Internal Cabling for FTTP

Strange one, hopefuly someone will help.

When FTTC came to the area, I had my flat cat5 cabled up, and this included a run from where the master socket was placed by the builders right by the front door (why do they do this?!) to an internal cupboard that OpenReach then used to move the master socket The cable route was a nightmare going behind dab-dot, through a floor to get to the cupboard - I don't know the full route but it wouldn't be nice.

The BT broadband checker is reporting KCI2 Assure for FTTP which might be an early xmas present, but I'd want the ONT to be fitted in the same cupboard which opens up issues with the install.

Any ideas how I could go about easing this when it come to is (as I would imagine that this install would be a nightmare for an engineer to do)?

They have some new internal fibre that is extremely thin, and is glued onto the top of the skirting, it can then be painted over ..... very unobtrusive.

Or

Have the ONT in the hall (is there power ?) and use the existing cat5 to provide a link between there and the cupboard, and have the router there.

Thanks Zarjaz

The flat is a coachhouse, which I describe as an upstairs bungalow. The hallway downstairs (which does have power) is only 3ft wide so anything on the wall is likely to get bashed around.

It's a bit of a shame nobodys(?) done a thin "straw" tube that could be used to feed through walls etc to pre-route the fibre.

As for the new thin fibre, what's the bend radius like?

You must remember that FTTP is still a �new� concept for most builders, so there�s no thought for such things in the build of many/most properties.

I�ve not physically had my hands on any yet, only read about it .... but have seen a similar product used in flats, and it seemed to be following the up and over door frames route OK.

The usual generalisation is that the radius should be no tighter than a ten pence piece .....

I went to a company in Basingstoke who had fibre that could be literally knitted with no loss ..... their or the products name, I don�t recall right now.

How "internal" is the cupboard? Is there any route that would be reasonable to get to it?

Failing that, could the ONT be put somewhere where there is a CAT5 end point and then connect it back to the router in the cupboard via that CAT5?

In reply to a post by SiPurdy:

Strange one, hopefuly someone will help.

I had my flat cat5 cabled up, and this included a run from where the master socket was placed by the builders right by the front door (why do they do this?!) to an internal cupboard that OpenReach then used to move the master socket The cable route was a nightmare going behind dab-dot, through a floor to get to the cupboard - I don't know the full route but it wouldn't be nice.

Just a thought, If you want the install of the fibre cable to be perfect have you considered getting the same guys back who run the original cat5 cable to run the internal fibre cable? you may be able to get an internal fibre cable kit ((various lengths available) from Openreach and get your guys to run it then the Openreach guys can use a CSP to connect/splice it to the external fibre cable.

Why not mount it high up close to the ceiling and drop a single Cat5e down to floor level.

the black cable that comes from the pole has a smaller white cable inside. the or guys can remove the black to expose the white that is not only thinner 3mm as opposed to 5mm but is less intrusive in a domestic environment

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

I went to a company in Basingstoke who had fibre that could be literally knitted with no loss ..... their or the products name, I don�t recall right now.

I remember Corning having a fibre that could do that, press anouncement a few years back.

Thanks for the guidance, I'll see if I can find anything on the internal fibre kits but an initial google didn't show promise.

Unlikely that Openreach will adopt and splice onto consumer supplied fibre, what would be better would be to install some sub duct ready and have a draw rope ready in it.

You can get single mode fibre (aka the stuff that is used for FTTP) that has a bend radius of 10mm aka 1cm. Here is some simple single mode APC to APC cable with such a bend radius.

https://www.fs.com/uk/products/41923.html

The postage is going to be more than the cable costs There is no need to get anyone in to splice any cable a simple APC SC/SC coupler for a few quid is all you need.

https://www.fs.com/uk/products/76115.htmlth

I can't see a listing on fs.com for a single one but give 10 of them are under £5 hardly a large financial loss if the remaining 9 go in the bin.

