Fibre in, but...

Once again I'm calling on your collective experience, so here goes...

After several months of campaigning, wrong turns, and seemingly interminable deadlines, FTTP fibre was finally run into our block of (4) flats yesterday (Saturday). Hooray!, except, in the cold light of day, it is apparent that they have done what I consider to be a rather slapdash job that has made me reassess the viability of ever getting hooked up. They've certainly left it in state they requires time and money to put right, let alone any other considerations. Photos of the installation are on this link - http://bit.ly/1zrBAlR In case you haven't guessed it the contractors were Kelly.

The obvious nature of the ducting and the CSP are quite inappropriate for a domestic environment, and my initial elation at actually getting this far has turned into acute disappointment, not all diminished by my wife being pretty upset at the appearance of the thing. They're certainly not in line with the OR man here is saying http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_gUBw8gh90 - go to about 4 min 50 sec; and that's before we've even got to further fibre runs, ONTs, modems, etc. I'd particularly appreciate any comments from the OR professionals amongst you.

I took a look at this topic, http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/f/4213383-hom... and one of the links therein, www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/network/developingournetwork/documentationandinformation/buildersguide/downloads/developers_guide.pdf (section 3) and as a result I do not now see how the additional hardware, fibre and Cat 5e runs onwards to the existing network patch panel can be achieved without major disruption and being visually obvious; (see domestic harmony above). There is no question that had FTTC been available it would have been an absolute no-brainer. What an irony!

I was originally under the impression that that once the fibre was run in, there would be a small entry box and then a run of cable that could fairly easily laid in, much like telephone extension cable. I hadn't realised that the limitations on fibre runs in particular appear to be quite restrictive - bend radius, straight runs between bends, etc. I feel that a survey of the whole installation is needed before there is any question of proceeding further, and 1 would welcome any further thoughts on whether more domestically acceptable solutions might be possible.

I think I need some serious counselling here

The location is Newlyn, Cornwall

Is this in the same category as a "standard" sky installation, i.e aesthetically a bit rough due to time/cost restrictions on the engineers?

Does not fit the usual pattern of terminate fibre externally and then another length to the ONT.

Have you contacted your provider to lodge complaint. Usual form is to confirm stuff with property owner.

Hi flipdee,

I've no experience of Sky so I can't really comment, but Mr Murdoch does seem to have a lot of customers, and some of them keep paying substantial sums of money every month - baffled...

Hi Andrew,

This has been done as part of OR's fibre rollout, and is a precursor to enabling us to sign up to a provider. That can't happen until the fibre availability appears on the BT Checker...

However, I am going to register my displeasure with Superfast Cornwall in the morning. I was after some informed opinions to strengthen my case.

I wonder if the fact this is the front door of a 4-flat MDU plays a part here.

Presumably there is fibre for all 4 flats coming through that door, and it is pre-order work going on here - the OP hasn't managed to order yet.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

I wonder if the fact this is the front door of a 4-flat MDU plays a part here.

MDU? got it - multiple dwelling unit

Presumably there is fibre for all 4 flats coming through that door, and it is pre-order work going on here - the OP hasn't managed to order yet.

Correct

Edited by Mygri (Sun 01-Feb-15 22:37:38)

Sorry. Telecoms is full of TLAs

That installation isn't close to the kind of work I'd think would be needed in the common areas of a block. Few people care enough, so these areas take more of a hammering, with less TLC, and open access to people who don't recognise the fragility. I'd expect something sturdier, with all fibre hidden in ducting or channels.

This, combined with your mention of domestic harmony, reminds me of what some people say is an advantage of G.fast in the final drop - there is no digging or drilling to retrofit unsightly fibre.

I'd have to agree, in some part at least, the unsealed hole through the door frame, the chuck marks all over the placed, all completely unacceptable.

As mentioned later, this an MDU. I haven't actually worked in anger on one of these, but my understanding is that they would normally be housed in a 'utility cupboard' for the the flats .... I'm guessing this isn't an option from what I can see in the photo's.

Bearing in mind it is supposed to feed all 4 flats, that would seem to be a reasonably central location, it can't be tucked up high for the impracticality of making a splice in there. Down low, and it's likely to be kicked and clobbered.
Could you maybe fit some kind of box type cover over it ?

I'm guessing the property is old, so maybe no handy voids in walls to hide stuff in .........

What I'm trying to say is, it ain't pretty, but it is practical. Your only cause for complaint is the shoddy installation, the chuck marks, etc.

