FTTP @ 300 now with 500/1000 soon?

Any ISP types reading this offering 300 over Openreach FTTP with the potential for higher rate products without the business price tag?

The choice is BT or BT right now. The big 3 OLOs aren't selling anything FTTP at all or have no timescales.

Am I missing something or is this about the case? BT or £140 a month for 1000/220, which will be using BT Wholesale nearly as far as BT Consumer do anyway?

Disappointing that the big three OLOs are so slow to this game. Yes, Openreach don't install to homes right now but there are a few ONTs out there.

Zen offer FTTP.

They also have no idea when they'll be offering >300 and provision it over BT Wholesale which isn't ideal.

Good question really.

I thought "other ISP's" may be offering the higher tiers by now.

BT Business should be selling 1000/220 (instead of 1000/115) very soon, but I'd be very surprised if they were charging £100s per month which the likes of Cerberus, Trunk Networks etc are doing. I'm expecting BTB to sell it around the £100/m mark, maybe cheaper. As tempting as it is to take out BT's 1000/115 service, for ~£50/m, I'm waiting for the 1000/220 service to be released by their Business sibling. That extra 100 Mbps in upload will be very welcome!

Edited by deleted (Fri 24-Apr-20 10:53:43)

In reply to a post by Highland76:

BT Business should be selling 1000/220 (instead of 1000/115) very soon, but I'd be very surprised if they were charging £100s per month which the likes of Cerberus, Trunk Networks etc are doing. I'm expecting BTB to sell it around the £100/m mark, maybe cheaper.

That may be optimistic. The published Openreach wholesale price for a 1000/220 FTTP tail is £80+VAT per month (plus £500+VAT setup). That does not include backhaul, transit, BRAS termination / IP addresses, CPE, customer support, billing, or profit margin for BT Business.

The 500/165 tier may be more interesting. It has the best upload ratio of all the products, and the Openreach cost is £55+VAT.

Still silly when you consider that 1000/115 has an Openreach cost of only £31.28.

Yeah but you're forgetting BT/BTB is the biggest ISP out there so economies of scale come into it. Being BT Wholesale's biggest customer, BT Retail can (for example) purchase bandwidth significantly cheaper than smaller ISPs.

Edited by deleted (Fri 24-Apr-20 11:12:06)

In reply to a post by Highland76:

Yeah but you're forgetting BT/BTB is the biggest ISP out there so economies of scale come into it. Being BT Wholesale's biggest customer, BT Retail can (for example) purchase bandwidth significantly cheaper than smaller ISPs.

That's not BT's MO, so as candlerb said, highly unlikely.

However, have you considered the option of getting 2 1000/110 lines? You get that extra 100mbps upload and an extra 1gbit download. When no line rentals are in the equation, doing bonded/balanced broadband is an increasingly viable option.

Also, TalkTalk haven't announced their FTTP plans yet, but it's expected they'll use CityFibre in areas where Openreach don't operate, and then you get provider diversity when you have 1 line from BTW and the other from TTB. CityFibre is arguably better as they can provide symmetric 1000/1000 as opposed to BT & Virgin who with their dinosauritis just don't get the message that asymmetric is only necessary when limited by the technology.

It probably is their MO. Openreach and Wholesale have to treat all customers equally. So, as long as the discounts they offer to BT Retail are the same as the discounts they would offer for similar volume from other ISPs then they are fine - there just aren't many (any?) ISPs that could get the same volumes of customers.

I know Openreach work on a regulated price structure, but I wasn't aware Wholesale functioned in the same way.

No isp's want to offer u !!

In reply to a post by zzing123:

CityFibre is arguably better as they can provide symmetric 1000/1000 as opposed to BT & Virgin who with their dinosauritis just don't get the message that asymmetric is only necessary when limited by the technology.

They both sell their FTTP over GPON with a 32 way split.
It's an asymmetric technology.

My response wasn't very kind and I apologise. The world needs more kindness and humour not unkind sarcasm and rudeness.

Edited by CarlTSpeak (Sat 25-Apr-20 13:17:51)

How is Leeds traffic on the road? Your local Cabinet 82! Live in Wakesfield area in Yorkshire. Maybe you need a shave Mr Carl Thomas. How is your cat?

Edited by adslmax (Sat 25-Apr-20 12:11:44)

In reply to a post by adslmax:

How is Leeds traffic on the road? Your local Cabinet 82! Live in Wakesfield area in Yorkshire. Maybe you need a shave Mr Carl Thomas. How is your cat?

