Broadband charge problem

I moved my broadband from BT to another supplier but a problem resulted in BT continuing to charge for the broadband.

I called BT a couple of days after my new broadband service started because I read online it was a good idea to inform BT that I had migrated out in case they continued to charge for the broadband service but it would appear my doing so may have caused this problem.

The last phone call to resolve the problem was on the 6th of March and after an hour the support person assured me it was now resolved and my next bill would contain the refund backdated to the 21st of January. This is the date my BT broadband ceased and the ADSL service from my new supplier started.

The call lasted for an hour because for a while the support person believed I was still receiving BT broadband service. Next he said my broadband had been cancelled but the cancellation had been cancelled. Finally he figured out his mistake and he confirmed I had migrated out. He apologised for his mistake and after speaking to his manager he said the billing problem was now resolved and when I asked about the refund being backdated to the 21st of January he confirmed it would be backdated to that date.

I have now received my latest BT bill and the refund backdates only to the 6th March.

Is it worth pursuing or are BT unlikely to give the money back?

You migrated on 21 Jan, but when did you give BT notice you were leaving? Asking for a MAC is not giving notice cuz you don't have to use it.

Did you use MAC to migrate?

It looks like BT has taken your call of 6 March as terminating the contract.

I don't remember all the contact I had with BT but it was about leaving. Are there specific leaving notice requirements?

The MAC was used to migrate.

Yes they have kept the money up to the 6th of March so it would appear they have done that.

In reference to www.productsandservices.bt.com/consumerProducts/dynamicmodules/page...:

Once we have provided the service, you may tell us to stop providing it at any time by giving us 30 days' notice. We will accept notice via a range of methods including phone, e-mail, online chat and in writing. You can contact us to give notice using any of the contact details set out on your last BT bill or any other means of contact we have given you, for that purpose. If you are switching to another provider through an approved process, the notice you must give us will be 14 days.

The 30/14 days notice is for the line. My line is still with BT.

Also, I am unable to find the BT broadband legals telling that requesting a MAC is not giving notice.

Please provide the link.

Actually, I misunderstood. The standard terms states it is applicable to my BT broadband service.

I had read something regarding notice from Ofcom but I can't find it. It said something like when switching telephone and broadband it's not unreasonable to apply a notice period but it also said it should be applicable to the time it took for such administration which I had thought wouldn't be much for a migration.

I don't know that it could take 14 days worth of administration. I thought it would take a few minutes but perhaps BT have made it 14 days as an aggregation of the migration process?

I spoke to cancellations on a number of occasions including explaining why I was leaving. This occurred before requesting the MAC and during the MAC request. I admit it's possible my contact wasn't considered notice unless I specifically stated I am giving notice of leaving. I don't remember what I said exactly but it's unlikely I used those words.

Would BT review recorded calls to decide notice of leaving? I doubt it. Perhaps a flag is enabled on the account during the call to cancellations after it's determined leaving notice was provided?

Do you know BT's procedure for recognising/accepting and recording notice of leaving?

No, my link is to the General Conditions which covers everything. Special conditions for phone are under Telephony.

Unless conditions explicitly state MAC request = notice then you cannnot make it so. After all as I said you may actually want to retain the service when you have MAC if you later do not use it.

Notice is a commercial condition over which OFCOM will have no jusisdiction.

I found this: http://consumers.ofcom.org.uk/codes-of-practice/

In particular Ofcom's Migration Code of Practice and General Condition 22. Here are relevant quotes:

Issue of MAC represents acknowledgement and agreement by LSP that its customer may be migrated to another broadband service provider

The customer�s request for a MAC does not represent a request to terminate the service. The LSP should not therefore disconnect the service upon request for, or issue, of a MAC

When the LSP is notified that a migration has taken place, the customer�s notice period (i.e. the date at which notice to discontinue service is taken for the purposes of calculating any outstanding subscription charges under the contract) will be taken to have commenced on the issue date of the MAC, or on the date of any prior notice to terminate, whichever is the earlier.

If the MAC validity period is passed without the LSP receiving notification of a migration request, the LSP must not terminate the current subscription, unless specifically requested to do so by the customer.

Upon completion of the migration the notice period commences on the issue date of the MAC!

I am not sure of the exact date but I know I was issued the MAC more than 14 days before the migration date.

BT should have backdated the refund to the 21st of January.

Can you explain in layman's terms?

I want to read the legals that say cannot make it so.

What date did you ask for MAC?
What date did the migration happen?
What date did you inform BT you wish to stop the contract with them for broadband?

I have tried to remember everything and now it actually became much clearer for the most part.

Notice of leaving: 4th January
MAC request: 4th January
Migration happened: 21st January
Informed BT of the migration success: 24th January

I had also given notice of leaving before the 4th of January but I don't remember if it was just the day before so the 3rd of January. It could have been the 2nd of January but I don't think it matters exactly. Anyway, on that day, I called BT cancellations and was offered a cheaper broadband package but I declined the offer and informed the BT cancellations lady I would be leaving. I asked if I was in contract or anything such existed that would prevent me from leaving without penalty. I was told I was long outside my contract period and that I was free to leave.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

No, my link is to the General Conditions which covers everything. Special conditions for phone are under Telephony.

Unless conditions explicitly state MAC request = notice then you cannnot make it so. After all as I said you may actually want to retain the service when you have MAC if you later do not use it.

In future a customer could be confused by what XRaySpecsX wrote as I now believe what he said above is wrong.

Here is a quote from the Ofcom document I found:

Issue of MAC represents acknowledgement and agreement by LSP that its customer may be migrated to another broadband service provider

Is this suggesting that when a broadband supplier issues a MAC they are effectively accepting and agreeing to the customer's notice of leaving? I think it could be!

I searched for legals to back up XRaySpecsX claim. I searched and searched and searched without success. This legal information would be relatively easy to find if it were true.

The Ofcom document clearly states my broadband supplier is acknowledging and agreeing that I may be leaving which to any layman will be interpreted as acknowledging and accepting my notice of leaving.

I also found out that requesting a MAC or simply giving notice of leaving isn't an instruction to terminate the service because Ofcom specifically state that it cannot be treated as such unless the customer wishes it to be a termination.

I could have called BT cancellations about my broadband once a week saying I am giving notice of leaving and still remain a broadband customer for as long as I want because BT are unable to act on that notice unless I tell them to do so. I could also have called BT cancellations once a month requesting a MAC however I remember reading something about BT could charge if I asked too many times so obviously don't do this as you might end up with a bigger bill than expected. I can't find what I read (I should bookmark more!) so I'm not sure of the details of the charge.

I checked BT's help website for advice on the steps required to switch to another broadband supplier. I actually found very little. There is no mention of notice and there is no mention of having to provide 14 or in some cases 30 days notice.

Here is what it says on the BT help website:

Moving to another service provider from BT
If you need to ask for a MAC from BT, the quickest way is to contact us on 0800 328 6738. Or you can submit your request online and we'll respond within five working days.
You'll have to pay any outstanding charges if you switch to another provider within your initial contract period.

Once a MAC has been issued to you and you've given it to the new provider, migration to your new provider should take place within five working days of the new order being placed.

If we can't issue a MAC for one of the reasons above, you can still stop your broadband service by calling us on 0800 800 030 before moving to another supplier. However, you will get a break in service.