Hi Zarjaz, thanks for your comments.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

I'd have to agree, in some part at least, the unsealed hole through the door frame, the chuck marks all over the placed, all completely unacceptable.

To which I would add that the unsupported external run from the duct outlet to the first clip is on the door open (outwards) side, which unlike the hinge side puts the fibre tube in quite a vulnerable, easily damaged, situation...

As mentioned later, this an MDU. I haven't actually worked in anger on one of these, but my understanding is that they would normally be housed in a 'utility cupboard' for the the flats .... I'm guessing this isn't an option from what I can see in the photo's.

Indeed, and does reinforce my view that the desirability of some sort of utility cupboard, whatever, should have been raised, as actually there is very limited space available for such. Even at that point, I think it would have drawn attention to the overall difficulties that have only now become apparent.

Bearing in mind it is supposed to feed all 4 flats, that would seem to be a reasonably central location, it can't be tucked up high for the impracticality of making a splice in there. Down low, and it's likely to be kicked and clobbered.

Central yes, but actually access to the two upper flats looks challenging to say the least, and to the two ground floor flats near impossible...

Could you maybe fit some kind of box type cover over it ?

see above.

I'm guessing the property is old, so maybe no handy voids in walls to hide stuff in .........

What I'm trying to say is, it ain't pretty, but it is practical. Your only cause for complaint is the shoddy installation, the chuck marks, etc.

Granite walls, and as for voids... (hollow laugh... geddit? )

Not pretty indeed, and practical? I strongly suspect that the CSP is going to sit there unused, and if that's the outcome, what a waste of effort all round. And anyway (of course), who picks up the time and expense forfits for at least covering things up?

Sorry if that sounds dismissive, I assure you that's not my meaning; I really appreciate your insights. I'm just very disappointed at the way this seems to be heading.

After several months of campaigning, wrong turns, and seemingly interminable deadlines, FTTP fibre was finally run into our block of (4) flats yesterday

I strongly suspect that the CSP is going to sit there unused, and if that's the outcome, what a waste of effort all round.

A strange conflict in your two posts ? The first being that you were looking forward to rising above sea level (I can do puns too ) in terms of internet speeds, the second that you aren't doing to use a service over it......

I wonder if you can get any redress using ......
http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/submitFeedback....
this form from the Openreach site ?

Hmmm... the conflict is indeed deeply ironic, and I was really looking forward to at least cruising altitude speeds. However, currently it looks to me as though the means of getting from the CSP to any of the potentially four user locations will present what appear to be substantial obstacles, not the least being fibre/ Cat 5e runs plus ONT and other hardware when the domestic acceptability criteria are factored in Maybe I'm being unduly pessimistic, but I'm open to suggestion.

Thanks for the link to the OR form; I will certainly give that a go.

Update - complaint submitted!

Edited by Mygri (Mon 02-Feb-15 19:03:14)

Who owns the leasehold? Maybe needs some planning and consultation of the Openreach developer docs to find something that is suitable and can be installed to a standard that will satisfy all the owners/tenants/landlords. In short supply the location and ducting to reach the four flats and house the hardware now you know what is involved.

It is a fine line between making it easy and neater and making it so difficult for the network operator they don't bother. My temptation if was my gaffe would be small utility box built above the duct housing stuff, and then run fibre externally as unobtrusively as possible to each flat, unless there is already some thing like a floor void with space to get a fibre tube between rooms indoors.

These things are the exact sort of reason why FTTP is done so little, you spend a long time getting it just right.

These things are the exact sort of reason why FTTP is done so little

And also why BT generally won't supply FTTP to flats or divided properties unlike say Hyperoptic. For example FTTPoD, where available, specifically excludes such properties. I suspect that the OP, were it not for the Cornwall BDUK project, might have been left out entirely which could perhaps then have led to a post complaining about lack of decent broadband whereas a neighbour had FTTP.

Hi Andrew,

All flat owners are directors of the management company which owns the building freehold, so we all have an involvement and a responsibility in this. That said, I know that at this stage two flat owners are not interested, but obviously potential future owners could well be, so any steps forward need to take account of that possibility.

My strong suspicion is that the difficulties involved will indeed cause potential providers to file it under too hard, but your suggestion of a small utility box above the duct outlet does give me a glimmer of hope. I need to check the building layout details, but if we can use external pipes (rainwater, soil) to provide pre-existing external runs, something might just be possible. This is a conservation area, so changes to any external features have to be well camouflaged or there is a serious risk of planning restrictions coming into play.

