why no one is offering me anything?

when i put my postcode on superfast openreach website it says AO which means accepting orders but when check on virgin ,BT or plusnet it says your area not cables

my postcode se163ey

thanks for the reply

FTTC will not show when you enter a post code for the majority of areas as it is too inaccurate, you will need to use the address checker or telephone number checker.

Because your line is exchange-only (EO), you're not connected to a cabinet.

i though by upgrading the exchange i should be able to get fibre, but can you see that my exchanged is ready to go though?

ok then , is there a website that could tell me when ill be able to use FIBRE ?

In reply to a post by stevenfrenchy:

when i put my postcode on superfast openreach website it says AO which means accepting orders but when check on virgin ,BT or plusnet it says your area not cables

my postcode se163ey

thanks for the reply

You don't have a cabinet, you're connected directly to the exchange, so you can't have fibre to the cabinet.

There is no Virgin cable service at your address.

ok thanks guys

Openreach were supposed to be offering a solution for exchange-only lines, like installing a cabinet or offering FTTP, but I don't know if there's been any progress.

As mentioned above use this link, with your phone number and see if it says "available" or a future date. Should also give you speed estimates.
I just looked with your postcode and you don't have FTTC even listed, just ADSL2+

https://www.btwholesale.com/includes/adsl/main.html

ok thanks for that

i thought by living in london i would get it fairly quickly but i guess they prioritize people with slow connection ?
i get around 13 mg

The progress is such that cost of the solution for EO lines means they will largely fall into the BDUK project roll-outs.

So will depend on the priorities for each county.

Because your line is exchange-only (EO), you're not connected to a cabinet.

Evening BatBoy, what is it you and Ignitionnet are able to look at to know someone is EO? Just was wondering...or are you OR guys?

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Because your line is exchange-only (EO), you're not connected to a cabinet.

EO != AO

Confused XRaySpeX, how does Exchange Only EO = Accepting Orders AO, is that not two totally different things?

In reply to a post by GorillaWheels:

Because your line is exchange-only (EO), you're not connected to a cabinet.

Evening BatBoy, what is it you and Ignitionnet are able to look at to know someone is EO? Just was wondering...or are you OR guys?

Using the address checker you highlighted, there's no cabinet given. Therefore EO.

Right. Thanks for the explanation I shall remember that.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Using the address checker you highlighted, there's no cabinet given. Therefore EO.

This.

thanks

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

EO != AO

Absolutely true however the lack of a cabinet from this checker response:

BT BROADBAND AVAILABILITY CHECKER

Address FLAT xx, x ROSSETTI RD, LONDON, SE16 3EY on Exchange BERMONDSEY

Does = EO.

In reply to a post by GorillaWheels:

Confused XRaySpeX, how does Exchange Only EO = Accepting Orders AO, is that not two totally different things?

The "!" in front of the "equals" means "does not equal" .

Cheers RobertoS, I didn't realise that either. I learn so much on here!

Almost all you learn here is right as well. But not all of it (including several posts from me), so treat with care!
The wrong ones are usually quickly refuted, though.

Edited by StephenTodd (Sun 19-May-13 21:36:29)

In reply to a post by GorillaWheels:

how does Exchange Only EO = Accepting Orders AO, is that not two totally different things?

Exactly!

! = NOT (it's a computer language convention)

Thanks XRaySpeX I don't know anything about computer language convention, as you are now well aware

Thanks StephenTodd, yes they certainly know their onions on here, and I like the fact there is always someone to quickly correct inaccuracies.

No they don't prioritize based on speed, but rather the commercial costs, and their desire to spend £2.5bn to reach 2/3rds of the country.

So those that are a little different to the normal and EO with it being just 5 to 10% of lines nationally makes it different and thus not a priority in the commercial roll-out.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

The progress is such that cost of the solution for EO lines means they will largely fall into the BDUK project roll-outs.

So will depend on the priorities for each county.

This is the part that is the bad news for the original poster...

Because the affordability (to BT) of changing EO lines is borderline, it tends to be in BDUK projects, rather than in the commercial rollout.

But London doesn't have a BDUK project...

In reply to a post by stevenfrenchy:

i though by upgrading the exchange i should be able to get fibre, but can you see that my exchanged is ready to go though?

You've been given information on your status as an EO line, which is your main hinderence.

In addition, an exchange status of AO does not guarantee that every cabinet has been upgraded (or is even planned to be upgraded), just that something is ready somewhere.

Exchanges go live with as little as 1 cabinet ready. They eventually seem to settle (in the commercial rollout) with around 80-90% of lines covered.

