Why do BT fibre only certain cabs?

I know this might have been answered elsewhere on the forum, but i am perplexed as to why openreach seem only fibre half of an area, when more subscribers would join if they did every cab, i've read a section on this on BT's community forums and one exscuse was your cabinet might not be compatible with BT infinity.
!!WHAT!!! ? will it explode if you tried to connect it? the last thing i thought would create a digital divide would be BT itself. i would be facinated as to the real reasons why openreach exclude certain areas. {economics can't be one}

In reply to a post by creakycopperline:

I know this might have been answered elsewhere on the forum, but i am perplexed as to why openreach seem only fibre half of an area, when more subscribers would join if they did every cab, i've read a section on this on BT's community forums and one exscuse was your cabinet might not be compatible with BT infinity.
!!WHAT!!! ? will it explode if you tried to connect it? the last thing i thought would create a digital divide would be BT itself. i would be facinated as to the real reasons why openreach exclude certain areas. {economics can't be one}

Economics is the only one. If there aren't enough lines on a cabinet or it's expensive to enable due to ducting problems or excess construction to the extent where it's unlikely for Openreach to get a return on their investment within whatever their threshold time is they won't do it.

It's nothing personal. All about the pounds sterling.

so it's 512 kbps till i die eh? thank you BT monopoly free to do as we please market.

You can move house Unless of course it's not economically viable

and the next owner can enjoy slowdsl, knew this was a BT cronie site.

Why have a go at just BT?

Shouldn't you be asking Virgin as well as to why they have not cabled your area?

BT has been a private company working under restrictions to allow competion to grow for close on 30 years now. Why should it provide fibre at a huge loss when the competitors have no interest in these markets.

Oh dear ...........

In reply to a post by creakycopperline:

so it's 512 kbps till i die eh? thank you BT monopoly free to do as we please market.

Well it's not a monopoly for you at the moment. Other telcos are free to install their cabinet.

But if it's not economically viable what do you expect BT to do? If they install the cabinet they will make a loss on it and we'll have to carry the cost - in other words we'd be paying for you to have FTTC. I suggest you talk to your council and everyone in your area. See if it's possible to get some additional funding organising. Try and make that cabinet look more viable.

There's really no point getting all personal about it as has already been said. If BT can't afford to do it then likely no-one else can either. It's just economics.

In reply to a post by creakycopperline:

and the next owner can enjoy slowdsl, knew this was a BT cronie site.

LOL someone get his/her/its dummy off the floor, bet there the same as the woman i was behind in morrisons yesterday wineing at the manager that the 5p per litre thing they do now and then isnt good value anymore and unless they made it 10p per litre she would go elsewhere. as for slagging off the forums just because you didnt get the answer you wanted AND the first line of your post saying its prob been answered but im to lazy to look, well you aint going to get mates that way.

but because im a nice man i will offer some help for your mega slow connection (even tho i once lived a year in a place where dialup was faster then adsl) try looking here for 10Mbps+........ http://www.toowaydirect.com/


AndyC

In reply to a post by creakycopperline:

I knew this was a BT cronie site.

That doesn't look like a very mature attitude.

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 25-Mar-12 10:09:12)

Remember Infinity is just the name BT Retail gives the service, TalkTalk and Sky also sell the Openreach GEA FTTC service.

As for why not all? Imagine the outcry when every single cabinet inside the M25 was enabled following your line of thinking....and then only one or two more cities around the UK?

Openreach has a target of 2/3rd UK population by 2014, and this means lots of gaps. The next 23% should hopefully benefit from BDUK projects, which may or may not be BT based. Ten cities got given £100m between them last week to improve broadband by UK Gov, and £50m for another smaller ten cities.

So all is not lost, just it is not happening to a timescale you would like.

In reply to a post by creakycopperline:

I know this might have been answered elsewhere on the forum, but i am perplexed as to why openreach seem only fibre half of an area, when more subscribers would join if they did every cab, I've read a section on this on BT's community forums and one exscuse was your cabinet might not be compatible with BT infinity.
!!WHAT!!! ? will it explode if you tried to connect it? the last thing i thought would create a digital divide would be BT itself. i would be facinated as to the real reasons why openreach exclude certain areas. {economics can't be one}

I did ask Tony Estcourt,Product Manager at BT this very question last week and he hadn't a clue and neither have i

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/tony-estcourt/5/2b2/607

As BT Wholesale is just an Openreach customer in the same way TalkTalk is, then that should be no surprise.

If you want the ultimate answer....

Its because of the poor decision by politicians to privatise BT in 1982.

ultimately, thats why we are in the terrible position we are in now. We have had a total lack of investment in this utility almost since the day it was privatised. the network remained stagnant for decades. Its a utility that people cannot do without. selling it off was the mistake.
Business is all about making the most profit, for the least investment. hence you don't get a cabinet, but the bloke at the end of the road does.
Its the same concept with the Post Office (our local collection office closed, nearest one 5 miles away now).
or any other service that the government decides.
(Party Political Broadcast bit)

all three current main parties have let you, and the British people down, generation after generation. you just have to open your eyes to see it.

In reply to a post by creakycopperline:

so it's 512 kbps till i die eh? thank you BT monopoly free to do as we please market.

If your only getting 512k then I would suggest raising a fault with your ISP, as I just picked a random house from your postcode, and the BT wholesale checker states this:

For Address 21 LYNFIELD DRIVE, LIVERSEDGE, WF15 8HH on Exchange CLECKHEATON

Your exchange is ADSL enabled, and our initial check on your address indicates that your line should be able to have an ADSL broadband service that provides a fixed line speed up to 2Mbps.

Our check also indicates that your line currently supports an estimated ADSL Max broadband line speed of 5Mbps; typically the line speed would range between 3.5Mbps and 7.5Mbps.

Our check also indicates that your line currently supports an estimated ADSL2+ broadband line speed of 6Mbps; typically the line speed would range between 4Mbps and 8Mbps. Our test also indicates that your line could support an estimated ADSL 2+ Annex-M broadband upstream line speed of 1Mbps and downstream line speed of 6Mbps; typically the downstream speed would range between 4Mbps and 8Mbps.

