Dates changed yet again!

BT are a complete bunch of muppets as far as I am concerned. My original date for my cab was 31st Sept 2010, then Dec 31st, then 30th March and now shoved way back to June 30th! My exhange which is Putney, has been Live since Dec 10. 9 months behind just put that date in the first place rather than changing every 5 mins!

Feel you pain mate. Mine was 31st March and now it's 30th June....

Only joined BT 5 weeks ago as I was told I would be on Total BB then upgrade to FTTC end of March...not impressed especially as I;ve had to buy a router to replace the HH" as I've had 2 now which are rotten...Could have coped for another couple of weeks, but not months...

BT are cretins. I'm in exactly the same boat same dates, same changes. Apparently my exchange is enabled, they just haven't gotten round to doing my cabinet (despite the Openreach vans leaving the area in the autumn).

If they had said last summer it wouldn't be available for a year I'd take that at face value and not care. But the fact that they keep saying it'll be available and then delaying another quarter is immensely frustrating.

I think anybody in this situation needs to adopt the view that BT has no intention of ever enabling your cabinet. If they ever decide to you'll get a concrete date in the checker and an e-mail notification (assuming you've signed up for one).

I bet you most of us with this problem will see 30th September 2011 on the checker before we see FTTC.

Snap same here

Yes Mine has changed to 30June as well. Got My new router all ready,hope that some of the larger ISp's get on the bandwagon before then.

Sign up for Virgin?

Same here, the exchange is live, my dates have been shifted 4 times to the 30th of June, even though my cab is installed and humming away.

Another "me too" post here...

My cabinet was originally installed last autumn, like many others in the area - with the exchange originally slated for September 2010. The power was due to be done in October.

The exchange went live in December, with people able to order from surrounding cabinets, but not ours. Instead, our dates changed about 6 times (in the space of 10 days in mid-December) amongst December, March, June, and September. It finally settled to March 30th, and has sat there for the last 3 months.

Then, in early February, the cabinet got visited by the power company again, with full roadworks going across the road. Whoopee, I thought, but there was no change to the date...

Now the roadworks are back again (they're again for the power company), and the date has changed to June 30th.

I can only agree that I truly wouldn't care if BT originally published a date and then stuck to it. But the current system is just a joke.

And it provokes a word of warning - if BT can't get power sorted to a cabinet within 6 months, and can't get it live more than 3 moths after all the others - what standard of availability & support can we expect in the event of a failure? Is the country going to start depending on unsupportable equipment?

Same here...

Though SamKnows shows it as all up and running... which I am inclined to have more faith in, since they showed 1/3/11 - then 11/3/11 which changed to Available last night.

Meanwhile BT is now 30th June as per the rest of you....

Just not sure whats going on anymore.

Does SamKnows know about individual cabinets? I thought all their data was at an exchange level.

It is certainly harder to get more localised information after the exchange goes live, with the initial batch of cabinets, if you are not in that initial batch. You are pretty much reliant on BT Wholesale's checker, checking on individual phone numbers.

In reply to a post by peaks:

Same here...

Though SamKnows shows it as all up and running... which I am inclined to have more faith in, since they showed 1/3/11 - then 11/3/11 which changed to Available last night.

Meanwhile BT is now 30th June as per the rest of you....

Just not sure whats going on anymore.

What does the IDNet checker say?

I would say that for everybody that is unsure what is going on to write to the BT head office and ask for clarification and why do the dates fluctute around so much.

At the least that means somebody will have to write a letter back to you.

The problem if you have worked in any large corportae enviroment is one of miscommunication or no communication between parts of the company.

Perhaps if enough people ask the same questions then BT head office may look at what is going on lower down in the management structure.

Thats what I did via an email and the answer I had back was by the end of this month for sure.
So it's worth emailing Ian Livingston.

WWWombat

Ever thought that this may be the power companies fault not directly BTs. If they tell BT they can do it in Oct, then fail and move the date to Feb and mess up again, Now they are back again is it any wonder BT move the date back to June!. Maybe if they succeed this time you will get it before June. It sure won't work without the power.

