margin at your current sync speed of 10 Meg.

Reducing your noise margin to a target 6 dB might gain you about 3 Meg, probably in line with what you were getting before you were 'capped', but we will never know the stats at that time.

Post deleted by tx2online

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

One thing you can do and AA may be able to help with this, is a bin plot to see if the interference if that is what is, is at a specific range of frequencies.

Things like a flourescent lamp can cause RF noise, and appear to function perfectly correctly, finding these sorts of noise sources is complex and expensive, and as the line seems to be running at over 8Meg I doubt BT will entertain much in the way of fault resolution.

We have no fluorescent lights in the house, and the router and where it connects to the master socket are 'isolated' in a storage cupboard away from any noticeable forms of interference. This cupboard is on an outside wall so not adjacent to any neighbouring interference by some 30' or more.

The power to the router is via a UPS which is via a surge protector.

Hi,

This may help although it is rather random. The bell wire in house telephone wiring is these days generally redundant. However, it is susceptible to picking up interference from various sources, such as those previously mentioned. In my case I am a radio ham and when I transmit on certain frequencies I manage to kill the router, which only resets when I stop transmitting.

Your fault is typical of a random event such as this. Maybe there is a radio ham near you or a cb'er.(look for aerials in the garden). If there is ask him to transmit and see if your router crashes.

It may be useful to see if it happens at certain times of the day i.e after 6pm or during the normal working day. This could indicate a business nearby causing the problem, such as arc welding.

Have a look on the web for extension wiring and this way you can identify the "bell wire". This can be disconnected providing you don't have a really old style telephone. Having said this, you say the problem occurs when the router is connected to the BT master socket. I presume this means with the front plate removed. The BT master socket has an external socket which is connected to the house extn wiring. If you remove this, you disconnect the internal house wiring. Once the front plate is removed you will see another socket, this is directly connected to the BT incoming line. This is where you need to test. (Sorry if that's teaching you to suck eggs)

Best of luck

Paul

In reply to a post by tx2online:

The power to the router is via a UPS which is via a surge protector.

A UPS contains electronics (rectifier, inverter) that are likely sources of RF interference. Try it without that.

You don't put the ADSL through the surge protector do you ?

This is a discussion forum, where different contributors will have different slants on the subject matter and may chuck in their pennyworth. You cannot channel or prescribe the replies. Problems are better solved by many varied minds attacking it.

I was chucking in my pennyworth on topic to question your assertion that "it is clearly a fault with the line".

Previously you demanded that we assume that you were unable to obtain the router stats when clearly you were.

Less technically minded "consumers" than you have been able to get and post their router stats here in order to help others help them.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

This is a discussion forum, where different contributors will have different slants on the subject matter and may chuck in their pennyworth. You cannot channel or prescribe the replies. Problems are better solved by many varied minds attacking it.

I was chucking in my pennyworth on topic to question your assertion that "it is clearly a fault with the line".

Previously you demanded that we assume that you were unable to obtain the router stats when clearly you were.

Less technically minded "consumers" than you have been able to get and post their router stats here in order to help others help them.

Of course, that I wasn't actually posting concerning the state of my line has has been overlooked by you. It was pointless posting stats (as has been proven because they are in actual fact OK) as that was not the matter I was seeking advice on.

Pressed on the matter, I posted them, and out of courtesy, responded to questions concerning the "clear fault on my line".

There is a fault on the line, Sky have acknowledged it, and I am waiting to hear back from them.

In the absence of testing equipment, but with the knowledge I have, I was satisfied the fault was on the line as I had eliminated everything I possibly could as an end user. There was absolutely no point posting stats as having previously observed them, it appeared nothing had changed. I didn't hide the fact I could obtain the stats, merely asked it be presumed I couldn't.

As an IT Technician of many years standing, I am fully aware of ensuring all info is to hand when asking a question, but my question was not "what shall I do with my line", it was "will I experience any issues moving from LLU to non-LLU", as I have no experience of this.

Current circumstances were applied as background.

You'll note I deleted my initial reply to you, as I felt that despite your weak attempt at belittling me, life really is too short to argue with those who feel they have to 'insult' to make a point.

I am also very aware how forums work, having used both Internet based and Usenet for more years than I can remember. I appreciate you have an opinion, but one that is made personal in the manner that yours was does nothing for your integrity. Chucking a valid "pennyworth" in and being rude to someone are poles apart - I wasn't rude to you, please do not be rude to me.

I trust that clarifies my view on the matter clearly enough?

In reply to a post by yarwell:

In reply to a post by tx2online:

The power to the router is via a UPS which is via a surge protector.

A UPS contains electronics (rectifier, inverter) that are likely sources of RF interference. Try it without that.

You don't put the ADSL through the surge protector do you ?

The router has been plugged both into a UPS and a standard 3 pin socket, neither made any difference. The ADSL is not put through the surge protector, no.

In reply to a post by pau11:

Hi,

This may help although it is rather random. The bell wire in house telephone wiring is these days generally redundant. However, it is susceptible to picking up interference from various sources, such as those previously mentioned. In my case I am a radio ham and when I transmit on certain frequencies I manage to kill the router, which only resets when I stop transmitting.