And the checkers normally under estimate things, my speed is estimated about the same as above but I connect at around 11meg

Edit: Sam knows states the above address is 1361m from the exchange, for my address it shows me as 1600m, so you should be getting far faster than you are.

Edited by R0NSKI (Sun 25-Mar-12 14:22:57)

Even if BT had remained GPO in state hands, I doubt it would have flourished. We'd have still had 10 to 20 year upgrade programmes

BT has removed Strowger, installed System X, installed Collossus ATM network, which is is being replaced by 21CN. Over the last 30 years fibre has crept into the network, to the point where the last remaining copper bits are the local loop, and this is slowly transforming.

Look at the state run BDUK projects, hardly an inspiration for fast moving, rapid to react to changing requirements are they.

BT could have invested more, but then so could every teleco in the UK. Cable co's bankrupted themselves rolling out their FTTN network to half the UK.

It seems that there is a massive amount of people who think they are entilited to anything and everything.

It's not just the riots last year although it brought to a head, there are the higher rate tax payers screaming on the media that they were going to lose their child benefit.

You have pensioners moaning that their tax allowence is capped until the rest of the country catches up.

And you have people screaming that BT has personally insulted them by not upgrading their cabinet. I have even seen one post on another forum saying that there is a conspiracy over why BT won't upgrade their cabinet.

It seems that the "I'm alright Jack" from the 50's has now turned into "gimme gimme gimme or I will scream and scream until I do get it." attitude of the 21'st century.

If you want FTTC get 200 people on your cabinet to shell out £200 each and then Openreach will happily come and upgradde it for you.

By the way I bet very few people will go down that route as when it is time to stump up cash people don't half get deep pockets with short arms.

In reply to a post by Moradin:

If you want the ultimate answer....

Its because of the poor decision by politicians to privatise BT in 1982.

ultimately, thats why we are in the terrible position we are in now. We have had a total lack of investment in this utility almost since the day it was privatised. the network remained stagnant for decades. Its a utility that people cannot do without. selling it off was the mistake.
Business is all about making the most profit, for the least investment. hence you don't get a cabinet, but the bloke at the end of the road does.
Its the same concept with the Post Office (our local collection office closed, nearest one 5 miles away now).
or any other service that the government decides.
(Party Political Broadcast bit)

all three current main parties have let you, and the British people down, generation after generation. you just have to open your eyes to see it.

Actually it was some shocking poor descions coming from previous givernments in the 60's and 70's which started the problems off.

In 1979 the new Conservative gvernment saw how much the contry owed due to over spending by the last Labour government and to balence the books had to sell off the country's assets.

Of course in the enlightened 21st Century governments don't overspend and so we don't get into massive debt spirals.....oh wait we still do.

If you want it so much and you are on an enabled / announced exchnage then look to fund the cab deployment by Openreach by yourselves via your local community

actually it's not really mbps its measured in kbps,
kilobits or bytes.



[IMG]http://www.speedtest.net/result/1855322499.png[/IMG]

Edited by deleted (Sun 25-Mar-12 17:50:03)

Post deleted by BatBoy

comments like that just vindicate my satement, and that tooway site. wireless isn't the answer overpiced and underperforming. and hackable too. £54 a month for 10 meg? you must be joking.

Post deleted by BatBoy

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

As BT Wholesale is just an Openreach customer in the same way TalkTalk is, then that should be no surprise.

Agree with you Andrew but overall i still maintain their overall logic doesn't stack up

Like where i live all the avenue outside my estate has been done but not us as where on the corner where is the logic in that

It's like when your decorating the inside of your house you start say in the lounge and work through to the dining room you don't stop and say I'll go and paint the upstairs bathroom instead

I'm just glad i grew up with a strong Japanese ethic and just very sad that in retirement times have changed to an extent where there is no rhyme or reason to anything

We seemed to find 60 billion for fraudulent bankers, and i wouldn't hold my breath for BD unknown.
and it's not entitled, it's give everyone the same choice. i bet most of those able to get fttc only web browse

except comments like that, when bt deploy its winged monkeys to pounce on descenters,

and if it's not economical, why do i have phone line in the first place?

but its not really mb's it's kilobytes

Post deleted by BatBoy

In reply to a post by creakycopperline:

so it's 512 kbps till i die eh? thank you BT monopoly free to do as we please market.

So your actually going a lot faster than you were implying, about 10 times faster if I've got my bits, bytes and megabytes correct.

In reply to a post by creakycopperline:

[IMG]http://www.speedtest.net/result/1855322499.png[/IMG]

I still think you should have a faster connection than what you do, given how close you are to the exchange, mind you may be just the time of day - I'm only getting about the same as you at the moment

http://speedtest.net/result/1855392204.png

My best one:

http://speedtest.net/result/1767485387.png Notice the time.

Because there is a universal service obligation on BT and Karoo requiring them to install a phone line for a standard fee (£125) even if it costs the firm up to £3000 to do so.

1. Because you chose to purchase one from a voice service provider.

2. Part of the agreement struck when BT/GPO was privatised. BT as was, and then Openreach, have a Universal Service Obligation to provide telephony across the UK.

The Mbps in the pasted part of Ronski's post is Mega bits per second.

In reply to a post by creakycopperline:

but its not really mb's it's kilobytes

You seem to be having problems with comprehension. One example being the speed test you posted which whilst rating your connection as D+ and SLOWER than 61% of all connections at the same time tells you that it is FASTER than 39% of all connections and I don't see many of that 39% having tantrums and throwing their dummy out of their prams in the way that you have done in this thread. Perhaps taking Business 101 would help you understand how BT, as a commercial company with shareholders whose money it uses for investment, comes to the decisions it does. Economics plays a VERY significant part when BT draws up its investment plans.

.

Let's face facts here, Nick.

Virgin / Telewest / Eurobell have been active in your town for 20 years.

Logic cuts both ways. My money is on Openreach deploying before Virgin.

Crawley has a highly competitive comms market. Fibre is in town from BT, Virgin, SSE, Global Crossing, Viatel, C&W and many more operators.

You chose to move to a 4 year old estate in the part of town where you did...