There is a little more information about why issuing a MAC might not be possible but the above pretty much says it all.

Migration looks like a relatively painless process and I believe Ofcom worked on making it relatively painless yet here I am two months later! BT have repeatedly taken extra money from my account without authorisation to do so. The first time I saw it as a mistake because of the way the billing cycle works. I was promised it would be resolved for the next bill but it wasn't and now another bill and it still isn't resolved. Why? I have an idea and I will say leaving is not a relatively painless process and talking to BT cancellations can be anything but a painless process.

The BT cancellations people give the impression that they are well trained but in my eyes something is very wrong. It's like a cancer is growing inside the company in relation to outgoing customers. It's almost like they are learning to despise their outgoing customers especially those customers who move to Virgin cable without the protection of Ofcom and the MAC process.

The BT cancellations guy treated me horribly when he erroneously assumed I had switched to Virgin cable. He worked very hard to make it as painful as possible and he was persistently disrespectful until he realised his mistake. He made it perfectly clear that the Ofcom MAC process doesn't protect customers who are switching to Virgin cable. I wasn't that clued up about it all during that phone call but I am now.

One of BT's legal terms creates the 14 days notice period and it is applicable to my BT broadband service if I am interpreting the legals correctly but it shouldn't be applicable for various reasons. Of course the 14 days notice period doesn't apply to customers moving to Virgin cable. They must make do with 30 days notice. Why? Because those customers aren't protected by the Ofcom MAC process.

Here is BT's legal term:

Once we have provided the service, you may tell us to stop providing it at any time by giving us 30 days' notice. We will accept notice via a range of methods including phone, e-mail, online chat and in writing. You can contact us to give notice using any of the contact details set out on your last BT bill or any other means of contact we have given you, for that purpose. If you are switching to another provider through an approved process, the notice you must give us will be 14 days. We can stop providing the service to you by giving you 28 days' written notice.

Of course, it doesn't specifically say that when moving to Virgin cable you have to make do with the 30 days notice period however that is exactly why the term is worded as such.

When the BT cancellations guy erroneously assumed I had switched to Virgin cable he was happily treating me with disdain as a result of this term. He was doing his job and he told me on many occasions he prided himself on doing the job right.

He was making a mistake but regardless of my pleas for him to see sense he decided he was right and persisted in treating me with disdain. Once he realised his mistake he was quick to apologise but it still pains me to think he is working on the premise that it is perfectly acceptable to keep customers on the phone for an hour because he knows they are not protected under Ofcom's MAC process. I don't blame the guy for how he acted because it is obvious he has been instructed to behave that way. Someone high up in BT really doesn't agree with customers moving to Virgin cable that is for sure.

It's very easy for the layman to misinterpret legals like I did when I believed the standard terms notice period was connected only to the telephone line. It says about the telephone line notice on BT's help website but it doesn't for the broadband migration.

I actually tried to keep this short at first but now I have written much more than I originally intended. As I was writing I felt it was important to include more of my dealings with BT cancellations.

Saying you want to leave is a common tactic for people looking for a retention deal, so did you actually confirm on the 4th Jan that you were giving notice?

Worst case they could charge you the notice period starting 24 th Jan, best case it will run from 4th Jan. Without any written confirmation or email it is your word versus theirs.

The free to leave still means you have to stay for the notice period or at least pay for the part you did not use.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Saying you want to leave is a common tactic for people looking for a retention deal, so did you actually confirm on the 4th Jan that you were giving notice?

Worst case they could charge you the notice period starting 24 th Jan, best case it will run from 4th Jan. Without any written confirmation or email it is your word versus theirs.

The free to leave still means you have to stay for the notice period or at least pay for the part you did not use.

I didn't know I needed to give 14 days notice. According to Ofcom the requirement of giving notice is supposed to be very clear but in my opinion BT haven't made it very clear except when you are skilled at reading legal documents which obviously I am not because I made the mistake of interpreting the notice period term incorrectly.

When I called about leaving I didn't make a point of remembering exactly the conversation because I didn't know it was necessary. I did my research regarding leaving and I believed I was acting appropriately by simply using the MAC process.

Now I understand more about it all and when I look back at how it all transpired it's fortunate that I did actually provide notice of leaving on multiple occasions regardless that I did not know it might be necessary to do so. Should BT review the calls I made to them they would come to the conclusion very quickly that I told them I was leaving. There was never an intention to deceive on my part. I wasn't looking to deceive them to get a better deal.

It doesn't matter about what XRaySpecsX said now anyway because it is obvious he got it wrong. BT took notice of my leaving when they issued the MAC so simply following the MAC process is enough to satisfy the notice of leaving term in the BT legals.

There is still a potential issue when the migration completes before the 14 days notice period has expired. If BT legals are to be followed directly it means the customer will be required to pay for both services until the 14 days expires. However Ofcom are very clear on that too when they say charging up to the date the service ceases is acceptable. It would be a reasonable argument that BT must not try to enforce the remainder of the 14 days notice since they are no longer providing service.

BT might want to clarify it for it to be more easily understood but I doubt they care about that.

Also I just noticed you appear to be suggesting that following BT legals must be the only course of action.

BT legals aren't the law.The legals are to be applied in accordance with the law.

It's is illegal for BT to include a term that is unfair for a consumer.

Asking for payment for a service that is no longer being provided is most certainly not a fair term.

Why would anyone say that after my service has ceased I must continue to pay for it because a term in BT's legals says I must do so?

>Is this suggesting that when a broadband supplier issues a MAC they are effectively accepting and agreeing to the customer's notice of leaving? I think it could be!

No it is not saying that, it is saying the ISP is agreeing the user may move, there is no pre-requisite that you MUST move after acquiring a MAC.

If you have made it through life with various monthly services and never come across a product without a notice period then you have done very well.

You agree to the Terms and Conditions when you sign-up, you are expected to be offered a summary and the chance to read them in full detail, and I for one always check what the exit clauses are like.

If you dispute the charges which appears to be the case, get the advice of a legal representative or Citizens Advice people. They seem pretty clear to me "If you are switching to another provider through an approved process, the notice you must give us will be 14 days." So if I migrate and start on another provider within 7 days of giving notice I will pay for the next 7 days of my notice period.

It is possible you may not have communicated your formal giving of notice clearly, as you have tied a few knots in your posts here.

In reply to a post by jreckon:

The Ofcom document clearly states my broadband supplier is acknowledging and agreeing that I may be leaving which to any layman will be interpreted as acknowledging and accepting my notice of leaving.

You need to brush up on your English grammar. Note the word "may" in Ofcom's statement, it does not mean "is". It is simply saying the the ISP becomes aware that customer is thinking of migrating.

The T&Cs are the T&Cs of your contract. They are the legal terms under which your relationship with your supplier is operated. You can't just make up your own terms to suit yourself w/out consent.

Also when you give notice you are positively stating that you will be terminating the whole contract in a certain number of days, not just of "leaving".

In reply to a post by jreckon:

Now I understand more about it all and when I look back at how it all transpired it's fortunate that I did actually provide notice of leaving on multiple occasions regardless that I did not know it might be necessary to do so.

No, you never ever provided notice of termination, as you didn't even understand it was necessary and you still don't.

There many other misconceptions in your rant, but I cba.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Mon 25-Mar-13 14:45:43)

Actually there is a no pre-requisite that I must move after providing notice of leaving either.

