New FTTC install slower than ADSL2+

I live at S18 1UY - approx 1km from the exchange where I believe the cabinet I am connected to is located.

I have just had fttc installed, the ADSL checker gave me an estimate of 13.5-20.3, I had hoped for the top end of this since my previous ADSL connection was also at the top of the estimate range.

Much to my disappointment, the stats for my FTTC connection are slower than my ADSL. On ADSL I was getting 13.5 down and 1.2 up, my stats on FTTC are as follows:

Connection Status
Help
Mode VDSL2
Traffic type PTM
DSL synchronization status Up
DSL up time 0

Line Status

Downstream Upstream
Attainable rate (kbit/s) 12064 1165
SNR margin (dB) 6 6.7
Line attenuation (dB) 34.6 0
Output power (dBmV) 10.8 10.5

This is pretty disappointing really, I was hoping for closer to 20 to make the change worth it, as it is I am paying more for a worse connection. Does anyone have any insight into this, do my stats look correct? My provider is Sky. Interestingly my latency is exactly the same as on ADSL also.

more in depth stats are available here:

xdslcmd info --stats
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 1165 Kbps, Downstream rate = 12064 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 1165 Kbps, Downstream rate = 12180 Kbps

Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.0 6.6
Attn(dB): 34.6 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 10.8 10.5
VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: 26 26
B: 239 31
M: 1 1
T: 34 53
R: 14 0
S: 0.6256 0.8591
L: 3248 298
D: 1 1
I: 254 32
N: 254 32
Counters
Bearer 0
OHF: 130186 61084
OHFErr: 18 0
RS: 4419962 3236269
RSCorr: 25 0
RSUnCorr: 55 0

Bearer 0
HEC: 65 0
OCD: 10 0
LCD: 10 0
Total Cells: 16230709 0
Data Cells: 36060 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

ES: 17 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 26 26
AS: 696

Bearer 0
INP: 0.00 0.00
INPRein: 0.00 0.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 5.33 11.42
OR: 47.95 22.40
AgR: 12228.13 1187.36

Bitswap: 320/320 0/0

Total time = 12 min 2 sec
FEC: 25 0
CRC: 18 0
ES: 17 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 26 26
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 12 min 2 sec
FEC: 25 0
CRC: 18 0
ES: 17 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 26 26
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 12 min 2 sec
FEC: 25 0
CRC: 18 0
ES: 17 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 26 26
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Since Link time = 11 min 35 sec
FEC: 25 0
CRC: 18 0
ES: 17 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
#

If you've only just ordered it, go cancel it and go back to ADSL. If you're 1km from the cab I doubt that you'll do better with FTTC.

I have read plenty of people who have got decent speeds from further away than 1km. As it stands it is costing me the same price as adsl for my 12 month contract so not much point cancelling, what I was hoping for was ways to improve it, will it increase after the DLM period?

Edited by deleted (Tue 08-Sep-15 16:02:48)

Well, you're right, with those sorts of ADSL speeds I would have expected at least 3x download and maybe 10x upload. Think you need to contact Sky and complain - never dealt with them myself so I don't know if that will work.

When I went from BT ADSL2+ at 15/0.8 it immediately improved to 50/8 or thereabouts. Still not what I was hoping for - but it's a rural village so I'm glad of the improvement. Am about 4-500m from the cab, about 1km from the exchange.

When my contract with BT expires I will almost certainly move back to Infinity1 or even ADSL as the extra cost vs the bandwith just doesn't seem worth it.

ADSL speeds are pretty irrelevant to VDSL2 performance

Yes cabinet 27 is just outside the exchange and around 1500m away

Speed estimates seem to be 5.8 to 20 Mbps, so smack in the middle. Which estimate did the ISP give you?

ADSL2+ estimates look to be in the 4.5 to 11.5 Mbps region, so a little worse but not amazingly so, so upgrading was always going to be hit in miss in your case.

Latency is not that different for many people on FTTC.

So all in all, about what might be expected. A door or two either direction its a different cabinet and much better speeds

You might get better speeds if G.INP is enabled on your line. Have you updated your modem firmware to the latest available so that it supports G.INP?

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Yes cabinet 27 is just outside the exchange and around 1500m away

Speed estimates seem to be 5.8 to 20 Mbps, so smack in the middle. Which estimate did the ISP give you?

ADSL2+ estimates look to be in the 4.5 to 11.5 Mbps region, so a little worse but not amazingly so, so upgrading was always going to be hit in miss in your case.

Latency is not that different for many people on FTTC.

So all in all, about what might be expected. A door or two either direction its a different cabinet and much better speeds

The ISP quoted me 13.5 to 20.5... 11.5 is under the guaranteed speed so can cancel my contract for nothing. The exchange is 1050km away as the crow flies, not sure where you get 1500m from? The strange thing is there are no visible cabs outside the exchange.

There does seem something strange on my line, just reset my router and got the following read out:

xdslcmd info --stats
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 1181 Kbps, Downstream rate = 10496 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 1181 Kbps, Downstream rate = 11618 Kbps

Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 2.9 5.9
Attn(dB): 34.6 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 10.6 10.5

Not sure why the SNR has dropped, nor why the max attainable ds rate is lower than the actual rate

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

You might get better speeds if G.INP is enabled on your line. Have you updated your modem firmware to the latest available so that it supports G.INP?

I have the HG612 with the relevant firmware - G.INP does not appear to be available

1500m because telephone lines are not crows, but have to follow roads and even on a 1km dead straight road the line length will be more as it wiggles around other obstructions, crosses under junctions etc

These connection figures are from the test socket, i.e. no phones and all extensions in the home are not working.