That'll probably rise over the next few years as BDUK projects infill some of the areas missed.

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

You don't have a cabinet, you're connected directly to the exchange, so you can't have fibre to the cabinet.

There is no Virgin cable service at your address.

If the line is connected directly to the exchange, then I presume the Op is pretty close to it, which means they should get a pretty decent speed. Is it worth the extra cost then to get fibre.

i know it is not always the case as i know someone who moved into a flat a couple of years back and that is next door to the exchange and connected directly to the exchange, no cabinet and their sync speed is worse than another mate who lives a couple of roads away and connected via a cabinet.
All ADSL of cause.

Time to talk to the Mayor I guess

EO lines can be of very varied line length and both physical distance from exchange

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

EO lines can be of very varied line length and both physical distance from exchange

I live in Cornwall and was on an EO until a cabinet was installed outside the exchange and my line was transferred to it. I am about 900 metres from the exchange and was getting around 18Mbps on ADSL2+. In April I was advised by BT that my line was now enabled for fibre with an estimated download speed of 26.5 Mbps down and 5.4 Mbps up. I changed over to BT Infinity on 19/04/13 and my speed started out at 21.8 Mbps down and 2.4 Mbps up, Profile was 22.11 Mbps. It has now gone down to around 20.00 Mbps down but upload is still the same, profile 20.24 Mbps. I expect it to go down again next week as I am having a new electric meter fitted and the power will be off for about 1/2 hour. I wish I'd stayed on ADSL2+!!

A single turn off before the meter work and a turn on again should not affect the DLM.

Speeds in the 20 to 24 Mbps are to be expected for a 900m D side (cab to home). You can return to ADSL2+ if you would rather have that of course.

Thanks for the info Mr Saffron.

If the line is connected directly to the exchange, then I presume the Op is pretty close to it

T'ain't always so. Got EO lines off Mortimer round here that go 8+ kilometres.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

But London doesn't have a BDUK project...

And one hell of a lot of EO lines. Mine is one of a cluster of 75+, roughly 2Km from the exchange (WRVAUX) and no VM either.

Is this actually what they're doing for EO lines?! Putting a cab outside the exchange :/ as a getout from the regulations on VDSL2?

Why not just put a rack of VDSL ports *inside* the exchange?! What possible difference could ~10-30m of loop to a cab make? That would surely solve the EO problem for a lot of people (who aren't on really long loops, but neither will this).

Seems silly to me. Let me know what I am missing here.

Yeah, I've noticed the same. A lot of my friends are in the same situation, exchange enabled early on in the rollout but on EO lines with no Virgin media (which is horrendously spotty in London).

In reply to a post by mr_mojo:

Is this actually what they're doing for EO lines?! Putting a cab outside the exchange :/ as a getout from the regulations on VDSL2?

Why not just put a rack of VDSL ports *inside* the exchange?! What possible difference could ~10-30m of loop to a cab make? That would surely solve the EO problem for a lot of people (who aren't on really long loops, but neither will this).

Seems silly to me. Let me know what I am missing here.

NEXT

Edited by deleted (Tue 21-May-13 08:07:57)

I believe it's something to do with electrical interference regulation's, so they are not allowed to.

There is a little more information here.

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/f/4240080-dir...

Edited by R0NSKI (Tue 21-May-13 10:17:12)

NICC rules i.e. the ANFP

There is a rumour that this has changed, but have not found any proof of it.

Power masks are used on VDSL2 already to reduce cross talk issues, it is much more of an issue than ADSL2+

Do you have a postcode I can have to make it easier to chase up and ask what they are doing about this.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

If the line is connected directly to the exchange, then I presume the Op is pretty close to it

T'ain't always so. Got EO lines off Mortimer round here that go 8+ kilometres.

ouch.

I can't see the reason for that happening where this person lives, because there is plenty of cabinets around there.

i was surprised that they was connected directly to the exchange as the flats are pretty new. even more surprised that the sync speed is so naff. it could be Talk Talk mind you.

Anyway, it will not be a problem soon as they have been offered a larger flat, not far from me, so if they want FTTC, they can do so.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Do you have a postcode I can have to make it easier to chase up and ask what they are doing about this.

I have sent you a PM with details.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Because your line is exchange-only (EO), you're not connected to a cabinet.

How do u know this? Where does it say EO?

I was wrong 1st time.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

How do u know this? Where does it say EO?