Wow so much to break down.

Cabinet 82 is in Leeds, not 'Wakesfield'.

Wakefield and Leeds are different cities. I'm fairly confident Hunslet cabinet 82 isn't involved my broadband now.

Traffic on our road in Wakefield is minimal. Traffic on the main road is busier however it doesn't go to Leeds.

We have more than one cat.

It's fair to say I don't defend my identity obsessively.

EDIT: You do have a point regarding needing a shave, though. I'll give you that one.

EDIT2: If I'm honest, though, if you came to my house I would totally invite you in for a beer. It'd be an interesting conversation.

Edited for tone as excessively brusque due to being in a hurry. Should be nicer to people.

Edited by CarlTSpeak (Sat 25-Apr-20 13:16:27)

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

They both sell their FTTP over GPON with a 32 way split.
It's an asymmetric technology.

32 splices was chosen because each ONT could also have 4 connections, and 32x4 = 128, the maximum number of connections on a PON.

That was definitely the case with 330/50 FTTP, as XG-PON would only allow 311/77 as a maximum speed for 32 splices. Not sure about bigger bandwidths though and if OR is even allowed to introduce contention as premises <> exchange has always been 1:1.

I suspect that 1000/110 would x20 and 1000/220 would x10 spliced to be uncontended (on upstream).

Openreach have never provided uncontended FTTx. It's why the documentation has a peak rate and a committed rate.

The ONTs don't have 4 fibre links in. They take a single fibre.

Edited by CarlTSpeak (Sat 25-Apr-20 14:36:14)

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

It's why the documentation has a peak rate and a committed rate.

Where? This is important as it's the basis of an SLA, so that we can demand that from our ISPs. And please, I'm not talking consumer trash here. I'm only interested in understanding how an Ethernet product can be sold over FTTP if OR can't guarantee 1:1 like they can with FTTC, ADSL and everything else they offer.

Edited by zzing123 (Sat 25-Apr-20 14:59:05)

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

The ONTs don't have 4 fibre links in. They take a single fibre.

I wonder if my 4 port ONT will handle another 3 Full Fibre 900 connection down that single fibre LOL

It probably wouldn't due to that was probably why they dropped the 4 port ONT to a single one, and I am not spending money just to find out LOL.

Anyone here got the Specs that they can share for the 4 Data, 2 Phone port ONT?

Paul

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

My response wasn't very kind and I apologise. The world needs more kindness and humour not unkind sarcasm and rudeness.

Taken from your LinkedIn profile.

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

I've an active presence on a number of forums, and a frequently spiky temperament to match.

I noticed that too.

In reply to a post by zzing123:

32 splices was chosen because each ONT could also have 4 connections, and 32x4 = 128, the maximum number of connections on a PON.

That's not the case.
Openreach run the FTTP network on a 32 way split. Not 32 x4.
GPON can be configured with a 128 way split but OpenReach don't do this.

They only provide a single fibre now and only with 1 port ONT's.

Not sure about bigger bandwidths though and if OR is even allowed to introduce contention as premises <> exchange has always been 1:1.

Contention isn't anywhere near 1:1 on OpenReach FTTP.
Prioritised rates are considerably lower than that.

https://www.btplc.com/SINet/SINs/pdf/506v1p6.pdf

That only lists the prioritised rate OpenReach give to the CP at the handover exchange.
Most ISP's will offer a lower prioritised rate to the customer.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

In reply to a post by zzing123:

32 splices was chosen because each ONT could also have 4 connections, and 32x4 = 128, the maximum number of connections on a PON.

That's not the case.
Openreach run the FTTP network on a 32 way split. Not 32 x4.
GPON can be configured with a 128 way split but OpenReach don't do this.

They only provide a single fibre now and only with 1 port ONT's.

I might be wrong but they might of got mixed up with the Splitter Node can have up to 4 fibres going in and each of those fibres get split 32 ways resulting in 128 fibres.
But the way they said it looked wrong.

Plus the 4 fibres that are blown in for the legacy FTTP Install are just 3 spare fibres.

Paul

In reply to a post by zzing123:

Where? This is important as it's the basis of an SLA, so that we can demand that from our ISPs. And please, I'm not talking consumer trash here. I'm only interested in understanding how an Ethernet product can be sold over FTTP if OR can't guarantee 1:1 like they can with FTTC, ADSL and everything else they offer.

OR don't guarantee 1:1 on FTTC and don't sell ADSL.

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

The ONTs don't have 4 fibre links in. They take a single fibre.