It should come on in a while as long as your modem supports it.

Why?

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

1500m because telephone lines are not crows, but have to follow roads and even on a 1km dead straight road the line length will be more as it wiggles around other obstructions, crosses under junctions etc

These connection figures are from the test socket, i.e. no phones and all extensions in the home are not working.

I see what you mean - fair enough.

Yes these figures are direct from the master socket with no extensions.

My line was an EO line but got moved to cabinet 27, I am not sure what the point of that was when it provides no benefit whatsoever. There are several cabinets a lot closer to my property than cabinet 27.

I guess until FTTrn or G.FAST is rolled out I have no chance of getting a decent connection and even then I doubt I will be able to get it since it seems my street and surrounding roads are the only ones in the whole of the town who can not get a decent fibre connection.

Edited by deleted (Tue 08-Sep-15 17:26:32)

Because the much higher frequencies of VDSL2 are attenuated a lot more by copper than for ADSL2+

So 1km on ADSL2+ will deliver 17 to 20 Mbps but same distance on VDSL2 will be around the same, rather than being 3 or 4 times higher that some believe.

What matters most is the distance to the cabinet

Hello,
I experienced the same issue as you when I upgraded to FTTC, and since have switched back, (this was last year)
Was getting around 15Mbps to 18Mbps on ADSL2+ with 1.1Mb upload
and when I upgraded to FTTC the engineer even recommended switching back, as the FTTC synced between 10Mbps and 20Mbps download and the upload speed was 386Kbps, and it wouldn't budge, I have since found out that there is allot of aluminium line (source=engineer tracing fault) in the road coming to my area and that is most likely the cause, but none the less I am waiting for fttp to never arrive as if my line can get FTTC they will not install FTTP no matter what speed.
But had a bit of a giggle to myself when the area the FTTC is in had a planned power outage, and it was off from 8am till 6pm, overhead and underground wiring works, and people that where not in the affected area on FTTC the connection went down after a while, what a surprise, I was fine being served adsl2+ from the exchange and after the power came back on at the cabinet, peoples broadband started working again, FTTC has its benefits and drawbacks I suppose.
even if they do suffer from an extended power outage. unlike exchange served adsl2+

So if you do go back to adsl2+ be pleased because if there is a power outage in the area the broadband will still work unlike on fttc which will only last a few hours.
(providing your power isn't out or is backed up by UPS, Generator, batteries, etc...)

Edited by thomaswarne01 (Tue 08-Sep-15 18:36:26)

Just seems unfair that certain people seem stuck due to circumstance outside their control - no other service industry would get away with it.

Does anyone think that long distance former EO lines that are stuck onto cabinets close to the exchange will have anything done to remedy them going forward? My area is covered by BDUK Derbyshire and they say the area is under review which basically means they have no plan for it yet. It doesnt seem to me like anything willl be done to address lines like these, ive not heard or read about anyone in a similar situation getting a solution to the problem

All depends on what the local targets are, and with all due respect people getting 10 Mbps or more are probably well down the priority list when others are still getting sub 2 Mbps

I know it is very frustrating but the way things are done it is to benefit the majority which is different to benefiting everyone.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

All depends on what the local targets are, and with all due respect people getting 10 Mbps or more are probably well down the priority list when others are still getting sub 2 Mbps

I know it is very frustrating but the way things are done it is to benefit the majority which is different to benefiting everyone.

Well I had found:

• Cabinet: 27
  
  • FTTP: 0
  • FTTC: 617
  • ADSLx: 5
  • None: 0

Granted the speeds are not great for some, but the cabinet is either located in the actual exchange of very close outside it.

When I check my database for the actual approximate speeds BTW say later on I will post the highs, lows and average speeds.

*** update ***

[FTTC]
55 homes with speeds between 70Mbps and 80Mbps Range A
101 homes with speeds between 60Mbps and 80Mbps Range A
163 homes with speeds between 50Mbps and 78.9Mbps Range A
83 homes with speeds between 40Mbps and 65.6Mbps Range A
105 homes with speeds between 30Mbps and 55Mbps Range A
32 homes with speeds between 20Mbps and 36.4Mbps Range A
78 homes with speeds between 13.5Mbps and 23.8Mbps Range A

[ADSLx]
5 homes with speeds between 14.0Mbps and 20Mbps.

Speeds last checked 22 Aug 2015.

Paul

Edited by PaulKirby (Tue 08-Sep-15 20:20:10)

Just seems unfair that certain people seem stuck due to circumstance outside their control - no other service industry would get away with it.

You mean like those without access to mains gas or mains sewerage?

There are many of us on EO lines experiencing much slower connections than yourself and with no prospect of BDUK or our local authority funding the necessary network rearrangement and installation of FTTC. Hopefully you will get to see better speeds later in the BDUK or subsequent programme.

I honestly wasn't aware there were people without gas and sewerage.

Anyway, I completely agree with you, I don't mean to sound moany its just pretty frustrating. I appreciate there are people in a much worse position than I and my heart goes out to them because for anyone who cares about a decent connection it must be incredibly frustrating.

It seems to me people who already get a good connection get offered a wealth of new options and tech, while the select few with EO lines or other such complications through no fault of their own see no resolution in sight and are stuck on highly limited tech for the foreseeable future. Hopefully the next couple of years should see more of a push for these kind of people, but I cant find any evidence to suggest so and we will probably get cut even further adrift.

Its like if FTTrn ever comes out it should be offered to customers like us first but I imagine it will be offered to customers who already get great speeds.

Edited by deleted (Tue 08-Sep-15 20:58:52)

You could always get another line installed and double your speed using load balancing

which ISP offers that?