These things are the exact sort of reason why FTTP is done so little, you spend a long time getting it just right.

This may be simple minded, but it seems to me that OR should provide their developers' guide to all potential FTTP users to give them the opportunity to fully assess the implications; they should also have appropriate personnel available to advise those who are not technologically conversant. If I as an engineer can get so comprehensively caught out by this, what chance do non-technical people stand? I would hazard a guess that a lot installations are going to stand unused because OR simply haven't understood the end users' needs.

Thanks for your comments

Addition: I should have added that as far as I an aware, they are no suitable voids, and we have the additional complication of underfloor heating which makes digging around under the flooring not a good idea, even if there were some space.

Edited by Mygri (Mon 02-Feb-15 18:34:41)

Spot on - sadly. Without establishing contact with Superfast Cornwall, I don't think I would have got this far, abortive though it may well turn out to be.

Openreach Developers' Guide.

Edit - As BatBoy just pointed out, you linked to this in your OP.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 02-Feb-15 22:23:04)

As linked in the OP

So true. Therefore I answered a strange question .

I have read the whole thread, but I'd just like to add a vote for the "That installation is completely unacceptable, coming from a professional employed by Kelly Comms. or whoever else" party. I dare say OR won't be that pleased, either, when water starts to pour down the external grey duct whenever it rains heavily.

I know the background and other possible outcomes of this situation have been talked about because the OP has mentioned the details, and indeed asked about more suitable solutions; but if it was me, I'd currently be assuming that this work is going to be un-done and then re-done.

Ignoring the appalling work that has taken place, if OR/Kelly Comms./Superfast Cornwall can't or won't discuss a more suitable way to install things, with regards to the exact location of components, then the tenants will have to decide on a bit of a compromise, obviously... but after all of this rubbish has been put right.

Kelly essentially (or totally) contract for OR, don't they? So the work is being done in OR's name. I don't think OR would like that very much; in fact, they might even appreciate knowing about it and having the photos. I only recently posted (about a different problem!) that I'd write to the CEO of OR, because although it might seem like an unreasonable response, I don't think anyone else is going to do anything about it. Trying to get Kelly (or whoever else turns up on the day) to modify things will surely only muddy the waters if you do have to escalate things, and of course no ISP has been involved at this stage. What I don't know is how much Superfast Cornwall are directly involved in this, because obviously I don't know who you've campaigned to in the past.

Edited by deleted (Tue 03-Feb-15 03:14:57)

Interesting discussion; albeit at the aesthetic expense of Chez Mygri. We went through similar with the water company. They wanted to fit a digital water meter. It has an inductive pad for external reading. That required a data cable run from the meter in the basement to the reader pad on the outside wall.

From previous experience of bodged work by said water company, I just knew that close oversight was essential. Otherwise they'd make a right mess of it all. So pre-prepared in readiness. Pulling up the necessary floorboards, pre-drilled the external hole for the cabling, and drilled holes across the floor joists ready for cable routing, and so on. Pretty much doing the whole job for the water co. It was a good thing I did.

On the day of the install, a young eastern European lad, very broken English but amicable enough, turned up. Hottest day of the year; he was sweating like a pig. Seemed shocked when I got him a soft drink. More used to being spat on by UKIP voters, probably. Lent him a sympathetic ear to hear about the pressures of work. Zero-hour contract; piece-rate pay; twelve meter installs expected per day; insufficient travel-time from job to job; ill-equipped tool bag; and on and on.

By now, I was expecting the worst from him. So quietly fetched my cudgel. Just in case he needed a gentle coax in how-to-do-the-job-properly. He was fine though. Probably the easiest job he'd ever done, what with all the pre-drilling; boards ready lifted; cable route pre-determined, etc.

Not much use to you now, but I do feel that the old adage of "if you want it done properly then do it your feckin' self," always stands one in good stead.

The trouble with having any workmen in the house, especially the perps from the utility companies, is they work to the lowest common denominator. They start firstly by secretly gauging your house, and the quality of its maintenance. Probably subconsciously. Looking for poor decorative finish, bad plasterwork or timberwork, and such like. And then they adjust the quality of their own work accordingly. Again, probably all done subconsciously.

But, by now, they've reassured themselves that no matter how bad their bodge, it will still "fit in"; and won't show. Which takes away that sense of responsibility or guilt for their own shoddy workmanship. That's why it's worth have a cudgel to hand, ready for when they step over your personal threshold of tolerance.

