New vs old FTTPoD TCO

After reading about the price changes and reading various others' build logs, I'm again curious by FTTPoD and have pinged a quote request to Cerberus about it just now.

In my case, I'm connected to Shepherd's Bush (LWSHE), but in all my sofa-based distance estimations, using the old Band pricing and the new £50 per premises passed discount, the discount exceeds the band price, even when only counting MDUs passed as 1 property and only counting 1 side of the road:
- <100m (Band A/£200) away and passes at least 9 properties (£450) is my cabinet
- ~350m (Band B/£600) away and passes at least 31 properties (£1550), is where I suspect the Aggregation Node is
- ~750m (Band E/£1800) away and passing at least 54 properties (£2700) is the Exchange

Now according to Mr Saffron's comment that OR don't believe the TCO changes all that much, it will have to mean that build costs are increased. The question is how much.

So if anyone has had any quotes since the price change, would you mind sharing them so we can compare both old and new build costs? I'll do the same once I hear back of course!

The following needs to be highlighted...

FTTP on Demand pricing for installation is outside of the control of ISP�s. Each speculative submission made slows down the response time for ISP�s, so please think twice about whether you are serious about going ahead with an order.

My intent has been to meet with Openreach to fully understand the £50 discount, so that people can do their own ball park estimates without having to use of time of the small number of small providers who offer Fibre On Demand. This has not happened yet, simply because so much is going on that I cannot afford the time out to meet somewhere with a white board to run through a variety of expected scenarios.

If FTTPoD is reasonable, I will plump for it immediately. Equally if it was the old, old pricing now, where I have the opportunity to install FTTPoD, I would do so immediately.

I've just submitted for planning permission to get a significant amount of work on my new house, which will be completed in 6-8 months, and need to know costs, as it depends whether I get a new shed versus FTTPoD, as obviously first class internet access is a lot more important to me than a shed (and I can do that later).

In reply to a post by zzing123:

Now according to Mr Saffron's comment that OR don't believe the TCO changes all that much, it will have to mean that build costs are increased. The question is how much.

New build costs are basically ECCs. It depends on what infrastructure is in place at the moment and what needs to be built.

I just replied to your post in another thread. I was thinking to myself "Surely he doesn't think it covers every single property passed by fibre between you and the aggregation node. Clearly from your maths above this is your assumption.

You need to read note 5.
"and an amount per premise we determine to have been enabled (to use FTTP) by the relevant build work"

At best it will be properties that would be served by your new Fibre DP.
This would be my guess, as these are the only properties that have everything in place once the FTTPod order is complete.

At worst it's £50 per property on the order, which for most orders will be a single property. I don't believe this will be the case. AIUI if my neighbour orders the new FTTPod and we share a DP, once his order goes live my address would show WBC-FTTP as available.

That would match up with note 5.
"and an amount per premise we determine to have been enabled (to use FTTP) by the relevant build work"

Edited by j0hn83 (Sat 17-Feb-18 01:52:30)

Each speculative submission made slows down the response time for ISP�s, ....

This a rod they've made for their own back, previous banded initial quotes were instant - the new system apparently requires human input/calculations. They designed the new system, the buck stops with them if it performs poorly under load. Customers I'm sure would love not to bother Openreach for estimates - but if you're interested you have no choice but to request one.

How do you conclude that ISPs designed the Openreach pricing system?

It is also the case that the old system required a survey to determine the actual charge by Openreach. The banding method merely gave some idea of the magnitude.

The new system merely removes the high three-year recovery costs and frontloads them onto the initial installation. Which to me makes sense.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

frontloads them onto the initial installation.

Source?

Completely agree ... my guess is that if the manifold/CBT provided to complete FTTPoD order can serve 12 properties (usual manifold) that�s where the �properties passed� bit comes from.

Don�t forget, the current smallest CBT is a four port..... £150 off. (maybe)*








* all conjecture on my part. nothing to do with what I may, or may not do for a living.

That's the whole point. Been discussed in forums and news items on several sites for months before the detail was announced this month.

I posted it just in case anyone wasn't aware of this. As it appears you weren't.

(Since the revamp of the Main Site here I can't find how to do a Search for relevant articles, though have a vague memory of succeeding once).

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

How do you conclude that ISPs designed the Openreach pricing system?.

