Cabinet just enabled for FTTC, terrible speeds

Hi,

After being teased by BT for a couple of years, my cab was finally upgraded to FTTC recently. Me and one of my neighbours immediately ordered Plusnet's 80Mbps service. Both of us were skeptical we would receive anywhere near that speed given the distance to the cab (~1 mile as the crow flies) but thought it would be fun to see what we got. I was hoping for around 14Mbps but have peaked out at about 4.5Mbps with my neighbour managing ~8Mbps.

Cue around 5 weeks of phonecalls to Plusnet, a couple of no shows from Openreach, and a couple of master socket replacements, we're not much further along. Plusnet have offered to release my neighbour from his contract but I am pushing them to escalate my issue with Openreach, whatever that may achieve.

For information, we live in a semi-rural area in a small community of 11 converted barns. A number of the other neighbours are waiting to see what experience me and the aforementioned neighbour get before deciding if they'll take the punt.

At this point I am not hopeful that Plusnet will be able to do much more, I suspect there is some issue upstream of the farm between us and the cab which I doubt Openreach will remedy. Although there must be a specific issue affecting me given my neighbour gets nearly twice what I do (again have raised that but the openreach engineer that attended would not check the ducts outside for example since he said he wasn't an underground engineer).

I'm wondering what other avenues are left to us? All I can think of is that we will have to wait until we get FTTP rolled out, which may be never, or group together and buy a leased line which will probably be too expensive.

Are there any ways I can force Openreach to accept there is a problem they need to remedy (don't laugh, just asking)? Or can we band together to get FTTP on demand etc.?

Any thoughts appreciated!

Out of curiosity why did you order the 80Mbps sine at a mile there was no chance that you would see anything like that speed or was it because you wanted the faster upload speed?

Using your telephone number or, if that fails, your full address rather than just the postcode what speeds does the BT Address Checker suggest you might expect to receive?

Because the estimates were saying 80Mbps; Plusnet tell me my guaranteed data rate is 75Mbps. Whilst I was skeptical there's nothing to lose by giving it a go.

that because speed is measured at the DP -- there is a drop to the premise -- most dps are normally 50 metres at max -- yours is around 1.4km which is why the checker tells you 80mm/bps but you only get 8 - and is consistent from when the farm needed to contact the exchange they provided a long DP back to the cabinet

Bah!

I think you mean "premises".

Dictionary definition of "premise".

I cannot believe you were told '75Mbps'!! At a 'crow-flies' 1 mile (probably a lot more of cable run) you cannot get expect to get more than 20Mbps.

Mark Heath's graph shows this clearly at Mark Heath and needs to be thrown back at Plusnet!

Either you are looking at the wrong cabinet in the checker or PN are mis-selling.

In reply to a post by richardwhit:

Plusnet tell me my guaranteed data rate is 75Mbps.

How did they tell you that? I have never heard of such a thing.

In reply to a post by richardwhit:

Hi,

After being teased by BT for a couple of years, my cab was finally upgraded to FTTC recently. Me and one of my neighbours immediately ordered Plusnet's 80Mbps service. Both of us were skeptical we would receive anywhere near that speed given the distance to the cab (~1 mile as the crow flies) but thought it would be fun to see what we got. I was hoping for around 14Mbps but have peaked out at about 4.5Mbps with my neighbour managing ~8Mbps.

Cue around 5 weeks of phonecalls to Plusnet, a couple of no shows from Openreach, and a couple of master socket replacements, we're not much further along. Plusnet have offered to release my neighbour from his contract but I am pushing them to escalate my issue with Openreach, whatever that may achieve.

For information, we live in a semi-rural area in a small community of 11 converted barns. A number of the other neighbours are waiting to see what experience me and the aforementioned neighbour get before deciding if they'll take the punt.

At this point I am not hopeful that Plusnet will be able to do much more, I suspect there is some issue upstream of the farm between us and the cab which I doubt Openreach will remedy. Although there must be a specific issue affecting me given my neighbour gets nearly twice what I do (again have raised that but the openreach engineer that attended would not check the ducts outside for example since he said he wasn't an underground engineer).

I'm wondering what other avenues are left to us? All I can think of is that we will have to wait until we get FTTP rolled out, which may be never, or group together and buy a leased line which will probably be too expensive.

Are there any ways I can force Openreach to accept there is a problem they need to remedy (don't laugh, just asking)? Or can we band together to get FTTP on demand etc.?

Any thoughts appreciated!

If your cabinet was just enabled, then it's probably just an error with the estimated speeds in the database.

When our original cabinet went live (P2), the BT checker suggested we could get 80/20. The line length was around 1.5 miles so in reality we only got 16/1.7.

The checker updated a couple of weeks later to reflect that.

I imagine you're in a similar situation, not sure whether you could use that to get out your contract - or at least move to 40/10 for a lesser monthly fee.

