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Hi,
Bit of a story and hope you guys might be able to validate what im been told regarding sycn speeds
New house, 300m from the Cab, according to BT im 410m from the cab.
Moved in and the line was running at 80/20 worked like this for around 3 months.
I have a new Mk3 filtered socket, no extensions, no phones, and just the router direct in to the master.
ISP is SSE
Over the next 3 months there has been some drops in power due to it been a new estate of 40 houses.
Line speed has been dropping.. Now reached around 57/20. This has been happening as the power has gone on and off to the site.
checking the dslchecker it shows the following:
VDSL Range A (Clean) 80 65 20 20
VDSL Range B (Impacd)73.3 40 20 13.7
This fits nicely with what i saw for the first 3 months.
The IP profile of the line was 79.8
But now is 57.7
Today openreach have been out to look at the line, They are saying it all looks fine. According to their numbers i should be getting 40 - 60. When the line came in at 57 they were happy..
As a test, he walked to the cab, and tested it there. It was leaving the cab at 80/20, and the reduction seem to happen before it reaches me..
After reconnecting my line and walking back to the house it had risen to 60/20.. He could not explain the rise..
He said it could be as more noise has been added to the cable coming to the estate, and more customers coming on stream.
He said the "profile" is set to 80/20 FAST, and should be ok.
As the line has been reset, should I now try avoid any power drops in the supply to the router?
(reason for asking hes left the router plugged in to the wrong socket - Wife wont be happy)
Does all the above sound right?
Should i be happy with 60?
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If the router gets powered off due to a power cut (or because you powered it off) you should make sure it remains off for 30 minutes. This is to avoid DLM taking any action, which in your case means slowing your sync speed down.
If you don't do this and DLM slows you down, it takes ages (weeks) for DLM to speed you up again once the line is stable.
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Any chance you have access to your modem stats?
I am just wondering if DLM has capped your downstream threshold (looks around 60Mbps based on the IP Profile).
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Not likely if the engineer was getting 80/20 at the cab?
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Thanks..
I can do that... Just need to try recover my lost speed 
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so it could be distance + noise?
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Every line gets 80/20 at the cab...
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Unless on a 55/10, 40/10 or 40/2 product of course.
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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There is crosstalk, i.e. the signal radiates from the other lines, so if you were the first to order then there was no cross talk which means excellent speeds, as demand increases and more people order the speed can and will drop off, Impossible to predict accurately without masses of information which is not available anyway.
The power cuts may not have helped, especially if the power blipped off/on/off rather than a clean off and clean on some time later. Best bet if you get a power cut is unplug modem, and a similar thing with expensive electronics as when power returns from power cuts it is a time when devices are more likely to die.
If the engineer got a sync of 80 at the cabinet then suggests the DLM systems have not banded your connection.
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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Unless on a 55/10, 40/10 or 40/2 product of course. or the port is faulty
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To carry out that test, does the engineer disconnect the extended D-Side in the FTTC, so removing whatever loading and noise there may be in normal configuration?
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Not if they're banded which is what I assume you think DLM has done to this line.
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I really dont get the point of them testing at the cab, the process seems something followed by staff who are under trained to understand the technology.
They should be able to tell if a line is banded by checking line records, so why test at a cab? One reason might be to give an excuse to a customer well its full speed at the cab so everything is hunky dory, but I suppose it could also be done to rule out a faulty port or tie pair.
What would be more productive is to test at various points between you and the cab.
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What would be more productive is to test at various points between you and the cab.
Couldn't agree more.
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The IP profile of the line was 79.8
All FTTC IP Profile set as 77.44 (without G.INP) or 77.35 (with G.INP) on all Openreach Fibre To The Cabinet if the line is full sync at 79999K
Edited by adslmax (Thu 26-Jan-17 19:00:27)
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Good pickup max .
Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 54999/14466Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
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A banded line will only achieve the banded level at the cabinet. It's the easiest way to prove banding to a not so knowledgeable engineer.
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Engineer should have access to Brandenburg NGA data...
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Should being the oeprative word.
Some engineers don't know their ar5e from their elbow, or simply can't be bothered to go that little bit further.
Edited by deleted (Thu 26-Jan-17 22:17:17)
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ok, thanks for all the reply's..
So seems im stuck with 60mb..
I was just lucky that when I was the only person with broadband in the street, I was getting a better speed.
Maybe following the reset I might see it creep up a bit.
Is 60 at 400m about right?