My village has no bus service after 6pm. No trains. No LLU and no 21C. Very limited gas and mains sewerage.

I kinda like it here though. However, If these services were important to me, I'd move.

FTTC/P will be available to more than half of the population by 2014. If you want it badly, you need to move to where more than half the population lives.

Edited by deleted (Sun 25-Mar-12 20:47:21)

In reply to a post by Moradin:

If you want the ultimate answer....

Its because of the poor decision by politicians to privatise BT in 1982.

ultimately, thats why we are in the terrible position we are in now. We have had a total lack of investment in this utility almost since the day it was privatised. the network remained stagnant for decades. Its a utility that people cannot do without. selling it off was the mistake.
Business is all about making the most profit, for the least investment. hence you don't get a cabinet, but the bloke at the end of the road does.
Its the same concept with the Post Office (our local collection office closed, nearest one 5 miles away now).
or any other service that the government decides.
(Party Political Broadcast bit)

all three current main parties have let you, and the British people down, generation after generation. you just have to open your eyes to see it.

You seem to be contradicting yourself there. You say:-

1) BT is lousy because it was privatised.
2) The Post Office is also lousy.

The Post Office has not been privatised. Post Offices are closing, reducing customer access. Telephone lines are not being removed, except from hardly-used telephone boxes. (When was the last time you wanted to use a telephone box, and were unable to find a convenient one? Or even a convenience one).

It seems therefore the privatisation method works better for customers.

we leave our telecoms industry to the free market, then why not our banking system, instead of bailout after bailout.
Robertos It seems therefore the privatisation method works better for customers.
not for customers who are in the final third, and i'm loving the troll accusations, wondered how long it would take for that to come up. why is it when someone points out BT's errors you immediately point to Vigin media
as a person to blame. and to offcom, i know you've said offcom refused openreach to upgrade in the nineties
so did they tell them not upgrade my cabinet?

Edited by deleted (Sun 25-Mar-12 21:20:00)

In reply to a post by Moradin:

If you want the ultimate answer....

Its because of the poor decision by politicians to privatise BT in 1982.

ultimately, thats why we are in the terrible position we are in now. We have had a total lack of investment in this utility almost since the day it was privatised. the network remained stagnant for decades. Its a utility that people cannot do without. selling it off was the mistake.
Business is all about making the most profit, for the least investment. hence you don't get a cabinet, but the bloke at the end of the road does.
Its the same concept with the Post Office (our local collection office closed, nearest one 5 miles away now).
or any other service that the government decides.
(Party Political Broadcast bit)

all three current main parties have let you, and the British people down, generation after generation. you just have to open your eyes to see it.

Quite so.

In the 80s BT offered the government that it would fibre up the country, as long as it was allowed to sell content over the resulting netwrok.

Maggie refused to allow this, citing the 'need for competition' and here we are.

Which makes you wonder what is the more likely reason ...

a) 'need for competition' ... let us all bow down and salute
b) the pal Murdoch, getting Sky off the ground, wouldn't allow it...

Mmmm, I wonder ...

Post deleted by BatBoy

Curiously, the Post Office has embarked on massive withdrawal from villages and towns. Post Office closures are widespread and the queues get longer.

Conversely Openreach Broadband has deployed to more places than get gas, mains sewerage or even TV reception.

The government should stick to running public services badly and remain as far away from broadband as possible.

The GPO doesn't do broadband. But if they did it would probably be the best party line broadband in the world.

In reply to a post by creakycopperline:

we leave our telecoms industry to the free market, then why not our banking system, instead of bailout after bailout.
Robertos It seems therefore the privatisation method works better for customers.
not for customers who are in the final third, and i'm loving the troll accusations, wondered how long it would take for that to come up. why is it when someone points out BT's errors you immediately point to Vigin media
as a person to blame. and to offcom, i know you've said offcom refused openreach to upgrade in the nineties
so did they tell them not upgrade my cabinet?

I assume the first line is addressed to MCM, as that is who you replied to.

The rest appears to be addressed to me. What on earth are you raving about? You seem to be attributing several random inventions to me, emanating so far as I can tell only from whatever is inside your head!

Which post(s) of mine are you objecting to anyway? I honestly have no idea which.

In reply to a post by partial:

Let's face facts here, Nick.

Virgin / Telewest / Eurobell have been active in your town for 20 years.

Logic cuts both ways. My money is on Openreach deploying before Virgin.

Crawley has a highly competitive comms market. Fibre is in town from BT, Virgin, SSE, Global Crossing, Viatel, C&W and many more operators.

You chose to move to a 4 year old estate in the part of town where you did...

My village has no bus service after 6pm. No trains. No LLU and no 21C. Very limited gas and mains sewerage.

I kinda like it here though. However, If these services were important to me, I'd move.

FTTC/P will be available to more than half of the population by 2014. If you want it badly, you need to move to where more than half the population lives.

you make a good point but at the time of moving from the town to where i am now which is only 3 miles in a straight line from the exchange it didn't cross my mind that we would be the last to get the fibre service as all of the mains services for the town itself emanate from just outside our estate / mobile masts/ water/ etc plus the fact we are the hub for the emergency services in the event of getting on to the runway in case of an emergency which is half a mile away

I myself would never need fibre if my ADSL2 line was reliable but that sadly hasn't been the case hence the need to move on to a more reliable system

The fact that BT isn't activating every cab is not an error, they haven't the money to please everyone... the fact they aren't FTTPing the whole country isn't an error, it's economics. The fact they aren't hiring thousands of people so that roll-out could be done in less than 5 years, isn't an error, it is economics...
VM is simply to point out that the same case applies, but in a far more potent way... the companies that rolled out cable to the most of the UK went bankrupt.

As for the final third, Fujitsu's recent statements on the sums not adding up should show how even the white knights have had to revise their promises based on cost realities.

Anyone who really truly needs a connection will get one, such as the B4RN project. The B4RN briefs freely admit that BT nor any other ISP could do the FTTP project for them as they envisage on a commercial basis. But, they because they NEED it have got the funds together and made the effort. And event their costings are high, pro rata ~£20B for full national FTTP.