The BT Address Checker for any valid # @ Postcode SE16 3EY does not show a cab #. This road seems to be full of flats.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Wed 22-May-13 01:38:18)

Most Londoners get it quickly.
Most londoners lines go House - Local green cab - Local exchange

You unfortunately go house - Exchange.

Fibre is added to the green cab, if your line doesn't go via the green cab = no fibre.

In future a solution will be made available but it's likely to be a while. Meanwhile fibre is being rolled out to green cabinets.

You will only get fibre if you go via a green cabinet currently.

The reason you see accepting orders etc is probably because some neighbours go via a cab so these can get fibre & anyone nearby via a cab can get it.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Wed 22-May-13 03:54:20)

if it doesn't give a cabinet number you're EO

roughly what proportion of lines are EO on the exchanges in your area ?

In reply to a post by yarwell:

roughly what proportion of lines are EO on the exchanges in your area ?

An interesting question and one I would like to see answered for all exchanges and is something that could perhaps be incorporated into the SamKnows dbs. I feel a solution to the EO "problem" is going to be essential if BT is ever to hope to reach the high percentage levels of NGA lines that have been mentioned.

to me its simple but BT clearly feel in terms of commerical value there is less of a business case.

The simple solution is surely to stick a cabinet outside the front door of the exchange. Or rather 2 cabinets as the FTTC cabinet has to be near the voice cabinet. The only rerouting would be between the exchange and the cabinet.

Of course it varies from exchange to exchange. But most round this way have very little, or none.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

to me its simple but BT clearly feel in terms of commerical value there is less of a business case.

The simple solution is surely to stick a cabinet outside the front door of the exchange. Or rather 2 cabinets as the FTTC cabinet has to be near the voice cabinet. The only rerouting would be between the exchange and the cabinet.

You appear to be under the illusion that EO lines are short lines. Indeed your solution is simple however it would do nothing to help those with long EO lines of which there are many, not just in rural locations but also in big cities such as London. Those with short EO lines can for the most part already get decent speeds (for now). It is with the longer EO lines that the problem lies.

Their should be a % number on each of the County local broadband projects for BDUK.

In reply to a post by ccxo:

Their should be a % number on each of the County local broadband projects for BDUK.

Which is, of course, of great help to those living in the shires and more rural parts of the country, however of no help for those of us living in the cities where BDUK is an irrelevance and for whom there is presently no comparable scheme.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

to me its simple but BT clearly feel in terms of commerical value there is less of a business case.

I think some of the EO lines may passed the commercial viability tests, but in they haven't hit high priorities in terms of action. There's still a year to go, and it wouldn't surprise me to see the PCP's going in this summer, and jointers working at all the new PCP connections during reasonale weather.

However, it looks like most do need some level of subsidy, so make it into BDUK projects where they exist. Devon+Somerset's project have explicitly set the order for their work, so that EO lines are dealt with after FTTC but before FTTP and the 2Mbps basic. I guess we should expect things to be another year or two there; it wouldn't surprise me if other BDUK projects equally de-prioritised EO lines too.

The simple solution is surely to stick a cabinet outside the front door of the exchange. Or rather 2 cabinets as the FTTC cabinet has to be near the voice cabinet. The only rerouting would be between the exchange and the cabinet.

That works for short lines.

Longer lines need dealing with in a cluster - and it probably depends on the number of lines together that determines whether a cabinet placed there is viable.

If there are too few lines to justify a whole new FTTC cabinet and PCP, the other option is FTTP. That'll be harder to justify on cost grounds.

Sorry, replied to the wrong post.

I honestly doubt anything will happen to EO lines in the next year, I think Openreach will try and address the issue after they have finished the FTTC roll out.

I never said all EO lines are short, obviously there would be long copper connected to the cbinet like there is in many other cabinets. But likewise there would also be short copper.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

I never said all EO lines are short, obviously there would be long copper connected to the cbinet like there is in many other cabinets. But likewise there would also be short copper.

In such cases your solution simply isn't a solution at all. Those with short EO lines can, for the most part, already get fairly respectable speed.

its a solution in the sense it brings the option of FTTC to those connected.

The fact those near the exchnage have good syncs anyway is probably a factor in the business decision to not provide FTTC to EO lines.

However what I dont like about your argument is that you think there is something unique about long EO lines, its not unique, there is also long FTTC lines on cabinets.

Obviously those with long EO lines would either be hoping for FTTP or a cabinet placed far out near to their premises. The latter seems extremely unlikely given BT's existing policies on changing the local loop to shorten line lengths. I just cant see it happening any time soon. If you on a long EO line I suggest moving.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

its a solution in the sense it brings the option of FTTC to those connected.