I am assuming that Openreach are using angled physical SC connectors (APC) rather than the normal "flat" ones (UPC). All the photos I have seen show green connectors rather than blue which would be standard for APC however some of the Openreach documentation suggest they use UPC connectors but I think that is a mistake. Normally APC connectors are used in FTTP installations due to the lower optical loss.

In reply to a post by MHC:

Why not mount it high up close to the ceiling and drop a single Cat5e down to floor level.

Note that you'd also have to drop a DC power cable down to a wall wart PSU.

My NTE is installed inside an outer case intended to hold a BBU (which I don't have), as per the picture here.

This outer case is still very slim: 40mm deep. You would probably get away with it even in the narrow stairwell. The case gives it protection, and it includes space to curl up the fibre tail and DC lead neatly.

You may or may not get offered this as an option, as the latest NTEs apparently are even smaller and without the case: see here.

Otherwise: I don't know what the rules are for ladders these days, but could they bring the fibre externally up the wall and directly into your upstairs bungalow?

Or just pre-install some SC-SC APC simplex fibre and use a coupler to join it to the Openreach terminated fibre. That way if there are any issues you could temporarily move the ONT and plug it into the Openreach terminated fibre.

Really people seem to treat fibre as some sort of delicate black magic when it's not. Though I do accept that Openreach would unlikely to be happy splicing internal cable to theirs. A extra few metres of fibre are basically neither here nor there in the scheme of things.

Connecting two pieces via a female adaptor once they've done the install is a good idea, also makes any light issues if they happen easy to diagnose as can hook up to the Openreach supplied fibre with the ONT.

For many of us the mystique of fibre does not exist, but given how badly treated copper wiring has been seen to be treated can see fibre suffering e.g. just being left unplugged and connector open to air will get dust/moisture which may increase light loss.

Nah, that technique has been updated .... the stripping from the black to white is a HUGE PITA .... often adding a lot of time to tasks.

They are back to pre made kits run from the ONT back outside it�s thinner than the old Eeezee bend stuff too. Also negates the truly awful �field fit� connectors that were being used.

The new kits are run to a new style external CSP, and the connectorised cable from the CBT is terminated and spliced in there.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

The new kits are run to a new style external CSP, and the connectorised cable from the CBT is terminated and spliced in there.

Do you have any pics/sizes of new style external CSP

Not at present..... it�ll take a 2 to 5 pair UG feed too.

my install has the black cable from the CBT down the pole through sel installed duct across the garden up the house wall in conduit into the loft,across the loft and down in conduit to a hall cupboard. the black cable is stripped back to white only where it goes into the box containing the ONT (used to hold a BBU as well till it melted)

Edited by threelegs (Tue 03-Dec-19 14:41:48)

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Unlikely that Openreach will adopt and splice onto consumer supplied fibre

In my post I wasn't suggesting to the OP to supply their own fibre I actually said

In reply to a post by dect:

you may be able to get an internal fibre cable kit ((various lengths available) from Openreach

The BT Item code for a 20m white internal fibre cable use to be 061820

My install has black outer covering up to the inside of the wall, then stripped back to white for the loop into the ONT.

ONT Install Picture

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Not at present..... it�ll take a 2 to 5 pair UG feed too.

Sorry Zarjaz, while I'm on a roll with my questions could I ask one more

Do they still do an internal CSP?

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

I am assuming that Openreach are using angled physical SC connectors (APC) rather than the normal "flat" ones (UPC).

Yes, SC/APC connectors are used.

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

Or just pre-install some SC-SC APC simplex fibre and use a coupler to join it to the Openreach terminated fibre.

I believe that's technically not permitted: the demarcation point of the service is the RJ45 port on the NTE, anything before that is part of Openreach's service provision.

Of course, if you get a friendly engineer and feed them biscuits, they'll probably install it however you like. But if the service later fails, and an engineer visit is required, and they claim (rightly or wrongly) that the problem is due to an issue with your cable, in theory you could end up paying for the repair.