But the final answer is BT, nor any other ISP, are under any form of obligation what so ever to provide you, or anyone else for that matter, with a fast broadband connection.
Where they are is because they think they can make money.
If they are required to please tell us where the regulation or government document is?

LIfe isn't fair and there is little justice in the this world, pity the lives we lead if there was... we'd be deserving everything that happens to us!

The OP wants to think himself lucky, I was looking at the FTTC spreadsheet last night as someone asked if they will recieve it. There's one road, which is about 3/4 mile long, with houses each side, for some reason it's not included, the roads either side are, even a small close off this road is.

Now thier broadband speeds are terrible, the uplift for the surrounding roads is 65 times, I even found one postcode with an uplift of 144 times!

Has anybody looked at creaky's other posts, every one seems to be complaining about something.

5M download ? http://www.speedtest.net/result/1855322499.png

Clueless as ever. Plonk.

It's such a shame that these forums don't have filters which would then allow users to filter out trolls and the like.

i find it dubious that everyone who posts on this thread coming to BT'S aid, seems to have a 37meg speedtest result, at the bottom, i'm alright jack stuff the rest of you.

another thing if the number of BB subscribers increased in these left out areas, would openreach's position change? personally i doubt it.

Edited by deleted (Mon 26-Mar-12 16:06:32)

In reply to a post by MCM:

Clueless as ever. Plonk.

It's such a shame that these forums don't have filters which would then allow users to filter out trolls and the like.

there it is again, when you have no defence, call em a Troll.

Edited by deleted (Mon 26-Mar-12 16:15:36)

Seeing as you think the rest of us are idiots and BT fans, which a little research might show to be as ridiculous as most of the things you have said, please can you explain why you said:-

so it's 512 kbps till i die eh? thank you BT monopoly free to do as we please market.

The speed test in your sig shows 5.2Mbps using the tbb tester, which works on 1024kbps per Mbps, so that's 5324kbps, and your earlier speedtest.net one showed 5.67Mbps, which will be either 5670kbps or 5806kbps.

I wouldn't call you a troll. They tend to be either intelligent or dangerous.

Post deleted by MrSaffron

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Seeing as you think the rest of us are idiots and BT fans, which a little research might show to be as ridiculous as most of the things you have said, please can you explain why you said:-

so it's 512 kbps till i die eh? thank you BT monopoly free to do as we please market.

The speed test in your sig shows 5.2Mbps using the tbb tester, which works on 1024kbps per Mbps, so that's 5324kbps, and your earlier speedtest.net one showed 5.67Mbps, which will be either 5670kbps or 5806kbps.

I wouldn't call you a troll. They tend to be either intelligent or dangerous.

it's not measured in magabytes they are measured in kilobits, they just say mb's to make it look fast.

Post deleted by MrSaffron

In reply to a post by creakycopperline:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Seeing as you think the rest of us are idiots and BT fans, which a little research might show to be as ridiculous as most of the things you have said, please can you explain why you said:-

so it's 512 kbps till i die eh? thank you BT monopoly free to do as we please market.

The speed test in your sig shows 5.2Mbps using the tbb tester, which works on 1024kbps per Mbps, so that's 5324kbps, and your earlier speedtest.net one showed 5.67Mbps, which will be either 5670kbps or 5806kbps.

I wouldn't call you a troll. They tend to be either intelligent or dangerous.

it's not measured in magabytes they are measured in kilobits, they just say mb's to make it look fast.

You seem to be getting your scalar quantites as well as your bits and bytes confused, your speed test shows a line of 5 MEGA bits per second which is 5000 KILO bits per second.

So your line is showing around the UK average for broadband speed.

So are you going to change your user ID to "not bad average line"?

Post deleted by MrSaffron

Actually if you want to be a pedant the tests are probably measured in bytes transferred per second, but as most people would type

5234281 bytes wrong a lot of the time the shortened versions of

5234 Kbps or 5.2 Mbps are used.

Some sites don't use the 1000 multiplier, but the power of 2 version i.e. 1024, which can explain small variations in figures sometimes.

As for your assertion they are using Mega bites to make it look fast - show some proof or shut up.

I am happy for people to discuss, but there does come a point, where one has to question motives, when someone has been corrected, but refuses to even entertain, or ask for further explanation.

Debate the issue and facts, do not try to score points against each other.

This goes for a couple of posts removed, and another removed due to the re-quoting

In reply to a post by creakycopperline:

so it's 512 kbps till i die eh?

No! According to your profile speedtest you are getting 5.2 Mbps now! That's 5200 Kbps! Dunno what it'll be when you expire, but probably won't be any less.

Sort your understanding of measurement units out before whining about something you cannot affect.

I would have thought it patently obvious that the majority of posters on a fibre forum would have fibre based connections or be getting connections, and would be discussing the ups and downs of fibre related things.
Yes, it is nice to have a stable 37 Mbps connection and far better than what i was expecting... but it's only been like that the last few weeks since the village cabs went live. Before that i had less than half your speed... I'd say were lucky for OR to have decided to include our village in their rollout, they could have easily omitted us.

I'm sure BT haven't omitted your cab for purely vindictive reasons... much like VM and all the other ISPs haven't decided to build their networks up to your door. They all have reasons for not serving you... if you wrote them they'd all come back with unviable economically, with BT could quite easily be you're unlucky...they have taken the cab originally meant for you, taken pity on our village and used it to give us next generation access, that would be the irony of fate!

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

same as the woman i was behind in morrisons yesterday wineing at the manager that the 5p per litre thing they do now and then

Thought the Chancellor was proposing 40p per unit not 5p per litre

VDSL if REIN is bad may be worse than ADSL2+, there is potential for this to be the case due to the frequencies used.

So if your problems are more than just a little bit of wiring, and more a broad spectrum RFI interference from the airport then only solution that would be immune enough is full fibre

In reply to a post by TheManStan:

I would have thought it patently obvious that the majority of posters on a fibre forum would have fibre based connections or be getting connections, and would be discussing the ups and downs of fibre related things.
Yes, it is nice to have a stable 37 Mbps connection and far better than what i was expecting... but it's only been like that the last few weeks since the village cabs went live. Before that i had less than half your speed... I'd say were lucky for OR to have decided to include our village in their rollout, they could have easily omitted us.

