Vectoring??

The latest I can find is from January 2015 saying BT was expanding a trial of Vectoring but I haven't come across anything more recent...

What I have come across is some of the horror stories where people have lost high amounts of bandwidth within short terms of time and things have only got worse as more nd more take up of VDSL services....

Recently losing near 30Mb/s off my downstream and expecting a rather significant ammount of connections to go live onmy cabinet and within the DP I'm connected too, I'm rather concerned I may end up losing another 10-20Mb/s...

If knowone's going to put any fixes in place for such problem's I will campaign for an alternative infrastructure to supply my service.

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

If knowone's going to put any fixes in place for such problem's I will campaign for an alternative infrastructure to supply my service.

Good luck with that. Please let us all know how you get on.

Yes for many customers FTTC AKA superfast bb, Has become a superfarce Because the copper pair was not designed for any bb service, Take copper out of the equation and things would be a lot different

AFAIK there will only be a limited roll out, so unless lots of people in your area are affected don't expect anything soon if at all.

Blame Thatcher

Yeah, but all the rest since haven't been bending over backwards to get a national roll-out of fibre either, thatchers legacy's that b...c did a lot of damage to this country, why hasn't someone had the balls to scrap the council tax and replace it with something fairer ?

Edited by tommy45 (Sun 06-Mar-16 13:42:16)

Well from what I've noticed, it seems that in situations (such as apartment buildings) where crosstalk is most likely going to be an issue I noticed the speed estimates given by BT Wholesale's checker seem to have a very wide gap of acceptable speed...

for instance, a quote on a neighbour's address has a 30+Mb/s range from highest to lowest 'acceptable' connection speed...

after checking an address (house) there's only a 13Mb/s range between highest and lowest 'acceptable', I then checked another apartment block an again the range was increased to 26Mb/s....

So basically no official comaplaints against crosstalk can be made unless it's bad enough to push connections outside the estimated/quoted speeds by ISP's and even then Openreach might just update their datebase to stop future connections being able to complain!!

So basically, no fix is planned and Openreach have moved past VDSL and more interested in G.Fast and getting higher 'headline' figures to go head to head with the opposition.

In reply to a post by lee111s:

Blame Thatcher

Not quiet sure why we would blame a dead person... or how even?

I udnerstand what your trying to say, but' it's a poor excuse.

In reply to a post by tommy45:

Yes for many customers FTTC AKA superfast bb, Has become a superfarce Because the copper pair was not designed for any bb service, Take copper out of the equation and things would be a lot different

You are aware that BTOR don't call FTTC superfast broadband, BTOR now display it as the following when you can get FTTC "Great news, you can order a fibre service." where as with FTTP they now say "Great news, you can get Superfast fibre directly to your home."

But yeah, I totally agree broadband was not designed to be used over twisted pair cables.

Paul

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

But yeah, I totally agree broadband was not designed to be used over twisted pair cables.

??Other way round??

Twisted pair cables were not designed to deliver broadband

Surely VDSL2 was designed to be used over UTP copper? As is G.Fast?

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Surely VDSL2 was designed to be used over UTP copper? As is G.Fast?

G.FAST is over very short distances I would think, or there would be no point.

Normally from the last chamber/phone pole before building, remember that CAT5e is about 100m if I recall for 1Gbps, which is why you need to be on FTTP to fully get the 1Gbps with G.FAST, unless you are using less than 16m of copper cable from the hardware in the chamber to your modem/router etc.

If we wasn't down for FTTP and we got G.FAST, the most we would get would be about 800 Mbps (up and down streams combined) due to we have about 60m of copper to our nearest chamber.

Paul

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

In reply to a post by lee111s:

Blame Thatcher

Not quiet sure why we would blame a dead person... or how even?

I udnerstand what your trying to say, but' it's a poor excuse.

BT wanted to start a fibre roll out back in the 80's and she stopped it as she wanted more competition in the market.

Didn't BT also want to provide TV exclusively down that fibre?

http://www.techradar.com/news/world-of-tech/how-the-...

In reference to www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/oftel-forced-to-tone-down-attack-on-b...:

Tony Blair's eye-catching deal with BT to cable up schools, hospitals and libraries to the information superhighway for free was attacked by the telecom regulator yesterday for increasing the company's monopoly power.

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

So basically, no fix is planned and Openreach have moved past VDSL and more interested in G.Fast and getting higher 'headline' figures to go head to head with the opposition.

Correct. I'd get on the blower to Hyperoptic.