In reply to a post by kasg:

In reply to a post by richardwhit:

Plusnet tell me my guaranteed data rate is 75Mbps.

How did they tell you that? I have never heard of such a thing.

When you sign up it's stated. Something to do with the OFCOM code of practice I think. BT,Talk Talk Business and others do the same

In reply to a post by 23Prince:

When you sign up it's stated.

What, using the term "guaranteed data rate"?

Had this debate elsewhere and some people insist provider goes guarantee, though as far as I tell guarantee means you are free to walk. Not that they will move heaven and earth to get you that connection or throughput speed.

On the original poster, need to know a postcode to take a look and see if this is a checker error. Given you seem to know its a mile to the cabinet then sounds like this is the case.

that because speed is measured at the DP -- there is a drop to the premise -- most dps are normally 50 metres at max -- yours is around 1.4km which is why the checker tells you 80mm/bps but you only get 8 - and is consistent from when the farm needed to contact the exchange they provided a long DP back to the cabinet

The DP in this case at next to the Cab but the premise is 1.4km from the DP

So you're saying the guaranteed speed is incorrect because Openreach have failed to take into account an extra 1.4Km of copper wire? That is ludicrous.

What is wrong with these Openreach people to lead them into making such a fundamental error? Do any of them have any engineering qualifications at all between them, or are they simply the blind leading the blind?

No wonder Ofcom is trying to force them to split away from BT as they are currently bumbling around trying to follow procedures that they have no hope of understanding.

How can this current problem be resolved? Should a new cabinet be installed closer to the premises in question or should a proper fast internet connection using FTTP be installed?

Speed is determined at DP that's a Fact
no speed it determined at premise

that a problem with farms and other rural long drop premises and its doing to be a problem for gigaclear as well as you have at 1500m / or 1800 meet drop from the kerb which is rural you might have fibre to the kerb wont help

as the cost of getting to you premise are going to be astornical

you really have no idea of the network complexity in any shape for Form

You clearly have no idea of what the word premise means either.

However I don't need to understand network complexity, what ever that is, as that appears to be the job of Openreach.

I'm just in the amusing position of standing on the sidelines watching Openreach career from disaster to disaster, most of which seem to be of their own making.

You on the other hand should have a vested interest in comprehending the written word in order to be understood when you make posts. It doesn't do your credibility any good to be coming across as illiterate.

As I said earlier need to know the postcode and which premise, before everyone starts trying to score points against each other in the Broadband Hunger Games

Its a single property that looks to have long dp which is next to the cab -- its a typlcal set up for a farm -- they would normally have been Exchange only but where that distance to to long or not easty to resolve -- you then put the dp next to the cab and have a long drop to the premise -- the infrastructure was built to enable the farmer to get a call to the exchange

In reply to a post by Fastman2:

... there is a drop to the premise --
...
The DP in this case at next to the Cab but the premise is 1.4km from the DP

Link.

A building is "premises". "Premise" is not the singular, not one building. Though "premise" does have a plural - premises, which is nothing to do with buildings.

ricahrd I would not get fibre on demand if there are couple at farm Ie more that one lline / Business of you suggest you contact [email protected] - fibre could be run down the 1.4km and put a connectorised block at entrance to premises -- that will be a better commercial proposition as it s direct arrangement with Openreah to build the network -- which no excess construction charges and then once Its done you by a Standard FTTP product on a yearly term contract

Hi,

The threading on this forum is a little hard to follow for a newbie, so apologies if I am replying in the wrong place/miss some questions.

To address some of the points raised:

* "Guaranteed data rate" - I've not heard this term before either, but Plusnet seem to be using it to determine the speed below which they'll release me from my contract.

* As I've stated elsewhere I was skeptical of the advertised speed, however given there is nothing to lose by signing up to 80Mbps I thought I'd give it a punt. I expected, and would be happy for the time being with around 14 to 16Mbps given the distance. But I am getting ~4.5Mbps, whilst my neighbour gets ~8Mbps. I'd seen the "Mark Heath" graph before and it is what I was basing my expectation on.

* I've PM'd the person asking for my postcode

* I'm not sure where the DP is, there doesn't appear to be one next to the cab from what I can tell, but I am not sure what to look for! The main farmhouse was on an EO line, but the barns were converted about 14 years ago and were plumbed into a cabinet.

* I've emailed [email protected] - will see what they come back.


My original post may have been a little wordy, but essentially

* I am convinced I should be getting more bandwidth than I am - especially given my immediate neighbour is getting roughly double what I am. So any suggestions on what I need to do/say when dealing with Plusnet/Openreach to get them to deal with the problem properly rather than just being stuck in a loop between them would be appreciated

* If the max we can achieve on the farm from FTTC is ~9Mbps what other options, short of a massive investment in a leased line, do we have at this point?