I decide when I want to leave as is my right. I decide how I will leave. I decide when to call BT cancellations to request a MAC. I decide how I provide notice of leaving and again this is my right. BT legals do not restrict or attempt to control my right to choose how I provide notice of leaving. All I need is acknowledgement of my request to leave which occurs when BT issues the MAC.

Ofcom made it very clear. I am simply following Ofcom guidelines.

What am I missing?

Why do you say requesting a MAC is not the same as providing notice of leaving?

In reply to a post by jreckon:

Actually there is a no pre-requisite that I must move after providing notice of leaving either.

How you work that out?

My posting here has lead me to the conclusion that perhaps I was very fortunate because regardless that I didn't know notice must be provided for broadband and not just the telephone line. I did provide notice.

The fact of my giving notice need not be disputed any further. I did give notice. End of.

However, I do dispute that a requirement to provide separate notice is not in BT's legals. This is a discussion and in future someone may not have provided notice and they may be given wrong information unless this dispute is resolved.

I agreed to BT's terms and conditions but the terms are not the law. The terms must be applied in accordance with the law. I know that the law protects me from unfair terms in consumer contracts. BT's terms do not attempt to restrict such protection and even if it did it would be futile.

It's like I am supposed to accept that I have agreed that BT can continue to charge me for the service they are no longer providing and there is no legal challenge available to me to dispute it? This isn't the law and in fact long ago laws were introduced to prevent companies from getting away with unfair terms in their contracts.

Expecting payment when service has ceased doesn't appear to be a fair enforcement of one of the terms in BT's legals. How should I think about it to make it seem fair to me?

BT aren't allowed to terminate unless I specify exactly how I want to terminate.

I can sign up to BT broadband and on the day service starts I can call BT cancellations and inform them that I am giving notice of termination but at this time I haven't decided how I will be leaving and I will get back to them about it in the future.

I wait 5 years and once again call up BT cancellations and tell them I have decided to terminate now.

We all pay some overlap in BB services. As long as it is reasonable, say up to 30 days, and according to contract (as per that BT T&Cs I quoted to you earlier) it is considered fair by the regulators. To prove it unfair, it is not sufficient for you to say so, but to take it to Court and prove your point.

If you have not I would suggest seeking paid legal advice, I believe CAB would give similar responses to what myself and others have here.

I think you have tied yourself in knots, over an attempt to save a pound or two after the migration happened.

Ofcom are very clear about it. They allow charging up to the date the service ceased.

I don't have to prove it. Ofcom have already ruled on it.

In reply to a post by jreckon:

BT aren't allowed to terminate unless I specify exactly how I want to terminate.

Why not? They don't care how you arrange your future BB, if at all. You've asked them to terminate, so they will accede to your wishes.

In reply to a post by jreckon:

I can sign up to BT broadband and on the day service starts I can call BT cancellations and inform them that I am giving notice of termination but at this time I haven't decided how I will be leaving

That's your problem, not BT's! They will just cut you off at the end of notice period and present their bill.

I must say you have a perverted view of Contract Law. You can't just say "I'm giving you notice of termination, but maybe I won't.". They'll insist that you make it clear whether you are terminating or not.

In reply to a post by jreckon:

Ofcom are very clear about it. They allow charging up to the date the service ceased.

I don't have to prove it. Ofcom have already ruled on it.

We will be interested to see the results of your complaint (about BT) to OFCOM!

I haven't tied myself in knots or tried to save a pound or two after the migration happened.

The extra money they took isn't a big deal it's only around £50.

I would like it resolved but so far it hasn't.

Please supply a link to this quote. I cannot see it in Ofcom's Migrations Authorisation Code (MAC) Broadband Migrations Process Code of Practice.

In reply to a post by jreckon:

When the LSP is notified that a migration has taken place, the customer�s notice period (i.e. the date at which notice to discontinue service is taken for the purposes of calculating any outstanding subscription charges under the contract) will be taken to have commenced on the issue date of the MAC, or on the date of any prior notice to terminate, whichever is the earlier.

It seems unfair to the ISP:

Day 0: You request receive a MAC which has a life of 30 days
Day 25: You sign up to another ISP presenting MAC
Day 35: Other ISP migrates your BB ceasing your BT BB

Quoted Ofcom statement says notice started on Day 0 and ends on Day14, according to BT's T&Cs. So you pay BT only up to Day 14 and pay other ISP from Day 35.

So you get 21 days free BB? Is that right?

EDIT: No, it's not correct. That quote is not an obligation on the ISP and has been introduced here as a red herring.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Mon 25-Mar-13 17:49:31)

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Why not? They don't care how you arrange your future BB, if at all. You've asked them to terminate, so they will accede to your wishes.

Ofcom made it so. It's in the Migration Code of Practice and General Condition 22.

BT are not allowed to act on my notice to terminate until I tell them exactly how I will be terminating be it a broadband cease or a MAC request.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

That's your problem, not BT's! They will just cut you off at the end of notice period and present their bill.

I must say you have a perverted view of Contract Law. You can't just say "I'm giving you notice of termination, but maybe I won't.". They'll insist that you make it clear whether you are terminating or not.

It isn't in the legals for them to enforce such so they have no legal basis for doing such a thing.

Where does it say in the legals that I cannot give notice of termination while still being undecided on how to leave?

Has it occurred to you that if everyone you discuss this with disagrees with you, including your interpretation of the voluminous OfCom quotes you have posted, that there is the tiniest possibility you are wrong?

There is nothing in OfCom's publications to say you do not have to pay for whatever notice period you signed up for. OfCom is a regulatory and advisory body operating under statute, but it has no power to override established Contract Law.

The giving of notice is a specific action, requiring in most transactions a specific date for termination of the contract. It can not in normal circumstances be implied from woolly statements about intending to leave.

OfCom's recommendation to ISPs about the provision of MACs is that if the customer has not given formal notice in some other way then the issue of the MAC, (without looking it up I believe "issue" is the the relevant date not the request), should be taken as the start of whatever notice period is applicable to the particular contract.

Most ISPs follow that recommendation, but they have no need whatsoever to do so. Their T & Cs will be clear about the matter.

The fact you may migrate out on Day 8 of a 14-day or 30-day contract doesn't mean you don't have to pay for the whole of the notice period, even though you are no longer connected to their service.

If you buy a train ticket from London to Glasgow and get off at an intermediate stop and catch a coach from there to Liverpool, would you expect a refund of part of your train ticket price?

From the parts of your posts that I remember, as you are hardly the clearest presenter of a point of view, the earliest you did anything formally was when you requested the MAC. That is the earliest your notice period could be deemed to have started.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Please supply a link to this quote. I cannot see it in Ofcom's Migrations Authorisation Code (MAC) Broadband Migrations Process Code of Practice.

In reply to a post by jreckon:

When the LSP is notified that a migration has taken place, the customer�s notice period (i.e. the date at which notice to discontinue service is taken for the purposes of calculating any outstanding subscription charges under the contract) will be taken to have commenced on the issue date of the MAC, or on the date of any prior notice to terminate, whichever is the earlier.

It seems unfair to the ISP:

Day 0: You request a MAC which has a life of 30 days
Day 25: You sign up to another ISP presenting MAC
Day 35: Other ISP migrates your BB ceasing your BT BB

Quoted Ofcom statement says notice started on Day 0 and ends on Day14, according to BT's T&Cs. So you pay BT only up to Day 14 and pay other ISP from Day 35.