I don't - if you ask Cerberus for a quote under the new system they pass the request onto Openreach who work out the initial quote(could take a couple of weeks for a quote reply). Openreach changed the system for quotes so can't really complain about the consequences.

In reply to a post by Spud2003:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

How do you conclude that ISPs designed the Openreach pricing system?.

I don't

Given that you quoted about it slowing things down for ISPs, then say it's a rod they've made for their own backs, to me that means a rod the ISPs have made ....

Perhaps you should have clarified at the time. Particularly as Openreach has only one back, not several backs. At a stretch one could say that Openreach have made for their own back, but certainly not that OR have made for their own backs.

I don't see how it is a rod for Openreach's back anyway.

As I late explained anyway, there has always been a need for a paid survey, and no sensible CP would quote a fixed price until that had been accepted.

- if you ask Cerberus for a quote under the new system they pass the request onto Openreach who work out the initial quote(could take a couple of weeks for a quote reply).

Isn't that what they did anyway? Not knowing where or even which the aggregation point was?

Openreach changed the system for quotes so can't really complain about the consequences.

Where are Openreach complaining about the consequences of their price structure change?

Openreach designed the new system, and I talked about customers "bothering" Openreach for estimates- not ISPs ... it's fairly clear who I was referring to. Neither did I use the term "backs" - but back -

This a rod they've made for their own back ...

And furthermore -

Isn't that what they did anyway? Not knowing where or even which the aggregation point was? ...

No, the old system gave you a ball park quote in minutes - not (potentially) weeks. That's the difference.

I'm not totally against pedantry, but three of your four points are wrong ... and you just seem to be looking for an argument.

In reply to a post by Spud2003:

Openreach designed the new system

There is no �new system � wrt FTTPoD quotations. Under the old pricing it was Openreach who supplied the quotation to the isp who then forwarded this onto the customer. The same procedure still applies under the new pricing structure. Yes, now that the min term has been reduced to 12 months Openreach will probably now get more requests initially but once people realise installation costs have been jacked up then that should keep the Walter Mitty types away.

Btw my quote from Fluidone took ~ 2 weeks last year. As BT Wholesale haven�t even released their new pricing yet then it makes sense for ISPs to delay sending out quotations until BTW�s pricing is out in the wild (23 Feb. )

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

There is no �new system � wrt FTTPoD quotations ..

I'm not referring to a detailed quote but the ball park banding quote, they used to give you instantly - now if you contact them they don't give you an instant banding quote but contact Openreach and make you wait for up to two weeks ... that is new.

In reply to a post by Spud2003:

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

There is no �new system � wrt FTTPoD quotations ..

I'm not referring to a detailed quote but the ball park banding quote, they used to give you instantly - now if you contact them they don't give you an instant banding quote but contact Openreach and make you wait for up to two weeks ... that is new.

Detailed quote ( new pricing) or banding based quote (old pricing), it still has to come from Openreach and is never instant. There is/was no such thing as a ball park quote, because the price OR quoted for bands was almost always the correct price so had to be realistic. Hence why it took ~2 weeks for me to get a quotation 12 months ago.

Edited by deleted (Sun 18-Feb-18 09:48:50)

Ah, you mean Cerberus looked at the publicly available banding prices just like many of us here did. Big deal . More likely of course, the BT Wholesale ones based on those plus backhaul data prices plus BTW profit margin. Then added their own margin to the installation and ongoing prices.

The only thing I have wrong was in mis-reading �back/backs�.

What did you mean by �customers�? End users aren�t Openreach�s customers and can�t bother them for estimates.

I haven�t been looking for an argument. I have simply been countering the twaddle you posted and seem to wish to continue ranting about.

Openreach changed the system for quotes so can't really complain about the consequences.

They aren�t doing. You are.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Openreach changed the system for quotes so can't really complain about the consequences.

They aren�t doing. You are.

+1

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Ah, you mean Cerberus looked at the publicly available banding prices just like many of us here did. Big deal .

Perhaps you have records of where all the aggregation nodes are? You don't? Then you'd have to contact FluidOne or Cerberus to find out which band you were in ... because there's quite a price difference between bands A to K ... go and troll elsewhere.