I'm sure BT haven't omitted your cab for purely vindictive reasons... much like VM and all the other ISPs haven't decided to build their networks up to your door. They all have reasons for not serving you... if you wrote them they'd all come back with unviable economically, with BT could quite easily be you're unlucky...they have taken the cab originally meant for you, taken pity on our village and used it to give us next generation access, that would be the irony of fate!

That's what puzzles me, it's economical to do a small village, but not a a few postcodes of a street next to a busy road.
we're not exacly midsummer muders location material here, which gives me a theory they decide by throwing darts at a map of the british isles. sorrounded by BT Virgin Media and alike. but no one is prepared to go the las few yards down my street. B4rn where are you?

In reply to a post by Moradin:

If you want the ultimate answer....Its because of the poor decision by politicians to privatise BT in 1982.

ultimately, thats why we are in the terrible position we are in now. We have had a total lack of investment in this utility almost since the day it was privatised. the network remained stagnant for decades. Its a utility that people cannot do without. selling it off was the mistake.
Business is all about making the most profit, for the least investment. hence you don't get a cabinet, but the bloke at the end of the road does. Its the same concept with the Post Office (our local collection office closed, nearest one 5 miles away now). or any other service that the government decides. (Party Political Broadcast bit)

Hear hear that man!

Privatisation left Railtrack as a catastrophic economic train crash. The only option for the sake of the rail network was renationalisation..

The writing is on the wall for Openreach. It is custodian of equally critical infrastructure that should be prised away from the City thieves and returned to the nurturing care of the British state as the GPO, where it can regain the public's affection.

Somehow the sticky fingers haven't gotten hold of London Transport, but not for want of trying. The proposed sell-off of the 500-year old Royal Mail is the latest act of grand larceny by the City. Bullingdon Toff, David Cameron says he hasn't ruled out a private equity sale of Royal Mail stock. Kerching - boardroom seat secured!

Our Royal Mail Sorting Office is now only open 6am-noon. For over 100 years, the Sorting Office was housed in a grand neo-Gothic building in the centre of town. Sadly, that was sold off against much public protest. The building briefly became a swanky Italian restaurant which soon went bust. The building remains empty to this day. The Sorting Office is now a corrugated metal shed on a derelict windswept industrial estate several miles from town.

Take a look at this site for plentiful examples of grotesque neglect of public assets: http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/index.php

Our ever-cheerful postman, bless him, is working twice the round he previously did. By the time he gets to our house, it's 12.30pm, when everyone is at work, so he leaves one of his 'Sorry You Were Out" cards. It's impossibly inconvenient to actually arrange collection or re-delivery of a parcel. I despair!

all three current main parties have let you, and the British people down, generation after generation. you just have to open your eyes to see it.

Quite.. It's a mistake to vote. The Westminster swindlers don't deserve any endorsement. Voting only encourages them!

Post-industrial Britain, eh?! How did this nation ever run an Empire? The twits in power couldn't even run a bath.

cheers, a

Edited by deleted (Mon 26-Mar-12 21:32:36)

In reply to a post by asbokid:

In reply to a post by Moradin:

If you want the ultimate answer....Its because of the poor decision by politicians to privatise BT in 1982.

ultimately, thats why we are in the terrible position we are in now. We have had a total lack of investment in this utility almost since the day it was privatised. the network remained stagnant for decades. Its a utility that people cannot do without. selling it off was the mistake.
Business is all about making the most profit, for the least investment. hence you don't get a cabinet, but the bloke at the end of the road does. Its the same concept with the Post Office (our local collection office closed, nearest one 5 miles away now). or any other service that the government decides. (Party Political Broadcast bit)

Hear hear that man!

Privatisation left Railtrack as a catastrophic economic train crash. The only option for the sake of the rail network was renationalisation..

The writing is on the wall for Openreach. It is custodian of equally critical infrastructure that should be prised away from the City thieves and returned to the nurturing care of the British state as the GPO, where it can regain the public's affection.

Somehow the sticky fingers haven't gotten hold of London Transport, but not for want of trying. The proposed sell-off of the 500-year old Royal Mail is the latest act of grand larceny by the City. Bullingdon Toff, David Cameron says he hasn't ruled out about a private equity sale of Royal Mail stock. Kerching - boardroom seat secured!

Our Royal Mail Sorting Office is now only open 6am-noon. For over 100 years, the Sorting Office was housed in a grand neo-Gothic building in the centre of town. Sadly, that was sold off against much public protest. The building briefly became a swanky Italian restaurant which soon went bust. The building remains empty to this day. The Sorting Office is now a corrugated metal shed on a derelict windswept industrial estate several miles from town.

Take a look at this site for plentiful examples of grotesque neglect of public assets: http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/index.php

Our ever-cheerful postman, bless him, is working twice the round he previously did. By the time he gets to our house, it's 12.30pm, when everyone is at work, so he leaves one of his 'Sorry You Were Out" cards. It's impossibly inconvenient to actually arrange collection or re-delivery of a parcel. I despair!

all three current main parties have let you, and the British people down, generation after generation. you just have to open your eyes to see it.

Quite.. It's a mistake to vote. The Westminster swindlers don't deserve any endorsement. Voting only encourages them!

Post-industrial Britain, eh?! How did this nation ever run an Empire? The twits in power couldn't even run a bath.

cheers, a

it's nice to hear something different on here, besides the usual drones trotting the privatisation is best rhetoric, will they be saying that when their grandkids are surfing the net with the same dial down broadband we have now? the NHS is next, don't be surprised at your next doctors appointment when you are told pay or die. to this lot it's in good hands, with openreach keep the copper golden goose alive.
i love it when they complain about the long term unemployed in former minning communities. the ones who thatcher shut down so their grandkids grow up without knowing what a job is. privatisation it's great isn't it?

So where do you propose to find the billions needed to renationalise Openreach from BT, as the current goverment does not have the funding to do so.

?
But you are in a way repeating what creakynut said earlier.

You cite privatised companies as being disasters for the consumer, then include the non-privatised Post Office for being a disaster as well.

