Engineer visit potential £99 cost

I have an engineer coming next Friday as my speed has dropped from 2.9mbps to the below

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

I am wondering regarding the cost as I have been told that if the problem lies in my home then it would be a £99 charge. But for example if it is the homehub that is not working correctly then would this constitute a £99 charge as it is in my home?

I have changed all the wires, changed the microfilter (twice) disconnected the sky from the same input into the master socket to rule any wiring fault out. But it is still the same.

Also when it starts to freeze it becomes hard to even connect to the homehub stats through the browser which takes around 10 seconds to display each page, is that normal?

Below are my stats

Connection Information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 0 days, 16:59:55
Downstream: 1.281 Mbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps

ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type: Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up): 6.8 dB / 17.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 57.3 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 15.8 dBm / 12.3 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 499354 / 87
CRC Events (Down/Up): 67 / 7
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up): 261 / 5
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 35 / 9

If BT insist that their customers use the router/modem supplied then if that was to prove to be faulty or the cause of the low speeds,then i would say that the answer would be a definate no on being charged by openreach,But if they don't insist on customers using their homehub, then they could charge you if the router was at fault, which tbh may not be working properly freezing up when trying to access it, doesn't sound good, will BT not send you a replacement router F.O.C?
But if you have tested whilst plugged in to the test socket behind the faceplate on the master socket, swapped the adsl cable filters, then failing trying a different modem /router there isn't a lot more that you could be expected to do,to rule out faulty equipment your side,
Is the line noisy at all? with a corded phone again plugged in to the test socket dial 17070 option 2 , and listen carefully, using the secrecy button or coverning the mouth peice of the handset will stop any background noises being induced from your side

Edited by tommy45 (Sat 03-Aug-13 13:41:52)

Have you got anything new electrical or electronic? Or replaced or moved anything of those kinds?

Has next door just got a plasma TV they are proud of?

In reply to a post by colic:

Also when it starts to freeze it becomes hard to even connect to the homehub stats through the browser which takes around 10 seconds to display each page, is that normal?

Have you tried your computer wired to the homehub as well as wireless?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Have you got anything new electrical or electronic? Or replaced or moved anything of those kinds?

Has next door just got a plasma TV they are proud of?

The only one new thing electrical I have bought is a new laptop. I asked my neighbour and she wondered why the hell I was asking her lol. But no she hasn't.

I have not tested the cable to the homehub when it freezes to see what happens to be honest. I have been testing it each day with the cable and it is the same speed as wireless.

I cant test with a corded phone as I have asked a few friends and no one seems to have one lol.

The odd thing was though when I disconnected the phone line from the microfilter the speed stayed the same but the latency went up 20ms I did this a few times and each time the latency went up. I have swapped the microfilter as well so I am ruling that out.

I will be annoyed if I have to pay £99 as it was only 2 years ago I had to pay something like £179 for a phone line to be fitted as it is quite a new house and the original owners never had a phone line installed which I only found out about when ordering sky!

Are you using the new laptop on mains power or battery, or swapping between the two modes?

It would be interesting if it is on mains power to read the stats, then unplug its power cable from the wall socket and read the stats again. The thing that drops the voltage from 230v to 12v could be making noise. Just unplugging the power cable from the laptop isn't the thing to try.

As the Margin SNR has stayed constant but speed halved seems there maybe line or router problem. The HH is well known for problems, assume you have reset the modem and done ipconfig flushdns on computer.
what information is given at www.speedtest.btwholesale.com
Remove and unplug phone from mains. before test.
Do test first then further diagnostics at bottom. should get IP Profile for line and Max Speed. does this match recent results.

It does seem to match recent tests to be honest. But there does not seem to be much of a problem at this line synch rate but when it has gone higher instant problems. It is maxing the speed out as far as the extended stats said IP profile = 1.16 achieved 1.15

I also tested with the laptop plugged in and not plugged in. Normally it is not plugged in I do not use it that often at home I use it more for when I go to work. When it was on charge it sped up by 0.01 which is insignificant (unless you are BT and the chat guy saying "see it is already speeding up")

Just to say thought I use a program called stream2me on my iphone to stream music to it as I love my music but have too much to fit on my iphone so I stream it. When over the same IP address it should recognise the devices straight away which it always did until the problems started. Now I can connect one day and then the following day not be able to connect, I spent about 4 hours trying to figure out the problem and gave up. Then when I restarted the homehub as it was not responding again stream2me worked again straight away.