So you get 21 days free BB? Is that right?

No. Ofcom also made it clear the LSP can charge up to the date the service ceased. I am not disputing this. I accept that BT can charge right up to the 21st of January.

Like I said I am not disputing charges up to the 21st of January. Ofcom made it clear that the LSP can charge up to the date the service ceased.

My BT broadband ceased on the 21st of January and I am fine with BT charging for their service up to that date.

What I am not fine about is others suggesting without actually providing legal basis that BT can charge beyond the date the service ceased.

When my BT broadband has ceased I am no longer being providing with the broadband service so the contract shouldn't be applicable beyond the cease date?

Post deleted by XRaySpeX

Hence why I recommend taking legal advice from someone who will reach behind them for a book and quote contract law.

That meeting will cost you more then £50 even it it takes just 10 minutes.

If the Ofcom statement is saying what you think it is then solution open to you is to not pay the money owed, and when the debt collection notices appear to appeal. Or pay and then pursue the matter via small claims court.

Hence recommendation to seek advice from a contract lawyer. I think you are mis-interpreting the Ofcom General Condition 22.

OK Found it!

Edited by XRaySpeX (Mon 25-Mar-13 17:23:08)

Andrew, I suspect you misunderstand.

I am not looking to withhold payments. I am attempting to recover the excess payments that BT has already taken!

My contract for BT broadband ended on the 21st of January but BT continued to take broadband payments from my bank account beyond that date. Last month BT erroneously took full payment for my ceased broadband service but so far they have no intention of returning it.

I know not to cancel or deny payments regardless of those payments being in excess and in fact in the past I have willingly paid hundreds of pounds in excess because I knew if I didn't there would be a computer system responding badly due to non-payment. I knew it would be more costly to try to resolve non-payment than it would be to recover excess payments.

I would like BT to refund the excess money they took from my account because as far as I have learned they are allowed to charge up to the date my broadband ceased which is 21st January.

Edited by deleted (Mon 25-Mar-13 17:34:25)

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/guide/resolving-a-broa...

With links to many resources including www.moneyclaim.gov.uk.

NOTE: Your broadband did not cease, cease has a different meaning to migration.

Your service was migrated on 21st January, if it had actually ceased you would be looking at an extra change of £30 to 40 for a cease charge. The use of the correct words is very important.

The continued payments in my view stem from you not giving clear instruction that you wished to give notice under the terms and conditions of the original contract.

In reply to a post by jreckon:

When the LSP is notified that a migration has taken place, the customer�s notice period (i.e. the date at which notice to discontinue service is taken for the purposes of calculating any outstanding subscription charges under the contract) will be taken to have commenced on the issue date of the MAC, or on the date of any prior notice to terminate, whichever is the earlier.

That statement is ineffectual cuz you fail to make clear and quote its Application to General Condition 22:

In reference to stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/migration/statemen...:

This provision is not included in proposed GC/Annex 1 as an obligation. The notice period will depend on the terms of a customer�s contract with the broadband service provider as to when notice is taken to have been received and when subscription charges are no longer payable. It is assumed that customers would be required to pay subscription charges until the day the service is migrated to another broadband SP.

Your grasp of the "legals", as you call them, is lacking. You really need to consult a lawyer or Citizens' Advice.

When did you join BT Broadband? It is relevant.

You whole problem stems from the fact that you are ignorant of what notice is and that it is necessary, and that you never positively told BT that you were leaving/ had left until 6 March, rather than the woolly leaving statements you made earlier to them.

In reply to a post by jreckon:

The BT cancellations guy treated me horribly when he erroneously assumed I had switched to Virgin cable. He worked very hard to make it as painful as possible and he was persistently disrespectful until he realised his mistake. He made it perfectly clear that the Ofcom MAC process doesn't protect customers who are switching to Virgin cable. I wasn't that clued up about it all during that phone call but I am now.

Just out of interest, did he think that because you told him you had moved to Virgin (ADSL)?

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

You whole problem stems from the fact that you are ignorant of what notice is and that it is necessary, and that you never positively told BT that you were leaving/ had left until 6 March, rather than the woolly leaving statements you made earlier to them.

Whilst I agree with that, most decent ISPs would credit back to the migration date, unless there is some other factor that we don't know about. An obvious possibility being a simple cock-up by the person spoken to on 6 March.

I said my BT broadband service had ended.

I was intending to convey that BT was no longer providing my broadband service.

Are you suggesting BT were somehow providing my broadband service beyond the 21st of January?

My new ADSL broadband service was up and running on that date so I find it difficult to believe that BT were still providing service.

The contract is for broadband service but BT cannot provide broadband service after the migration is completed. BT are unable to provide broadband service which is a breach of contract. The BT legals aren't applicable because the contract is void. Even if BT wanted to reintroduce broadband service they are unable to do so as the right to do so has already transferred to the GSP.

Not sure when but years ago. It appears the contract restarted at some point however because the last I heard from BT was the contract term ended in 2011.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by jreckon:

The BT cancellations guy treated me horribly when he erroneously assumed I had switched to Virgin cable. He worked very hard to make it as painful as possible and he was persistently disrespectful until he realised his mistake. He made it perfectly clear that the Ofcom MAC process doesn't protect customers who are switching to Virgin cable. I wasn't that clued up about it all during that phone call but I am now.

Just out of interest, did he think that because you told him you had moved to Virgin (ADSL)?

No.

He didn't really understand how he made the mistake but he said he had gone into like an auto pilot mode. When he apologised he also said I must have thought he was raving mad and I did but also I was relying on him telling me the truth so it became very confusing. He thought he was telling me the truth so I can't blame him for how he acted.

The blame most certainly lies with those in BT who instruct their staff to act with such a horrible attitude towards customers who have switched to Virgin cable! I wouldn't be surprised to find out that all Virgin cable customers who dispute BT's excess billing are treated like the scum of the earth.

No.

It is still part of Annex 4 or something like that. I think it was number 16 in the list.

Also you found the important part I was missing:

It is assumed that customers would be required to pay subscription charges until the day the service is migrated to another broadband SP.

This is word from Ofcom that BT are unable to charge beyond the day the service is migrated out.

This is word from Ofcom that BT are unable to charge beyond the day the service is migrated out.

No it isn't, it's your cock-eyed understanding of English again! An assumption by Ofcom isn't binding upon anyone, as reinforced by the "no obligation" phrase at the beginning of that paragraph.

In reply to a post by jreckon:

Not sure when but years ago. It appears the contract restarted at some point however because the last I heard from BT was the contract term ended in 2011.

That is probably OK then. I did wonder if you were on some renewed contract that you were still within on 21 January.

In reply to a post by jreckon:

This is word from Ofcom that BT are unable to charge beyond the day the service is migrated out.

Wrong! It means that as a minimum they will be able to charge up to the migration.

How about someone on a 12-month contract, who for some reason migrates out in the middle of Month 2. By your logic they shouldn't have to pay anything from the date they migrate out. Is that what you think?

No I was trying to HIGHLIGHT that CEASE has special meaning attached to it

That distinction probably confuses the uninitiated, as it did here, considering that the contract certainly ceases, if not the BB.