Edited by deleted (Sun 04-Dec-16 10:10:48)

Thinking on:

* I'm not sure where the DP is, there doesn't appear to be one next to the cab from what I can tell, but I am not sure what to look for! The main farmhouse was on an EO line, but the barns were converted about 14 years ago and were plumbed into a cabinet.

We have two BT manhole covers in the courtyard, I have assumed one feeds one set of barns whilst the second feeds the other - would the DP's not be in those?

I have asked Openreach to lift the mahole covers and check the state of whatever is underneath, however the engineer said he wasn't allowed and an underground engineer would need to do it. I am currently waiting on one of those (didn't show up at the allotted appointment day/time).

Not sure why thread started down the DP path...

Postcode itself is 2km away from the cabinet, and thus unless the DP is also at the cabinet (very rare and odd as other premises and postcodes existing between posters location and the cabinet and get correct estimates).

Our system suggests 2 Mbps or less from VDSL2.

Only possibility is that a new cabinet has been built very close, but no sign of this having happened, so it looks as if the BT Wholesale checker has a mistake in it it (face of feigned shock), generally the errors are about not getting it, and sometimes the errors reveal something that is planned, so if original poster pesters me via email on Monday I'll pester Openreach in turn to get this checked, and as I suspect reducing the checker to a 2 to 4 Mbps or less VDSL2 speed.

Why don't you know why it started down the DP path?

I'll also confirm that predicted speed is based on the DP. Often records don't exist for cabling from the DP to the house, especially in rural areas.

He's given his address to the provider who have queried it with the Openreach database which has matched it to a DP. He's then been told an estimated speed to that DP. But he's miles away from the DP and that's why the speed is rubbish.

The DP itself COULD be very near the cabinet, you've no reason to think it isn't.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

As I said earlier need to know the postcode and which premise, before everyone starts trying to score points against each other in the Broadband Hunger Games

No one is trying to score points against each other. But you've got several Openreach people telling you that it is not at all unusual to have a DP near a cab, and then a very long run of carrier poles to a farm. But you're saying you don't understand why we are talking about the DP.

Edited by deleted (Mon 05-Dec-16 08:10:30)

The estimates are supposed to be for an individual premises. You appear to be suggesting the estimates would be the same for all premises connected to the DP, but this is not the case.

Premise -- Something previously stated or a base assumption
Premises -- A house or building, together with its land and outbuildings

So it is fibre to premises not fibre to premise.

You beat me to it.
This really winds me up too.

In reply to a post by Thumper:

You beat me to it.

Beat you to it? You've only just registered...

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

In reply to a post by Thumper:

You beat me to it.

Beat you to it? You've only just registered...

I was replying to the post by RobertoS.

What is the relevance in that I registered about a month ago?

Except you replied to BatBoy, who gets it right, not to either of the two who always get it wrong even after having it pointed out many times.

Why people refuse to accept it when repeatedly presented with the dictionary definition is beyond me. It isn't just in the forums it is always incorrectly used.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

The estimates are supposed to be for an individual premises. You appear to be suggesting the estimates would be the same for all premises connected to the DP, but this is not the case.

All I can tell you is that I've been told by many different people on the FTTC helpdesk at Openreach that the speed estimate is to the DP only. Anything after the DP is not taken into account.

That's all I know, do you work for Openreach yourself? If you do, ask them yourself.

Edited by deleted (Mon 05-Dec-16 10:51:09)

It was all just DP based at one time, but plan was to nuance it and improve over time.

In this case the great distance is readily apparent on the map, and doubt the DP is located close to the cabinet in this case

Thanks again for the response.

"Our system" - what system is that?

Looking at the "Mark Heath" raw distance vs speed graph it suggests around 16.5Mbps for a 2km distance - what is the reason for such a large delta between your system and this graph? i.e. what additional information/data is your system taking into account that this graph isn't?

Our table on speeds over distance which pre-dates Mr Heath is at http://www.thinkbroadband.com/guide/fibre-broadband.... the public copy stops at 1.5km because things become much more variable at that distance.

Our system - i.e. the system that feeds https://labs.thinkbroadband.com/local

So while 16 Mbps at 2km is possible for some and we see some (we have a distance/speed plot created from speed tests - not published this yet but indicates no big rush needed to update our distance model) a much safer estimate would be 5 to 10 Mbps.

Those getting 16 Mbps at 2km are probably on thicker copper, and without access to all the local line records you have no way of knowing.

You see if I could get 10Mbps then I'd probably be more happy At least that would allow us to do more than just stream Netflix at one time.

I guess I am just wondering how realistic it is to keep pushing Plusnet with my fault and when to give up. There's a big functional and real world difference between 4.5Mbps and 10Mbps....

Although the British often think it means an absolute undertaking to do something, a guarantee normally just means your money back if the problem can't be fixed eg guaranteed delivery by Christmas means your money back if it does not arrive in time, not that is is absolutely certain that it will.