FTTP system help please

We have what I think is an odd situation here in West Sussex. The County Council tell me they have funded a small fibre run along a road in a very poor broadband area which feeds a few houses. It appears to be FTTrN, since it runs along poles and there are drops at some properties. It seems to be difficult to establish where the feed node is or how the line interacts with a new OR 'pole' run from the same road junction, but along a different road.

The 'last' active pole finishes a few hundred yards from where a friend is trying to get a quote for a group of 18 properties - his, and the rest further along the road.

What is the mechanism involved in this run? Is it simply a case of extending the run along the road from the last pole or is there likely to be some limitation on the number of available fibres?

What is the policy on these County funded runs? Is there any requirement for the (publicly funded) run to be 'extendable'?

I suggest that you find out who installed the county council funded fibre run you mentioned. Are you sure that it is not FTTP?

If Openreach did the installation, then your friend could then get a quote from Openreach which might make use of any spare fibres. You could ask the council council if they would make a contribution towards the cost of providing connections to your friend and his neighbours.

How do we know if it is FTTP? What defines it as such? It has appeared as 'available' to properties it passes with no connection charge.

In reply to a post by mikejp:

How do we know if it is FTTP? What defines it as such? It has appeared as 'available' to properties it passes with no connection charge.

You could ask the council, one of the connected houses or maybe take pictures of how the drop wires are connected at the telegraph pole end. There are people on this website who know what the Openreach FTTP equipment looks like.

FTTP signals go back to equipment in an exchange. FTTrN is very rare, the requirement for nodes to be powered was a disadvantage.

Well it won�t be fibre to the remote node, as you suggested .... Openreach do not provide that as a product.

Some pictures of the plan as is might help with its identification.

Problem is, Michael, the council are not being very forthcoming. Any of the properties 'passed' by the fibre on the poles could visit https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/community-... and be sent to 'choose provider' and when BT is selected they receive an offer of 'Ultrafast Fibre 2Plus' for £59.99 a month.

So, anyone explain please what is going on here? Is this 'FTTP' and why does it stop after a km or so? This is an area where 3mbps is currently a good speed.

All very confusing. Getting a picture of the drop is not easy for me since I am some distance away.. I will ask my friend. I have a scxreenshot of the BT 'offers'.

What does this link show for one of the addresses with the new drop wires? Does it show that FTTP is available?

FTTP is expensive to install which is quite possibly why only a few properties were connected.

WBC FTTP Up to 1000 Up to 220 -- Available 1 Stage

In reply to a post by mikejp:

WBC FTTP Up to 1000 Up to 220 -- Available 1 Stage

That's what it says for my address and we have fibre on the pole, the 1 stage means they only have to take fibre from the pole to building.

So it is FTTP. I suggest that your friend enquires about the Openreach Community Fibre Scheme as described here

He did, 6 weeks ago (as you can see)...., but has heard nothing yet. My question was, as per my OP,

"The 'last' active pole finishes a few hundred yards from where a friend is trying to get a quote for a group of 18 properties - his, and the rest further along the road.

What is the mechanism involved in this run? Is it simply a case of extending the run along the road from the last pole or is there likely to be some limitation on the number of available fibres?

What is the policy on these County funded runs? Is there any requirement for the (publicly funded) run to be 'extendable'? "

Does anyone know what this 'fibre on poles' is all about?

[cynic mode]
Does a councillor live in any of those already connected?
[cynic mode]

It had crossed my equally cynical mind.............

The Openreach version of FTTP uses G-pon, this is a passive fibre infrastructure. Basically up to 32 users share a total bandwidth of 2.5gbits down and 1.25gbits up. Thus it is a contended service, Gpon, also uses splitters and encryption to separate each user's data.

If all of the nodes used up, you can't just extend the fibre, a new splitter has to be added, with up to 18 premises you are looking at, that would be the case.

Note that i've left some bits out which i'm sure others will add in.

Thanks for replies, Taras - probably only about 10 properties passed as far as I can see, so a bit in hand.