Edited by Spud2003 (Sun 18-Feb-18 10:00:14)

In reply to a post by Spud2003:

I'm not referring to a detailed quote but the ball park banding quote, they used to give you instantly - now if you contact them they don't give you an instant banding quote but contact Openreach and make you wait for up to two weeks ... that is new.

Fyi, the new system is no different. It's the same initial quotation system that was used before and is used now. The difference now is how the pricing is structured.

Openreach know this well because they do it day in, day out for ethernet circuits.

In reply to a post by Spud2003:

This a rod they've made for their own back, previous banded initial quotes were instant

And quotes are not instant now?

In reply to a post by Spud2003:

the new system apparently requires human input/calculations.

And the previous FoD system didn't?

https://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/7858-new-openrea...

The original item.

Cost of integrating Google search was too high for our search volume, just add site:www.thinkbroadband.com on your search engine

As for On Demand Charge being higher, have stood face to face (or may have been sat) with Openreach management and yes this is the plan, i.e. some changes in allowances for helping others, since a neighbour on same manifold will once you are installed get access to native FTTP charges. How many manifolds are counted is where the debate stands.

On the volume of requests I think so many are seeing the monthly cost and then not realising the magnitude of the on demand build charge - the article gives a couple of examples though.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

https://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/7858-new-openrea...

The original item.

Thanks.

Cost of integrating Google search was too high for our search volume, just add site:www.thinkbroadband.com on your search engine

That works brilliantly. I've just tried a few different searches .

In reply to a post by Spud2003:

Perhaps you have records of where all the aggregation nodes are? You don't? Then you'd have to contact FluidOne or Cerberus to find out which band you were in ... because there's quite a price difference between bands A to K ... go and troll elsewhere.

You think CPs have aggregation point location data? Including which would be used for any particular address? That doesn't sound like the sort of information Openreach likes to disclose.

I suggest they simply made an educated guess on the distance based on the BT Wholesale FTTC estimates for the property and assumed some rule of thumb additional distance. Bearing in mind FTTP/FTTPoD does not route through the cabinet. (Perhaps it occasionally may go through the cabinet's chamber purely for access to existing ducts).

Also I believe the aggregation point used is not necessarily the one that services the user's FTTC cabinet.

Once BT Wholesale prices are available to CPs I expect they will still be able to give ballpark figures in a similar way.

(not specifically aimed at RobertS - just a general question).

So with these new price arrangements coming in to force, when do you think the 2 ISP's mentioned will start offering residential customers the opportunity to buy FOD?

From my opinion and reading the announcements OR clearly are wanting to encourage much more take-up of FOD and this is primary aimed at residential customers with the lowering of all the prices. It seems OR are prepared to take the hit on their costs to get more customers ordering the service.

In reply to a post by bowdon:

So with these new price arrangements coming in to force, when do you think the 2 ISP's mentioned will start offering residential customers the opportunity to buy FOD?

Fluidone only sell their services to business customers, irrespective of min term on any package. However with Cerberus you may be able to take out services as a residential customer on service contracts of 24 months or less but you would need to speak to them for clarification.

Also you�re mistaken if you think the new pricing structure = cheaper ownership of FTTPoD. The overall costs are expected to remain the same (for lone installs at least) which means higher install costs in order to compensate for the lower monthly costs and shorter min term.

Edited by deleted (Sun 18-Feb-18 13:24:50)

Honestly I think given what seems to have been happening they will continue to focus on business, i.e. where people understand the timescales of quoting for services and are simply not just curious

The only other way would be to take a small non-refundable deposit upfront, that is deducted once you order a service.

Yep, afaik Fluidone have always been a business only ISP and I�m not expecting that to change with the new FTTPoD pricing. Though if someone is REALLY determined, they could setup a new biz with Companies House and then place the order with Fluidone. Not sure if they would pass their credit check though lol (FO run credit check on CH registration #)

Edited by deleted (Sun 18-Feb-18 14:00:49)

FYI, I spoke to FluidOne a few weeks ago and learned some things which may be relevant here.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I suggest they simply made an educated guess on the distance based on the BT Wholesale FTTC estimates for the property and assumed some rule of thumb additional distance.

No. The property banding came from him entering my phone number/postcode into an OpenReach or BTW system; it's not estimated by the service provider, and it's not related to FTTC.