Sorry, I should have made my suggestion clearer. I'm not expecting a speed change doing what I said, I'm looking for noise margin (SNR/SNRM) changes caused simply by plugging or unplugging at the wall.

Look at all those errors, in a short-ish uptime. When the engineer comes mention, after he has run his initial tests, if there is a possibility of REIN.

This being BT Broadband, this will be a 'Boost" task, so the engineer will also be carrying replacement routers, if that proves to be the issue.

So looks like a problem with line as your sync should be twice that. www.kitz.co.uk
I had a similar experience when one of two wires to pole was corroded got worse when it rained, causing lower sync speeds but constant SNR Margin
As always difficult to diagnose from words.
Resetting router would force new connection and resolve freezing.
Only engineer will have equipment to sort.

You will not be billed if you are using the master socket, preferably the test socket

See here
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.exb...

Using this socket elimates all of your internal wiring so you cannot be billed unless it's your hub & even then it's a grey area. I think the engineers may have hubs anyway (and they are unlikely to bill you for this).

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

You will not be billed if you are using the master socket, preferably the test socket

Actually BT wont guarantee that, they told me yesterday that there is a 5% chance of being billed even when using a corded phone in the test socket. The reason being that there could be sources of noise within the property affecting the line for which Openreach are not responsible.

This was stated after waiting half an hour to talk to the faults team when calling on behalf of my aunt. She is unwilling to pay £99 under any circumstances so unfortunately we have reached an impasse with her noisy line problem

If you turn off every appliance, e.g. turn off the electricity at the mains wiring. Then listen on the corded phone. If it's still noisy you can pretty much rule out anything inside of your property.

I know BT do pass on the charges to customers far more than some others.

Yes I've eliminated all potential sources of noise and I'm personally convinced that there is a line fault somewhere between the NTE5 test socket and the exchange - quiet line test, 17070, with a "good" corded phone in the test socket = intermittent crackling and constant variable volumes of buzzing.

However BT faults were unable to guarantee that there will no charge and my aunt stubbornly, furiously, and under any circumstances would not accept the "5%" possibility of paying £99

Edited by 4M2 (Sun 04-Aug-13 14:55:36)

I might do this and buy a corded phone. I just cant imagine it is anything in this house as nothing but the laptop has changed. I am currently connected on the test socket as well.

Current stats


ADSL Line Status
Connection Information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 2 days, 01:45:22
Downstream: 1.281 Mbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps

ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type: Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up): 7.1 dB / 17.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 57.3 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 15.8 dBm / 12.3 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 2023617 / 135
CRC Events (Down/Up): 245 / 9
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up): 747 / 8
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 74 / 15

In reply to a post by colic:

I might do this and buy a corded phone. I just cant imagine it is anything in this house as nothing but the laptop has changed. I am currently connected on the test socket as well.

Current stats


ADSL Line Status
Connection Information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 2 days, 01:45:22
Downstream: 1.281 Mbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps

ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type: Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up): 7.1 dB / 17.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 57.3 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 15.8 dBm / 12.3 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 2023617 / 135
CRC Events (Down/Up): 245 / 9
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up): 747 / 8
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 74 / 15

I really hate, I mean loathe, I mean despise the way BT go about engineer call outs. I know that most ISPs are the same but I got stung by BT for a fault on the line outside my house. I clearly contested it and got the charge removed. With Sky, they assured me that as long as I was in the TEST socket there was no charge ever being passed onto me. I said to them 'what if no fault is found' they said 'we swallow the charge.' I know they have the pockets to swallow these charges due to their TV etc but it really really puts me off going elsewhere. If my BT line goes down honestly after my previous issues I would just shut it down.