Interested in the 'mechanics' of this - what sort of cabling starts at the node? How many fibres normally in the bundle? Do your '32' users just use 1 fibre? Does the 'splitter' spawn more fibres - eg 18? Is it fibre to the property or copper ethernet?

If the 'Council' put this distribution in, do they have any say in what happens to it or does it become OR 'property' to market?

Lastly is there any source that covers all my simple questions simply?

As a County Councillor, if this was within my County (Flintshire) and therefore a part contributor to this scheme, I would be looking as to who lived there etc. I would not be happy to find that another Councillor did.

(Within the first couple of weeks of being first elected, I complained to the Council when the first length of road surfacing they carried out was outside our property. It had apparently been scheduled for some time, but certainly gave other council tax payers some ammo!

Cheers!

In reply to a post by mikejp:

Thanks for replies, Taras - probably only about 10 properties passed as far as I can see, so a bit in hand.

Interested in the 'mechanics' of this - what sort of cabling starts at the node? How many fibres normally in the bundle? Do your '32' users just use 1 fibre? Does the 'splitter' spawn more fibres - eg 18? Is it fibre to the property or copper ethernet?

If the 'Council' put this distribution in, do they have any say in what happens to it or does it become OR 'property' to market?

Lastly is there any source that covers all my simple questions simply?

Fttp is fibre to the property. What you are suggesting can't be done. A new deployment from the aggregative node would have to be more than likely (basically more fibre).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-6LKAPlEyk <---basically how the fibre gets to the house.

A very useful video, Taras, thank you. That looks neat.

"What you are suggesting can't be done. A new deployment from the aggregative node would have to be more than likely (basically more fibre) " - not quite sure what I was 'suggesting'? I was asking about the nature of the fibre to the pole itself - is it a single fibre that is then split or are there normally more fibres in the bundle? In other words if more than 32 want the service, does a new fibre need to be started at the node or will there be capacity in the original run to use an unlit fibre?

Lastly, "If the 'Council' put this distribution in, do they have any say in what happens to it or does it become OR 'property' to market? ie how does a County deployment (using public money) of fibre fit into the overall network - will it always be taken over by OR or can another provider use it?

My understanding is each fibre is split at the splitter 32 ways for 32 FTTP connections if 33 connections are required an additional fibre and splitter is used.

There are lots of factors you need to understand, like where the ag node is, where the splitter is, how many fibres have been run between the various points in the FTTP infrastructure to determine how much extra work would be required to expand it.

Infrastructure installed by Openreach is the property of Openreach regardless of who funds the work.

I didn't know if another fibre strand is used or if additional strands are blown, hence why i hadn't replied.

So there will often be a �bundle� of fibres to the splitter. Dependant on what sort of physical splitter it is, the assembly can take 1, 2 or 4 splitters.

So say there�s a four splitter version, three are in use, to enable the fourth a single fibre would need to be spliced through the network to the agg node, then on to the head end in the exchange.

This is all ifs and buts for the OP though.

In reply to a post by Taras:

The Openreach version of FTTP uses G-pon, this is a passive fibre infrastructure. Basically up to 32 users share a total bandwidth of 2.5gbits down and 1.25gbits up. Thus it is a contended service, Gpon, also uses splitters and encryption to separate each user's data.

You can have more that 32 users sharing the bandwidth from a single fibre in GPON. The limit in the standard is 128 per fibre, though few providers would go for a spit ration that high, and line length impacts how many spits you can have. If it where me I would keep it at 9 or less spits so I can come back in the fullnes of time and change to CWDM-PON for up to 25Gbps symmetric on all connections.

Yes, but I was asking how many fibres are likely to be in the 'bundle' - if there was some sort of 'norm'? It would seem to be a huge waste of money to run a single fibre from the node along the poles so I would hope/assume there are more - but how many!

Still hoping someone can answer
"What is the mechanism involved in this run? Is it simply a case of extending the run along the road from the last pole or is there likely to be some limitation on the number of available fibres? ie IF there is at least one more unlit fibre can the run be extended?