In reply to a post by MCM:

Just seems unfair that certain people seem stuck due to circumstance outside their control - no other service industry would get away with it.

You mean like those without access to mains gas or mains sewerage?

There are many of us on EO lines experiencing much slower connections than yourself and with no prospect of BDUK or our local authority funding the necessary network rearrangement and installation of FTTC. Hopefully you will get to see better speeds later in the BDUK or subsequent programme.

Agreed, I would love to get that speed on ADSLx, but sadly no chance there.

*** START RANT ***
I would also love for BTOR to finish off our FTTP install that was started back in 2011 when all the hardware was installed on our pole and in the chamber/pit, all engineers say its all done, but the computer says no and will probably remain like that while there are BDUK work going on sadly, it sometimes sucks big time living in greater London, due to no BDUK and being on the FTTP Commercial Project (part of the original 66% Commercial rollout) still doesn't help things, granted ours will get done, but most probably once all BDUK work has completed, that's the part that sucks.

It could be worse, we could be located in a rural area that's not viable for fibre and gets near nothing speed wise on ADSLx, at least we are down for FTTP, just knowing when the engineers get allocated in between BDUK work to come back to finish off any work that may need doing, my guesses is a database issue.

*** END RANT ***

But at least we have an average speed that allows us to do basic stuff which is more that what some people get.


Paul

It seems to me people who already get a good connection get offered a wealth of new options and tech, while the select few with EO lines or other such complications through no fault of their own see no resolution in sight and are stuck on highly limited tech for the foreseeable future

I agree and hopefully any such scheme will extend to the big cities such as Birmingham and London which were excluded from BDUK funding.

I live on a late 80s development in central London built on a brownfield site. All 75 properties have long EO lines, and we are surrounded by properties including many built this century all of which have the choice of fast FTTC or VM cable whilst we have access to neither.

In reply to a post by Bladesman:

I honestly wasn't aware there were people without gas and sewerage.

Plenty around where I live. At least I have mains sewerage. Some places don't have mains water or electricity!

In reply to a post by Bladesman:

I honestly wasn't aware there were people without gas and sewerage.

Loads of places in Cornwall without gas. Most do have sewerage.

Just do it yourself, plenty of hardware is available for dual-wan load balancing

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Loads of places in Cornwall without gas.

Not to mention Sussex! Some may be surprised that my village got FTTC before mains gas - it wasn't even BDUK but commercial roll-out.

Where my sister used to live had no mains gas and a septic tank in the back garden. My parents don't have mains gas either, they live in the only road in their village that doesn't have gas.

In reply to a post by Bladesman:

Just seems unfair that certain people seem stuck due to circumstance outside their control - no other service industry would get away with it.

Very few service industries are expected to deliver to everyone even if the costs are astronomical. Gas supplies don't get installed just because people want them - people have to pay for them (a colleague was quoted £18K to get gas to her house when a main runs to the estate just behind them).

In reply to a post by simon194:

Where my sister used to live had no mains gas and a septic tank in the back garden. My parents don't have mains gas either, they live in the only road in their village that doesn't have gas.

I grew up without gas or sewage at my parents house. The farmer that owned it did pay for gas to be run down to us in the 90's and I believe it cost a fair few pennies. It still has a septic tank but they moved out a couple of years ago so no longer matters to us. Emptying septic tanks costs a small fortune - much more than people pay for mains sewage.

The house still doesn't have FTTC (it is enabled but the speeds are no better than ADSL1 because the line is so long and travels for a few miles over poles).

The roads are narrow and generally poor (get narrower each year) and are used quite heavily by tractors and lorries who use it as a cut through between some villages. Nearest shop is 2 miles away. Nearest bus stop is about the same distance.

All this in a wealthy part of the south coast. They were quite glad that after living there for over 40 years they managed to get out and into "civilisation".

Just seems unfair that certain people seem stuck due to circumstance outside their control

Outside their control ??? Were you forced to live at that address ???

Friends of mine have no mains gas - heating is oil fired. No mains sewer connection - so a septic tank. Electricity - supplied overhead and subject to weather conditions. Mobile phone coverage - patchy and depending on where in the house or garden they are the operator varies. ADSL speeds of under 1Mbps and no chance of FTTC.

And they are just outside Maidenhead in Berkshire. To provide a full set of services to them and their neighbours would cost an absolute fortune.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Just seems unfair that certain people seem stuck due to circumstance outside their control

Outside their control ??? Were you forced to live at that address ???

Sometimes moving isn't a reasonable option. Many people have lived at an address for decades - before these technologies came along. My parents couldn't have easily moved as they were in a tied farm cottage (rented) and couldn't afford the other places on offer in the area and couldn't move too far because of work. Circumstances can mean you are stuck where you are - but people have to accept the realities of the difficulty in delivering services to some locations (whether rural or urban).

In reply to a post by MHC:

Friends of mine have no mains gas - heating is oil fired. No mains sewer connection - so a septic tank. Electricity - supplied overhead and subject to weather conditions. Mobile phone coverage - patchy and depending on where in the house or garden they are the operator varies. ADSL speeds of under 1Mbps and no chance of FTTC.

And they are just outside Maidenhead in Berkshire. To provide a full set of services to them and their neighbours would cost an absolute fortune.