Accepted, and I know my case is a relatively special one. But unless I actually go past the cabinet and see roadworks with a sign attributing them to the power company, my frustration lies with BT. It is BT that feed the information to us, after all.

Perhaps BT should check out the wave of frustration they cause in mid-March, mid-June, mid-Sept and mid-Dec when, en-mass, they move everyone's dates back by 3 months.

The problem therefore, is all to do with the dates they're giving us, and their practice of using placeholders at the end of each quarter, and the mass shifting of the placeholders. The solution is to have a different way of managing expectations.

Samknows is exchange level. In other words they'll show an exchange as enabled if 1 cabinet has been set up. My exchange has been showing like that since last summer but plenty of people in my town aren't on enabled cabinets yet.

The dates are just estimates really. There is a lot of work in installing fibre to numerous cabinets, often miles from the exchange, and then actually installing the cabinets themselves. Maybe there are unforeseen problems at the exchange or some bit of road needs dug up and the council or residents kick up a fuss. Then you need to have enough engineers trained up to actually set it up in people homes. No point saying "whoop there it is!" and then because you get a thousand orders and have 2 bods trained up you start quoting "we can send an engineer round next August".

Point is there is a lot of work involved so they're not going to hit every single date. In any event, theres little way of inferring from the date what it means. 1 cabinet? 10? Your one? Your mates one?

Would no information at all be better? If they just kept quiet then no one would have anything to complain about.

But we all know what would happen if BT decided tomorrow to just remove all the dates entirely. This forum would probably buckle under the next thing to rage about.

When they were installing the new cabs around us the the power company whas working next to them

Easy to knock the knockers when you are already enabled to be fair?

Edited by mrnelster (Tue 15-Mar-11 17:34:34)

In reply to a post by mrnelster:

Easy to knock the knockers when you are already enabled to be fair?

Not that I'd ever knock knockers?

I should hope not

Not really. Wasn't able to even get ADSL where I lived until 5 years after the exchange was upgraded despite friends a couple of streets away having it since release.

I know what it's like to be left out.

But on this site and forum we have people variously complaining:

"they aren't rolling it out fast enough!" but...
"they did my neighbours cabinet but not mine!" and...
"Why can some Welsh villagers get it? I live in London and can't!"
"The date keeps changing! This isn't good enough!"

The nub of it is BT is a for-profit business. If people are complaining they need to complain to the government for paying lip service to the whole thing. If you go to the far east they get their wallets out and it shows. Here* the government blusters.

*Not including N.Ireland which does actually get more money pumped in and therefore has far superior coverage to just about anywhere else in Western Europe.

But on this site and forum we have people variously complaining:

And there they were thinking that sharing their grievances with like minded individuals was somehow therapeutic.

Luckily you were on hand representing the thought police, to make sure they knew how pointless an exercise that would be?

In reply to a post by orly:

Would no information at all be better? If they just kept quiet then no one would have anything to complain about.

But we all know what would happen if BT decided tomorrow to just remove all the dates entirely. This forum would probably buckle under the next thing to rage about.

No, I don't think that zero information would be an improvement. But I do think that the current practice of date estimates being the end of a quarter is a bad one; shifting dates by 90 days shortly before expiry is the most frustrating aspect.

At work, we don't do projects where we suddenly announce to the customer that there's a 3 month delay, 1 week before he expects delivery.

How about providing a range, and move the range more regularly? It would probably be wide at first, and would narrow down as the tasks were achieved - by pulling the end-date in as things go right, and by pushing the start-date back when some of the semi-expected delays happen. If tasks weren't achieved (something not expected at all), then the range would stay wide *and* would head backwards week-by-week.

You can bet that the project managers do know this information. Its all about whether it can be presented to the public in the right way.

Oh - I'd also add a new set of information. I'd keep the public informed about the date ranges for ongoing fill-in work for an exchange too. That stuff is missing entirely at present - so if you are not in the first batch of cabinets, you have no clue as to whether you'll ever get fibre.