It went like this:

Me: I am switching to another broadband supplier but I need the MAC. My new broadband provider has already added me to their system but we cannot continue until I give them the MAC.
BT: Do you mind my asking why you are leaving?
Me: It is mostly down to cost as it is much cheaper with my new supplier. I already spoke to you guys the other day about a new deal but you cannot match it.
BT: I will need to put you on hold to generate the MAC.
Me: Great. Thanks.
BT: Thank you for holding. Here is your MAC.
Me: Thanks, Bye.

I was fortunate that I told them I was leaving? I didn't just request a MAC I told them I was switching to my new broadband supplier who I had already contacted and was already signed up on their system.

Another thing. I always ask if there is anything further I need to do. I was told that when I give the MAC to my new supplier the migration will happen and that is it. The BT cancellations guy didn't tell me this:

Most people don't know this which is why we tell you now in case you weren't aware of it. When you have actually used the MAC you must phone back to give notice of leaving otherwise you may be charged excess.

I specifically asked if I had to do anything else and I was told there is nothing else I need to do.

Can you stop disputing that I gave notice of leaving now?

No, that isn't right.

The statement from Ofcom specifically states that terms in the contract regarding subscription should still be met. BT has terms that specify you must pay the subscription charges if you are within the minimum term.

Those subscription charges within the minimum term do not apply to me because I am outside the minimum contract term. I have paid the money applicable to the full term of the contract and BT have erroneously taken more money. They took an excess from my bank account and you and others on here are trying to tell me they are allowed to do that?

All that exists is notice of 14 days which has nothing to do with subscription charges within the contract term.

Ofcom expect that I will pay for my broadband service up until the date my broadband service was migrated out and I have no issue with that. Never have I had an issue with that.

I don't need a lawyer to tell me that I am being reasonable and BT charging excess after they have stopped providing service is being unreasonable.

I believe upon leaving the service BT are meant to tell the customers this and they will have to pay the remaining amount of months on their contract. Then you also have charges for not notifying BT that you are leaving... within a certain time period.

Edited by deleted (Tue 26-Mar-13 10:17:21)

In reply to a post by jreckon:

I don't need a lawyer to tell me that I am being reasonable and BT charging excess after they have stopped providing service is being unreasonable.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that the situation hasn't gone wrong, nor that (somehow) you have been charged more than you should have been (had it gone correctly).

Surely the question is how do you get your money back when virtually all of the "evidence" has been via Telephone Calls (rather than anything specific in writing)?

As I'm sure you will appreciate that, unless you have specific recordings of the conversations, these can always be open to interpretation.

There is always the danger that someone has "assumed" something, whether that assumption was totally intended or not!

Clearly I was not a party to your conversations &, hence, I will not pretend to know whether you gave (or did not give) the right information/instructions at the requisite time.

My only suggestion would be to contact BT & see what you can achieve. Be polite but firm - DON'T try to get "All-Contractual" & DON'T try to quote OFCOM as being "Tablets-of-Stone" criteria (they are not - they are "Guidelines").

I would also suggest on trying to get the bulk of your money back & NOT get too hung-up & trying to achieve every last penny (surely it must be better to get 95% of the monies, rather than force them into a corner & forcing them to object to everything?

In reply to a post by ryant704:

I believe upon leaving the service BT are meant to tell the customers this and they will have to pay the remaining amount of months on their contract. Then you also have charges for not notifying BT that you are leaving... within a certain time period.

Are there legals you can link to that explain your belief?

It doesn't matter actually because finally I found the proof of what I have been saying all along and it's very easy to understand. Thankfully!

A1.105 For fixed voice and broadband services, where formal service migration processes
apply which are likely to take between 5 and 10 working days, we consider this is
likely to be a sufficient period for the necessary administration of terminating the
contract. We consider that a longer MiNP in a contract for such services is likely to
be unfair. This should mean the cessation date for charging by the supplier does
not go beyond the date on which the migration occurs.

Now all you people saying I was wrong need to re-calibrate your "what is reasonable" thought process!

The thing is it could have been resolved long ago.

I have contacted BT cancellations a few times to resolve this problem but each time it's gone wrong. Why? I suspect it's because like I said there is a cancer growing inside BT cancellations regarding outgoing customers and the staff have been afflicted by it.

One of the calls I made to BT cancellations resulted in the lady asking that I hold while she called some department and instead she transferred me to another department and it wasn't even one that could help me. I asked to be transferred back to cancellations and when I told the guy what happened he wasn't impressed that she did that and in fact he indicated that perhaps she did it on purpose so as not to have to deal with my call and he wasn't too happy that now he had to deal with it!

How about the time I called to confirm the migration on the 24th of January. The lady there she put it through as a termination of service however it couldn't happen because my broadband had already been migrated out. It actually resulted in my phone line calls package being re-contracted but allegedly I won't be held to that contract but they didn't actually act to resolve it I just have to believe that the contract won't be held to term and you can imagine how much trust I have in that happening!

One mistake isn't such a big deal, two mistakes could be considered negligence but more than that and we have to consider that something is seriously wrong in BT's cancellations department!

I'm just asking to sort out a billing issue it's not rocket science!

Consider this...

People reading your posts here have got confused, and that is when we are able to read it, rather than having to take in what is been said on the telephone quickly.

So I would suggest there has been a lot of scope for mis-understanding all around.

Has this money being removed via a Direct Debit, if so then chase your bank for the refunding utilising the Direct Debit guarantee

If you are sure you are correct, then use Direct Debit guarantee or the Small Claims Court which I have linked to previously to chase your refund.

Its obvious you are getting nowhere with BT or us.

If that is an accurate transcript as you assert, then the course is clear, a formal complaint and/or Small Claims court

Yes, it is the truth.

I didn't think I needed to provide a transcript. I had expected that my word would be enough.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

If you are sure you are correct, then use Direct Debit guarantee or the Small Claims Court which I have linked to previously to chase your refund.

Its obvious you are getting nowhere with BT or us.

I posted here hoping I would receive advice to take to BT to help with resolving my situation. I didn't expect people not to believe what I was saying or to blindly quote BT legals like it is the law!

More like people chose to berate me about my understanding of the legals when in fact my understanding was based on the law but others were simply blindly following BT's legals like it is the law.

I don't have to be a lawyer to know that the law protects me and in this case Ofcom protects me in accordance with the law! People on here ignored my understanding of the law and incorrectly told me that following BT legals is what I must do!

We look forward to you reporting back that you have won in small claims court.

Have you sought proper independent legal advice on the issue? Or is your own knowledge of contract law sufficient?

To be fair, you have posted on a public forum for broadband related issues. Most advice on here, with regard to understanding broadband service and faults is very good. This forum is not where I would go to seek advice for the problem you wish resolved.

Being a public forum you will get a broad cross section of users reading and replying. If you find that you don't like advice offered by some, then just ignore it.

Now, if your broadband is working OK, that'll be the end of my input in this thread.

TTFN.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

If that is an accurate transcript as you assert, then the course is clear, a formal complaint and/or Small Claims court

Also, you have BT_Care here on your forum. Ask them to look into it. I give BT permission to privately provide you with each detail of my story as they know it. I know from the guy at BT cancellations that every call I make and who I spoke to is logged. They record all the calls too.

I can assure you I have told the truth.

Everything I have posted about my dealing with BT did happen. I might not have said it exactly right word for word but I am sure it is close enough for BT to agree with what I have said.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

We look forward to you reporting back that you have won in small claims court.