Your friends are just like many in the UK. Until last year I had lived in such a property for 20 years, quite happily. I added a small generator for when the power went down so that when it did my oil fired heating stayed on, as did the lights. Oil heating is currently cheaper than it has been for many many years and a properly maintained septic tank is often no more expensive than mains drainage

There was one difference. With years of persuation BT gradually improved the 5km of overhead line so that what started as 28kbps dial up was running as 5Mbps ADSL by the time we left. And this is the one area where it would not cost an absolute fortune to provide a reasonable broadband service to every property. The government needs to ensure that where adequate broadband will not be supplied the industry should provide subsidised satellite access. I bet that would suddenly ensure that provision to difficult properties became, well, a little more easy!

Why should there be subsidised satellite access? The other industries don't have to provide "subsidised services" ... If you want gas - you pay, if you want mains drainage, you pay. Yes, a well maintained septic tank can be inexpensive, however they can need cleaning/emptying and in my friends' case potentially renewing in the next few years which is NOT cheap.

I live in London, however do spend time at a second location up in Scotland - no gas, even though 40 miles from Aberdeen! And oil is relatively expensive there. We do however have a full 80Mbps FTTC available, recently BT installed cabinets and rerouted EO lines which form around 95% of the lines.

In reply to a post by ian72:

Gas supplies don't get installed just because people want them - people have to pay for them (a colleague was quoted £18K to get gas to her house when a main runs to the estate just behind them).

The story I was told when I moved in (17 years ago) was that if each household in the village coughed up £1,000 we could have mains gas. There is mains gas on some new estates that have been built. I'm reasonably happy with LPG, although it's at least twice the cost (so my £1,000 would have been well worth it!)

Edited by kasg (Wed 09-Sep-15 11:29:22)

Circumstances can mean you are stuck where you are - but people have to accept the realities of the difficulty in delivering services to some locations (whether rural or urban).

I agree.

OK, thanks. I was under the impression that VDSL2 used not only the ADSL2 frequencies but higher ones also, the Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very-high-bit-rate_dig... is a bit ambigous. It claims that VDSL2 performance drops to ADSL2+ at 1.6km but I guess a lot depends on the condition of the line.

In reply to a post by keith969:

OK, thanks. I was under the impression that VDSL2 used not only the ADSL2 frequencies but higher ones also, the Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very-high-bit-rate_dig... is a bit ambigous. It claims that VDSL2 performance drops to ADSL2+ at 1.6km but I guess a lot depends on the condition of the line.

VDSL2, when unhampered, drops down to work like ADSL2+ at somewhere around 1.6-2km.

However, VDSL2 as deployed in the UK is *not* unhampered.

Unfortunately, to make cabinet-based VDSL2 compatible with exchange-based ADSL, the VDSL2 has limitations placed upon it. These limitations reduce the power of VDSL2 frequencies that overlap the ADSL2+ frequencies.

For short-range subscribers, the effect can be enough to knock 10Mbps off the top-speed that perfect VDSL2 could achieve theoretically.

The net result for long-range VDSL2 is that, even from a cabinet closer than the exchange, it cannot work much better than ADSL2+ from the exchange, if at all.

In practice, though, it seems to be upstream that gives up first at long-range. I haven't figured out exactly why, but it wouldn't surprise me if power came into it again; certainly there are power reduction schemes at play there too.

Thanks, I did not know about that 'hampered' stuff ( and don't know what that means anyhow) . It may explain why I don't get the speeds I was hoping for. Indeed upstream speed is not as good as the BT Wholesale test predicts. Downstream is within the predicted range.

In reply to a post by Bladesman:

Just seems unfair that certain people seem stuck due to circumstance outside their control - no other service industry would get away with it.

In what sense? Services are always provided on a 'best efforts' basis. The law has never applied a 'fitness for purpose' test to them. You pay a company (BT/<insert ISP name here>) to get you the fastest network connection they can.

As long as they don't overcharge and are open about the limitations of the service and aren't incompetent the jobs a good 'un.

So legally there's no problem. Now if you mean 'because some other competitor would do the job' then..well yes. It's true that in a lot of cases an openreach line is the only choice you have. But..well..that's the real world. It isn't practical for anyone to go around upgrading individual telephone lines and it's clearly not easy to upgrade them en-mass either.

So unfortunately you're just stuck and no-one is to blame other than the laws of physics and/or God.

Edited by Andrue (Wed 09-Sep-15 16:46:02)

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Just seems unfair that certain people seem stuck due to circumstance outside their control

Outside their control ??? Were you forced to live at that address ???

Are you seriously suggesting people should move home to get a better connection?? wow.

OK fair enough, there are people in the UK that are struggling even to get basic services, nevermind just a net connection, however, this has now been covered and is way off topic, so lets leave that there.

Of course there are people in a way worse situation than me, but that is not an argument to not push for better. BDUK is tax payer funded, as a tax payer I have every right to question it. All I am asking for is transparency and more of a push for equality. Getting info out of BTOR or BDUK is like getting blood from a stone. I also think more should be done for those who struggle to get a good connection when it seems the focus is more on upgrading those who are already getting a pretty good service. You can be sure as hell that when newer tech rolls out, it will be to those who already get a great FTTC connection rather than those stuck on long EO lines or other such like complications. I dont think BTOR having a monopoly on this helps the situation whatsoever

In reply to a post by Andrue:

In reply to a post by Bladesman:

Just seems unfair that certain people seem stuck due to circumstance outside their control - no other service industry would get away with it.

In what sense? Services are always provided on a 'best efforts' basis. The law has never applied a 'fitness for purpose' test to them. You pay a company (BT/<insert ISP name here>) to get you the fastest network connection they can.

As long as they don't overcharge and are open about the limitations of the service and aren't incompetent the jobs a good 'un.

So legally there's no problem. Now if you mean 'because some other competitor would do the job' then..well yes. It's true that in a lot of cases an openreach line is the only choice you have. But..well..that's the real world. It isn't practical for anyone to go around upgrading individual telephone lines and it's clearly not easy to upgrade them en-mass either.