In this case it is.

No dates will magically change because of what people desire or complain about.

It's essentially a case of "when it's ready it's ready..."

Nee naa nee naa nee naa!

You in MK where the big roll out is going on? I have had the same and am really anoyed as when I spoke to BT on signing up from a nother ISP there was no mention of delays in my area and end of Dec 2010 was all go.
I know there can be issues on such a roll out, but 6 months plus. Give me a break

In reply to a post by kitcat:

WWWombat

Ever thought that this may be the power companies fault not directly BTs. If they tell BT they can do it in Oct, then fail and move the date to Feb and mess up again, Now they are back again is it any wonder BT move the date back to June!. Maybe if they succeed this time you will get it before June. It sure won't work without the power.

I doubt it is the power companies fault they are pretty good nowadays mind you if BT kep changing the schedules at the drop of the hat then it will cause the power companies problems as they will have their work scheduled out for months and will not be able to just drop everything because BT suddenly moves the goal posts and thi seem to be going on all over the country.

I would be pretty sure it is BT's pthetic planning that is causing the problems

In reply to a post by orly:

In this case it is.

No dates will magically change because of what people desire or complain about.

It's essentially a case of "when it's ready it's ready..."

That probably sums up nicely BT's atude towards its customers and its approach to planning.

Do you seriously think that most business would get away with that. If I told my customer a week before they were expecting a project to be completed it had move 3 months they would be pretty angree and talking penalty payments & I would not blame them but there people on here like you that think it is ok for BT to behave like this. I bet if they were facing real competition their approch would change.

This sorts of thing shows why the local loop should be removed from BT and should be provided by a seperate company that just supplies the local loop

If would be akin to the electricity market. The National grid supplies the UK network & competing companies provided the end users

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

In reply to a post by kitcat:

WWWombat

Ever thought that this may be the power companies fault not directly BTs. If they tell BT they can do it in Oct, then fail and move the date to Feb and mess up again, Now they are back again is it any wonder BT move the date back to June!. Maybe if they succeed this time you will get it before June. It sure won't work without the power.

I doubt it is the power companies fault they are pretty good nowadays mind you if BT kep changing the schedules at the drop of the hat then it will cause the power companies problems as they will have their work scheduled out for months and will not be able to just drop everything because BT suddenly moves the goal posts and thi seem to be going on all over the country.

I would be pretty sure it is BT's pthetic planning that is causing the problems

I disagree, at least around here in South London. Our FTTC cabinet was installed and wired for fibre last September - I saw the BT guys doing it. Since then a trench from the FTTC cabinet to a power cable under the nearby pavement was dug up by different sub-contractors, filled in, and then re-dug a total of 3 time so far, the last being 5 days ago. AIUI, the sub-contractors will have been tasked by the power company, not by BT who will have simply asked the power company to install power to the FTTC cabinet.

Judging by the pile of infill hardcore that has just been deposited there yet again yesterday, I strongly suspect that the power still hasn't been connected. The grass verge has disappeared into a mire of mud, hardcore and asphalt which was not caused by BT but, no doubt, some will be blaming them.

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

In reply to a post by orly:

In this case it is.

No dates will magically change because of what people desire or complain about.

It's essentially a case of "when it's ready it's ready..."

That probably sums up nicely BT's atude towards its customers and its approach to planning.

Do you seriously think that most business would get away with that. If I told my customer a week before they were expecting a project to be completed it had move 3 months they would be pretty angree and talking penalty payments & I would not blame them but there people on here like you that think it is ok for BT to behave like this. I bet if they were facing real competition their approch would change.

This sorts of thing shows why the local loop should be removed from BT and should be provided by a seperate company that just supplies the local loop

If would be akin to the electricity market. The National grid supplies the UK network & competing companies provided the end users

I don't think it is always to do with the local loop. Local experience here shows that it is bad planning and incompetence of sub-contractors on behalf of the power company. BT are not permitted to install their own connections to the power cable.

