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So previously I revealed in the first few weeks of my FTTC service I went from 110 attainable down to about 73. Then after that was just a stacking of smaller drops to high 60s. But the last few months I have actually been synced at 75.
Well on the 26th 6pm evening I lost about another 17 attainable so again new fault raised, will see what happens now, am on the lowest ever fast path sync I have had, over 13mbit below my estimate. There is a moderate chance I will lose more to FEC tommorow as was on 1.4db snrm this morning and had a massive burst of errors.
In terms of % my line has now lost 48% at 58 attainable/sync US is still the same, its the D1 and D2 been battered, so much so that D3 now has higher snr/bitloading than D2 and D1 is only slightly higher than D3.
Need to go through a voice engineer first as I am also hearing very slight hiss and plusnet want to check that out first.
Edited by Chrysalis (Thu 28-Aug-14 18:07:38)
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line complete mess. attainable just suddenly dropped another 3mbit and 1000s of crc errors incoming with a 5.4db margin.
shame openreach dont do same day visits, they will come after its heavily interleaved so no crc and tell me 40mbit or whatever it goes down to is "within spec"
Edited by Chrysalis (Thu 28-Aug-14 19:16:10)
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shame openreach dont do same day visits,
They do ... if you are prepared to pay.
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M H C
taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
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A&A provision lines as business lines, and under that setup, yes, they will service a fault on the same day (in my case, when the line went completely dead last year, within 4 hours from when fault was raised with A&A to Openreach engineer on site with fault fixed). I don't have that luxury with Zen, as I'm on their standard residential package, and I'm pretty sure Zen charge a hefty extra per month if you want that kind of level of "SLA".
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shame openreach dont do same day visits,
They do ... if you are prepared to pay.
technically they dont for consumers as consumer isp's dont offer it, if I said to plusnet I will pay for same day, they will just say no such service.
I asked on the plusnet forum about FTTC speed boost engineers (since plusnet said they dont offer them on FTTC), then andyh posted a openreach link which shows the costs to service providers, but that page is password protected so andyh may have leaked he works for an isp by accident.
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Residential consumers always want everything as cheap as they can get it, an complain when things go wrong even though they were not prepared to pay a premium to get 4hour or NBD support. If enough consumers wanted it, I am sure an ISP would offer a premium service.
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M H C
taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
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do they? you mean you think they do.
The recent premium on line rental should be covering something a bit better than the current service, companies overseas will do same day call outs for residential customers inclusive of monthly rental.
Mind you Mr BT shareholder only thinks of the dividends never mind how they achieved, by not fixing faults, maintaining lines, avoiding rolling out better technologies etc.
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The recent premium on line rental should be covering something a bit better than the current service, companies overseas will do same day call outs for residential customers inclusive of monthly rental.
Mind you Mr BT shareholder only thinks of the dividends never mind how they achieved, by not fixing faults, maintaining lines, avoiding rolling out better technologies etc.
Have you never travelled by plane? Have you never wondered why Business Class and First Class passengers get better service, food etc.?
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no I have never used a plane.
But when I get some idiot going on about an excuse for poor service because apparently I dont want to pay for better I will take issue with it, MHC has no idea what people will pay for because the market doesnt give that option.
and since I know about some other markets overseas I can make a direct comparison to the quality of service in comparison and openreach does rate poorly in that regard.
even ofcom have decided its got too bad hence their gentle pushing to make openreach recruit more engineers.
so what is this fee for same day callout then, very curious.
Edited by Chrysalis (Thu 28-Aug-14 23:21:35)
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for the curious DLM put me on a new profile I never seen before.
FEC enabled but no INP or interleaving.
I am getting around 500-10000 FEC and 100-2500 CRC per minute.
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So why do people keep asking "Who offers the cheapest?"
And with over 20 years of putting communications products in front of consumers, I do have a very good idea of what people want.
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M H C
taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
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So why do people keep asking "Who offers the cheapest?"
Well said, that man!
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if you said most people I wouldn't have argued the point but you said everyone.