So unfortunately you're just stuck and no-one is to blame other than the laws of physics and/or God.

In the sense that you wouldn't pay the same price as your neighbour to receive half as many tv stations or half the quantity of gas. Anyway, I am really not trying to blame anyone here, I merely raised the thread, to see if anyone could help me with my connection. BT and Sky both gave me an estimate of 14-20 on my line, 11 is obviously a bit under that.

TV Stations bad example, as you don't pay less for the TV Licence if you don't get all the FreeView channels.

Estimates could be better, and a wave of changes are due in the autumn that may improve them, but with any xDSL based service until its live you can never be sure of what you might get.

In reply to a post by Bladesman:

OK fair enough, there are people in the UK that are struggling even to get basic services, nevermind just a net connection, however, this has now been covered and is way off topic, so lets leave that there.

Of course there are people in a way worse situation than me, but that is not an argument to not push for better. BDUK is tax payer funded, as a tax payer I have every right to question it. All I am asking for is transparency and more of a push for equality. Getting info out of BTOR or BDUK is like getting blood from a stone. I also think more should be done for those who struggle to get a good connection when it seems the focus is more on upgrading those who are already getting a pretty good service. You can be sure as hell that when newer tech rolls out, it will be to those who already get a great FTTC connection rather than those stuck on long EO lines or other such like complications. I dont think BTOR having a monopoly on this helps the situation whatsoever

Agree with all of that. Headline mega speeds may be good for the industry press offices but do nothing for those who still get dial up speeds.

Internet connection is essential these days even if you only want to tax your car or file a tax return. Those who suggest it is an option and if we live in a certain locality we should either put up with it or move should think on that the universal 6 day mail delivery is another service hanging by a thread. Many areas, internet and mail, will never be profitable or even pay their way. They need cross funding from the street that makes money hand over fist

This applies in the wealthy south east just as much as in NW Scotland

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

TV Stations bad example, as you don't pay less for the TV Licence if you don't get all the FreeView channels.

Estimates could be better, and a wave of changes are due in the autumn that may improve them, but with any xDSL based service until its live you can never be sure of what you might get.

I more meant subscriber TV such as Sky.

Can anyone confirm what was the point in moving the EO lines to cabinet 27 if its too far away for any benefit whatsoever?

In reply to a post by 961a:

Agree with all of that. Headline mega speeds may be good for the industry press offices but do nothing for those who still get dial up speeds.

Internet connection is essential these days even if you only want to tax your car or file a tax return. Those who suggest it is an option and if we live in a certain locality we should either put up with it or move should think on that the universal 6 day mail delivery is another service hanging by a thread. Many areas, internet and mail, will never be profitable or even pay their way. They need cross funding from the street that makes money hand over fist

This applies in the wealthy south east just as much as in NW Scotland

Best post on this thread and fully agree. Coincidence that BT's profits happen to go up a substantial amount each year? I think not

Edited by deleted (Wed 09-Sep-15 18:05:24)

At the end of the day the best answer you will get is when we seek to deliver 100% coverage at superfast or better speeds we will be back to look at your area.

Yes you can question, but to be frank unless a project is working to 100% at superfast they can ignore you.

Current 100% target is 2 Mbps and for many of those not helped already this is likely to be satellite based.

If you lobby politicians they will point to the next 95% superfast projects, and the work for the final 5% that is looking at the costs of delivering so we can get as near to 100% as possible without spending £20,000 on one house.

Suspect this happened simply because you were on the same bundle of wires as the premises that did benefit, so no point in leaving you as a sole EO line.

Thanks MrSaffron - I do appreciate your input.

There are 76 properties in the same position as I - I appreciate its impossible to say accurately, but do you have any idea what the cost would be for a community funded solution? Perhaps to get a new cabinet installed local to us all. Obviously just looking for a very very rough ballpark figure

do you have any idea what the cost would be for a community funded solution?

£20K and upwards, We have paid BT to install an all-in-one PCP/DSLAM to provide FTTC capability to our 75 EO properties in central London. If you do decide to go this route don't expect the solution to appear overnight, it is more likely to take around a year.

S18 1UY, 15 in S18 1WA S18 1UZ are the postcodes in a cluster, the rest are north of the train line and getting superfast speeds, i.e. the majority benefited by a clear margin.

So yes its £20,000 to £25,000 to add a cabinet to serve those properties, things like power costs can significantly raise the cost or if you just want to resolve your own property a copper network rearrangement at a couple of thousand may be possible. Another option is to wait and see what happens with FoD2 i.e. the ability to order FTTP to a specific address so long as in a FTTC enabled area. FoD v1 was a couple of thousand, but trials are looking at reducing the cost by how much no one will confirm. Trials will last all summer, and so probably nothing concrete until New Year.

Should add if you go down the FTTC route a year to going live seems to be rough timescale by the time planning and building it has taken place, might be longer as the pressure is on to hit the various BDUK targets.

Edited by MrSaffron (Wed 09-Sep-15 19:25:26)

In reply to a post by Bladesman:

I have read plenty of people who have got decent speeds from further away than 1km. As it stands it is costing me the same price as adsl for my 12 month contract so not much point cancelling, what I was hoping for was ways to improve it, will it increase after the DLM period?

With FTTC DLM, the speed starts high and goes down, with ADSL it goes the other way IIRC

Sky ADSL2+ DLM starts low and can go higher.

BT Wholesale WBC ADSL2+ DLM starts high usually and will add more target margin if deemed necessary, i.e. slowing you down.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

At the end of the day the best answer you will get is when we seek to deliver 100% coverage at superfast or better speeds we will be back to look at your area.