You would be much better off getting the OR engineer to run *their* fibre all the way. As has been mentioned before, the inner white fibre is very thin. It could easily be tacked to a skirting board, and is no more obtrusive than a traditional telephone cable.

Yes, they are the same as the original external ones.

Yep, as previously mentioned, stripping the black outer covering off of any reasonable length is a huge pain.

In coming years Openreach staff will nod sagely towards your install and be able to date right down to about a three year period ........ and maybe mutter that you �got your money�s worth.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Yes, they are the same as the original external ones.

Thanks, you're a true legend just like Mr Barson

Nah, he�s up there with the cherubim and seraphim ...

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Nah, he�s up there with the cherubim and seraphim ...

His a good lad, will stop and talk to anyone

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

You must remember that FTTP is still a �new� concept for most builders, so there�s no thought for such things in the build of many/most properties.

I�ve not physically had my hands on any yet, only read about it .... but have seen a similar product used in flats, and it seemed to be following the up and over door frames route OK.

The usual generalisation is that the radius should be no tighter than a ten pence piece .....

I went to a company in Basingstoke who had fibre that could be literally knitted with no loss ..... their or the products name, I don�t recall right now.

The standard external Corning external fibre (connectorised stuff) can be tied in knots and still works. Not sure they use Corning for internal stuff, but whatever it is (EZ Bend?) it can also be banged, tied in knots etc. More resilient than copper in some ways.

In reply to a post by SiPurdy:

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

I went to a company in Basingstoke who had fibre that could be literally knitted with no loss ..... their or the products name, I don�t recall right now.

I remember Corning having a fibre that could do that, press anouncement a few years back.

Well remembered. That�s what Openreach use now.

Edited by deleted (Tue 03-Dec-19 21:51:37)

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

You must remember that FTTP is still a �new� concept for most builders, so there�s no thought for such things in the build of many/most properties.

I�ve not physically had my hands on any yet, only read about it .... but have seen a similar product used in flats, and it seemed to be following the up and over door frames route OK.

The usual generalisation is that the radius should be no tighter than a ten pence piece .....

I went to a company in Basingstoke who had fibre that could be literally knitted with no loss ..... their or the products name, I don�t recall right now.

The standard external Corning external fibre (connectorised stuff) can be tied in knots and still works. Not sure they use Corning for internal stuff, but whatever it is (EZ Bend?) it can also be banged, tied in knots etc. More resilient than copper in some ways.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Of course, if you get a friendly engineer and feed them biscuits, they'll probably install it however you like. But if the service later fails, and an engineer visit is required, and they claim (rightly or wrongly) that the problem is due to an issue with your cable, in theory you could end up paying for the repair.

Except that if I had a fault I would temporarily move ONT back to where the coupler is and plug in direct into the Openreach SC fibre connector. This is no different than having to use the test socket on an NTE5 to eliminate extension wiring. Again there seems to be this bizarre view out there that fibre is some mystical black art that is as delicate as a snowflake. In my 15 years experience working with fibre optic cable it's a load of cobblers.

You would be much better off getting the OR engineer to run *their* fibre all the way. As has been mentioned before, the inner white fibre is very thin. It could easily be tacked to a skirting board, and is no more obtrusive than a traditional telephone cable.

Yeah there is no way on gods good earth that you would be tacking any cable or fibre on anything in my house for anything other than a temporary measure till it is hidden in walls or under floors.

Frankly the notion that constant cleaning of fibre optic cable ends is another of those myths in my experience. Only ever had to do it once in over 15 years, and that was because the cable came with those awful push on ferrule cables for an LC cable and it came of as they are apt to do when I was running it to the switch in the data centre. They are also super easy to loose. That said I do always put dust caps on when unplugging for any length of time.

So these are the devils work

https://alker.co.uk/v1/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/AK...

you want these instead, they positively clip on the end of an LC connector.

https://alker.co.uk/v1/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/AK...

The ferrule dust caps are more likely to stay on for SC connectors than LC, but still the devils work. You want these instead which in my experience don't accidentally come off.

https://alker.co.uk/v1/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/SC...