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

Recently losing near 30Mb/s off my downstream and expecting a rather significant ammount of connections to go live onmy cabinet and within the DP I'm connected too, I'm rather concerned I may end up losing another 10-20Mb/s...

I wouldn't worry so much.

You had a very high attainable rate - 120MBish - but were the only customer in a new build

It was always going to go down as new customers came online but the impact of each additional user will be less and less.

Now that the first signs of G.INP being rolled out to ECI cabinets have appeared - I suspect Openreach will turn to rollout more vectoring..

Edited by gt94sss2 (Sun 06-Mar-16 18:55:21)

To bring customers a distance from the cabinet above 24-30Mb sure. To ensure people in MDUs stay on 80Mb rather than being somewhere in their estimate but not at the top not so much.

Zero business case in spending the cash on that enterprise. Vectoring cards aren't cheap.

"why you need to be on FTTP to fully get the 1Gbps with G.FAST"

That makes no sense since any DSL technology does not work over fibre, it requires a metallic path

Yeap and was one of the things trialled in the early days of ADSL development too

In reply to a post by lee111s:

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

In reply to a post by lee111s:

Blame Thatcher

Not quiet sure why we would blame a dead person... or how even?

I udnerstand what your trying to say, but' it's a poor excuse.

BT wanted to start a fibre roll out back in the 80's and she stopped it as she wanted more competition in the market.

In reply to a post by professor973:

http://www.techradar.com/news/world-of-tech/how-the-...

Yes, but there's no point crying 'now' over spilt milk 'back then'.... BT could still do what they wanted to then, and currently the issue is that they're holding back something that could make an improvement on current services and even improve its capabilty in some cases.

In reply to a post by gt94sss2:

I wouldn't worry so much.

It was always going to go down as new customers came online but the impact of each additional user will be less and less.

Now that the first signs of G.INP being rolled out to ECI cabinets have appeared - I suspect Openreach will turn to rollout more vectoring..

Well the latest new connection took 7Mb/s of my downstream sync, I hope something happen's soon, when the 183 apartment's next door go online and completely fill the wee little huawei 96 I'm connect too, I feel there will be quiet a few issues.

It only drops so far then stays constant. No difference here between 200 other lines and 450.

Nothing is going to happen soon by the way. The odds of an urban cabinet serving short lines in a Non-BDUK area being prioritised for vectoring are, to be generous, slim.

There are cabinets in far greater need with far more visibility.

Edited by deleted (Sun 06-Mar-16 21:29:45)

Is that becasue it only affects a certain block of tones?

At what point will it stop decreasing?

Does a cab being BDUK funded make any difference... my cab is BDUK funded....

There are only so many lines that can produce so much interference close enough to your pair to cause issues. Beyond that point there's no more possible.

Understood regarding BDUK, however unless it's taking lines above 24-30Mb it won't make any difference from BT's point of view.

The target is around that, not around how many lines hit 80Mb versus 60 if vectored.

It would actually apply to both commercial and BDUK funded cabinets in areas that have coverage contracts. If a vectoring processor can pull some lines into superfast range there's a case for putting one into a cabinet.

If everyone on a cabinet is already above 24Mb or 30Mb there's zero case for vectoring.

Edited by deleted (Sun 06-Mar-16 23:07:46)

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

"why you need to be on FTTP to fully get the 1Gbps with G.FAST"

That makes no sense since any DSL technology does not work over fibre, it requires a metallic path

That's what BT says.

Unless your copper length is 19m or less you won't get 1Gbps.

In reference to www.btplc.com/News/Articles/ShowArticle.cfm?ArticleID=1F647C20-6F61...:

During the G.FAST trials, downstream speeds of around 800Mbps were achieved over a 19m length of copper, combined with upstream speeds of more than 200Mbps. Impressive speeds of around 700/200Mbps were also achieved over longer lines of 66m, a distance that encompasses around 80 per cent of such connections. As well as delivering ultrafast speeds, the technology also offers the flexibility to tailor the allocation of the total 1Gbps speed according to a users� needs.

That doc has changed the last time I read it, it use to say that to reach the 1Gbps or faster with G.FAST requires FTTP or a copper length of 19m or less.
I also wondered what they meant by that, but just thought well BT must know what they are saying, maybe that's why its changed.

Paul

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Yeap and was one of the things trialled in the early days of ADSL development too

Home Choice worked rather well if you are referring to that, sadly that got cancelled and then got brought out.
I know it was great when we had it while it ran.

Paul

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

That doc has changed the last time I read it, it use to say that to reach the 1Gbps or faster with G.FAST requires FTTP or a copper length of 19m or less.
I also wondered what they meant by that, but just thought well BT must know what they are saying, maybe that's why its changed.