I wonder if my 4 port ONT will handle another 3 Full Fibre 900 connection down that single fibre LOL

It probably wouldn't due to that was probably why they dropped the 4 port ONT to a single one, and I am not spending money just to find out LOL.

Anyone here got the Specs that they can share for the 4 Data, 2 Phone port ONT?

Paul

The GPON feeding that fibre is about 2.4 Gbit/s before overheads. The link between the GPON and the 4 Ethernet ports on the ONT is, I think, 2.5 Gbit/s.

I'll let you know how it manages with 2 x gigabit next week hopefully.

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

EDIT2: If I'm honest, though, if you came to my house I would totally invite you in for a beer. It'd be an interesting conversation.

If I can travel to Yorkshire would be nice to invited me for a glass of white wine with my carer along with me (I don't drink beer or lager) But due to my disability - I don't think you wouldn't want to meet me in person as I do harm others in danger sometimes due to mental illness health

Edited by adslmax (Sat 25-Apr-20 16:36:50)

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

The GPON feeding that fibre is about 2.4 Gbit/s before overheads. The link between the GPON and the 4 Ethernet ports on the ONT is, I think, 2.5 Gbit/s.

Ah, if that is the case the it would have issues with 4 lots then, not that anyone would need more than one or two connections of these speeds, plus if you can afford that many it might be worth looking at getting a fast business connection with redundancy fall back.

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

I'll let you know how it manages with 2 x gigabit next week hopefully.

LOL, do let us know

Paul

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

The GPON feeding that fibre is about 2.4 Gbit/s before overheads. The link between the GPON and the 4 Ethernet ports on the ONT is, I think, 2.5 Gbit/s.

Ah, if that is the case the it would have issues with 4 lots then, not that anyone would need more than one or two connections of these speeds, plus if you can afford that many it might be worth looking at getting a fast business connection with redundancy fall back.

That single fibre contains the feed from every line in the PON.
It wouldn't matter if you had 4 fibres feeding 4 x 1 port ONT's or a single fibre feeding 4 ports on 1 ONT.
The available bandwidth is the same in both scenarios.
That's assuming the 4 port ONT has enough processing power to handle that much data.

For all you know there could be other neighbours on your PON who have already signed up to BT's Full Fibre 900 package.

There's a thread on kitz discussing the internals of the 4 port ONT.

https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15674.0.html

It has a HiSilicon SD5113RBI CPU with an ARM11 core.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

That single fibre contains the feed from every line in the PON.
It wouldn't matter if you had 4 fibres feeding 4 x 1 port ONT's or a single fibre feeding 4 ports on 1 ONT.
The available bandwidth is the same in both scenarios.
That's assuming the 4 port ONT has enough processing power to handle that much data.

For all you know there could be other neighbours on your PON who have already signed up to BT's Full Fibre 900 package.

There's a thread on kitz discussing the internals of the 4 port ONT.

https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15674.0.html

It has a HiSilicon SD5113RBI CPU with an ARM11 core.

I know, I was just referring to the 3 spare fibres not connected to anything going between the CSP and the DP that's all.
As for the link to the kitz site, thanks I will take a look later

Paul

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

Prioritised rates are considerably lower than that.

https://www.btplc.com/SINet/SINs/pdf/506v1p6.pdf

Thanks for that. Commited Information Rates are a bit lower down (Section 2.1.6), although there's no such info on upstream, which is the more important bit.

But what an absolute meal they've made with it. The ONT is a lemon, stuffed into a turkey (intercepting and mangling Ethernet frames) and strapped to a white elephant (it's more expensive to bond FTTP into something usable than use EAD).

In reply to a post by zzing123:

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

Prioritised rates are considerably lower than that.

https://www.btplc.com/SINet/SINs/pdf/506v1p6.pdf

Thanks for that. Commited Information Rates are a bit lower down (Section 2.1.6), although there's no such info on upstream, which is the more important bit.

But what an absolute meal they've made with it. The ONT is a lemon, stuffed into a turkey (intercepting and mangling Ethernet frames) and strapped to a white elephant (it's more expensive to bond FTTP into something usable than use EAD).

Que?

How many offices need >220 Mbit upstream? What are you using to 'bond'? They can be bonded via PPP or anything that runs at layer 3, or higher?

What is the ONT mangling? Can't say I've noticed it cause any issues with the traffic I've been passing through it?

By the way EoFTTC sold at CIR with burst to PIR. Nothing more interesting than that.

