Master socket in a bad place - need to extend

Hi

I live in a rented property so can't hack holes in walls etc, and also it would be very difficult to move the BT master socket to where I need it in the front room.

The connection is 60mbps FTTC

Question: - Can I used a simple telephone line cord extension to get the router into my lounge where I need it or will this have a detrimental effect on speed? I can tack this thin type cable around the skirting. Distance of cable probably 10-20m

Thanks

In reply to a post by bigyinuk:

I live in a rented property so can't hack holes in walls etc, and also it would be very difficult to move the BT master socket to where I need it in the front room.

The connection is 60mbps FTTC

Question: - Can I used a simple telephone line cord extension to get the router into my lounge where I need it or will this have a detrimental effect on speed? I can tack this thin type cable around the skirting. Distance of cable probably 10-20m

Yes: a modern master socket (with integrated splitter) has a separate punch-down point for extension of the router only. Run it over a regular phone wire (twisted pair) to the router/modem; crimp on an RJ11 plug or get a small RJ11 socket.

That provides both broadband and phone on the extension. A filtered extension only provides phone.

If no landline phone socket is required in the lounge it will be fine, but if one is needed then the phone will need to be on a filter. If the phone (assuming there is one at all) is provided by a DECT base station at the master socket that is also fine so long as it is on a filter or filtered socket.

Hmm... I was sure that the 5C faceplate with integrated microfilter had a punchdown point inside the faceplate, specifically for a router extension. But I could be wrong.

Of course, if you want a phone point in the living room (as well as router) then you should run a normal extension, from the extension point inside the main part of the master socket, and use a microfilter at the extension.

Of course, if you want a phone point in the living room (as well as router) then you should run a normal extension, from the extension point inside the main part of the master socket, and use a microfilter at the extension.

Which will produce a bridge tap, injecting errors and eventually causing loss of speed.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Hmm... I was sure that the 5C faceplate with integrated microfilter had a punchdown point inside the faceplate, specifically for a router extension. But I could be wrong.

It does image of it >> here << you can see it has those new IDC connections when you push the wires through and then clamp it down.
There are connections for the line coming in, phone line for extensions as well as a data extension.

Hope that helps.

Paul

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Of course, if you want a phone point in the living room (as well as router) then you should run a normal extension, from the extension point inside the main part of the master socket, and use a microfilter at the extension.

You have that precisely and completely the wrong way round.

The modem (within the router), always does and always has received the full signal on the line. The filter system merely removes the broadband signal from the phone socket. Otherwise your eardrums would disintegrate rapidly!

On the Openreach filtered master faceplates of all generations, the ordinary extensions from Terminals 2, 5 and sometimes 3, are phone only. There is no broadband signal on them.

Edit: To clarify, on the old NTE5 with no filtered faceplate then yes, 2 and 5 carry both. But the filtered faceplates change that. It's the telephone that has to have the broadband signal removed, not the modem that needs the phone signal removed. The modem simply ignores the phone frequencies so doesn't care.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 20-May-19 20:32:23)

There�s an �A� and a �B� for a Remote Broadband Socket!
You can connect a socket dedicated to your broadband hub via a spare �A and B pin, effectively delivering a filtered broadband supply to wherever you need it. This is before it gets chance to pick up interference from other devices.

https://www.telecomgreen.co.uk/home-phone-repair/bt-...

In reply to a post by brookheather:

There�s an �A� and a �B� for a Remote Broadband Socket!
You can connect a socket dedicated to your broadband hub via a spare �A and B pin, effectively delivering a filtered broadband supply to wherever you need it. This is before it gets chance to pick up interference from other devices.

https://www.telecomgreen.co.uk/home-phone-repair/bt-...

Wrong. It is unfiltered. The modem doesn't need a filtered supply. Only phones do.

Whatever that chap says!

There's no phone on the line. I was thinking of using a plug to socket extension that you can buy in the £ stores etc. Just plugging one end in the socket, run it round the room and connecting the router to the other end via the microfilter.

That solves the filter problem then. You wouldn't need one at all unless you have a bog standard NTE5A when a dangly filter for the plug-conversion is advisable. Or add a filtered faceplate yourself which is quite cheap and dead simple.