The problem isp's have is if they offer premium maintenance packages or call out's they will probably struggle to collect payments if openreach do shoddy work, most people complain about the existing call out fee's. I think that's a big reason no one offers it.
But what are the same day fee's? if you say then I will tell you if I would have paid it.
e.g. if I was quoted £200 for a guaranteed pair swap, every joint been checked, pole etc. I would probably pay it.
But I would haggle over paying £50 for a basic JDSU test.
Since 2008 the average line rental has increased by about £72 per year. If 1/2 of all customers have an average of one call out per year that's chargeable then the increase covers those costs, BT is raking it in.
Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 29-Aug-14 17:13:27)
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But what are the same day fee's? if you say then I will tell you if I would have paid it. Different Service Levels that offer guaranteed response times and the one-off 'Expedite Repair' offered by Openreach are explained here and pricing is here.
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does level4 give the 6 hours?
I would probably pay that no problem.
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for the curious DLM put me on a new profile I never seen before.
FEC enabled but no INP or interleaving.
I am getting around 500-10000 FEC and 100-2500 CRC per minute.
Downstream? That's definitely new.
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yes on downstream, same as default US which has FEC but no INP/interleaving.
however I expect tomorrow interleaving will be on given today's error count.
I am on mydslwebstats if you want to see, but dont think historical inp/interleaving is graphed, just current but not sure.
Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 29-Aug-14 23:32:49)
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I have seen the same effect, ever since I started using the updated firmware.
My connection seems to occasionally switch between fastpath & interleaved.
When interleaved, I see quite a lot of DS FEC errors.
When switched to fastpath, DS FEC errors do decrease dramatically, but they can still be seen.
With the original firmware version, DS FEC errors were completey absent when on fastpath.
My own theory is that the updated firmware allows a more reliable connection as it can apply a low level of DS FEC without always needing to directly apply INP, delay & interleaving depth.
I don't usually pay a great deal of attention to the other relevant values, but I know you have previously commented on them in detail.
These are from my current fastpath connection:-
| Text | 1
23
45
67
89
10 | MSGc: 26 54
B: 239 127M: 1 1
T: 60 34R: 14 12
S: 0.3583 0.9825L: 5672 1140
D: 1 1I: 254 70
N: 254 140 |
These are from a few days ago when still interleaved:-
| Text | 1
23
45
67
89
10 | MSGc: 26 54
B: 51 111M: 1 1
T: 62 38R: 12 12
S: 0.0885 0.8913L: 5784 1113
D: 365 1I: 64 124
N: 64 124 |
In there anything of noteworthy significance in the 2 sets of data?
Edited by deleted (Fri 29-Aug-14 23:38:22)
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Isn't it the INP that allows a low level of error correction? Possibly FECs.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 56.6/14.1Mbps @ 600m. - BQM
"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
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When INP is non-zero, delay is also non-zero & interleaving depth is higher than 1
However, DS & US INP & delay are currently zero & DS & US Interleaving depth are both 1 on my connection, yet I am curretly seeing 'some' low levels of DS FEC/RSCorr counts.
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From the Fact sheet:
Maintenance Level target fix times
Level 1
Clear by 23.59 day after next, Monday to Friday, excluding Public and Bank Holidays.
For example, report Tuesday, clear Thursday.
Level 2
Clear by 23.59 next day, Monday to Saturday, excluding Public and Bank Holidays.
For example, report Tuesday, clear Wednesday.
Level 3
Report 13.00, clear by 23.59 same day. Report after 13.00 clear by 12.59 next day, seven days a week, including Public and Bank Holiday.
Level 4
Clear within 6 hours, any time of day, any day of the year.
Consider also that these are the Openreach services and prices, so your Service Provider may or may not offer them and if they do it may be at a different price.
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So previously I revealed in the first few weeks of my FTTC service I went from 110 attainable down to about 73. Then after that was just a stacking of smaller drops to high 60s. But the last few months I have actually been synced at 75.
Well on the 26th 6pm evening I lost about another 17 attainable so again new fault raised, will see what happens now, am on the lowest ever fast path sync I have had, over 13mbit below my estimate. There is a moderate chance I will lose more to FEC tommorow as was on 1.4db snrm this morning and had a massive burst of errors.