AND
What is the policy on these County funded runs? Is there any requirement for the (publicly funded) run to be 'extendable'? "

Does anyone know what this 'fibre on poles' is all about? "

The last question is whether the pole dancing is the new way to 'do' Boris's promise - where poles exist, of course.- rather than by ducting.

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

In reply to a post by Taras:

The Openreach version of FTTP uses G-pon, this is a passive fibre infrastructure. Basically up to 32 users share a total bandwidth of 2.5gbits down and 1.25gbits up. Thus it is a contended service, Gpon, also uses splitters and encryption to separate each user's data.

You can have more that 32 users sharing the bandwidth from a single fibre in GPON. The limit in the standard is 128 per fibre, though few providers would go for a spit ration that high, and line length impacts how many spits you can have. If it where me I would keep it at 9 or less spits so I can come back in the fullnes of time and change to CWDM-PON for up to 25Gbps symmetric on all connections.

Well OR is using 32 streams max and the next tier up is xg-pon. Just remember internet traffic, (well ip traffic) is bursty in nature. Even with a 80/20 line, you won't always be using 80/20 speeds.

In reply to a post by mikejp:

Yes, but I was asking how many fibres are likely to be in the 'bundle' - if there was some sort of 'norm'? It would seem to be a huge waste of money to run a single fibre from the node along the poles so I would hope/assume there are more - but how many!

Still hoping someone can answer
"What is the mechanism involved in this run? Is it simply a case of extending the run along the road from the last pole or is there likely to be some limitation on the number of available fibres? ie IF there is at least one more unlit fibre can the run be extended?

It will likely be a new deployment given that its around 18 houses, with a new fibre cable (with multiple strands) to a (new) primary splitter. Given that there's existing fibre, the lead time should in theory be shorter.

In reply to a post by mikejp:

AND
What is the policy on these County funded runs? Is there any requirement for the (publicly funded) run to be 'extendable'? "

Aka BDUK, many councils have gone to 3 or 4 phases due to clawback and extra money.

In reply to a post by mikejp:

Does anyone know what this 'fibre on poles' is all about? "

The current OR copper service is either delivered via underground ducts to the house, or a combination of underground ducts and the last few metres via overhead cables.

The new connectorised fttp installs use the same route as your existing copper route with the final cabling being a hybrid coper/fibre cable.

In reply to a post by mikejp:

The last question is whether the pole dancing is the new way to 'do' Boris's promise - where poles exist, of course.- rather than by ducting.

No.

On ending when others are further away - its a case of massively depends on the distances involved and contract aims

Doing 100% of one exchange will draw criticism from other exchange areas where no work has been done, so spreading what might be a contract of 3,000 premises across a county is not uncommon.

Most common reason is the value for money testing, and going that bit further down the road might mean the value for money criteria are breached, so roll-out stops at the point where they can deliver within bounds of contract.

Generally the FTTP planning does take into account that others would need to be reached, so capacity will exist, but no-one has paid for this spare capacity (well Openreach has but in accounting terms they will look to recover this eventually) so council in a later contract might extend further and even if just a short distance and is re-using some bits that are already installed there will be a share of that original build to pay.

Thanks Taras and Mr S. This 'value for money' is the crippler. A quick Google produces reams of documents none of which appear to tell me how this is judged! I would have thought that a longish road where no-one has more than 3mbps and not a cab in sight would qualify!

It would appear to me that FTTrN is the obvious way to go. Someone raised a 'concern' about 'power', but with the option of reverse powering or using the 48v on the line I cannot see the issue. This https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2014/09/diagra... gives an excellent SIMPLE coverage of the system.

In reply to a post by mikejp:

It would appear to me that FTTrN is the obvious way to go.

The only benefit of FTTrN is that you don't need to enter the house again to install the final fibre drop and ONT.

Apart from that, everything is a disadvantage compared to FTTP. With FTTrN you still need to bring the fibre to the place where a splitter or CBT would have been. You need to buy and power and service the electronics. You are dependent on the quality of the existing copper or aluminium drop cable. You are limited to G.fast-like speeds rather than gigabit speeds.