In your own case, they've made a right pig's ars� of it. So how can you remedy it? It's only a small cable. So how can you better route it, in your own time? And where can you re-site that ONT box out of view, too? All is not lost. They've not done any structural damage, and the damage to paintwork, plasterwork and timberwork looks very minimal. Good luck. And don't forget for next time: keep that cudgel handy!
.

Edited by deleted (Tue 03-Feb-15 05:54:21)

As owner, take the opportunity to re-vamp the whole entrance hall? What is the ceiling? Water-damaged chipboard? That's the sort of thing the bodging-installer sees and then seeks to match with his own handiwork.

Though maybe you can take advantage of the situation, to improve things overall? If you have to pull down and replace that ceiling, could you also gain access to the flats above? For running the fibre upstairs?

As for the entry of the fibre-cable, could you do something like this?: http://i.imgur.com/bImyhhm.jpg

I would also want to 'lose' that unsightly internal cupboard, and the fire or burglar alarm control unit straight ahead of you, as you walk in. Sinking both of them behind the surface of the wall, hidden by a neat flush door to them.

There must be a certain depth of plaster to the walls. At least enough depth to hide the steel trunking for the existing wiring to that 'break glass unit' and the time-lag switch. Exploit that depth.

You could easily chase-out the plaster for another trunking for that fibre optic cable.

First though, re-route the fibre-cable to the inside. Doing so at a point just above (outside) ground-level. Knock out, or drill through that concrete beside the entrance step. Carefully angle the drill bit so it enters the hallway just above the floor level, and just behind the surface of the right-hand wall.

Then chase out the plaster all the way up to that cupboard. Re-site that fibre box in the cupboard itself; maybe building an enlarged cupboard if necessary. Or better still, sink whatever is in the cupboard into the wall itself, if there's room. Tack the new fibre all the way up the wall, retaining it behind some galvanised steel trunking, and then make good with plaster.

That would be a half-decent job done.

You can kinda see why the fella did it the way he did, though. It's all he's paid to do.

To do it properly, "as if it were his own home" would take quite a few hours; and several return visits.

What with the chasing-out; the excavation and drilling for a new fibre-cable entry point; reintroducing the fibre; tacking it down behind trunking; sticking it down with bonding plaster; then a skimmed final layer or two; and finally re-doing the paintwork to get it back to the original decorative standard.

That's not a 30 minute job. That's probably £300+ labour in several visits for a moderately skilled workman. And if you're screwing around with the electric wiring, re-locating that alarm unit, and whatever is in that cupboard, the total bill could easily be £1,000+.

Good luck in sorting it out!
·

Edited by deleted (Tue 03-Feb-15 06:02:18)

Hi gazzyk1ns,

Thanks for your comments; I know from other forums that Kelly have 'form' as the saying goes... I have submitted a complaint to OR, because yes, it does reflect badly on them. I've also made my contact at Superfast Cornwall aware of the complaint and he's pinged back to say he's passing it on to the OR project manager. I'm awaiting developments...

Incidentally, as I've indicated in one of the earlier posts, the SFC contact has been a major factor in getting even this far.

In reply to a post by gazzyk1ns:

Trying to get Kelly (or whoever else turns up on the day) to modify things will surely only muddy the waters if you do have to escalate things, and of course no ISP has been involved at this stage.

Kelly will not be allowed anywhere near this; as you say, its quite obvious they can only make the situation worse.

In reply to a post by Mygri:

Hi gazzyk1ns,

Thanks for your comments; I know from other forums that Kelly have 'form' as the saying goes... I have submitted a complaint to OR, because yes, it does reflect badly on them. I've also made my contact at Superfast Cornwall aware of the complaint and he's pinged back to say he's passing it on to the OR project manager. I'm awaiting developments...

Incidentally, as I've indicated in one of the earlier posts, the SFC contact has been a major factor in getting even this far.

In reply to a post by gazzyk1ns:

Trying to get Kelly (or whoever else turns up on the day) to modify things will surely only muddy the waters if you do have to escalate things, and of course no ISP has been involved at this stage.

Kelly will not be allowed anywhere near this; as you say, its quite obvious they can only make the situation worse.

As Andrew (mr saffron) has said it may be worth looking at planning permission to re house the boxes so that they are secure and not left like this.

Hi edwincluck,

Interesting comments; they rather reinforce my realisation that OR are simply not approaching FTTP installations in the right way. In each case the fibre run into the building, plus the internal feeds to the point of use all need to surveyed before any work is started, and the occupants made fully aware of the implications. Had that been done in this instance, it would have become obvious that the chosen entry point is totally inappropriate, and that an alternative needs to be identified.