In terms of % my line has now lost 48% at 58 attainable/sync US is still the same, its the D1 and D2 been battered, so much so that D3 now has higher snr/bitloading than D2 and D1 is only slightly higher than D3.
Need to go through a voice engineer first as I am also hearing very slight hiss and plusnet want to check that out first.
Wow Plusnet and Openreach must love you! Good luck to the engineer that visits 
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ok I now dont think this is extra crosstalk, given the errors and repeated drops. Probably is a fault.
I am still on fast path no INP, with FEC enabled.
I did sync this morning at around 55mbit, but attainable has since dropped again to 49 so I have a 4.9 snr margin.
BE I am not on the latest firmware but I am on the latest openreach blob (2nd newest firmware).
Edited by Chrysalis (Sat 30-Aug-14 11:17:49)
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well I had a feeling this would happen.
I am still on a mid 50s sync but now the errors have pretty much stopped, so the slow lead time for an engineer looks like it will mean they wont witness the errors so I will have to now push for a fix just based on the low sync speed.
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I might get a chance to look later this week. Fingers crossed...
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As you say, a low-level of FEC on the downstream. Interesting to see the slight change in upstream (12/140 vs 12/124), but I'm not sure it is significant.
But neither of your speeds are at the top of their package limits, are they? That means FEC is taking some of the bandwidth without DLM ordering it... and I'm not sure I've seen that before either. There must be another element at play.
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Shame - values like that in D1 and D2 relative to D3 ought to point at a distinct fault.
Fingers crossed it re-appears in time.
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voice engineer been says line tests ok although he also said its noisy, left without doing anything and was moaning how his manager tells them to do test and leave.
So now need to get broadband engineer, the error rates since yesterday have gone to normal levels tho so now they not going to witness 1000s of crc errors. I will have to push for a fix based on sync speed.
Currently 53mbit on fast path, was at 75mbit albeit at 4db snr which probably translates to about 68-70 at 6db and estimate at 73.
The current FEC seems to have no sync overhead as attainable is same as sync speed when it syncs up.
The D1 and D2 are still messed up the issue is tho engineers I think dont look at that data they just do what their JDSU says.
Edited by Chrysalis (Mon 01-Sep-14 10:05:20)
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I was going to order a new line but am now going to hold off.
My line failed the GEA test with a note speed has dropped more than 25% in analyse period, so it has been recognised as a fault.
Will openreach actually fix it?
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Sounds similar to the problem I had, OR just said the jointboxes etc were too old to open up, and left without doing anything.
Hopefully you'll have more luck though!
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I was going to order a new line but am now going to hold off.
My line failed the GEA test with a note speed has dropped more than 25% in analyse period, so it has been recognised as a fault.
Will openreach actually fix it?
I had mine drop 25% and mine was logged as a fault. Long story short an engineer came out and found no issues with the line and said I never got the speeds I claimed (as I was to far away), I showed him my speed tests and my ISP sync speeds and he then changed his tune and said then it must be cross talk effecting the line and basically tough I'm getting around the estimate so was within acceptable range (which had been lowered from the original figure).
So for me no it wasn't fixed but if it's another issue for you other than cross talk then yes it could be fixed, it should be a free call out anyway as 25% drop is a fault so may as well see if they can fix it.
Good luck
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I have already printed the BTw speed estimate page and will have it loaded on my laptop next to the socket if an engineer comes. They will have to lower the estimate a fair chunk to get me within range of it.
This time more prepared for their BS!! when they claim the speeds are impossible.
Edited by Chrysalis (Tue 02-Sep-14 11:16:19)
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My own theory is that the updated firmware allows a more reliable connection as it can apply a low level of DS FEC without always needing to directly apply INP, delay & interleaving depth. I don't know my figures any longer but I also found that the new firmware (well - the last official update) meant I no longer had interleaving applied. It used to kick in every couple of months. Since the update my line has been rock steady 24/7/52 with no interleaving.