G.Fast has configurable variation between upstream and downstream in a way that ADSL and VDSL2 doesn't.

As this article says, "any ratio between 90% down/10% up and 30% down/70% up.":
https://techzine.alcatel-lucent.com/gfast-breaks-thr...

In those 19m tests, BT could have chosen a split of 900/100, 500/500, or 300/700. All having a total of a gigabit. They tested at 800/200.

Because of this variability between upstream and downstream, the overall G.Fast capability is usually specified as a single figure: the aggregate speed - the total of both downstream and upstream.

Of course, this brings about a new source of confusion to the layman. Does the number mean a downstream speed? or an aggregate one?

2 things.

1 - you panicking too much, crosstalk happens, but it isnt guantueed to be large crosstalk, its luck based. Also even if your line goes down to e.g. 60mbit, a 60mbit FTTC line is generally way better than say a 150mbit cable line. This is coming from someone who is probably more fussy than the typical broadband end user.
2 - Vectoring I think is unlikely in the commercial FTTC foot print as BT look to have moved onto g.fast and rollouts appear to be in only BDUK areas. I think BT dont care if a line syncs at 60mbit or 80mbit, they only care about what they can market (or perhaps in BT retail case if a line can handle iptv stable).

Edited by Chrysalis (Mon 07-Mar-16 15:10:58)

I know it was the combined speed that's why I said that in my other reply, I think it might be the sync speed, I was more interested in the customization of it, like say one day I was doing YouTube content creation that required a larger upload stream bandwidth I would just set it as say 700Mbps up and 200Mb down (900Mbps package for my length of copper line being about 60m) and one the upload was complete I would swap them round.

Or if the 900Mbps package was a bit on the pricy side I could choose a 360Mbps package where 330Mbps down and 30Mbps up and so on.

I think BT might be thinking of doing the exact thing with FTTP later on where we can choose a combined speed and configure it as we would like it.
So if a content creator we might favour the upstream a little more etc.

Paul

You cannot customise it, the split is decided at product time and is fixed for that particular cable bundle. If you have people with varying splits you increase the cross talk and break the vectoring systems.

Bringing FTTP into the mix is just confusing people, since Openreach FTTP is GPON based system and has splits for how download and upload work.

If you want fully configure like you are saying then you need a dark fibre provider.

Have seen my Attainable download go from 130Mbps to 90 Mbps over 12 months but I was one of the first to connect to the cabinet.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

You cannot customise it, the split is decided at product time and is fixed for that particular cable bundle. If you have people with varying splits you increase the cross talk and break the vectoring systems.

Oh, that was the impression that I got from the document and the video that I found a little while back, which both seem to say that you can customize your connection to how you want to use it.

Maybe this would be a one off choice, so I wish they would of said that.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Bringing FTTP into the mix is just confusing people, since Openreach FTTP is GPON based system and has splits for how download and upload work.

Like I said in my other reply to you, BT said in that doc before it was changed that to benefit the 1Gbps over G.FAST that you would have to be on copper line either 19m or shorter or on a FTTP connection, their words not mine.

But yeah, what you said in that post makes sense.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

If you want fully configure like you are saying then you need a dark fibre provider.

Like I said I was only going by the impression of what I read and saw.
I wish I bookmarked that video now.

Paul

It wouldn't be a one-off choice for customization. There will be a product set and you purchase one of that set.

You will not be able to decide on your upstream and downstream split regardless of technology or provider.

This would break capacity planning in the case of FTTP and the entire node in the case of G.fast.

I am not aware of anywhere in the world where this is an option.

In reply to a post by rarrar:

Have seen my Attainable download go from 130Mbps to 90 Mbps over 12 months but I was one of the first to connect to the cabinet.

I'm not to worried 'currently' about crosstalk at cabinet level, the worst locations for crosstalk that affect me currently are the drop cable (50 pair) fed from the PCP direct to my building's Distribution Point serving 24 apartments and the buildings various systems.

I've watched my 120 drop to 79 so far... I've continued to watch it drop slightly more over the last few days, I'm also witnessing my SNR dropping, whcih as expected makes the connection less stable.

I'm currently keeping an eye onto it into the evening and thinking about doing a reboot of my modem at the worst point to get it back on target... this will mean me losing more sync speed but keeping it clutching at straws might cause DLM Intervention... already bad enough that potenitally there's a slight delay on my downstream yet my upstream is perfect...

Not good for realtime shooter gaming