On the face of it, bringing the fibre in at the same point as the phone lines seems sensible, but it's actually useless. Unless you're at the point where major redecoration/ refurbishment work is required anyway*, and the additional disruption can tolerated, the upheaval involved for the internal connections and hardware is simply unconscionable.

A proper survey would also allow the occupants to decide on whether doing their own preparation work as you did would be a viable option.

It seems to me that some different technology is needed if the existing connections are to be used, parhaps something like an ONT that has a DSL output, which could then be connected to the internal master socket. The copper feed would have to be disconnected, and fibre voice access used instead. Obviously there'd be a performance penalty due to the phone wiring, but you'd still have the prospect of rather better results than most FTTC users.

* In response to your follow-up post, this does not apply. The building was formerly industrial and was refurbished as residences about 8 years ago. It is fitted out to a high standard and is generally a long way from needing further refurb that would fit in with your suggestion. Had we been in such a situation, we would have done as you suggest and I probably wouldn't have needed to unburden myself in this forum

Hi Taras,

I'm trying to avoid Planning getting involved, but as it's a conservation area, my hand may be forced...

It is also no wonder that BT think that FTTP would be an expensive and long drawn out process and why FTTPoD is so expensive. By the time they have done individual surveys of every premise and agreed with the owners exactly what route should be taken the costs in manpower will be astronomical. For FTTP these costs would take a very long time to recover through £15 a month rental payments.

It seems to me that some different technology is needed if the existing connections are to be used, parhaps something like an ONT that has a DSL output, which could then be connected to the internal master socket. The copper feed would have to be disconnected, and fibre voice access used instead. Obviously there'd be a performance penalty due to the phone wiring, but you'd still have the prospect of rather better results than most FTTC users.

An ONT with a DSL output ???? The current kit provides itself as both a modem and can support up to two voice services. The link from the ONTE to the router is via an ethernet cable .... so I suppose the ONTE could be located outside of the premises and the two services run in ..... but then it needs power, to be kept out of harms way, etc, etc. Most single dwellings will be provided with an external CSP, and then the feed fibre run in from here. How this is done is discussed with the owner on the installation date.

Hi Ian72,

Indeed, and in other words, FTTP would appear to be not viable, except for new builds and where coincidental major refurb is planned. OR really needs to grab this by the throat and completely re-think how it can impliment the technology much more effectively.

A lot of the blurb from Superfast Cornwall is bragging about having the highest percentage of FTTP. I wonder what percentage of those to whom it is or will be available will actually be able to utilise it? The scope for this turning round and biting OR in the backside could just be increasing...

It is also no wonder that BT think that FTTP would be an expensive and long drawn out process and why FTTPoD is so expensive. By the time they have done individual surveys of every premise and agreed with the owners exactly what route should be taken the costs in manpower will be astronomical.

Agree totally.

It IS viable, it's a good product. I wish I could get it where I live.

In reply to a post by ian72:

It is also no wonder that BT think that FTTP would be an expensive and long drawn out process and why FTTPoD is so expensive. By the time they have done individual surveys of every premise and agreed with the owners exactly what route should be taken the costs in manpower will be astronomical. For FTTP these costs would take a very long time to recover through £15 a month rental payments.

I do agree with all of that, but it doesn't excuse getting someone out who thinks it's acceptable to stuff a duct (even though they probably installed that duct, it's still an OR duct, part of their network) with paper or whatever they've used there. And then drill a messy hole right through the front door jamb through which to throw the cable, before scarring the wall. I mean, if it was a few flecks of paint or whatever then yes, accidents happen, but whoever installed that clearly thinks it's acceptable to do that and get paid for it, because they certainly haven't tried to cover it up.

If a fibre installer turned up at my house and said "This is all a bit much for me... so we can either mess up your front door's frame and the communal area inside, or you can't have it" then at least I have the chance to say "Nah, I'll wait for someone better".

Edited by deleted (Tue 03-Feb-15 12:41:09)

What is most telling is that firms like Kelly's are the ones who would be doing FTTP roll-out if other commercial operators were doing a large scale FTTP roll-out i.e. they work for whoever employs them.

The original cable TV roll-outs were littered with moans just like this

I wonder what the answer is, then? Surely OR (or whoever) would train people to do it to an acceptable standard? i.e. not absolutely perfectly finished and ideal in placement for 100% of customers, but... well basically to not do it anything like the OP's photos? They should be handed out to staff as an example of how not to do it. It's worrying that people need telling in the first place, but still.