Have you sought proper independent legal advice on the issue? Or is your own knowledge of contract law sufficient?

It was the principle. I didn't believe that BT were legally allowed to take excess money. I didn't believe the law would allow such a thing.

I don't think you are being fair with that small claims court comment.

In which case you will have no problems claiming back the money and thus I expect to here back shortly that you have been successful.

No need for me to spend what would be a days work to chase and analyse your call records, after signing the pre-requisite paperwork to promise to not disclose etc.

Why not? If a firm takes money they are not entitled to in your opinion, then small claims is the way that the courts have deemed that consumers can chase the money back.

I'm not saying £50 is a small amount of money but come on it's not that big a deal.

Like I said, it was the principle, it works both ways, the law is the law and all that.

I posted here to find out if it was worth pursuing BT for the excess money and now I know there is legal basis for doing so.

You don't have to be so rude about it.

Thank you for your polite and well reasoned post. It's appreciated.

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/guide/resolving-a-broa...

The law is the law, but contract law is made up of many court cases, which set precents, hence why in 2010 Ofcom changed some of the guidance it gives, because of court case.

Law is far from black and white.

What people have been trying to do is raise what is their intrepretation of the law, which is that providers can charge for a reasonable notice period even if it extends beyond the date of migration.

Put two lawyers in a room, and they will find different cases to back their view of the law, and it is down to the judge to rule in that situation, which is where case law comes from.

Ask on a public forum and you will get many more views.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

in 2010 Ofcom changed some of the guidance it gives

As you appreciate, OFCOM issues guidance, but this does NOT mean that this guidance should be interpreted as being "The Law"!

Equally, because it is "guidance", there is always room for interpretation &, as you rightly say, it is far from black and white.

No people did not do that.

People interpreted BT's legals in spite of the law and that is what I had issue with. BT's legals are not the law. They are to be applied in accordance with the law.

Ofcom believes that non-core legal terms can be questioned in regards to fairness.

I now know that the 14 days notice period can be questioned in regards to fairness.

I can't remember where I read it but BT state 5 days for a migration to complete. The BT legals should be updated with a 5 day notice period in accordance with Ofcom's interpretation of what is an acceptable notice period. It isn't the law but it should be applied in accordance with the law as Ofcom interprets it otherwise BT should be question it and any ruling would mean Ofcom's documents need updating. A ruling shouldn't be necessary however.

Also it is obvious that Ofcom expects that a supplier treat the MAC request as notice of leaving so it should be mentioned in BT's legals as such or clarified so as not to cause confusion.

In reply to a post by johnjburness:

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

in 2010 Ofcom changed some of the guidance it gives

As you appreciate, OFCOM issues guidance, but this does NOT mean that this guidance should be interpreted as being "The Law"!

Equally, because it is "guidance", there is always room for interpretation &, as you rightly say, it is far from black and white.

Actually it is black and white.

Ofcom ruled on it. Here I post it all for clarity:

E. Minimum Notice Period (MiNP)

A description of the charge

A1.99 Even where there is no MCP, suppliers usually require consumers to provide formal
notification of an intention to terminate a contract where regular payments are made
directly to the supplier.

A1.100 The Minimum Notice Period (�MiNP�) is often either 30 days or one calendar month,
and consumers are required to make payments up to the end of that period even if
they wish to terminate the contract (and the service) earlier. Lesser MiNPs are
generally applied to fixed voice services.

Ofcom�s guidance

Terms providing for MiNPs are likely to be non-core terms

A1.101 We consider that the MiNP is unlikely to be part of the main subject matter of the
contract and that terms providing for a MiNP are likely to be non core terms.

A1.102 In our view, consumers entering into a contract for services would not consider the
manner in which they are required to terminate that contract as part of the service
they are buying. As such, these terms cannot be regarded as part of the main
subject matter of the contract. MiNPs are therefore subject to the test of fairness.

The fairness test for MiNPs

A1.103 We consider a term providing for an MiNP is likely to be fair where the following
conditions are fulfilled:
 the MiNP is transparent to consumers within the contract at the point of sale; and
 the MiNP reflects a reasonable period in which to carry out the necessary
administration of terminating the contract.

A1.104 Failure to set MiNPs according to the principle in the second bullet point would be
likely to lead to consumers having to bear an unjustified risk of ceasing service with
the losing supplier before the end of the MiNP or of having to pay two suppliers for
a period of time in order to ensure a sufficient degree of overlap and no loss of
service.

A1.105 For fixed voice and broadband services, where formal service migration processes
apply which are likely to take between 5 and 10 working days, we consider this is
likely to be a sufficient period for the necessary administration of terminating the
contract. We consider that a longer MiNP in a contract for such services is likely to
be unfair. This should mean the cessation date for charging by the supplier does
not go beyond the date on which the migration occurs.

A1.106 For mobile services, and in any sector where no formal migration process applies,
we consider that the MiNP should be no longer than reasonably necessary for the
required administration. We see no reason why this should in any event be longer
than 30 days and likely much less. Ofcom review of additional charges
146

A1.107 If the consumer gives notice of termination such that the end of the MiNP would fall
within the MCP, the guidance in respect of early termination, set out above, will
apply.

F. Itemised or Paper Billing

A description of the charge

A1.108 The itemised or paper billing charge is a charge made to consumers for the
provision of a fully itemised or paper bill. For broadband suppliers itemisation is not
relevant, but some of these suppliers charge for paper bills.

A1.109 Our research indicates that as at August 2007, about half of non broadband
suppliers charged for itemised paper bills � generally between 50p and £1.50 per
bill. BT offers a discount of 50p a month from the headline service price for
paperless billing (i.e. £1.50 per bill for those billed quarterly).

A1.110 All the suppliers we looked at provided at least a basic level of paper billing for no
extra charge for voice or mobile telephony services. (Since by definition broadband
users have online access, the fact that some suppliers charge for any level of paper
billing is less of a concern to us.) Some provided a free paper bill for tariffs above a
certain level. However, all the suppliers that we looked at provide online itemised
bills at no charge.

Ofcom�s guidance

Instances where a term providing for an itemised or paper billing charge may be a
core term

A1.111 An itemised bill is a means by which the supplier sets out the nature of the service
that has been provided under the contractual agreement, enabling the consumer to
verify this.

A1.112 As with the non-DD charge, we consider that there may be circumstances where
the charge for itemised or paper billing may be considered a core term and
therefore not subject to the test of fairness, provided it is in plain and intelligible
language.

A1.113 We take the view that, in order to be likely to be considered a core term, any term
which provides for an itemised or paper billing charge must be set out in such a way
that the typical consumer would: (1) regard it as part of the price paid in exchange
for the services he is buying under the contract and part of the essential bargain
with the supplier, rather than as an incidental, additional charge, separate from that
price; and (2) would be aware of the level of information or billing which is thereby
provided by comparison with the basic, or standard, level of billing.

A1.114 We consider that the latter requirement arises from the fact that, in order to benefit
from the Regulations� core terms exemption, as terms relating to the adequacy of

Best practice

As a matter of best practice, Ofcom also considers it is important that suppliers
make it very clear to consumers what the minimum notice period is at the point at
which the consumer is considering terminating their contract.

Note the best practice regarding the importance of making it clear about the minimum notice period when I was considering terminating my contract.