As I (partly) said in a deleted post, at least BT/Openreach are increasing the availability to the populace at large, though there are pockets getting a raw deal, but the publicly owned Post Office is closing local Post Offices; closing local Sorting Offices; has reduced deliveries to one per day instead of two, with that delivery possibly being middle to late afternoon; stopped Sunday and Bank Holiday collections from letter-boxes; and in this area at least merely gives a generic last collection time rather than having specific times and indicators on the post boxes.

The privatised companies seem to be doing rather better than that. Far from perfect, I agree!

creaky -- i openreach is an equivanelt business -- services all cp's equivalently -- you get 5.7 meg -- -- i -- a conversaion has alredy been suggested your cab could be privstely or BDUK funded if it not in commercial deployment -- i hope you have raised your concers re your cabinet to your county council and have it include din their county plan

they just say mb's to make it look fast.

5200 kbits/s, 5.2 Mbits/s - whichever takes your fancy.

It's still ten times faster then the 512k your were claiming, fool.

B4rn where are you

last time I looked they were waiting for the weather that "isn't an issue" to improve while failing to get the targeted initial signups and using every tax loophole in sight and some publicly funded grant money for their extensive PR as well as exploiting suppliers prepared to give them years of free credit.

What's B4rn cost per property again ? a grand up front and 30 a month was it ?

In reply to a post by ccxo:

So where do you propose to find the billions needed to renationalise Openreach from BT, as the current goverment does not have the funding to do so.

When Stephen Byers' renationalised Railtrack, the write down on Railtrack stock ensured that the acquisition cost for HMG was zero!

BT Group plc has been living on state subsidies for years. Around £500m of state funds have been paid to date to bankroll the Openreach FTTC rollout programme. That public subsidy should be converted into a state holding in BT stock, so we get to see a financial return on our investment.

BT's market capitalisation is £18bn today.. At least £500m of BT stock is rightfully ours as taxpayers, as are all the dividends on that shareholding. Yet BT's 2011 end-of-year share dividend was a bumper 9% on the previous year. That's not cricket and it's definitely not free market economics. When a company is surviving on state handouts, it shouldn't be paying a penny in dividends to private investors.

In theory, HMG could impose any rules it wants to accelerate FTTC/P rollout. Since Openreach cannot source City funding within a reasonable time-frame to rollout a fibre programme to our towns, the state should step in. The Government should fund the rollout itself as part of a Public Works Programme, using a public credit system.

It's not that long ago when the state routinely raised money in that way for important infrastructure work. My grandparents recall investing in public works programmes as late as the 1970s. State funding was raised through the issuance of municipal bonds for specific purposes.. the building of new schools, or hospitals etc. It was a great boost for communitarianism as well. "This hospital built through public subscription.."

Today, public credit could fund an accelerated FTTC rollout to every town and village in Blighty. The obstacle is the bankrupt City of London which cannot deliver the financing but refuses to move aside and let the public take over.

Where there's a will there's a way!

cheers, a

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/02/...

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

You cite privatised companies as being disasters for the consumer, then include the non-privatised Post Office for being a disaster as well.

The Royal Mail is being deliberately wrecked so that its privatisation will initially deliver improvements. It's a sleight of hand.

We're told, for example, that letter post is being delivered at a loss by Royal Mail, and naturally only privatisation can solve that. Yet that's completely fraudulent. The Government is entirely to blame for any losses since the state regulator, Ofcom, and previously Postcomm, controls the price of Royal Mail stamps. Whether a letter stamp should cost 10p more or 20p, 30p, or whatever, that's all it would take to halt those losses. And Royal Mail has some of the lowest domestic postal charges in Europe which is obviously economically unsound. It's being crashed on purpose in readiness for City of London swindling.

cheers, a

Edited by deleted (Tue 27-Mar-12 00:03:13)

I have great respect for your technical ability, but that post is utter tripe.

Please review what happened to the Post Office between 1997 and 2010. Nearly all of what I listed a few minutes ago.

Wasn't that a non-Tory government? Or does my memory fail me? .

And do you seriously believe that increasing the price of postage would improve Post Office revenue? Wouldn't it just accelerate the move to email messages and Jacquie Lawson cards, and even more use of the cheaper private parcel delivery companies by internet-based suppliers? At least some still use Royal Mail for small items.

I wonder how many people under the age of 30 ever buy a postage stamp other than for business mail or to send cards to ageing relatives?

As for OfCom being an evil invention of the government, I know Wikip can be inaccurate but I think this is probably correct:-

Ofcom was initially established by the Office of Communications Act 2002 and received its full authority from the Communications Act 2003.

The solution appears to be revolution . Peaceful and bloodless of course. All politicians are against the people.

Now then: French Revolution; Russian Revolution; Iranian Revolution. The common people really did well out of those, didn't they? Putin and the Chinese leader are well-know democrats, as are the leaders of Egypt and North Korea.

The world is not simple.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

VDSL if REIN is bad may be worse than ADSL2+, there is potential for this to be the case due to the frequencies used.

So if your problems are more than just a little bit of wiring, and more a broad spectrum RFI interference from the airport then only solution that would be immune enough is full fibre

Anything would help Andrew I'm sure. My line is stable at the moment but should it still play up zen will ask for the line to be moved to another port hopefully on a new card

Just a couple of non related questions, i keep hearing the term backfill ? does it refer to patching up empty ducts? and why can't we look at a thread in the traditional way? numbered pages.

Backfill is where Openreach go back to a exchange area and enable cabs in later phases, this happens quite alot espeically where demand can be shown in a area.

Before we go any further, just thought i'd look on my local councils site, to see any plans for work being done since i last checked. i was quite surprised.
http://www.kirklees.gov.uk/maps/googlemap.asp?Option...
click on the roadsign near twelth avenue.

the work is being done exactly where P27... my cabinet is located, unless they've decided to do VM a favour and upgrade their cabinet.

Edited by deleted (Tue 27-Mar-12 00:58:25)

The article you link which is 2008 shows how out of date the idea of public credit since it has not happened.

You need to go and look at the BDUK funding project as you seem to miss understand the prodject, since all the funding has not gone to BT or even yet been awarded in winning tenders.