He said that under the old (banded) model, the instant price quote was generally the price the customer ended up paying. He knew of only one case where Excess Construction Charges (ECC) had been levied, and that was on a Band G property - 1500m to 2000m radially from the nearest aggregation node.

Under the new model, there's no instant quote at all. You can get a free non-binding estimate, which is a "desk survey" made by someone looking at OR looking at a GIS map, and this is supposed to take 2 weeks. Only when you place an order will you get the actual cost - and if you decide to back out at that stage, you'll have to pay a £245+VAT survey charge.

He said he knew of several people in the longer distance brackets were getting their orders in before the 23rd Feb switchover to new pricing, as he was expecting the installation costs for long distances to increase substantially. The costs for short distances (old bands A-D) he expected to remain more or less unchanged in total.

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

Fluidone only sell their services to business customers, irrespective of min term on any package. However with Cerberus you may be able to take out services as a residential customer on service contracts of 24 months or less but you would need to speak to them for clarification.

FluidOne intend to keep the 36 month contract period for FTTPoD, even though the OR contract drops to 12 months. Cerberus' webpage says they are dropping to 12 months.

I also came across a third provider of FTTPoD: Amvia. Their pricing sounds like it's in the same ballpark or a bit lower than FluidOne, but I don't have like-for-like quotations to compare. It's possible they are just reselling F1.

Speaking personally: I'm 500m radially from my VDSL cabinet, about 800m copper length, which means I get about 35M down / 5M up on VDSL; I guessed I would be in band C or D. However, I am actually in band G. That makes it clear that the aggregation node is not the cabinet.

Given that the total cost over 3 years on the old model was so high, I decided to take a gamble and wait and see what the new pricing turns out to be. I live in a cul-de-sac and I have some evidence that there is fibre running along the road that runs past the end. That road continues into the countryside, but less than a mile further along, fibre pops up out of the ground and then runs along telephone poles. (It's definitely fibre. It says "Corning Optical Cable" on it, and the junction boxes have laser warning symbols on them )

I don't know whether OR would be able to make use of the existing cable which goes near my house, or would have to pull an entirely fresh one for FTTPoD. But I thought it was worth finding out.

Regarding the estimate and final quote, surely there should be some expectation that the two are close?

If the final quote turns out to be significantly higher than the estimate, then the poor punter will be paying £250 if he cancels which would be rather unfair...

Edited by deleted (Mon 19-Feb-18 09:32:44)

In reply to a post by Bill100:

Regarding the estimate and final quote, surely there should be some expectation that the two are close?

If the final quote turns out to be significantly higher than the estimate, then the poor punter will be paying £250 if he cancels which would be rather unfair...

You would hope so, but it's not guaranteed.

Presumably the purpose of the desk survey system is to make cost estimates which are more accurate and fairer than the coarse banding before - especially for people where most of the fibre work has already been done, e.g. by a nearby FTTPoD install. Under the old system they would still be paying full whack based on the distance to the fibre aggregation node.

I guess the £245 covers the cost of detailed planning, sending people out to physically audit the proposed path, poking rods through ducts etc, to check if the expected delivery path will work.

Hopefully either OR or the service providers themselves will keep track of what proportion of orders end up sticking within the initial estimate. We'll just have to wait and see.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Speaking personally: I'm 500m radially from my VDSL cabinet, about 800m copper length, which means I get about 35M down / 5M up on VDSL; I guessed I would be in band C or D. However, I am actually in band G. That makes it clear that the aggregation node is not the cabinet.

Thank you for bringing in the new information.

I guess the information we all seek is the position of the aggregation nodes. Is there any way this info can come out? Because at the moment it would be like ordering FTTC and not knowing where the cabinet is.

@baby_frogmella

Also you�re mistaken if you think the new pricing structure = cheaper ownership of FTTPoD. The overall costs are expected to remain the same (for lone installs at least) which means higher install costs in order to compensate for the lower monthly costs and shorter min term.

Yes I can agree with that, especially if the sales focus remains selling to business customers so they would take the full burden of the reduced contract, so in that sense its status quo.

It will be interesting what happens when BT Business release their own business focused FOD packages.

In reply to a post by bowdon:

I guess the information we all seek is the position of the aggregation nodes. Is there any way this info can come out?