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http://www.increasebroadbandspeed.co.uk/2013/chart-b...
Could be about right if you take into account crosstalk etc.
I am about 300m on a brand new estate and only getting around 47 at the moment as it was just upgraded (new AIO cab went in), the DSL checker suggests 80 80 20 20, so will have to make a few calls later today.
Regards PGre
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At 440m I have a sync of 73Mbps so your is a little low. However, as others have said crosstalk is probably the main reason. There are not many lines in te cable bundle that supplies my house but the effect of cross talk can be very noticeable. One other property causes a 6Mbps loss in speed for me - if they turn their modem off, I can see a significant change..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
M H C
taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
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You may get a higher connection speed as the snr changes get rolled out - Openreach are reducing the target snrm from 6 to 3 which might give you an extra 5-10 mbps.
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I wish Openreach would put an AIO in on the new estate I've just moved to. I'm getting 29 Mbps on a 600m line with potentially another 30 fibre customers when the owners of the remaining houses move in.
Edited by simon194 (Fri 27-Jan-17 11:31:16)
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thanks eveyone
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Hassel AKA encourage your developer to fund it perhaps if its a new build.
Thats what I did. Took a year but its there now.
Regards PGre
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Probably a bit too late now because the developer will be off the estate by the end of March.
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They had left site when I started asking... so worth asking now.
If you don't ask you don't get as my mother used to say !
Regards PGre
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depends who wants to fund it -- I assume the one you have mentioned is Kempston 34 -- which was co funded by the developer / Openreach
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Taylor Wimpey paid for 2 large Huawei cabinets on a new estate near me recently. The development had been completed for over 2 years. Pressure from residents and local newspaper coverage about 1mb ADSL in brand new houses and they got their cheque book out.
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which development is that ?
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To carry out that test, does the engineer disconnect the extended D-Side in the FTTC, so removing whatever loading and noise there may be in normal configuration?
Yes.
these comments are my own and in no way represent any company that i may or may not be linked too.
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Ummmm.
The engineers do not have access to the FTTC cabinet. Only to the patchboard in the PCP that connects to it.
They can check what sync they get on the VDSL2 link at the PCP, but that is also carrying the phone signal (noise-filtered).
Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 54999/14466Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
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so why test at a cab
To ensure the service is working ok leaving the cab as there are many ports (thousands) that have faults due to the tie cables and the terminations in the cabinets
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Interesting in that about 3 weeks back, I actually saw one open the local FTTC, literally glancing in.
My attention to his presence was first drawn by the sounds of one panel of the associated UG chamber being opened, so I headed to the window, noting it was the panel at the far end from the FTTC, where the link ducting is actually reversed to enter the main duct to the PCP across the road.
He simply glanced down in to it.
He then opened the RH side of the FTTC, where there is the back-plane and the Filter/Links.
Again a glance and closed.
He then paced the slightly convoluted path of the Link Duct to that UG chamber, reversing to follow the main duct across the road towards the PCP, still clearly pacing deliberately, probably counting his steps to get a measure of the distance.
Very shortly after disappearing in the vicinity of the PCP, I heard similar sounds as though a panel was being lifted/moved at the corresponding UG Chamber.
Don't know about the PCP itself - but seems likely.
He drove off very shortly after that, no obvious work on connections etc.
-----------------
Normally for BB upgrades, there is only one engineer.
On that immediately following Friday as we returned from shopping, there were two OR vans parked in the nearest layby;m and the two engineers were conversing.
Unfortunately having shopping to dispose of, I was unable to go back out, to find out what was happening.
---------------
I accept that it is difficult to work out what was happening, whether the two jobs were connected etc etc; and of course I don't know if the Thursday engineer was duly authorised to open the FTTC.
On another occasion, I have seen a non-BT/OR engineer go in to the RH side of the FTTC.
====================
The patch board you refer to - is it physically in the PCP or is the RH side of the FTTC?
Thanks.
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The patch board you refer to - is it physically in the PCP or is the RH side of the FTTC
It's in the PCP unless it's an AIO of course.
The Service Delivery people don't go into the FTTC only the NGA network engineers as a rule.
Edited by witchunt (Sat 28-Jan-17 18:33:39)
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As witchunt says. The one you saw opening the FTTC cab would be a network engineer.
Obviously they have to be opened by someone from time to time, for enhancements or to fix faults, but not the engineers who routinely come to deal with faults we report.
Specifically the one the question was about where I wasn't happy with the answer.