In reply to a post by Highland76:

Yeah but you're forgetting BT/BTB is the biggest ISP out there so economies of scale come into it. Being BT Wholesale's biggest customer, BT Retail can (for example) purchase bandwidth significantly cheaper than smaller ISPs.

I think you'll find they can't. At least I hope so, because that would be illegal.

In reply to a post by hoopla:

In reply to a post by Highland76:

Yeah but you're forgetting BT/BTB is the biggest ISP out there so economies of scale come into it. Being BT Wholesale's biggest customer, BT Retail can (for example) purchase bandwidth significantly cheaper than smaller ISPs.

I think you'll find they can't. At least I hope so, because that would be illegal.

I suggest you look up the meaning of 'economy of scale'. There's nothing stopping other CPs signing up millions of customers (like BT retail) and getting the same discounts from their wholesale suppliers.

In reply to a post by hoopla:

In reply to a post by Highland76:

Yeah but you're forgetting BT/BTB is the biggest ISP out there so economies of scale come into it. Being BT Wholesale's biggest customer, BT Retail can (for example) purchase bandwidth significantly cheaper than smaller ISPs.

I think you'll find they can't. At least I hope so, because that would be illegal.

They can and do and nothing illegal about it.

Openreach and BT Wholesale are not the same entities, and different rules apply.

Small ISPs don't deal with Openreach because they would have to build their own backhaul network out to the exchanges. Instead they can deal with BT Wholesale or Talktalk Business, or anyone else who has such a network and is prepared to wholesale services over it. Some ISPs build out only to certain geographical areas where their customers are.

There's competition in this area, to the vast majority of the UK anyway, so Ofcom takes a light-touch approach.

https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=a787e...

Can I respectfully suggest that you do not do anything similar to this ever again.

While you are wrapping up a threat as being a part of your disability, this is still is not acceptable on a public forum. In the same way it is not acceptable in public.

Recommend you discuss this situation with your GP or other health professionals.

Further incidents like this will likely result in us filing a report with appropriate authorities, to protect yourself and others.

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

The GPON feeding that fibre is about 2.4 Gbit/s before overheads. The link between the GPON and the 4 Ethernet ports on the ONT is, I think, 2.5 Gbit/s.

I'll let you know how it manages with 2 x gigabit next week hopefully.

The link between GPON and Ethernet on the HG8240BT is 1 Gbit/s - it's based around the pre- 8240H models.

Any attempt to push >1 Gbps through it will result in packet loss rate limiting it down to 1Gbps. Excess traffic will be dropped, so don't order an extra service if on gigabit and try to balance them unless you really, really want the extra upload.

This one can be put to bed.

The secondary service will be a much lower speed service functioning as backup only so availability of 300 is irrelevant let alone 500 or more 😊

That might of been another one of the reasons why they dropped the 4 data port ONT.

Now I am happy that I have 3 spare fibres wrapped up in my CSP, I could have a nice line up my wall of ONT's LOL

I think if any more packages over FTTP happens it might just be for the upload, but we will see.

The current speeds here will last us for a very long long time yet.

But there is nothing stopping them splitting that single fibre going into the home by 4 (like the Splitter Node, but only split by 4) and putting them into 4 ONT's, that way its using the same single fibre.

Paul

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

But there is nothing stopping them splitting that single fibre going into the home by 4 (like the Splitter Node, but only split by 4) and putting them into 4 ONT's, that way its using the same single fibre.

Paul

Optical power budget. A 4-way splitter in the home will cut power by more than 75% - halving each time for the two splits then a bit of insertion loss.

It's a bad idea from the scalability point of view.

How would Openreach supply 2 gigabit lines then, I wonder?

2 ONTs, 2 fibres.

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

But there is nothing stopping them splitting that single fibre going into the home by 4 (like the Splitter Node, but only split by 4) and putting them into 4 ONT's, that way its using the same single fibre.

Paul

Optical power budget. A 4-way splitter in the home will cut power by more than 75% - halving each time for the two splits then a bit of insertion loss.

It's a bad idea from the scalability point of view.

Ok, fair enough, was just a thought, TBH I never looked that much into it.

Paul

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

2 ONTs, 2 fibres.

At least some of the spare fibres could be used instead of blowing more fibres.
So in our case here BT would just need to connect up one of our spare 3 fibres to the DP and a cable to one of the spare 3 fibres in our CSP, then through the wall to a new ONT.

Not that we need it, the 110Mbit upload will be fine for us here for a long time.

Paul