The fact those near the exchnage have good syncs anyway is probably a factor in the business decision to not provide FTTC to EO lines.

However what I dont like about your argument is that you think there is something unique about long EO lines, its not unique, there is also long FTTC lines on cabinets.

Obviously those with long EO lines would either be hoping for FTTP or a cabinet placed far out near to their premises. The latter seems extremely unlikely given BT's existing policies on changing the local loop to shorten line lengths. I just cant see it happening any time soon. If you on a long EO line I suggest moving.

There's nothing unique about long EO lines however it is yourself who appears to be fixated on short EO lines to the exclusion of all else. For the last time, placing a cab outside an exchange and connecting all of the EO lines to it is NOT a solution. A solution for some but far from a solution for all.

I think there's a BDUK framework item / price for as it were hacking through an EO line and inserting a cab for FTTC.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

However what I dont like about your argument is that you think there is something unique about long EO lines, its not unique, there is also long FTTC lines on cabinets.

It isn't a question about the on-off nature of unique vs not-unique. It is a balance of probabilities.

All (or almost all) lines are less than 6km long, including EO lines.

PCP lines have, by definition, a PCP whose D-side is shorter than the total length, by at least 200 metres, and often a lot more. This is true of PCP lines whether they are short or long in their overall length.

On balance, therefore, long EO-lines are going to be longer than the D-side of long PCP lines.

Obviously those with long EO lines would either be hoping for FTTP or a cabinet placed far out near to their premises. The latter seems extremely unlikely given BT's existing policies on changing the local loop to shorten line lengths. I just cant see it happening any time soon. If you on a long EO line I suggest moving.

It will depend. If the long EO line occurs in a big-enough cluster, it is worth installing a cabinet and FTTC.

A small-enough cluster, and it might be worth using FTTP.

why would BT change policy to do that when they already say tough luck to existing long FTTC lines?

The BDUK EO lines have been dealt with as I said as well cabinet outside the exchange.

I am just trying not to give the guy false hope, if he is sitting waiting for a FTTC solution on a long EO line I think he will be waiting a long time.

Has there been any occurance of BT installing new cabs where non existed to shorten the FTTC distance, or is every FTTC cab installed next to existing cabs only. BT will look at this from a business point of view and nothing else, unless subsidised or political intervention.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

why would BT change policy to do that when they already say tough luck to existing long FTTC lines?

To help them reach the target for the county? Re-arrangement might be expensive, but it might prove the cheapest way to hits the targets.

After all, Surrey has a BDUK target for SFBB of something like 99.5% - which almost certainly requires them to consider a solution for *all* long lines (both EO and PCP-based)

Other counties have targets that are not quite that high within the BDUK projects, but are at levels that imply long lines must be considered too. And a few counties have ongoing plans for 100% coverage in the 2017-2020 timeframe. Those too will need alternative solutions.

[Aside: We know little about the actual number of EO lines, and the actual number of long EO lines, and the actual number of long PCP lines. We've seen estimates of 10% EO, and 10% long PCP. If true, then any BDUK target > 80% must solve at least one of these problems, and any target > 90% must solve both, to some degree]

Looking at this from the opposite perspective... BT do show themselves (in video, and in press releases) to use the small ECI pole-mounted box. Where would they use this? It isn't going to be at the sites we see so far (ie at the PCP, which are too big), so it must be for some other purpose.

The usual "other purposes" would include FTTB for MDU, or being placed deeper in the network than the PCP - closer to a small cluster of properties that aren't well-served by a box at the PCP. That implies clusters of long-line properties, whether they are long EO or long PCP lines.

The question is why haven't they been used yet? We have yet to see a single picture of one in use. The answer is (probably) that there is little point until you are a long way through the standard rollout *and* with a fair take-up, so you can re-assess which locations require it.

And that answer effectively says why BT currently say "tough luck" to existing long FTTC (ie long PCP) lines.

I am just trying not to give the guy false hope, if he is sitting waiting for a FTTC solution on a long EO line I think he will be waiting a long time.

Absolutely - I'm trying to do a realistic assessment too. My conclusion is that you can't say "never", but you can't guarantee coverage either - and that whatever happens, it isn't going to be speedy.

EO lines seem to be at the back end of BDUK projects, so long EO (and long PCP) are at the back end of the back end - easily looking like 2016-2017.

Has there been any occurance of BT installing new cabs where non existed to shorten the FTTC distance, or is every FTTC cab installed next to existing cabs only. BT will look at this from a business point of view and nothing else, unless subsidised or political intervention.