However the sort of very cheap extension cable you suggest is unlikely to be proper phone-spec cable, (CW1308), which is the minimum you should be looking for. You would need to get that from a reputable supplier. Otherwise you could get quite a noticeable speed loss. (I believe many cheap cables are labelled as CW1308 but are not).

The best wiring would be CAT5 or CAT6, but it would be a bit more noticeable.

You haven't said why you need the router in the lounge. If you tell us, you might get some other suggestions that would be better technically .

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 21-May-19 00:48:25)

In reply to a post by bigyinuk:

There's no phone on the line. I was thinking of using a plug to socket extension that you can buy in the £ stores etc. Just plugging one end in the socket, run it round the room and connecting the router to the other end via the microfilter.

A cheap telephone extension designed for making calls bought from the pound shop will undoubtedly have a detrimental impact on the sync speed.

My line is around 1020 meters long. I sync at 45Mb.
Using the cheap extension wiring pre installed by the builders in my new property knocks about 20Mb off my sync. The extension wiring is only about 10m in length.
When I changed this cheap extension wiring with genuine CW1308 (donated by a friendly OpenReach engineer) it only lowered my sync by about 0.2Mb.

So:
1020m CW1308 = 45Mb sync
1020m CW1308 + 10m cheap extension cable = 25Mb sync
1020m CW1308 + 10m my own CW1308 = 44.8Mb sync

Cheap telephone extension wiring from Poundland will either be untwisted, stranded or not copper (or all 3).
I'd be surprised if it didn't considerably lower your sync speed.
You want good quality copper, solid core, twisted pair.

Either match the incoming OpenReach line and use a 0.5mm solid core twisted pair (CW1308) or use a decent Cat5e cable.

Edited by j0hn83 (Tue 21-May-19 01:39:45)

Presumably for wifi coverage or ethernet sockets for a TV, console etc. I would try very hard to have my VDSL to ethernet conversion as close as physically possible to the master socket. Then again I am a fan of separate modem, router and WiFi. Note you can get two pair Cat5e which is thinner than standard Cat5e so less obtrusive and can still run 100Mbps so more than enough for connecting a VDSL modem to a router.

Even though it's rented, the landlord might be amenable to sorting out a more permanent solution. It's not like good broadband and working WiFi are going to be less of a requirement in the future.

Presuming something, particular a list of possibilities which itself ends in an "etc.", which although you might find it surprising I too am capable of doing, is not a good or efficient way to devise solutions to a specific requirement in a specific location.

Some questions when asked can only be answered by the person to whom they are addressed.

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 21-May-19 19:57:04)

What is actually wrong, does the WiFi not reach where you need it?

WiFi is fine for general purpose browsing but I'm running an IPTV app on an Android box and its more reliable with a wired connection. Ideally I'd like to get the router into the lounge somewhere near the TV.

Thanks everyone for the advice. Looks like the best way will be to either get some proper CW1308 and extend the socket into the lounge to get the router where I want it or run some Cat5e/6, although the path any cable will have to take will be tricky as there are two door frames in the way and the flooring is wood laminate. I prefer the CW1308 route as that'll put the router with its 4 port switch where I need it.

Thanks again for the advice.

Edited by deleted (Tue 21-May-19 23:31:57)

Tried splitting bands and only using 5ghz? Generally if the signal is strong it should work just fine... 2.4 is another matter.

The supplied router seems to be only 2.4Ghz sadly

Edited by deleted (Wed 22-May-19 09:54:39)

Which ISP? All mainstream providers offer 5GHz devices now, are you able to request a newer device via the ISP?

For your use case 2.4 is no good. The problem with running CW1308 is you introduce a bridge tap, which is ok if you don�t mind losing some speed overtime. Ideally the modem stays at the master, and you run Ethernet from it. You can put a switch at the end in the living room as required.

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

The problem with running CW1308 is you introduce a bridge tap ....

Pardon?