---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK
Edited by Andrue (Tue 02-Sep-14 11:30:21)
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ok here is what has been happening.
The broadband engineer came on thursday, I let him run his tests, and while they were running I showed him a printout of the GEA test that failed and the 'current' BTw estimate (so I have been leniant not using the point of sale estimate).
His device synced at 47.8, My current BTw estimate is 69-80. and even the Impacted estimate is 58 to 80.
The test as predicted passed and in his words was perfect.
Then I said to him so whats next as the fault exists you going to examine the line, he said no, I said why not, he said I dont test unless this thing tells me where to look, I said has it always been right then, he didnt say anything for a few seconds and then said ok I will check the cabinet, I then said and various points along the line right, he said yes.
So he left.
I had no disconnection for the rest of that morning indicating he didnt check anything, and when I rang his mobile for an update he hung up after about 5 seconds, he wasnt near my road or cabinet as it was too quiet where he was.
The service is faulty per openreach's own guidelines, Had a look at plusnet's t&c, and unless openreach make an attempt to fix my service I do consider the contract breached so is looking like I will probably be ordering a new line next week or so to get a new pair and after thats up ceasing the existing one.
In addition its not just speed, even with the error rates calmed down, the service has been disconnecting most evenings, and has currently been down 2 hours as it went down around 4pm, came back briefly for a minute, and then has been off since, I still have voice but the vdsl wont sync.
It does seem openreach are been run like a cowboy outfit and I am surprised they have not yet been on that bbc show about cowboy outfits yet.
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seems I may have hit a lucky break, the install engineer who has been sympathetic with me kept in touch etc. has got the job, he's off now looking for a good pair or cabinet port.
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now on 73/20 US attainable is up from 24 to 30.
error rate also seems a lot lower.
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So what happened between the 5th and 10th? Did they keep the job open, or did you have to raise a new fault?
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I reminded plusnet in ticket is breach of contract, had no reply and their forum staff were dead, after my dsl went down on friday night I angrily rang tech support, guy started going on about wireless etc. wasnt in mood so just told him the line was dead and process it, which he did. Then within hour got call back from a manager who approved a fTTC speed boost engineer today, as it turns out the engineer was my install engineer.
My old pair was only 50meg at 120m from the cab, so he abandoned it. He also reminded me may last 40m run is a 20 pair ali run which he couldnt avoid. I watched his jdsu syncing up whilst he was sealing my cable hole outside and seen it get 72 so was happy.
He also replaced the NTE5 before he left.
When I asked about the DLM reset he told me he did it before turning up as he didnt want the problem masked by DLM, which I thought was good thinking.
Looking at the snr data and bitloading, this pair is been battered with crosstalk as well but I think is less severe.
Edited by Chrysalis (Wed 10-Sep-14 12:41:42)
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Really good thinking on the DLM reset - but I guess as a "boost engineer", it is probably a key part of the task.
I had a look at your line on mydslwebstats, and it certainly looks better. Watch the ES levels for impending DLM intervention. I have suspicions that the threshold is around 2200 per day.
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I have suspicions that the threshold is around 2200 per day.
2880 errored/serious errored seconds a day on the Openreach Speed (BT Wholesale 'Standard' in their lingo) DLM profile. But it will flag your line if more than 288 in a day.
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I'll have to check my calculations, and possibly account for SES too, but the day before DLM intervened, I think I had 2200 ES's. A week earlier I'd had 2100 but no intervention.
The calculation is a work-in-progress, though, so could easily be wrong.
My line was running for a long, long time averaging around 500-800 ES per day. That didn't trigger any DLM.
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well averaging 1500 crc a day I was kept on fast path for ages but I Cannot rememebr what ES I was averaging.
This line I have 13 ES and only 19 CRC in about 3 hours uptime.
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My CRC count tends to average around 10x the ES value. I guess my noise comes in distinct bursts.
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2880 errored/serious errored seconds a day on the Openreach Speed (BT Wholesale 'Standard' in their lingo) DLM profile. But it will flag your line if more than 288 in a day.