Would also look at what amount of investment the BT group has invested into their FTTC/FTTP rollout (£2.5 billion), as how the 500 million is funding the rollout shows you have not looked into the project.

How is the city of london bankrupt and not able to provide the finance, since BT is able itself to raise the investment it needs.

Edited by deleted (Tue 27-Mar-12 03:04:27)

In reply to a post by creakycopperline:

...... and why can't we look at a thread in the traditional way? numbered pages.

That just goes to show how little you look into things, try pressing the FLAT button top right of the page. There's also an option in My Home.

In reply to a post by creakycopperline:

why can't we look at a thread in the traditional way? numbered pages.

As RONSKI says. If you do it through the settings in My Home you can also alter the number of parent posts per page and the number per page. I have both set to 99. Collapsed threads, and Active in the last week.

I also recommend using "Favourite Threads" in My Home, rather than the Forum Index, as I'm sure there are a huge number of forums you are not interested in. Hugely speeds things up.

Be careful when using Flat Mode to use the Reply button against the post you are replying to, not the one against the last one on the page! Using the correct one maintains the threaded structure for those using it, and also stops you getting irate replies from people you have replied to in error. They have good reason, as there is also an option to receive an email notification of replies to your posts, so if someone has that in use there are two results of you using the wrong one:-

1) Someone gets an email saying they have a reply, which is incorrect and annoying because your post is not of relevance to theirs or to them;
2) The person you are addressing may not get the notification they expect and so not even see your reply for days or weeks.

Re "the traditional way", I think you will find Threaded mode is the traditional way, still preferred by many. Flat (paged) mode is a newish idea.
_{Edit - typo.}

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 27-Mar-12 09:33:52)

Oh dear! Congratulations, now you get to have the 5-6 month wait whilst the cab goes live.

What's you approximate distance to the cab following the roads?

Hope they aren't nicking our one back to populate your area!

In reply to a post by creakycopperline:

Before we go any further, just thought i'd look on my local councils site, to see any plans for work being done since i last checked. i was quite surprised.
http://www.kirklees.gov.uk/maps/googlemap.asp?Option...
click on the roadsign near twelth avenue.

the work is being done exactly where P27... my cabinet is located, unless they've decided to do VM a favour and upgrade their cabinet.

lol I just read this thread end to end, all this fuss over a company which is infact going to be giving your area fast broadband...

If £500m has been handed to BT already for its FTTC roll-out, then care to show us the evidence?

Also as Openreach is rolling out in areas that do NOT have market failure, this would breach EU law on state assistance I am very sure of.

And probably two years ahead of me I reckon

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/backfill - filling a trench after duct laid in it.

Could also be used for going back into an area to do cabinets or customers missed the first time I guess.

In reply to a post by FRS_Plunderer:

In reply to a post by creakycopperline:

Before we go any further, just thought i'd look on my local councils site, to see any plans for work being done since i last checked. i was quite surprised.
http://www.kirklees.gov.uk/maps/googlemap.asp?Option...
click on the roadsign near twelth avenue.

the work is being done exactly where P27... my cabinet is located, unless they've decided to do VM a favour and upgrade their cabinet.

lol I just read this thread end to end, all this fuss over a company which is infact going to be giving your area fast broadband...

i created this thread to find an answer to a particular question, not so idiots like you could post smart ass posts. good day sir.

In reply to a post by TheManStan:

Oh dear! Congratulations, now you get to have the 5-6 month wait whilst the cab goes live.

What's you approximate distance to the cab following the roads?

Hope they aren't nicking our one back to populate your area!

RFS is set to 1st of june, although i know it's not etched in stone, how long did you wait?

Cab was installed in October last year, initial RFS was Dec-12, this fell back to Mar-12.

There was a sudden flurry of activity mid-Jan, then the cab wentlive beginnning of Feb, order went in as soon as, occupying port1. I'm a little over 400m from the cab and the speedtest shows a healthy ping and speed from a Belgian server.

just to update you all, they've now started on the rest of the cabinets, even an old metal one, as i've said before mine is slated for the 3rd so they might with luck do it tomorrow.

Walked by today, they've cemented the hole where the cab is due to sit, and secured a pre drilled a floor into the concrete.

In reply to a post by yarwell:

they just say mb's to make it look fast.

5200 kbits/s, 5.2 Mbits/s - whichever takes your fancy.

It's still ten times faster then the 512k your were claiming, fool.

explian this then?
[IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/ehrgl.png[/IMG]

Edited by deleted (Wed 25-Apr-12 06:28:11)

That bytes, there's 8 bits to the byte, so 637 x 8 = 5096Kbs

Capital B = Bytes, little b = bits.

Hopefully I've remembered correctly, I do agree it all gets very confusing.

Edited by R0NSKI (Wed 25-Apr-12 06:39:47)

RONSKI is correct,

I presume the screenshot is from a preview release of windows 8. In which case MS Windows has shown downloads like this for as long as I can remember, and I started with windows 95 and the WWW.

The important bit is the case of letter B, which alas is an importance that many ignore.

In reply to a post by creakycopperline:

In reply to a post by yarwell:

they just say mb's to make it look fast.

5200 kbits/s, 5.2 Mbits/s - whichever takes your fancy.

It's still ten times faster then the 512k your were claiming, fool.

explian this then?
[IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/ehrgl.png[/IMG]

Connection speeds are always expressed in some multiple of bits per second. That's because bits are being transmitted.

The size of a file is usually expressed in bytes. Although the most common size of a byte these days is 8 bits, as has been posted, the number of bits in a byte depends entirely on the file structure of the system on which it is stored.

File download programs such as the one in the display you gave a link to quite sensibly show the download speed in multiples of bytes, reflecting the content of what is being downloaded rather than the technical bits per second. If the file was on an 11-bit byte system and so were you, the byte rate of the download would be lower, but the bit rate the same. The download would take longer, but the speed bits were coming down would be unchanged.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

RONSKI is correct,

I presume the screenshot is from a preview release of windows 8. In which case MS Windows has shown downloads like this for as long as I can remember, and I started with windows 95 and the WWW.

The important bit is the case of letter B, which alas is an importance that many ignore.