Yes you can question, but to be frank unless a project is working to 100% at superfast they can ignore you.

Current 100% target is 2 Mbps and for many of those not helped already this is likely to be satellite based.

If you lobby politicians they will point to the next 95% superfast projects, and the work for the final 5% that is looking at the costs of delivering so we can get as near to 100% as possible without spending £20,000 on one house.

Surely the cost of one house via satellite nowhere approaches that figure

Ok so DLM has kicked in and turned on interleaving lowering the speed to under 10 and increasing latency to 20ms. Not happy about this at all, I will be getting this cancelled and going back to adsl2. I think with the speed being nowhere near advertised, they should do this for free and let me out of my fibre contrac?

Are you sure your modem supports G.INP?

Are you seriously suggesting people should move home to get a better connection?? wow.

What I'm suggesting is that if the speed of your internet connection is very important to you, then yes, if you need to move to improve things do so. Businesses move to locations that best suit their company needs, why is it unreasonable to expect homeowners to do the same.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Are you sure your modem supports G.INP?

I flashed my HG612 with the SP08 firmware specifically to support G.INP. How long does it take for it to be enabled?

My line was showing loads of errors so I can understand DLM applying interleaving but my line was stable despite the errors. Would DLM ever turn interleaving back off?

Superfast over a satellite connection is new and once you get a volume of people on it, I don't believe it will be solution that has more than a stop gap purpose

Plus some serious changes need to happen to satellite usage allowances to even handle the average data usage

And you can see exactly this from Status> Device information on the web gui?

Product type EchoLife HG612
Hardware version VER.B
Software version V100R001C01B030SP08
Firmware version A2pv6C038m.d24j
Batch number BC1P6.030.A2pv6C038m.d24j

I wasn't thinking of superfast

The last 1% is always going to be a major problem not only because of cost but also because of physical difficulties. It seems to me that a basiic 2Mbps via satellite for these folk may be the easiest way to go

I fully accept it will be neither practical or cost effective to get some of these folk streaming Netflix and watching catch up tv any time soon, if ever. But they will be able to tax the car, file the tax return etc in the way that many govnmnt depts demand that they do now

BDUK funding can only be directly used on properties that don't have super fast speeds (except a small percentage that may benefit as a by-product of a cab being enabled).

BT then choose where they spend their profits to upgrade to new tech. If it is a BT programme then they will do it based on potential profits not based on who currently has the slowest speeds.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

And you can see exactly this from Status> Device information on the web gui?

Product type EchoLife HG612
Hardware version VER.B
Software version V100R001C01B030SP08
Firmware version A2pv6C038m.d24j
Batch number BC1P6.030.A2pv6C038m.d24j

Yeah that's the one

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

or if you just want to resolve your own property a copper network rearrangement at a couple of thousand may be possible.

I think I will explore this option I would be happy to pay a couple of thousand to get it resolved. Hypothetically how would this work, they would connect my line to a different cabinet or?

Presumably I raise a request through the details on the following url and they would access and quote accordingly?

http://www.cvf.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/network/alt...

Also Mr Saffron, the BDUK Derbyshire scheme is saying they are aiming to have 98% coverage by the end of 2018 - http://www.derbyshire.gov.uk/business/community_broa...

In your opinion, would this likely include the postcodes mentioned in this thread?

Edited by deleted (Thu 10-Sep-15 11:46:25)

Derbyshire is not small so 2% means 7,500 missing out, how lucky do you feel and can you make your case to go to superfast more than someone in a village of 50 homes, where the best they can get is 1 Mbps.

The end of 2018 is over three years away, so its pay now or wait and see.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Derbyshire is not small so 2% means 7,500 missing out, how lucky do you feel and can you make your case to go to superfast more than someone in a village of 50 homes, where the best they can get is 1 Mbps.

The end of 2018 is over three years away, so its pay now or wait and see.

No I can't make a case for it over people in that situation. So hypothetically, how would network rearrangement work?

They would do a rough quote from the office paper records, then sound out a surveyor if that has not frightened you off, and then produce a more accurate quote after surveying the actual street situation.

Might be lucky and you may share a suitable DP with others on another cabinet, or you line may need 10m of digging to connect to the nearby cabinet i.e. the situation varies greatly.

Is the initial quote provided free of charge?

No idea

Ok no worries. One last question before I drive you crazy, can I stipulate which cab I want to be connected to or is it entirely at the descretion of BTO?

In reply to a post by Bladesman:

Would DLM ever turn interleaving back off?

Yes, frequently.

**In the sense that you wouldn't pay the same price as your neighbour to receive half as many tv stations or half the quantity of gas. Anyway, I am really not trying to blame anyone here, I merely raised the thread, to see if anyone could help me with my connection. BT and Sky both gave me an estimate of 14-20 on my line, 11 is obviously a bit under that.**

I don't know whether this is of any help but we live in a small Lincolnshire village, moved from a small village near Buckingham last September. Our ADSL2 connection was dire at our old house, lucky if we got 3mb download but no FTTC because of distance over 6km! Here, out in the sticks, we have a septic tank, no mains drainage, overhead phone cables and electricity cables not far from each other, no gas but oil central heating (yep oil is much cheaper at the moment luckily) and I wouldn't be anywhere else! Love it! When we moved here we had a 6mb download speed on ADSL Max, there is no ADSL2 or 2+ or whatever it's called and there is no likelihood of it either, and by chance I checked to see whether we could get FTTC and lo and behold, surprisingly yes! (Can get FTTP to but too expensive). We're with Zen and when we checked with them they reckoned the maximum we could get was 9mb clean. Cabinet is next to exchange but when we checked distance from exchange and cabinet, they differed. Exchange 2.5km and Cabinet 1.34km and you can follow the poles down the road from the exchange to the pole on our next door neighbour's property which is where the line comes into our house.