BT have not implemented this best practice regardless that Ofcom considers that it is important.

A migration can take 5 days, it can also take 28 days. Perhaps the notice period needs to be worked out on an individual basis then?

Given a MAC has a life span of 28 days, it is probably fair to say that if BT had a notice period of greater than 28 days it would be unfair. A period of 14 days seems fair to me, but not to you. That is the joy of life, in that unless Ofcom actually STATES CATEGORICALLY that a notice periods cannot be longer than X days then providers lawyers will interpret the rules in various fashions.

There are also other parts of the Ofcom rules that mean issuing of a MAC should not be seen as notice of leaving, i.e. that service should NOT cease at MAC + 14 days (if 14 day notice). Your interpretation would mean requesting a MAC that lasts for 28 days is very risky, particularly as some providers are slow to use them and migration is not always fast to occur.

The more I think about it the more I realise that BT's legals with regards to notice is unfair.

You appear to go along with the notion that companies should be allows to enforce a notice period even when it extends beyond the service termination date.

Why accept it?

Why is it seemingly fair to you that a company can enforce such notice periods after the MCP has expired?

You have as much right to a fair notice period as BT does. The law protects you! You do not have to accept an unfair notice period.

Ofcom ruled that:

the MiNP reflects a reasonable period in which to carry out the necessary
administration of terminating the contract.

Even providing BT with 5 days of notice is being generous and other suppliers who require longer are abusing their position as far as I am concerned.

If you believe those "guidelines" are "black & white", you do not have much understanding of Contract Law!

I've tried to be open-minded, in my posts, & I've NOT assumed that you have been in the wrong (perhaps genuinely misunderstanding the situation, but not in the wrong).

You are determined to assume (assume = ASS out of U & ME) that everyone else is wrong & that you are completely in the right, regardless.

Clearly, you have the right to that opinion (but that is all it is - opinion), but I'm not going to bother trying to help anymore.

In the words of the TV Programme, Dragons Den, "I'm out of here"!

Why bother with a notice period at all? In an electronic world surely if I phone up, an ISP can provide to the millisecond billing detail for me?

No it's not about being right or wrong it's about fairness.

I think I am being reasonable. My take on it is fair. Why is that so difficult to agree with?

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Why bother with a notice period at all? In an electronic world surely if I phone up, an ISP can provide to the millisecond billing detail for me?

It's a means of extracting additional revenue from the outgoing customer

Ofcom clarified what is considered a fair notice period and the reasoning behind it.

The notice period might benefit the customer on some level but what exactly are we paying it for? Obviously it isn't unreasonable to legally include a notice period in the contract terms so it does pay for something. Ofcom say it's the administration costs. What are the administration duties we are paying for?

Admin let me think...

Closing down the account
Ensuring people have paid their final bill
Calculating any excess usage charges
Shifting the email account to the 90 day access system
Recovery of hardware

But all that is irrelevant to you, as I thought it was about BT charging you beyond the notice period, or them not having accepted that you had previously given notice.

Seems the thread has turned into a lets reform the notice period system, which at 14 days with BT is lower than a good many other services.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Please supply a link to this quote. I cannot see it in Ofcom's Migrations Authorisation Code (MAC) Broadband Migrations Process Code of Practice.

In reply to a post by jreckon:

When the LSP is notified that a migration has taken place, the customer�s notice period (i.e. the date at which notice to discontinue service is taken for the purposes of calculating any outstanding subscription charges under the contract) will be taken to have commenced on the issue date of the MAC, or on the date of any prior notice to terminate, whichever is the earlier.

It seems unfair to the ISP:

Day 0: You request receive a MAC which has a life of 30 days
Day 25: You sign up to another ISP presenting MAC
Day 35: Other ISP migrates your BB ceasing your BT BB

Quoted Ofcom statement says notice started on Day 0 and ends on Day14, according to BT's T&Cs. So you pay BT only up to Day 14 and pay other ISP from Day 35.

So you get 21 days free BB? Is that right?

EDIT: No, it's not correct. That quote is not an obligation on the ISP and has been introduced here as a red herring.

I missed your Ninja Edit!

I wonder if you are able to refute this:

E. Minimum Notice Periods

Description of the charge

104. Whether or not there is a MCP, CPs usually require consumers to provide
formal notification of an intention to terminate a contract for communications
services.

105. Ofcom has seen contracts in which the Minimum Notice Period (�MiNP�) is
30 days or one calendar month, and consumers are required to make
payments up to the end of that period even if they wish to terminate the
contract (and the service) earlier. Ofcom has also seen shorter MiNPs is
some contracts, especially for fixed voice services.

Ofcom�s guidance

Terms providing for MiNPs are likely to be non-exempt

106. We consider that the MiNP is unlikely to be an exempt matter. The terms
providing for a MiNP do not define the main subject matter of the contract.
So, those terms, and the length of the MiNP, are likely to be subject to the
fairness test.

The fairness test for MiNPs

107. We consider a term providing for an MiNP is likely to be fair where:

107.1 the MiNP is transparent to consumers within the contract at the
point of sale; and

107.2 the MiNP reflects a reasonable period in which to carry out the
necessary administration of terminating the contract.

108. Failure to set MiNPs according to the principle in the second bullet point
would be likely to lead to consumers having to bear an unjustified risk of
ceasing service with the losing CP before the end of the MiNP, and of
having to pay two CPs for a period of time in order to ensure a sufficient
degree of overlap and no loss of service.

109. In addition, most of the communications services to which this Guidance
applies are subject to formal service migration processes. These entitle
consumers to change CPs in specified time periods. A contract term
providing for a MiNP significantly longer than those periods risks frustrating
that right, by requiring consumers to pay for services longer than they
receive them. It is at risk of unfairness, especially where the MiNP is longer
than the period reasonably required to administer the termination of the
contract.

110. For fixed voice and broadband services, where the formal service migration
processes which apply are likely to take between 5 and 10 working days, we
consider this is likely to be a sufficient period for the necessary
administration of terminating the contract. We consider that a longer MiNP
in a contract for such services is liable to be unfair. This should mean the
date the CP stops charging the consumer is not later than the date on which
the service migration occurs.

111. For mobile services, and in any sector where no formal migration process
applies, we consider that the MiNP should be no longer than reasonably
necessary for the required administration. We see no reason why this
should in any event be longer than 30 days and likely much less.

112. If the consumer gives notice of termination such that the end of the MiNP
would fall within the MCP, the guidance in respect of early termination, set
out in section C above, will apply.

Best practice

As a matter of best practice, Ofcom also considers it is important that CPs make it
very clear to consumers what the minimum notice period is not only at the point of
sale but also at the point at which the consumer is considering terminating their
contract.

Do you work for BT?

Edited by deleted (Tue 26-Mar-13 15:52:01)

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Admin let me think...

Closing down the account
Ensuring people have paid their final bill
Calculating any excess usage charges
Shifting the email account to the 90 day access system
Recovery of hardware

But all that is irrelevant to you, as I thought it was about BT charging you beyond the notice period, or them not having accepted that you had previously given notice.

Seems the thread has turned into a lets reform the notice period system, which at 14 days with BT is lower than a good many other services.

It's not irrelevant to me and in fact I would like to know what my notice period money is used for. I would like a detailed breakdown of it all. Maybe if I saw the actual cost of it I would change my mind and be more than happy to pay BT for a much longer notice period! I doubt I will ever find out because the administration duties are unlikely to be disclosed to me!