A pet hate of mine as it strikes the prefix as well. a 200mb/s connection would be awful. Even Telnet would be like pulling teeth at that speed

In reply to a post by Andrue:

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

RONSKI is correct,

I presume the screenshot is from a preview release of windows 8. In which case MS Windows has shown downloads like this for as long as I can remember, and I started with windows 95 and the WWW.

The important bit is the case of letter B, which alas is an importance that many ignore.

A pet hate of mine as it strikes the prefix as well. a 200mb/s connection would be awful. Even Telnet would be like pulling teeth at that speed

Strictly speaking that is a rate of change in pressure, 200 millibars per second.

Edited by simon194 (Wed 25-Apr-12 16:00:32)

In reply to a post by simon194:

In reply to a post by Andrue:

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

RONSKI is correct,

I presume the screenshot is from a preview release of windows 8. In which case MS Windows has shown downloads like this for as long as I can remember, and I started with windows 95 and the WWW.

The important bit is the case of letter B, which alas is an importance that many ignore.

A pet hate of mine as it strikes the prefix as well. a 200mb/s connection would be awful. Even Telnet would be like pulling teeth at that speed

Strictly speaking that is a rate of change in pressure, 200 millibars per second.

Which goes back to the whole point of using correct units and scales, the fact that some poeple don't know the difference between the shorthand of bits and bytes can only cause confusion.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

RONSKI is correct,

I presume the screenshot is from a preview release of windows 8. In which case MS Windows has shown downloads like this for as long as I can remember, and I started with windows 95 and the WWW.

The important bit is the case of letter B, which alas is an importance that many ignore.

unfortunately no, it's windows 7, the file was only 5MB, but i didn't want to risk overwriting my current install.
although i'm certainly sure a 5 meg file isn't able to do that.

Still the speeds shown are

20.8 MegaBytes of 1.6 GigaBytes (637 kiloBytes/sec)

637 kiloBytes per second is the same as 5096 Kilobits per second, which can also be written as 5 Megabits per second

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Still the speeds shown are

20.8 MegaBytes of 1.6 GigaBytes (637 kiloBytes/sec)

637 kiloBytes per second is the same as 5096 Kilobits per second, which can also be written as 5 Megabits per second

Which makes his original assertion that he is on 500kbs line wrong, he is on a 5Mbs or 5000kbs line as he refuses to use standard units.

In reply to a post by creakycopperline:

explian this then?
[IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/ehrgl.png[/IMG]

Personally i cant see what all the fuss is about, you have had it too good for so long.
Let me rephrase that, your upload is/was far better than i was able to achieve as download for over 11 years. Hope you have many more years of suffering now the boots on the other foot.

13 months ago i was told by the first FTTC installer, the worst areas were being done first, his words! Looks like your in a good area you will have to wait.

That's not even his real gripe, its just a derailer. He was originally upset at Openreach seemingly not fibring his cabinet up first thinking he'd been forgotten about but even after finding evidence that proved they are in fact doing his as we speak he continues his anti-BT/Openreach ranting on the news articles. Personally I think he's delusional.

I know that no offence.

A quote from the man himself the Victim or his other name "Empty vessels make the most noise"

this topic is no longer on track should be moved or locked

@creakycopperline, 600KB/s is around 5mb/s or 5000kb/s

if your talking about ISP speeds every one assumes your talking about kbs in your case 5mb for your connection so when your second post stated 512kbs we assumed it was 0.5mb connection when it should be around 5mb or higher (well it is as your speed test shows)

be happy you can get 5mb on your line

windows has always listed speed in KB/s only software that still lists in kb/s is real-player i think (but norm i am uninstalling it, not installing it)

if your going to state your speed in KB/s state it in KB/s as its important saying it that way if kb is in lower case we assume its ISP stated speed (so your isp speed is 5000kbs or better way 5mb)

Post deleted by billford

Edited by deleted (Sun 29-Apr-12 08:50:22)

I can't understand why this thread as gone on for so long, to be honest creakycopperline you seem to have a stable 5mbits line.

And yes your gonna attack me for saying the above but c'est la vie, I'm no BT lover as you would stress far from it their network is being overlaid with fibre in some areas whilst the rest are given less than a thought.

Most people would just be happy to receive a good voice service and decent broadband speeds for their line length.

A lot people's lines could be doing with having some or most of their lines copper (or heaven forbid aluminium) replaced with better gauged copper.

Fibre to the cabinet is not gonna solve the nations woes (still reliant on ageing copper to the cabinet), and for the record areas/communities which have came up with their own solutions will be in better stead.

The bottom line for a private company is ROI.

Pete

Do you need to be quite so disgusting in the way you express yourself?

In reply to a post by creakycopperline:

and the next owner can enjoy slowdsl, knew this was a BT cronie site.

Yet you keep coming back, why not jog on?

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

In reply to a post by creakycopperline:

and the next owner can enjoy slowdsl, knew this was a BT cronie site.

Yet you keep coming back, why not jog on?

I think he possibly has other favourite pastimes, and the word "on" doesn't feature.

Post deleted by MrSaffron

In reply to a post by creakycopperline:

but it does seems to be the only explanation why they are so many OR yes men on this site.

That's your point of view and you are entitled to it, but it doesn't mean you are right.

And it certainly doesn't mean that you are entitled to express your opinion in such unsavoury terms.

Desist.

See.

The post has been deleted because it crossed the boundary of good taste in my view.

Personal opinions are fine, but if you make them and want them to remain visible I would suggest avoiding illustrations that are in poor taste.

I have nowt to do with the industry never worked in it either. Just a passing interest as a consumer, if there is large number of OR persons, then for me this can be only a good thing, as normally I would have to wait for my ISP, to let me talk to one. If you feel the opinion is biased then take it as trade off, though for me its reality check.

I have lived in the metropolis that is Surrey and had the fastest speeds available at the time; now reside in rural sticks that is Powys with rural speeds that are not just reserved for rural exchanges. If we have to blame OR then add them to the list, Local Governments (WAG etc), Westminster Government, VM, Fujitsu , the fast fibre wireless etc Charlie�s that come and go and not least Ofcom. It all boils down to financial profit and that�s the majority view we/they all subscribe too.