Interesting. Since swapping from a Fritz!Box 7390 to a 7490, my line has sync'd for over 7 days. Attainable rate is up 20Mb and I've had 965 ES in that time. Hopefully interleaving will be removed. If it happens will it be automatic, or should I reboot the modem?
Cheers, Simon.
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It will be automatic. DLM works overnight, between 2am and 5am.
There are 3 levels of downstream interleaving and 2 levels of upstream interleaving. I believe everything happens one stage at a time.
If your line has less than 288 severe errored/errored seconds in a 24 hour period, your line will be flagged green and this should eventually trigger a profile upgrade - it's a bit more complicated when this happens though because DLM has a caution counter system to avoid moving someone up and down like a yo-yo.
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When DLM removed intervention on my line, it was precisely 8 weeks after intervening. I need to look at more of my ES stats to figure out the low threshold...
Do you know whether, when DLM reduces intervention, it is only looking at an ES threshold, or is it also making some value decision about the level of FEC's being encountered (or the plausible, but never visible, FECS counter)?
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Yeah, that's the idea.
In terms of removing interleaving/banding, DLM has a barrier designed to stop it making changes too quickly that will cause instability. When your line is set up for the first time or DLM is reset, then the first 48 hours DLM will not intervene.
At the start, your barrier is set to 0. If DLM intervenes, you barrier will be set to 8 - which means that it will take 9 days for DLM to remove interleaving/change profile. If you have too many errors on day 5, then DLM shouldn't intervene but your barrier will increased to 16. It can keep being increased all the way up to 64 (so you would have to wait 65 days for it to removing interleaving/increase profile).
If DLM intervenes and makes a positive change, then the barrier is reduced by 2 for each good day thereafter. It's reset back to what it was if you have too many errors.
So if your barrier is 64, you have to wait 65 days for DLM to make an improvement. If it makes an improvement, then you next have to wait 21 days (barrier decreasing from 64 by 2 each day until the days since the last profile change matches with the barrier for the next improvement).
Kind of complex!
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well this line is a lot better on ES
in 20 hours
155 CRC and 102 ES - before my fault on 6db snrm I averaged around 1500 CRC a day.
US has just 11 CRC and 11 ES
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Great post. Thanks for taking the time to write it.
Paul
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Aha. I think I understand the way the barrier thing works to restrict the de-intervention, but now I wonder how it affects further intervention...
If we start with a scenario where ES goes over 2880 for the first time, then DLM intervenes: this adds FEC and interleaving, and sets the barrier to 8.
If, during those 8 days, the ES value goes above 2880 again, what happens: I'd have originally though that DLM would intervene further, increasing FEC/interleaving. Are you saying that the barrier is increased instead? Or perhaps as well? Or are there different ES-thresholds for the barrier increase and for the extra DLM intervention?
And adding to the complexity...
You mention a case where "DLM intervenes and makes a positive change," and that the barrier is set back to what it was if there are subsequently too many errors: Is this adjustment to the barrier instead of DLM re-intervening with a negative change, or do both changes occur?
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I think once it has intervened there is 2 thresholds not 1.
So if it falls below the lowest threshold for all 8 days, the line is reverted.
If it stays in between the 2 thresholds, the DLM setting sticks.
If it goes above the 2nd threshold (2880?) DLM is increased further.
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The way it was explained to me, was that the caution counters (i.e. days since a profile change) and the barriers are designed to prevent repeated intervention and also making a change which could cause a line to become unstable. But thinking about it, I imagine on a bad line that DLM can keep intervening to provide stability.
I think you're right if the ES value goes over 2880 again. DLM will intervene again. If a positive change was made, then either (for one bad day) the barrier will be reset and the counter continues or DLM intervenes again.
I think the thresholds are always the same.
So if a positive change is made and then the same day the line errors a lot, then DLM will intervene and the next day the profile reduced/interleaving applied. The barrier would be increased in order for there to be stability before DLM makes its next positive change. This is the example used in Plusnet's explanation (line is flapping between good/bad) - http://community.plus.net/library/browsing/fttc-dlm-...
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