I did ask the FluidOne guy, and he said that the system didn't give out the location of the aggregation node - only which band I was in.

When I get my free estimate I'll post whether it includes any information like that, or if it's just a monetary figure.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

FYI, I spoke to FluidOne a few weeks ago and learned some things which may be relevant here.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I suggest they simply made an educated guess on the distance based on the BT Wholesale FTTC estimates for the property and assumed some rule of thumb additional distance.

No. The property banding came from him entering my phone number/postcode into an OpenReach or BTW system; it's not estimated by the service provider, and it's not related to FTTC.

He said that under the old (banded) model, the instant price quote was generally the price the customer ended up paying. He knew of only one case where Excess Construction Charges (ECC) had been levied, and that was on a Band G property - 1500m to 2000m radially from the nearest aggregation node.

That makes sense. Access to an OR system is normal. But given that a pure postcode can be several hundred metres long, mine is, that option could have been suspect.

Under the new model, there's no instant quote at all. You can get a free non-binding estimate, which is a "desk survey" made by someone looking at OR looking at a GIS map, and this is supposed to take 2 weeks.

Like this example? Maybe the ISPs could give a ballpark figure from that themselves. Assuming aggregation points are shown.

Thank you for bringing in the new information.

(ahem) Not new at all

oops.. I missed that post!

Any chance of sneaking a peek at the node map?

In reply to a post by bowdon:

Any chance of sneaking a peek at the node map?

As it has been stated many times before, the location map of aggregation nodes is not available to the general public.

Edited by deleted (Mon 19-Feb-18 15:55:21)

Hey Guys - Just been off a call from Cerberus:

The have informed me a build charge of £14,800, based on the new pricing,
they have also stated that my build would pass 9 other properties, if we can all order together they could look at charging each property £1,800,

However the way the desktop survey is done it dosent follow a logical path to our address, still waiting for confirmation of which properties are grouped together in this survey, the guy's at Cerberus stated it could be few properties on the side and front of my property that could potently be grouped together,

of course if all the neighbors can agree on this build i would gladly pay £1,800 but i find it baffling they want to charge so much,

Distance to the cabinet from my property is less than 100 meters, the aggregation node is only a few feet away from there - seems the build charge is taking a huge upfront cost

Did they specify exactly where the aggregation node was ?

I am still waiting for their full details to come through, not sure if my calculations will make any difference to their desktop survey,

Cerberus have also stated anyone that has made a request should start receiving their desktop plans from next week - based on the new pricing,

To be honest i was much hoping for this to be a lot cheaper

In reply to a post by asrab:

To be honest i was much hoping for this to be a lot cheaper

Sounds like your aggregation node is significantly more than 100m away.

You may have enough time to get a quote and place a order with FluidOne under the old pricing structure as their new pricing kicks in after 23/2. The same costs may be spread over 36 months which makes it less eye watering.

I doubt this would work as Openreach stopped offering the old product on 1 Feb.

Who told you the agg node is a few feet from your cabinet?

Yep, considerably. My thoughts also.

In reply to a post by Bill100:

I doubt this would work as Openreach stopped offering the old product on 1 Feb.

According to this post
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4583797-re-...
FluidOne are accepting orders under the old pricing until 23rd Feb. That may only apply to those who had quotes generated before 1st Feb but there�s no harm in asrab ringing up F1 and getting clarification on this.

Hey Guys - i asked one of the Open reach engineers while they working on the fiber cabinet a while back,
Naturally i wanted to know what was going on,

Thanks for your advice,

I have already contacted Fluideone - hopefully they would get back soon

There is a more than fair chance that they didn�t know the actual answer.

In reply to a post by asrab:

Hey Guys - Just been off a call from Cerberus:

The have informed me a build charge of £14,800, based on the new pricing

Ouch! Is that plus VAT?

Does your desk survey give you the distance to the fibre aggregation node?

Also, did you ever find out on the old pricing model what band you were in? That also gives you a rough indication of the line-of-sight distance to the aggregation node.

(In case you hadn't picked it up already: the fibre aggregation node is generally *not* your FTTC cabinet. More likely, it's an upstream chamber which several FTTC cabinets are fed from)

Did you ever get the detail info you were expecting? Did it explain why the estimate was so high?