Well did I get a shock this morning or what, As I do I check every morning to see how long for Infinity and yesterday it was still June 2011 but today it told me NOW
I nearly fell out of my chair, so I logged onto my BT account to see if I could order it and Lo and behold I could and so I did, getting done 5th April, so hopefully bye bye slow speed hello fast speed.

iechyd da

That's great, now if BT would only get my cab sorted. Still showing 30th June

You on Llantrisant Exchange???????
I've just checked friends phone Nos and some are still showing June 2011 and some are live

iechyd da

Edited by deleted (Wed 23-Mar-11 11:13:14)

No, Haslington but having the same problem as you. Almost getting there and then the date moving, the FTTC cab has been in place for a couple of months now but nothing else seems to have happened.

C'mon BT get a move on

I'm still in shock to be honest as I tho it would be end of the year with all the changes, so over night it changed, The dull thing is that somebody had to know it was happening but no1 said a word. Lets hope yours get sorted soon

iechyd da

Look if BT keep moving the dates it is BT that is the problem. The power companies cannot just change the dates. BT needs to come up with rollout schedules that are robust. Sure some will still slip but at the moment the power companies have not a clue as to when their services will be neeed so how can they sschedule the work? All they can do is schedule to what BT stated but that is little more then fiction.

It is no complected to install the power the power line will usualy be within a few metres of the cabinet. It is BT's inability to schedule things thats the problem.
Most people have had first hand experience of it. You schedule an Enginer visit. Wait in all day and they dont turn up. No aplogy and no explanation neither

Do you see any other business even attempting to invest as much as BT are?

It goes both ways.

I think I'd be in shock too and probably will be when it happens here. A hole appeared last week a few metres away from the FTTC cab. I wonder if that is for power as there was a hole there a few weeks ago but it got filled in along with all the others by the cab.

In Bridgend the company that have been putting in the DSLAM's have put them in the wrong place and they have to be moved, so maybe thats your area also??.

Bob I have said enuff about the roll-out of BT Fibre to my exchange and I agree with you and also agree with orly.
This afternoon I had an email from Ceri who is a Regional Manager based in South Wales and is responsible for delivery of BT Regions strategy locally, after I send an email to Ian Livingston asking me if things are sorted now, In my reply I told her about the bad PR that BT is getting about the RFS dates around the country and said that they need to explain to people why the dates are pushed back, I even told her to check this Forum and BT Forum, and she came back to me saying she is going to bring this up cos it does look bad.
iechyd da

This has always been a problem for BT/Openreach.

For us more inquisitive folk they can never release enough information but there are likely plenty of reasons why they keep some stuff hidden.

I'm sure quite a few people on here would love them to release data or have a spiffy website that maps all the cabinets, tells you how many subscribers, colour codes those getting upgraded and shows the date. Have a little popup that shows the progress.

Would be lovely.

In reply to a post by paul1360:

This afternoon I had an email from Ceri who is a Regional Manager based in South Wales and is responsible for delivery of BT Regions strategy locally, after I send an email to Ian Livingston

Well, blow me down with a feather. My date has just changed from 30th June (which it became last week) to ... tomorrow.

Is there a coincidence in the fact that I sent an email to Ian Livingstone too?

Dates can change to your advantage as well as your disadvantage.

Doubt any emails sent have anything to do with it.

In reply to a post by paul1360:

In Bridgend the company that have been putting in the DSLAM's have put them in the wrong place and they have to be moved, so maybe thats your area also??.

iechyd da

You mean the FTTC cabs? The way they have installed the cabs here seems mostly random, I suppose they will get around to finishing off my cab eventually.

Edit: Just had a listen to my cab and it now has power, so hopefully not long now

Edited by TheHorseman (Wed 23-Mar-11 21:42:28)

TheHorseman

Yes the Cabs were put in places close to the Electric supply and not near BT cabs which meant that sometimes they were to far from the Cab and also it then left BT having to do a lot of work that the other company had been paid for, Just spoke to a BT OR guy outside and he told me it's not just around here but in a lot of places in UK.
WWW. Can't answer that 1 sorry

iechyd da

Edited by deleted (Thu 24-Mar-11 14:47:17)

Power cabling is buried direct and telecoms are usually ducted, so it makes sense to keep the new cab closer to the existing one.