You seem to have a rather wide definition of �bridge tap� there. A bridge tap is an unterminated connection, which this won�t be. Though as Zarjaz pointed out, one of the earlier suggestions which I had already said simply wouldn't work anyway did create one

Yes it adds its length to the overall distance from the DSLAM, but that is peanuts. It also allows a short further length at risk of picking up external noise.

If it added a bridge tap Openreach would not be providing the A/B extension connectors in any versions of their filtered faceplates.

OK, time for me to have a closer look at the router. May just be that 5Ghz is turned off in the config although they did say they'd set it up properly when they did the install.

Its a Technicolor router BTW, not sure which model - will have to go look and the ISP is Shell.

I think I misinterpreted, I thought we were proposing a full lift and shift of master and a socket in the hall. Felt wrong for various reasons... Apologies.

In reply to a post by bigyinuk:

OK, time for me to have a closer look at the router. May just be that 5Ghz is turned off in the config although they did say they'd set it up properly when they did the install.

Its a Technicolor router BTW, not sure which model - will have to go look and the ISP is Shell.

OK, shell provide a basic router single band. BT, TalkTalk, Virginmedia, Sky, PlusNet, EE and Vodafone are all dual band models. Adding the extra cabling should be fine, provided the master is not relocated and the correct terminals used.

I thought yours was a strange post, but also think perhaps my response was a little over-strong in the heat of the moment.

My main concern was that the OP could have become very confused by several confirmations that "at least" CW1308 was needed and your contradiction of that. I replied in haste, so I apologise for my tone.

It's probably the first time ever I've disagreed with one of your posts, and several of those have been correctly pointing out mistakes by myself .

Just to confirm that indeed the Technicolor is only a 2.4Ghz router but the band is not crowded with AP's and I've moved the channel up to 13 where there's nothing at all near it.

Looking at how I'd have to run any cable, I really think that putting an extension on and running a cable round to another BT socket would be the easiest path. The socket currently fitted is what I'd call a plain old-style BT socket (not an NTE-5) with no micro-filter or pull out panel.

At the risk of getting told off by forum users, why can't I just add on my cable (I have a box full of IDC connectors a BT engineer gave me) and move the master socket round to where I want it? - And yes, I know you're not supposed to fiddle with BT's wiring.

Edited by deleted (Wed 22-May-19 17:33:18)

Have a read, https://www.metageek.com/training/resources/why-chan...
Using C13 you have introduced adjacent-channel interference: https://www.metageek.com/training/resources/adjacent...

I am on mobile so will let someone else take up discussion re moving the master in detail. If you use jelly crimps and the correct speck cabling, it should be ok. It is however a breach of openreach t&c, if you do not follow every single openreach procedure to the letter, to the extent they are unable to tell you have touched it, you run a high risk of getting a bill when they come in future and bring it up-to spec e.g. in the event of a fault. Take pics of what you have, so we can see if it's doable if you want.

Have you considered getting a dual-band router? It would benefit all devices, although of course there is associated expense.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Wed 22-May-19 19:51:22)

There's also the option of a modem at the master + ethernet to a router in the lounge. But cost questions obviously arise, as you know, but it is probably the best solution of all.

Agreed, I personally dislike using internal wiring. I�d much rather a drop wire straight from the external property, through the external wall into the back of the NTE. Everything else internal is over Ethernet... I�ve seen a case of cw1308 wiring behind kitchen units to the master, whenever the washing machine dryer was on the dropouts started. Likely a faulty machine, but this sort of �risk� is increased with internal wiring.

Whoa!!!!

All he really wants is an ethernet feed to the TV. That just needs a run of ethernet CAT5 or CAT6 cable from the router, preferably with an ethernet wall or skirting-board ethernet socket and a patch cable for neatness. If the layout is suitable it could simply be on the floor behind the TV.

For IPTV use why not just use a pair of Powerline extenders? IPTV is not a very demanding application.

IPTV will buffer well so really doesn't really care about short interruptions or latency and 5Mbps will support an HD stream. I'm guessing Powerline will work just fine. And it doesn't need to be AV2 which would stay away from VDSL frequencies.

And no cables to run, and really simple.

The other solutions that have been offered are more elegant of course, but from an ease standpoint, I'd go Powerline - or am I missing something?