Your fault is typical of a random event such as this. Maybe there is a radio ham near you or a cb'er.(look for aerials in the garden). If there is ask him to transmit and see if your router crashes.

It may be useful to see if it happens at certain times of the day i.e after 6pm or during the normal working day. This could indicate a business nearby causing the problem, such as arc welding.

Have a look on the web for extension wiring and this way you can identify the "bell wire". This can be disconnected providing you don't have a really old style telephone. Having said this, you say the problem occurs when the router is connected to the BT master socket. I presume this means with the front plate removed. The BT master socket has an external socket which is connected to the house extn wiring. If you remove this, you disconnect the internal house wiring. Once the front plate is removed you will see another socket, this is directly connected to the BT incoming line. This is where you need to test. (Sorry if that's teaching you to suck eggs)

Best of luck

Paul

Thanks for the input, but I'm not actually looking to troubleshoot the line.

However, to respond - the extensions in the house have been disconnected from the main socket, so there is no physical connection with the wiring and the router.

We do have a radio ham across the road; he is running on 144mhz via a di-pole slung across his back garden which is further from me still. He runs QRP. The problem has occurred at 3 - 4am in the morning, and given that the gentleman in question works nights at our local Asda, I very much doubt his kit is to blame. As a former Class A myself, I have been to his 'shack' in the past, and he appears to be running very clean.

There are also no small businesses nearby, we reside in a very residential area, and I would be surprised to see any arc welding going on; given the times when the router has lost sync, I would suggest something like this causing the problem is not the case.

In reply to a post by tx2online:

Thanks for the input, but I'm not actually looking to troubleshoot the line.

That's hardly surprising because you have already assumed, for no reason, that the line is at fault. Anything showing the fault is your end would be embarrassing for you and leave it up to you to fix.

However, evidence is starting to emerge that the problems occur at night when, no doubt you are aware, noise levels are at their highest - of course, you know why being a radio amateur?

I bet you even know what to do to collect data and analyse the problem.

Are you aware the sky TV box is often a source of RFI?

In reply to a post by tx2online:

There is a fault on the line, Sky have acknowledged it, and I am waiting to hear back from them.

Why believe them now when you didn't before :-

I have become more and more frustrated with Sky as they insist the fault lies within my premises

What evidence do you have that they are now telling the truth?

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

In reply to a post by tx2online:

Thanks for the input, but I'm not actually looking to troubleshoot the line.

That's hardly surprising because you have already assumed, for no reason, that the line is at fault. Anything showing the fault is your end would be embarrassing for you and leave it up to you to fix.

However, evidence is starting to emerge that the problems occur at night when, no doubt you are aware, noise levels are at their highest - of course, you know why being a radio amateur?

I bet you even know what to do to collect data and analyse the problem.

Are you aware the sky TV box is often a source of RFI?

I can only summise that you are a troll as your line of questioning is clearly aimed at being antagonistic. As such I don't intend responding to such any further.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by tx2online:

There is a fault on the line, Sky have acknowledged it, and I am waiting to hear back from them.

Why believe them now when you didn't before :-

I have become more and more frustrated with Sky as they insist the fault lies within my premises

What evidence do you have that they are now telling the truth?

oh for goodness sake - what on earth is it with such ridiculous questioning???

I have done everything and more that I can reasonably do to prove the fault is not within my premises.

I wasn't asking for help with the connection; I am satisfied that there is nothing further I can do to resolve the matter, and that the fault exists beyond my premises.

Now I have performed all the 'tests' Sky require of me, they are satisfied the fault is not within the premises. It was not that I didn't believe them, I didn't agree with them - significantly different to what you infer.

I'm going to withdraw from this thread as despite there being a handful of helpful responses, there are 'one or two' whose clear intent it is to antagonise. I have far more constructive activities to engage myself in.

In reply to a post by tx2online:

I can only summise that you are a troll as your line of questioning is clearly aimed at being antagonistic. As such I don't intend responding to such any further.

Summise?

I am attempting to answer your question but you have so far provided insufficient details to allow anyone to help you.

You appear to be totally unaware of the potential for Sky boxes and DECT phones to generate RFI which would make your connection unstable. You obviously have an unstable connection as your ISP has pointed out but for some reason you find yourself unable to believe them.

As I have already posted, all you have done is show that there is no router fault, but you still haven't shown there isn't a noise fault and you are the only person able to do that.

In order to eliminate noise at your end, you should download the routestats-lite utility and run that for a couple of days to monitor your noise. It draws a graph for you. I'm sure it works with at least one of your routers and is available here: http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm#routerst...

It took me less than a minute to set it up and have it working.

In reply to a post by tx2online:

We do have a radio ham across the road; he is running on 144mhz via a di-pole slung across his back garden which is further from me still.

A dipole for the 144 - 146 Mhz 2 metre band is roughly 1 metre long. Not the sort of aerial you sling across a garden. If there is a wire aerial, possibly fed at the centre, then that too is a dipole aerial but for much lower frequencies. The sort of frequencies used by ADSL for example.

A directional 144 - 146 Mhz aerial is usually a yagi aerial, which would look like a much larger version of a UHF tv aerial.

Cheers!

GW4EYO ex GW8AOC