Edited by deleted (Tue 03-Feb-15 12:55:27)

I would have thought that Openreach are employing Kelly's, Quinn's, etc as sub-contractors who have some sort of commitment to do a proper job.

So Openreach should be in a position to shout at Kelly's, insist they do a proper job and/or penalise them and use their own well-trained staff to rectify the poor install.

I would imagine that is all driven by the residents giving Openreach a good kick.

but it doesn't excuse getting someone out who thinks it's acceptable to stuff a duct (even though they probably installed that duct, it's still an OR duct, part of their network) with paper or whatever they've used there

Whilst agreeing with the sentiment of your post, I should just add that the 'duct stuffing' seen in the OP's photo's is a legitimate way to close an Openreach duct to stop the ingress of whatever. These are usually used on larger ducts, in cabinet bases, in the ducts from an MDF to exchange cable chamber. The usual bung is a slate grey high density foam affair. Maybe they had none on that day ?

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

An ONT with a DSL output ???? The current kit provides itself as both a modem and can support up to two voice services. The link from the ONTE to the router is via an ethernet cable .... so I suppose the ONTE could be located outside of the premises and the two services run in ..... but then it needs power, to be kept out of harms way, etc, etc. Most single dwellings will be provided with an external CSP, and then the feed fibre run in from here. How this is done is discussed with the owner on the installation date.

And this goes to the heart of the problem, namely the viability of getting from the CSP to the user's router. In this case there isn't room for the four ONTs in the lobby, let alone readily available power for them. So fibre would have to be run to each flat from CSP, and I was under the impression that this can result in unsightly installations because of the attendent problems/ limitations of bend radii (as per the developers' guide) and where each ONT can be positioned within reach of a power point.

However, it's been drawn to my attention that a fibre which was referred to 'easybend' and I assume is this stuff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4wzJSInvww (don't blame me for the soundtrack) is available which casts a completely different light on the situation. If it really is available, and with its apparent flexibilty and toughness, then a successful and visually acceptable installation suddenly appears to be within reach.

Does anyone have knowledge/ experience of this stuff?

You mean like what Openreach say they use to connect CSP to ONT

http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/contactus/conne...

Aaaahhh... might just be

Suddenly a whole range of possibilities is opening up before me - Thanks Andrew, you may just have made my day!

However, it's been drawn to my attention that a fibre which was referred to 'easybend'

If it really is available, and with its apparent flexibilty and toughness, then a successful and visually acceptable installation suddenly appears to be within reach.

Got some in me van Guv'

30m max from (in your case) the MDU CSP to location of the ONTE. Black, white, brown or grey available.

Don't forget, it takes approx 5m to go round a door frame, and there needs to be around 2m spare at the CSP end for the splice and to coil in to the tray.

Update on the Openreach complaint form.

Received a response which told me that this was an inappropriate submission and that I should refer the matter to my service provider. I think I managed a reasonable balance between putting him straight and exercising considerable restraint, (but I did cc my Superfast Cornwall contact).

The word seems to be getting round - had a call from one of the higher-ups in Kelly who was actually quite constructive and put me in the picture about EZbend; we've agreed a sight meeting as soon as I can clear some other committments. I've insisted that OR attend as well and also asked for the SfC contact's presence.

Awaiting the next round...

Not passing anywhere nearby in the next day or two, perchance?...

Nope, not even close.

Go for it !

Yup thats a good route to take to get all the parties involved to be there.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Go for it !

Update: - I did, and the outcome has been very positive. I was contacted by a very helpful OR project manager, who took the criticisms on board and having seen the pictures agreed that the installation was not acceptable, and that it was indeed OR's responsibility.

We agreed on a site meeting with a Kelly team leader as well. In the event an experienced OR installation specialist also attended. We agreed on a revised installation with proper ducting, and the Kelly guy was actually very constructive and agreeable. On that basis, and despite my previously expressed doubts here about letting them back, I agreed to them doing the rework, with an assurance from the OR PM that I could get back to him if I had any reservations.

Anyway, the KN team leader turned up yesterday with two guys and carried out the rework as agreed. The result is shown in the final two pictures in this link http://bit.ly/1zrBAlR. It took them most of the day, but this is an altogether more professional looking outcome, and I'm well satisfied with it.

So, my thanks to all of you for your contributions and comments. A good result!

Cheers

Mike

Well done you. That's a much more professional looking installation.

Now for you to order yer smokin' hot 330 meg broadband !