BT would charge you if it's an issue in the house OR if the engineer arrives and finds no fault.

Looking at the broadband stats, there is no obvious fault. The errors are high but ultimately the line hasn't dropped for over 2 days. Usually when there is an external fault the broadband isn't totally stable. Given the situation where the sync just dropped, there's a fault there.

I would personally get them out. If a charge is raised contest it to the absolute upmost. I can help you out with that as I'm fully aware of how the system works having been billed myself and having to fight it. Luckily I was aware that the outside line was BTs property and they relented.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Sun 04-Aug-13 22:22:08)

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

In reply to a post by colic:

I might do this and buy a corded phone. I just cant imagine it is anything in this house as nothing but the laptop has changed. I am currently connected on the test socket as well.

Current stats


ADSL Line Status
Connection Information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 2 days, 01:45:22
Downstream: 1.281 Mbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps

ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type: Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up): 7.1 dB / 17.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 57.3 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 15.8 dBm / 12.3 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 2023617 / 135
CRC Events (Down/Up): 245 / 9
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up): 747 / 8
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 74 / 15

I really hate, I mean loathe, I mean despise the way BT go about engineer call outs. I know that most ISPs are the same but I got stung by BT for a fault on the line outside my house. I clearly contested it and got the charge removed. With Sky, they assured me that as long as I was in the TEST socket there was no charge ever being passed onto me. I said to them 'what if no fault is found' they said 'we swallow the charge.' I know they have the pockets to swallow these charges due to their TV etc but it really really puts me off going elsewhere. If my BT line goes down honestly after my previous issues I would just shut it down.

BT would charge you if it's an issue in the house OR if the engineer arrives and finds no fault.

Looking at the broadband stats, there is no obvious fault. The errors are high but ultimately the line hasn't dropped for over 2 days. Usually when there is an external fault the broadband isn't totally stable. Given the situation where the sync just dropped, there's a fault there.

I would personally get them out. If a charge is raised contest it to the absolute upmost. I can help you out with that as I'm fully aware of how the system works having been billed myself and having to fight it. Luckily I was aware that the outside line was BTs property and they relented.

So if Openreach were called out to repair a line which had been damaged by the householder or someone acting for the householder, replacing a window or a door frame perhaps or having the building rendered with cement without providing protection for an Openreach cable, you think that Openreach should cover the cost or repairs?

Good luck with that.

So if Openreach were called out to repair a line which had been damaged by the householder or someone acting for the householder, replacing a window or a door frame perhaps or having the building rendered with cement without providing protection for an Openreach cable, you think that Openreach should cover the cost or repairs?

Good luck with that.

I never said this. I nonetheless was charged for a cable outside of my property becoming damaged where the cabling was tight around a corner and in this sharp corner the cable was damaged, brittle & water was getting inside. Clearly this was nothing to do with me, the engineer had installed it this way way before I lived there. My call out fee was around £200.

I was also charged when a cable behind the test socket came out. The cabling to the master was literally as minimal as could be. The test socket faceplate couldn't even be pulled out as the dropwire was that tight. This was clearly why the cabling had become damaged. Not to mention BT had installed it in a single glazed bay window and the socket and cabling was often becoming damp. In this situation BT openreach really should have moved the master, so that the cabling was not damaged by water any further, but the engineer refused to do this. He then went and put it down as a fault with my internal wiring and kept saying 'there's no chance this would come out alone' during his visit. This would have cost me around £135 in engineer fees.

BT charged me for this. It took me around 10 phone calls, numerous demanding letters and eventually a letter to the BT head office to get the charges removed. I was not in the wrong what so ever in any of these cases. A charge simply should not have been levied.

BT have been on BBC Watchdog due to their bad practices with regards to charging for call outs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y82K7EkOxHE

On the country, with Sky. I lived in a property with no master socket, fully star wired in my opinion. The line entered in the loft and what happened from there was a mystery... I had broadband services installed for students and there was no dial tone or broadband on activation date. BT openreach came out and there was a master socket found in the loft, from here all the extensions ran. The loft had no floorboards and was literally rafters. I simply didn't expect the socket to be here and I had shone a torch around and hadn't spotted it... When my Sky bill arrived there was a charge of almost £120. I rang Sky, explained the situation and after around 40 minutes the charge was removed. It wasn't painless, however it was easier than BT.
I have had faults with Sky which were not in my property and I was never charged. On both instances I was billed with BT.