The original expectation was that BT would place FTTC cabinets next to the PCP (primary) cabinets. Some lines have SCP (secondary) cabinets deeper in the network, but apparently not many, and none have seen FTTC cabinets before.

However, the Oxfordshire village that recently raised its own funds to get FTTC cabinets added (Binfield Heath) seems to be getting 2 cabinets, one at each of 2 SCPs.

And in the recent financial results, they indicate that the future includes G.fast, which is destined to work in FTTdp cabinets deeper in the network than the current PCPs. That implies that *all* the rules and assumptions we know now are to be torn up in 10 years (or so) anyway.

It is definitely a case of "never say never".

Finally, to a point you didn't quite make:

[BT] already say tough luck to existing long FTTC lines

They say "tough luck" right now, but that doesn't mean they have no hope either, even without recourse to network rearrangement.

There are two technology changes that can have an impact on long-line FTTC. Those are Vectoring and Bonding (on the FTTC cards, not a BET solution).

Vectoring looks like it has the realistic potential to increase the range of SFBB speeds by around 200-300 metres (eg 40Mbps at 1km), which reduces the need for physical intervention deeper in the network. While trials start this year, a rollout would only complete in 2017 - so it leaves BT in a quandary until that time.

Bonding has the potential to increase the range by 50% too - but at the cost of using extra pairs. The D-side appears to have more spare capacity than the E-side, and drops to the house usually have at least one spare pair, so this is possible for at least some properties.

With bonding only working with the addition of scarce resources, you only want to apply it to properties that have no other answer - so it would come after you have deployed vectoring. Then comes the balancing act - is the line part of a cluster where a small ECI cab would be better deployed? Or perhaps even FTTP? Or if there are a few spare pairs, then bond.

When the local travelling community borrow a section of multicore cable Openreach are pretty slick at getting it back into operation. A similar amount of effort is involved in inserting a new cab into the system so I do expect to see it happening in due course. There would only be one cabinet, as all the connections can be made in the FTTC cab.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

[Aside: We know little about the actual number of EO lines, and the actual number of long EO lines, and the actual number of long PCP lines. We've seen estimates of 10% EO, and 10% long PCP. If true, then any BDUK target > 80% must solve at least one of these problems, and any target > 90% must solve both, to some degree]

To give some idea of the scale of the EO problem on the WRVAUX exchange 237 postcodes of 1,090 contain at least 1 EO line with 81 of the postcodes being 100% EO. I appreciate that quite a number of these will be business lines.

Our relatively small residential development (2 postcodes) has approaching 100 EO lines. I note also that the large new St George's Wharf residential development at Vauxhall Bridge (1,100 flats) appears to be entirely EO lines and therefore, due to its size, potentially rich pickings for Hyperoptic. Perhaps the developers incorporated either FFTP or FTTB in the construction.

Being in central London there is of course no BDUK money to help solve these problems so the government will need to come up with some other scheme to help those in the cities if it is to meet its broadband targets.

when I mean is there any known cases I meant in the commercial rollout.

obviously with subsidisation the rules change because as long as someone else pays BT are far more willing.

I agree its not impossible, but I standby that without intervention its extremely unlikely.

In reply to a post by MCM:

Being in central London there is of course no BDUK money to help solve these problems so the government will need to come up with some other scheme to help those in the cities

Most cities are part of a BDUK project, or are covered by something else. The only ones that aren't seem to be London & Hull. And even London has a pot of £25m from the Urban fund - whatever that turns out to allow.

The urban fund for London is mainly for WiFi in some council estates in Westminster and FTTP for all lines in the silicon roundabout (around Old Street and towards the Olympic Park).

They have preferred to use the money in a couple of specific projects rather than something more generic for the rest of London.

I have the PDF with the project for London. I got the link from some article in here a while ago, but can't recall which.

My hope is that EO lines in London are commercially viable, they are simply being done last. Hopefully an FTTP solution.

For example in my postcode, EC1V 7LP, there are 10 houses, all EO lines, a lot of zone 1 London appears to be EO lines somehow. 6Mb ADSL, so the copper to the Kings Cross exchange must go round in circles.

Having said that, I am surrounded by 3 cabs at around 100m each. London has a dense cab network. Most EO lines in Zone 1 London will be at around 100m from a cab (or aggregation node) so FTTP should be possibly cheaper than installing a cab for EO lines going by the FTTP On Demand prices.

Found the link:
London SuperConnected Cities - Urban Broadband Fund - Phase 1

Edited by dandodex (Sat 25-May-13 17:27:24)