We were lucky enough to get an Openreach Engineer out after the bungled FTTC install by Kellys. He went up in the loft and removed all extensions, we didn't need them, and extended the cable to the outside of our bungalow and through the front room. With a lot of help and advice from people on this forum, I bought a Huawei modem to replace the ECI one given to us on installation. With the ECI modem we managed to sync at 17mb but with the Huawei modem we now sync at 21.8mb, downloading at 20.6mb and uploading at just under 1mb which is the maximum I think we can get but we are very happy with that. Whether we have aluminium in the cables or not I don't know. A couple of days after we installed the Huawei modem G.inp kicked in and that's when our sync speed went up to 21.8mb (which is in line with what the Openreach chap reckoned we would get when he used his equipment). To date the connection has been up nearly 18 days so appears to be pretty stable.

Noticed that your attenuation is 34.6 (if I have read your stats correctly), ours is 33.5, very similar. I would have thought your speeds should be better than what you are getting and would suggest you raise a query with your ISP especially as it appears to be below minimum speeds they stated.

Have wittered on a bit sorry! Regards, Marie.

Thanks very much Marie I appreciate your info and advice. I shall be speaking with my isp soon but at the moment they advise to wait 10 days for DLM

Edited by deleted (Fri 11-Sep-15 12:14:22)

Could you post your line stats Marie if possible please so I can compare?

Got the stats up on laptop. How do I get it to print? Do I have to copy it info into something else? How do I copy it? Doh!

Forget the above, done it. Just too early in the morning for me!!! Hope this helps.


BusyBox v1.9.1 (2014-01-21 16:44:38 CST) built-in shell (ash)

Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 1149 Kbps, Downstream rate = 21672 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 1149 Kbps, Downstream rate = 21363 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.4 6.3
Attn(dB): 33.4 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 11.3 10.5
VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: -6 26
B: 243 31
M: 1 1
T: 0 53
R: 10 0
S: 0.3637 0.8707
L: 5587 294
D: 8 1
I: 254 32
N: 254 32
Q: 8 0
V: 0 0
RxQueue: 16 0
TxQueue: 8 0
G.INP Framing: 18 0
G.INP lookback: 8 0
RRC bits: 0 24
Bearer 1
MSGc: 90 -6
B: 0 0
M: 2 0
T: 2 0
R: 16 0
S: 10.6667 0.0000
L: 24 0
D: 1 0
I: 32 0
N: 32 0
Q: 0 0
V: 0 0
RxQueue: 0 0
TxQueue: 0 0
G.INP Framing: 0 0
G.INP lookback: 0 0
RRC bits: 0 0
Counters
Bearer 0
OHF: 0 687216
OHFErr: 173 3199
RS: 4111294744 371953
RSCorr: 1478873 0
RSUnCorr: 0 0
Bearer 1
OHF: 96586645 0
OHFErr: 0 0
RS: 579519502 0
RSCorr: 1862 0
RSUnCorr: 0 0

Retransmit Counters
rtx_tx: 114426 0
rtx_c: 48521 0
rtx_uc: 510 0

G.INP Counters
LEFTRS: 2084 0
minEFTR: 21370 0
errFreeBits: 504827165 0

Bearer 0
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 3604609843 0
Data Cells: 4130848099 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

Bearer 1
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 0 0
Data Cells: 0 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

ES: 110 2180
SES: 0 0
UAS: 20 20
AS: 1551431

Bearer 0
INP: 43.00 0.00
INPRein: 0.00 0.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 0.00 11.58
OR: 0.01 22.10
AgR: 21384.62 1171.42

Bearer 1
INP: 2.50 0.00
INPRein: 2.50 0.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 16.06 0.01
OR: 47.81 0.01
AgR: 47.81 0.01

Bitswap: 1054751/1054849 7/7

Edited by deleted (Sat 12-Sep-15 10:28:21)

Thank you!

I think my line must have a fault on it somewhere, my upload is higher than yours but download a lot slower - since upload is more sensitive on FTTC I would like to think I can get close to a similar download to you.

I will speak with my ISP. Hopefully they should investigate since 10 is quite a bit below the guaranteed 13 I was given.

DLM has not applied any further changes for me since the other day, its kept me on interleaved at 10 sync:

xdslcmd info --stats
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 1173 Kbps, Downstream rate = 12104 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 1173 Kbps, Downstream rate = 10691 Kbps

Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.2 6.6
Attn(dB): 34.6 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 10.8 10.5
VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: 39 26
B: 55 31
M: 1 1
T: 64 54
R: 14 0
S: 0.1663 0.8533
L: 3368 300
D: 193 1
I: 70 32
N: 70 32
Counters
Bearer 0
OHF: 23940569 630907
OHFErr: 850 19
RS: 301598224 1398746
RSCorr: 4974523 0
RSUnCorr: 32093 0

Bearer 0
HEC: 8094 0
OCD: 896 0
LCD: 896 0
Total Cells: 3937022807 0
Data Cells: 92127723 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

ES: 456 14
SES: 1 0
UAS: 24 24
AS: 191819

Bearer 0
INP: 3.00 0.00
INPRein: 0.00 0.00
delay: 8 0
PER: 8.01 11.56
OR: 44.93 22.13
AgR: 10735.66 1195.33

Bitswap: 110976/110976 1/1

Total time = 1 days 5 hours 17 min 23 sec
FEC: 4974523 0
CRC: 850 19
ES: 456 14
SES: 1 0
UAS: 24 24
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 2 min 23 sec
FEC: 3519 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 4045 0
CRC: 5 0
ES: 3 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 5 hours 17 min 23 sec
FEC: 109644 0
CRC: 62 0
ES: 42 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
FEC: 4287597 0
CRC: 382 10
ES: 195 8
SES: 1 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Since Link time = 2 days 5 hours 16 min 57 sec
FEC: 4974523 0
CRC: 850 19
ES: 456 14
SES: 1 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
#

It would probably be helpful to see the output of xdslcmd info --pbParams (note the capital P).