I have so much respect for TalkTalk because they send out their own engineers who deal with internal wiring issues (quite largely). If a faults inside a property these guys are much cheaper than BT and get things resolved. Their expertise is questionable nonetheless.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Mon 05-Aug-13 00:36:02)

Wear and tear to cables fair enough they should be repaired within the cost of line rental.

When it comes to network termination this should really have been addressed at the same time that liberalised extension wiring was introduced in the eighties. New lines, overhead or underground should have terminated externally leaving all internal wiring the responsibility of the householder (or landlord) in much the same way as electrical wiring is. The external unit should have had a phone socket so if you get a dial tone there but not inside the problem is yours. The demarcation is clear. All services if OK at the external unit but poor because of internal problems would be in the hands of the individual to repair or improve.

The problem with the external unit that Openreach did trial was the lack of a socket to plug in a phone, so the householder has no idea if a fault was on his wiring or the network.

Edited by deleted (Mon 05-Aug-13 02:05:09)

In reply to a post by systemx:

When it comes to network termination this should really have been addressed at the same time that liberalised extension wiring was introduced in the eighties. New lines, overhead or underground should have terminated externally leaving all internal wiring the responsibility of the householder (or landlord) in much the same way as electrical wiring is. The external unit should have had a phone socket so if you get a dial tone there but not inside the problem is yours. The demarcation is clear. All services if OK at the external unit but poor because of internal problems would be in the hands of the individual to repair or improve.

Agreed. BT did run external NTE for some time but it wasn't a true solution and they switched back. Personally I think a policy needs to be adopted which makes the charges a lot more transparent and fool proof.

In reply to a post by systemx:

The external unit should have had a phone socket so if you get a dial tone there but not inside the problem is yours.

Actually I prefer to have a test socket indoors. Mains electricity switch, before the fuse box, indoors also - external electric meter is OK though

Well the BT engineer came on Friday and I am still having issues One of the first questions I asked him was could it be the homehub but he seemed to dismiss that and presume he did his standard checks then.

He unplugged the router stuck his device in then it synched at 3.5Mbps which he was quite surprised about and said out loud "that's strange" he then looked outside the property at the wiring that goes straight under the ground not through telephone posts.

He then said he needed to go to the cabinet and on his return he said that he had swapped the line for a spare one at the cabinet. He then did some further tests outside of the property, then came inside and replaced the master socket (this was only fit two years ago by BT)

Then he left and said to keep an eye on it, within 2 hours the line dropped and res-synched at a lower speed. It has been connected at the lower speed for two days now, however I can no longer stream music to my Iphone through stream2me even though I could do yesterday. I know if I restart the router I will be able to connect again, it is as if the router locks up.

Also another reason as to why I think it is the router is that it says I have transmitted the following

Connection Information
Connection time: 2 days, 04:34:44
Data Transmitted/Received (GB): 0.3 / 0.3

I know that is compete rubbish as I have downloaded way more then that and on my bandwidth monitor application it states that I have downloaded 3gig in the past three days, the upload does look correct though.

Also below are the line stats which I have a question about, with all these errors would I notice anything? Like slower speed, corrupted downloads? as I do not notice anything even though there does appear to be lots of errors showing.

ADSL Line Status
Connection Information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 2 days, 04:34:04
Downstream: 2.844 Mbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps

ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type: Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up): 7.0 dB / 17.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 58.4 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 18.9 dBm / 12.3 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 212566 / 164
CRC Events (Down/Up): 446 / 55
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up): 3116 / 37
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 261 / 144

Edited by deleted (Sun 11-Aug-13 19:17:08)

can you not turn the router off at 10pm and phone at 10am and say the router is broken, can they send another one please... or buy a spare from ebay.

Is it a homehub if so it gets the transmit amount totally wrong always.