The only time I have seen power cables ducted is when they are tunnelled under an existing road, or when an adequate depth cannot be reached. In the latter case the ABS plastic duct acts as added protection. Not really acceptable as of the wiring regulations (BS7671) but the power utilities seem to get away with it under their own guidelines.

I not saying that power cables have to be run in ducting at all. But I have seen power cables run in ducting,conduit etc many times, in fact have done it my self back in the day.
What I was saying is that I'd been told that the new cabs were put in places that made the job easier for the firm and not BT, hence in the wrong place.

iechyd da

In reply to a post by paul1360:

I not saying that power cables have to be run in ducting at all. But I have seen power cables run in ducting,conduit etc many times, in fact have done it my self back in the day.
What I was saying is that I'd been told that the new cabs were put in places that made the job easier for the firm and not BT, hence in the wrong place.

iechyd da

Power cables are now normally ducted for new instalations. There is also a colur coding system. The main ones are listed below:-

Red - Electric Power

Orange - Telecoms

Yellow - Gas/oil

Green - Sewers & Drains

Blue - Drinking Water

Edited by deleted (Fri 25-Mar-11 07:58:10)

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

Power cables are now normally ducted for new instalations. There is also a colur coding system. The main ones are listed below:-

Red - Electric Power

Orange - Telecoms

Yellow - Gas/oil

Green - Sewers & Drains

Blue - Drinking Water

When you use Wikipedia, check which country the page is applicable to...
In the UK, it's:
Telecoms - Grey
CATV - Green
Traffic Signalling - Purple
Rail Signalling - Orange
Gas - Yellow
Water - Blue
Electricity - Red (although it can also be black for LV).

Although it can perhaps be argued that what can come down CATV could be sewerage...

Edited by deleted (Fri 25-Mar-11 08:43:04)

I know. I was agreeing with you!

I was pointing out why your observation was valid. It makes more sense to fit cabs closer to the telecoms service.

Power cables are now normally ducted for new instalations. There is also a colur coding system. The main ones are listed below:-

That's correct. Emphasis on the now part though. But FTTC is generally retro fitting so most of the services to be altered won't necessarily be.

.....but the power utilities seem to get away with it under their own guidelines.

My cabinet has just had a duct driven under the road for the power to the cabinet. The trench either end are open with the LV supply cable visible and awaiting the jointing team.

Three guesses what the duct colour is? You may use your text books.

Edit: By the way, I'm not having a dig at the utility jointing guys (no pun intended). I've been in the electrical contracting game for 20 years. It's a dangerous way to make a living and they do a stirling job.

Edited by mrnelster (Sat 26-Mar-11 09:56:00)

"sterling".

Stirling is in Scotland. No doubt there are utility staff doing stirling jobs there, but ... .

In reply to a post by mrnelster:

Three guesses what the duct colour is? You may use your text books.

My NRSW licence has long since expired, but reality is there's always the possibility of a difference between what should be installed and what is.
The recommendation from the NJUC is that either red or black is acceptable. Installations should also be covered with a yellow/black marker tape approx 6" below the surface.

......but reality is there's always the possibility of a difference between what should be installed and what is.

And as with all industries thats exactly what happens.

We would install all cabling below ground as armoured, min 450mm depth, blinded with sand before compaction and black/yellow warning tape 6-8" below the finished level. Not everybody does however.

I remember back in 2001 a utility company changing supplies from overhead to underground in a street in Buckinghamshire. The concrete paths were lifted but no further excavation. The cables were then laid in black plastic ducting directly onto the old path's oversite and the concrete path replaced.

The concrete will protect the cable from a spade or fork. But the ducting won't protect it from a jackhammer! That's why many sites generally state no forks to be used on site by groundworkers, only spades.