Just had a thought, when you flashed your modem with the 08 firmware did you by any chance use the kill command to stop firmware updating by BT? If you did then your modem won't update with G.inp, as least I don't think so but if I am wrong am sure someone will correct me.

In reply to a post by whisper:

Just had a thought, when you flashed your modem with the 08 firmware did you by any chance use the kill command to stop firmware updating by BT? If you did then your modem won't update with G.inp, as least I don't think so but if I am wrong am sure someone will correct me.

You don't need btagent running for G.INP. Once you have the B030SP08 firmware installed on an HG612, your end supports G.INP. The decision on whether to use G.INP is down to the equipment in the cabinet.

Yeah exactly G.INP will only turn on if the cabinet thinks it's needed.

Thank you, I stand corrected

Edited by deleted (Sat 12-Sep-15 17:09:26)

In reply to a post by David_W:

It would probably be helpful to see the output of xdslcmd info --pbParams (note the capital P).

Here you go mate, what is this showing:

xdslcmd info --pbParams
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 1173 Kbps, Downstream rate = 11876 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 1173 Kbps, Downstream rate = 10691 Kbps

Discovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (7,32) (871,1205) (1972,2782)
DS: (33,859) (1216,1961) (2793,3959)
Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (7,32)
DS: (33,779)
VDSL Port Details Upstream Downstream
Attainable Net Data Rate: 1173 kbps 11876 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power: 10.5 dBm 10.8 dBm
====================================================================================
VDSL Band Status U0 U1 U2 U3 U4 D1 D2 D3
Line Attenuation(dB): 20.2 N/A N/A N/A N/A 34.6 N/A N/A
Signal Attenuation(dB): 20.2 N/A N/A N/A N/A 39.6 N/A N/A
SNR Margin(dB): 6.6 N/A N/A N/A N/A 5.9 N/A N/A
TX Power(dBm): 10.5 N/A N/A N/A N/A 10.8 N/A N/A
#

A sort of description is that the Discovery Phase is where it discovers what frequencies are being transmitted, and the Medley Phase is when it has whittled those down to what are usable. In your case that is "Not much". See mine:-

# xdslcmd info --pbParams
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 1
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 13605 Kbps, Downstream rate = 57712 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 14372 Kbps, Downstream rate = 59999 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Discovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (7,32) (871,1205) (1972,2782)
DS: (33,859) (1216,1961) (2793,3970)
Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (7,32) (871,1205) (1972,2782)
DS: (33,859) (1216,1961) (2793,3970)
VDSL Port Details Upstream Downstream
Attainable Net Data Rate: 13605 kbps 57712 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power: 7.4 dBm 13.5 dBm
====================================================================================
VDSL Band Status U0 U1 U2 U3 U4 D1 D2 D3
Line Attenuation(dB): 5.4 30.0 45.7 N/A N/A 14.5 37.5 58.5
Signal Attenuation(dB): 5.4 29.1 44.5 N/A N/A 19.4 37.1 58.6
SNR Margin(dB): 5.8 5.8 5.8 N/A N/A 5.2 5.1 5.2
TX Power(dBm): 0.4 -12.9 6.3 N/A N/A 11.1 7.9 5.5
#

so would this indicate something wrong with the line or is it just a case of too far from the cabinet?

Marie could you post these stats for your line if possible and you dont mind? Thank you.

Here you are, hope it helps. Marie.


# xdslcmd info --pbParams
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 1149 Kbps, Downstream rate = 21536 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 1149 Kbps, Downstream rate = 21363 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Discovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (7,32) (871,1205) (1972,2782)
DS: (33,859) (1216,1961) (2793,3959)
Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (7,32)
DS: (33,859)
VDSL Port Details Upstream Downst
ream
Attainable Net Data Rate: 1149 kbps 21536 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power: 10.5 dBm 11.3 dBm
==========================================================================
VDSL Band Status U0 U1 U2
U3 U4 D1 D2 D3
Line Attenuation(dB): 15.3 N/A N/A N/A N/A 30.6 90.3
N/A
Signal Attenuation(dB): 15.3 N/A N/A N/A N/A 35.1 N/A
N/A
SNR Margin(dB): 6.1 N/A N/A N/A N/A 6.3
N/A N/A
TX Power(dBm): 10.5 N/A N/A N/A N/A 11.3
N/A N/A
#

In reply to a post by Bladesman:

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Just seems unfair that certain people seem stuck due to circumstance outside their control

Outside their control ??? Were you forced to live at that address ???

Are you seriously suggesting people should move home to get a better connection?? wow.

Of course, it's rather obvious that it's the only way to obtain a satisfactory internet speed in this day and age, for those 30-40% of properties with a dark age style connection.

You can stay in your current house, and be an old man by the time you get decent speeds, or move now and get on with your life with a blisteringly fast connection.

I guess it really depends on your lifestyle and how important the connection is to you.

Edited by dave2150 (Mon 14-Sep-15 18:56:16)