So it's more expensive to install and maintain than FTTP, whilst not giving the future-proofing benefits.

On value for money - simplest version if it needs more than £1,700 of gap funding (council/Gov money) under a BDUK contract it won't get done. This criteria exists to stop all the money being spent on a small number of hardest to reach areas.

Those who do miss out can look at things like Gigabit Voucher Scheme https://gigabitvoucher.culture.gov.uk as a way of part funding the roll-out of FTTP if they don't want to wait until 2025

G.fast can reach 500mbits plus. That said in some rural areas from house to dp can be up to 200m to 300m, which then makes g.fast pointless.

In reply to a post by mikejp:

It would appear to me that FTTrN is the obvious way to go.

Openreach do not deploy FTTrN, it may have been considered several years ago but never deployed other than maybe a trial.

In reply to a post by mikejp:

What is the policy on these County funded runs? Is there any requirement for the (publicly funded) run to be 'extendable'? "

I have been lucky enough to have seen a BDUK (local county funded) tender document and other than specifying the target properties it says nothing about the type of delivery solution (although recent phases have tended to be solely FTTP). There is nothing in the document about making the solution extendable as there is nothing to say it must be FTTP.

That disagrees with the link

In reply to a post by mikejp:

That disagrees with the link

That link was from 1st Sept 2014, more that 5 years ago and a lot has changed.

Edit: There are over 4.3 million Openreach DP's in the UK, if they were to ever consider deploying FTTPrN that's the type of number of remote DSLAMS they would need to install, compare that with only 85,000 PCP's you can see why they only took the fibre to the PCP for VDSL (aka FTTC) and thats not even considering the extra issues including providing power for FTTPrN.

Edited by deleted (Fri 20-Sep-19 16:54:27)

Post deleted by candlerb

FTTrn as most people are talking about is dead, but some VDSL2 cabinets (and some may be the small 16 line units based on premises covered) are now covering less than 50 premises.

The equation as to whether to do FTTP or VDSL2 depends massively on the cost of the power and how dispersed properties are.

NOTE: The VDSL2 seen going live today has probably being planned for 12 to 24 months.

BDUK as in DCMS will not sign off on any new contracts unless it is full fibre.

DCMS does not sign off on new BDUK contracts now unless full fibre. So while what you say was the case for older tender and contracts is not the case for stuff signed very recently.

I did mention exactly this as one of the first replies.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

I did mention exactly this as one of the first replies.

I know you did Zarjaz but sometimes people need to keep being reminded

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

FTTrn as most people are talking about is dead,

Totally agree that's the exact point I have been making to the OP

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

DCMS does not sign off on new BDUK contracts now unless full fibre. So while what you say was the case for older tender and contracts is not the case for stuff signed very recently.

Not disagreeing about full fibre although the tender document I saw from last year didn't specifically state full fibre although what was in the final contract I have no idea.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by mikejp:

It would appear to me that FTTrN is the obvious way to go.

The only benefit of FTTrN is that you don't need to enter the house again to install the final fibre drop and ONT.

Apart from that, everything is a disadvantage compared to FTTP. With FTTrN you still need to bring the fibre to the place where a splitter or CBT would have been. You need to buy and power and service the electronics. You are dependent on the quality of the existing copper or aluminium drop cable. You are limited to G.fast-like speeds rather than gigabit speeds.

So it's more expensive to install and maintain than FTTP, whilst not giving the future-proofing benefits.

Some years back we had a local meeting with BDUK, BT, Openreach teams, at that time FTTrN was thought to be the way to go, that and a slow roll out of fibre, but it seems as the reality of what you are talking about hit home and they have changed to a more rapid roll out of FTTP.

3 of us did in some way or another. The Op should be concentrating on the community project rather than how fttp will be delivered. Also just because theres "fibre a few hundred metres away" doesn't mean it will be even coming from the same route.

Yep ... +1

In reply to a post by Taras:

3 of us did in some way or another. The Op should be concentrating on the community project rather than how fttp will be delivered. Also just because theres "fibre a few hundred metres away" doesn't mean it will be even coming from the same route.

Spot on