In reply to a post by mrnelster:

......but reality is there's always the possibility of a difference between what should be installed and what is.

And as with all industries thats exactly what happens.

We would install all cabling below ground as armoured, min 450mm depth, blinded with sand before compaction and black/yellow warning tape 6-8" below the finished level. Not everybody does however.

I remember back in 2001 a utility company changing supplies from overhead to underground in a street in Buckinghamshire. The concrete paths were lifted but no further excavation. The cables were then laid in black plastic ducting directly onto the old path's oversite and the concrete path replaced.

The concrete will protect the cable from a spade or fork. But the ducting won't protect it from a jackhammer! That's why many sites generally state no forks to be used on site by groundworkers, only spades.

The standard is folowed for new work but there is lot of old stuff to no standard. Many power cables were armoured and just buried. It does of cause not make it easy for them to be seen when digging up roads etc

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

In reply to a post by paul1360:

I not saying that power cables have to be run in ducting at all. But I have seen power cables run in ducting,conduit etc many times, in fact have done it my self back in the day.
What I was saying is that I'd been told that the new cabs were put in places that made the job easier for the firm and not BT, hence in the wrong place.

iechyd da

Power cables are now normally ducted for new instalations. There is also a colur coding system. The main ones are listed below:-

Red - Electric Power

Orange - Telecoms

Yellow - Gas/oil

Green - Sewers & Drains

Blue - Drinking Water

Red duct is only used in TTTC situations and even then very rarely, it is normally black. There is no pre-requesite for ducting but is more convenient as the highway is dug up for a shorter period and makes cable installation easier as the duct can be installed back filled and the cable pulled in at a later date with only jointing positions re-excavated.

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

In reply to a post by mrnelster:

......but reality is there's always the possibility of a difference between what should be installed and what is.

And as with all industries thats exactly what happens.

We would install all cabling below ground as armoured, min 450mm depth, blinded with sand before compaction and black/yellow warning tape 6-8" below the finished level. Not everybody does however.

I remember back in 2001 a utility company changing supplies from overhead to underground in a street in Buckinghamshire. The concrete paths were lifted but no further excavation. The cables were then laid in black plastic ducting directly onto the old path's oversite and the concrete path replaced.

The concrete will protect the cable from a spade or fork. But the ducting won't protect it from a jackhammer! That's why many sites generally state no forks to be used on site by groundworkers, only spades.

The standard is folowed for new work but there is lot of old stuff to no standard. Many power cables were armoured and just buried. It does of cause not make it easy for them to be seen when digging up roads etc

Funnily that's why the utilities keep records of cable, pipe etc locations. It is an offence to dig up the public highway without the correct information.

Red duct is only used in TTTC situations and even then very rarely, it is normally black. There is no pre-requesite for ducting....

And pulling into ducting for power is more difficult than comms. The larger cable sizes don't go through ducting as fibre or multi pair does. I've yet to see one blown through.

And power utilities often have to joint or repair cables. They can't build a new access chamber every time, which means any chemical joints are installed external to the ducting. You can't pull a bullet through the ducting.

I assume that damaged comms lines would have the affected link rewired and joined at an existing access chamber? Wouldn't imagine a buried comms joint anyway.

Edited by mrnelster (Sun 27-Mar-11 16:32:00)

Aye, hauling EHV cables needs a bigger winch .
Have plenty of buried comms joints next to EHV feeders
Yes, DNO's do have their own comms networks, I have cables over 100 years old in my network and still going strong. Jointer's hate them, all paper and lead

I have cables over 100 years old in my network and still going strong. Jointer's hate them, all paper and lead

Lol! Next time I start bitchin' about finding vulcanised rubber cables in an installation, I will try to remember there is always somebody worse off than me. I get to turn 'em off first!

Stirling is in Scotland. No doubt there are utility staff doing stirling jobs there, but ... .

Oops! Flamin spellchecker?

VIR yum, still got some of that in places, take deep breath and shut the door gently on the way out

wow that brings back the days when I used to joint them

iechyd da