The patchboard these engineers access is in the PCP, where the E-side/D-side connection is broken, with the two ends going to "paired pairs" on the patchboard that are hardwired to similar in the FTTC cabinet at cabinet/card installation time.
Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 54999/14466Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Edited by RobertoS (Sat 28-Jan-17 18:46:55)
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Thanks Robertos.
Are the PCP Patchboard connections easily broken/separated, such as would be the case with the FTTC Filter-Links, where simple removal would take all D-Side loading including Links away abruptly; and also be easily restored?
Or is the analysis/monitoring equipment simply "croc-clipped" on to the PCP Patchboard, effectively as an added temporary load?
Or what?
No doubt you will be well acquainted with equipment that suddenly leaps in to life or improves when the load is removed.
Also bearing in mind the earlier answer, that the circuit is broken.
Edited by deleted (Sun 29-Jan-17 07:31:08)
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No idea re the main questions. As for the "circuit" being broken when the jumpers are installed, I didn't say that. I'm not a telecoms engineeer but AIUI they can do that without breaking the phone circuit, by bridging the circuit while they do it. Again, wrt what they actually do, I've no idea. I'm talking about the final configuration, not the methods of achieving it.
Any ADSLx circuit obviously gets broken, that's the whole point of the exercise, and the phone circuit ends up diverted through the DSLAM line card where the phone and VDSL2 signals are merged.
Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 54999/14466Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Edited by RobertoS (Sun 29-Jan-17 09:48:10)
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Hi,
Yep PCP34 was the one I was talking about.
The good news, as I understood it, for new developments is that OR would put in FTTP as default now, so great news moving forward.
Although I wonder if it means the developer still has to ask for it.
I would have hoped that OR would have done this for years, since they then effectively keep VM out and as there are limited numbers of CP's who offer FTTP then they end up with more BT revenues also.
That's of course just my way of looking at it.
Regards PGre
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Developers have to ask for it otherwise OR won't know about the development or even if they want any openreach network at all.
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My apologies.
I was inferring the posting by -
MC31
(regular)
Sat 28-Jan-17 16:47:43
I was one of the Instructors who set up the RAF's early courses in "Fault Finding" back in 1961, at RAF Locking #1 Radio School, based mainly on RADAR and Radio equipment; and not excluding other types in principle, hence my continuing detailed interest in what is in use today, circuit disturbance etc
Signs
Symptons
Diagnosis
Treatment
Prognosis
The long-standing Medical Mantra.
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What was your predicted speed when you took out the contract?
At 440m I have a sync of 73Mbps so your is a little low. However, as others have said crosstalk is probably the main reason. There are not many lines in te cable bundle that supplies my house but the effect of cross talk can be very noticeable. One other property causes a 6Mbps loss in speed for me - if they turn their modem off, I can see a significant change..
Bundle? That's not a word used inside the company. Do you mean cable?
100 pair cables usually leave the cabinets, then split off to 50 pair or 20 pair cables as required.
Edited by deleted (Sun 29-Jan-17 11:32:19)
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Yes in the cab / PCP .Depending on the type of cab but in most you would physically cut down / disconnect the line.In the new tool less cabs you dont have to cut the line down but using the test adaptor does disconnect the line.
these comments are my own and in no way represent any company that i may or may not be linked too.
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Sounds like he was there to put in a new tie cable ( FTTC to PCP).
We can open the right hand door on a FTTC (it the same tool the opends a cab ) but not the left hand side.In practice the only guys who go in to the RHS would be NS guys putting in tie cables.
these comments are my own and in no way represent any company that i may or may not be linked too.
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fttp now for developments greater that 30 - assuming registered with Openreach either in (April 2016 - 200+) and November 2016 (30+) assuming a 9 month first occupancy date from Date of Registration
prior to this OR was only able to offer Telephony (standard) or Fibre additional Contract signed) now Fibre is standard (but not copper network provided in these)
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Sounds like he was there to put in a new tie cable ( FTTC to PCP).
We can open the right hand door on a FTTC (it the same tool the opends a cab ) but not the left hand side.In practice the only guys who go in to the RHS would be NS guys putting in tie cables.
I had a look at one once before it had any power to it. Looks like the door is alarmed too. So I'm not sure if risk opening it just to "have a look".
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on the SSE router there is no SNR number given, but there is a Noise Margin..
Thats currently sat 9.6db does that sound right for a FTTC line?
Cheers
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SNR is almost always an incorrect label. It should be SNRM, (Signal to Noise Ratio Margin). In short, Noise Margin .