Going on what you have said it apparently costs BT very little to close down my broadband service:

Closing down the account? Not applicable. My BT account is still in operation because I have a phone line. The actual closing down of my broadband service appears to be a few clicks of a button on BT's computer system!

Ensuring people have paid their final bill? My bank paid every single broadband payment on time and in fact BT erroneously extracted two additional full month broadband payments.

Calculating any excess usage charges? Not applicable to my broadband service.

Shifting the email account to the 90 day access system? Not necessary but whatever.

Recovery of hardware? The Home Hub 2 broke and has been disposed of. However I bought my own Home Hub 3 and they can recover it if they want it.

I agree that this discussion has taken a few turns. I wanted to know if I should continue to ask BT to resolve the excess charges problem. I was just looking for an answer and it was others on here who initiated the notice aspect of this discussion.

>I wanted to know if I should continue to ask BT to resolve the excess charges problem
Yes

But if BT are disputing or delaying, then the alternate methods are the way to go as I have highlighted, several times.

I dunno where you are getting these Ofcom quotes from as you always fail to show their provenance by not providing links and I cba to search for them for your express pleasure. But these quotes contradict those you posted earlier:

E. Minimum Notice Period (MiNP)

A description of the charge

A1.99 Even where there is no MCP, suppliers usually require consumers to provide formal notification of an intention to terminate a contract where regular payments are made directly to the supplier.

A1.100 The Minimum Notice Period (�MiNP�) is often either 30 days or one calendar month, and consumers are required to make payments up to the end of that period even if they wish to terminate the contract (and the service) earlier.

One also puzzles why you are quoting 2 Section "E. Minimum Notice Periods"? Sounds like one or both are drafts or you have just made them up.

I will not bother to read the rest of your quote as I have grave doubts as to its provenance and you have given me no idea of their context..

As has been said here repeatedly Ofcom Codes of Practice are just guidance and many are voluntary codes that do not have the force of law.

No!

Edited by XRaySpeX (Tue 26-Mar-13 16:11:25)

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

I dunno where you are getting these Ofcom quotes from as you always fail to show their provenance by not providing links and I cba to search for them for your express pleasure. But these quotes contradict those you posted earlier:

E. Minimum Notice Period (MiNP)

A description of the charge

A1.99 Even where there is no MCP, suppliers usually require consumers to provide formal notification of an intention to terminate a contract where regular payments are made directly to the supplier.

A1.100 The Minimum Notice Period (�MiNP�) is often either 30 days or one calendar month, and consumers are required to make payments up to the end of that period even if they wish to terminate the contract (and the service) earlier.

One also puzzles why you are quoting 2 Section "E. Minimum Notice Periods"? Sounds like one or both are drafts or you have just made them up.

I will not bother to read the rest of your quote as I have grave doubts as to its provenance and you have given me no idea of their context..

As has been said here repeatedly Ofcom Codes of Practice are just guidance and many are voluntary codes that do not have the force of law.

No!

This shouldn't be about your opinion it should be about what is applicable in law and you pretended to know the law regarding BT's legals but you were wrong.

You still haven't provided legals showing that a MAC request cannot be considered formal notification of an intention to terminate. You conveniently ignored that request. You were unable to backup your opinion in accordance with the law or a consideration or ruling in accordance with the law.

You like to prove people wrong so why haven't you provided your legal evidence?

That quote discusses formal notification of an intention to terminate. The customer provides formal notification of an intention to terminate when requesting a MAC. End of.

The quote I posted is from the latest document regarding MiNP made available by Ofcom.

Go nuts:

http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultati...

I called BT and spoke to a very apologetic guy who has processed a refund of my money backdated to the date I migrated out which as you no doubt know by now is the 21st January 2013. The issue will be resolved next month when I receive my next bill. Finally!

I also received confirmation that I am in a new contract as of the 6th of May for the phone line and unlimited calls package. I will be calling the BT options team tomorrow to find out if they will be able to resolve that issue. There is the possibility that nothing can be done about the new contract as BT are allegedly allowed to re-contract the phone line and calls package when a customer terminates his broadband service.

"Whether a term is unfair is a matter ultimately for the courts to decide. But, there is only limited case law to assist CPs and consumers in this area, and no guidance which directly addresses terms in contracts for communications services. So, Ofcom considers that it is in the interests of all parties for us to set out our views as to the likely application of the Regulations to certain such terms."

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

"Whether a term is unfair is a matter ultimately for the courts to decide. But, there is only limited case law to assist CPs and consumers in this area, and no guidance which directly addresses terms in contracts for communications services. So, Ofcom considers that it is in the interests of all parties for us to set out our views as to the likely application of the Regulations to certain such terms."

I know. It's great isn't it.

Ofcom did all that work for us consumers!

As far as the application of the law is concerned Ofcom have ruled which is as close as we can get to an understanding of it without actually asking a court to rule on it.

In reply to a post by jreckon:

The more I think about it the more I realise that BT's legals with regards to notice is unfair.

You appear to go along with the notion that companies should be allows to enforce a notice period even when it extends beyond the service termination date.

Why accept it?

If you sign a contract to lease a flat for a year, and move out after 7 months, what do you think should happen to the five months rent you haven't used?

If you buy a ticket to a show and are sick two hours before and can't go, do you expect them to refund the price of the ticket?

There is no Law about MACs.

You and your "legals"! You fail to appreciate the distinction between legislation enacted by Act of Parliament and Civil Law which includes Contract Law which is determined by Case Law. Your contract with anybody sets out the rules under which your relationship is conducted and is enforceable in Court.

Do you honestly believe that all the ISPs which are major firms and their lawyers have got away for years with imposing notice periods of anything from 7 to 30 days or even more, usually covering some time after the contracted service has ceased, in defiance of the regulators and other authorities?

Perhaps, Don Quixote, you will be the 1st to prevent them doing this .

Hi jreckon,

I'll be happy to give you a hand with this. Sorry for the confusion. We need 14 days notice before switching to another ISP.

If you use a MAC code then your new ISP will contact us to notify us of the change. The notice period will start from this date.


It certainly sounds like something has went wrong here but I'll need a closer look at your account to try and peice together what happened.

If you drop me in an email I'll be happy to have a look over your account and confirm what's happened.

http://bt.custhelp.com/app/contact_email/c/4950

Cheers

Craig

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

You and your "legals"! You fail to appreciate the distinction between legislation enacted by Act of Parliament and Civil Law which includes Contract Law which is determined by Case Law. Your contract with anybody sets out the rules under which your relationship is conducted and is enforceable in Court.



Do you honestly believe that all the ISPs which are major firms and their lawyers have got away for years with imposing notice periods of anything from 7 to 30 days or even more, usually covering some time after the contracted service has ceased, in defiance of the regulators and other authorities?

Perhaps, Don Quixote, you will be the 1st to prevent them doing this .

Pardon. Punctuation makes this difficult to understand,

Edited by flippery (Wed 27-Mar-13 15:23:49)

Oh, you want me to remove the punctuation?

Only if you also remove all capital letters and carriage returns.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Only if you also remove all capital letters and carriage returns.

No, I reckon he should proliferate his writings with lots of apostrophes - might see if it brings Titus back!