Never said anything about constant cleaning.

Thinking more of people doing things like unplugging things for a day or two while decorating and not fitting dust caps for that duration

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Of course, if you get a friendly engineer and feed them biscuits, they'll probably install it however you like. But if the service later fails, and an engineer visit is required, and they claim (rightly or wrongly) that the problem is due to an issue with your cable, in theory you could end up paying for the repair.

Except that if I had a fault I would temporarily move ONT back to where the coupler is and plug in direct into the Openreach SC fibre connector. This is no different than having to use the test socket on an NTE5 to eliminate extension wiring. Again there seems to be this bizarre view out there that fibre is some mystical black art that is as delicate as a snowflake. In my 15 years experience working with fibre optic cable it's a load of cobblers.

You would be much better off getting the OR engineer to run *their* fibre all the way. As has been mentioned before, the inner white fibre is very thin. It could easily be tacked to a skirting board, and is no more obtrusive than a traditional telephone cable.

Yeah there is no way on gods good earth that you would be tacking any cable or fibre on anything in my house for anything other than a temporary measure till it is hidden in walls or under floors.

Lucky you. In some houses and apartments there�s simply no choice. The cable must be tacked to a skirting board.

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

Yeah there is no way on gods good earth that you would be tacking any cable or fibre on anything in my house for anything other than a temporary measure till it is hidden in walls or under floors.

Thats kind of my sentiment, and luckily I have the choice (if I work out how).

I wonder if something like https://www.hilltop-products.co.uk/pvc-flexible-hose... would work (If I got the right diameter)? Hopefully the OR guy could just push/pull the fibre through.

What sort of distance are you talking about? how would you deal with any tight bends as the sides of the hose may pinch if bent too much?

Point to point is about 4 metres, I just don't know the route taken.

The guy cut a hole in the upstairs floor to feed the cat5 run through and that's the only bit of the route that I'm aware of.

In reply to a post by SiPurdy:

Point to point is about 4 metres, I just don't know the route taken.

The guy cut a hole in the upstairs floor to feed the cat5 run through and that's the only bit of the route that I'm aware of.

May be worth sticking your head in that hole and taking a look as the run may not be too bad if the floor joists run in the right direction.

6mm nylon pipe is what Virgin use on fibre installs. When they do the pavement work they run a length from the cabinet to each pavement box (Toby). When they to the house install they run a piece from the Toby in the pavement to the wall mount box, its joined in the Toby with a 6mm push fit coupling, then the fibre blown through. I'm not sure if OR could use 6mm tube as I don't know how the ends are terminated.

If you have a local commercial (truck) parts factors nearby you'll be able to get 6mm nylon air pipe from them possible cheaper, although we do use Hilltop Products for their heat shrink.

When I built our house extension I ran a piece of 15mm OD tube to my coms room, it was perfect for when we had Virgin installed.

Hi R0NSKI

A 6mm pipe sounds a bit tight in my opinion (e.g. for what its worth) as this is the internal fibre cabling (we are not talking about blowing fibre through a tube although I have seen comments saying its a lot thinner than it use to be).

Could anyone with experience of Openreach's current internal fibre cabling comment on what would be a safe size tube (OD / ID) to install please.

The stuff Virgin used had a plug on one end and was very thin, so blew though easily, but of course we're talking about OR here.

You can get a whole range of size in nylon pipe, but of course the bigger the pipe the harder to install.

https://www.advancedfluidsolutions.co.uk/16mm-od-x-1...

I've also used flexible conduit like this, again you can get many sizes. The only downside to this stuff is the ridges make it harder to pull things through, but the upside is tighter bends, which can be more difficult to get the cable round though.

Whichever style pipe is used you can use a vacuum cleaner to suck string through,, if it's a bigger pipe tie some cotton wool or kitchen towel to the string and it will suck through easier.

Edited by R0NSKI (Sun 08-Dec-19 08:44:03)