Somewhere within a few decimal points of 6dB is normal. A value of 9.6dB is high, and signifies the connection was made at a time of high noise, which has stopped, or that there has been a spell of problems or ongoing ones causing the line to be "banded".
Banding is where the connection speed, (which may be labelled Rate or Actual), is capped, often at a recognisable figure. It's the opposite way round to ADSLx, where the margin is raised to reduce the speed. On FTTC the speed is reduced so the margin rises.
What is your connection speed please? (Not your speed test speed).
Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 54999/14466Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
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Thanks for the reply..
connection was 78mb ish back in July..
Now its down to 57mb... Openreach are saying its cross talk on the line..
Leaving the Cab 400m away its 80/20..
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Of course it will be 80/20 at the cabinet - there will be minimal cross talk at that point and any that is there will only change the max attainable (at the cabinet) to be slightly reduced.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
M H C
taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
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So when the ISP come back to me today I should be asking for the SNR to be looked at?
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ISP's can't modify the SNRM on FTTC.
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We need the exact sync/connection speed/(actual) rate reported by your router. That can give us a clue as to whether or not it is banded. That's why I asked for it at the end of my explanation about the two possible reasons for the high noise margin.
Cross-talk does not cause a high noise margin. It simply reduces the strength of the signal so reduces the maximum attainable.
How noise margin works was written for ADSLx but the basic principles apply to FTTC as well. What doesn't apply is that on FTTC ISPs cannot alter the noise margin, and can't ask for it to be altered, for the simple reason I ave earlier - it isn't used that way. A high margin is a result of banding or a sync at a noisy time.
Edit: On looking through the thread I notice MrSaffon has pointed out that a sync of 80/20 at the cabinet means the line is not banded. So - how long is it since you rebooted the router?
Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 54999/14466Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Edited by RobertoS (Mon 30-Jan-17 12:35:12)
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I will get the numbers when I get home...
Understand the ISP cant change it, but they do have a case open with OR..
Last reboot was Sunday. We had a power cut for about 3mins..
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So you are still having power cuts. How often?
Do you also have flickering lights sometimes, without a full power cut?
Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 54999/14466Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
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on the SSE router there is no SNR number given, but there is a Noise Margin..
Thats currently sat 9.6db does that sound right for a FTTC line?
Cheers What modem have SSE provided you? Does it give an exact sync figure? A banded line always syncs at the exact same figure, like 59,999 (it can change to the likes of 59,997 with interleaving). Some modems don't provide a correct sync figure though.
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Line stats:
DSL Type VDSL2
DSL Mode Interleaved
Line Rate 20 Mbps 57.83 Mbps
Data Transferred 1365.11 MBytes 3651.34 MBytes
Output Power 5.6 dBm 5.6 dBm
Line Attenuation 0 dB 0 dB
Noise Margin 9.6 dB 6.2 dB
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That doesn't look like banding, but the interleaving will be causing a loss of 8Mbps-11Mbps in your connection speed. It will also have added at least 8ms to your latency (ping). The engineer saying the line profile was 80/20 Fast simply means it wasn't banded at the time but I'm not sure if that "Fast" refers to Fast Path which you are not on or a lower level setting.
I may have asked this before - how long since you rebooted the router? I gather it was disconnected on Thursday but was it turned off at the time?
Your 9.6dB noise margin was a false alarm . That is the upstream value. The downstream is 6.2dB, pretty well exactly what it should be. I have my doubts about the correctness of the power figures - cheap router GUIs often get in a mess  .
I think you are just suffering from bad cross-talk I'm afraid. That ( or something) seems to be causing a high number of errors on the line which is why interleaving has kicked in.
There isn't an electricity substation close to the cabinet, your house, or the likely cable route is there? Or your television or anything else electronic near the DSL system?
Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 54999/14466Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Edited by RobertoS (Mon 30-Jan-17 23:36:41)
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Hi, thanks for the reply..
Can interleaving be removed?
its been 48 hours since the last reboot..
However in the months previous I have had 2 reboots per week.. sometime 2 per day
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With a stable line and reasonable error counts it will remove itself. Otherwise, no. The ISP cannot request it.
However, your description of these power cuts and so on I reckon rule it out.
Everyone on that estate should be getting very stroppy about them. There is something seriously wrong.
Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 54999/14466Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
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Its electrical work going on in the village... Its all done now.
Supply to the 20 new houses needed to be upgraded.
so for me I just need to keep the line stable and up for as-long as possible.
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