Armoured line, so therefore direct buried?

Hi,

My property and neighbours have armoured cables coming out of the ground to small grey boxes fixed to the wall, from here another normal black cable above ground leads to the master socket.

Properties built around 1984.

Does this definitely mean the cables are direct buried as they are armoured or is there a chance they are still in ducting?

Thanks!

Yes, armoured cable = ‘direct in ground’ underground cable.

If you are concerned about this and it’s possible affect on an Openreach FTTP deployment, don’t be.There’s an estate round here where every property is served by a direct in ground armoured lead in ... the street itself has had fibre pulled in through the main network ducts ... and then, as and when each property orders, the supply of a new lead to n duct is agreed and arranged.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

If you are concerned about this and it’s possible affect on an Openreach FTTP deployment, don’t be.

To be fair, there have been others who have reported that their properties haven't been fttp enabled during a bigger fttp deployment because of ‘direct in ground’ underground cabling. It seems like a mixed bag to me.

It’s all a ‘mixed bag’ Dect. How many years has the copper network been evolving, techniques and materials have changed a lot. There won’t be a ‘one size fits all’ solution to the FTTP roll out either. I’ve witnessed how much has changed in the last 6 years.

I’ve family in Salisbury, one of the Fibre First cities, their 80’s estate is all DIG lead ins. The solution there has been new poles and CBT’s.

Different strokes innit.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

It’s all a ‘mixed bag’ Dect. How many years has the copper network been evolving, techniques and materials have changed a lot. There won’t be a ‘one size fits all’ solution to the FTTP roll out either. I’ve witnessed how much has changed in the last 6 years.

I’ve family in Salisbury, one of the Fibre First cities, their 80’s estate is all DIG lead ins. The solution there has been new poles and CBT’s.

Different strokes innit.

Totally agree with you, poles do seem to be the preferred option due to cost and time savings.

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

It’s all a ‘mixed bag’ Dect. How many years has the copper network been evolving, techniques and materials have changed a lot. There won’t be a ‘one size fits all’ solution to the FTTP roll out either. I’ve witnessed how much has changed in the last 6 years.

I’ve family in Salisbury, one of the Fibre First cities, their 80’s estate is all DIG lead ins. The solution there has been new poles and CBT’s.

Different strokes innit.

Totally agree with you, poles do seem to be the preferred option due to cost and time savings.

I wouldn’t like to be the contractors putting those poles up on some of these posh estates! They must get some grief!

I live in a Fibre First borough. There’s one very well to do town very close to le that hasn’t started being upgraded yet. I’d say a good 1/4 of it is DIG cable, the residents will go nuts when they see the poles go up, they go mad when Tesco try to do literally anything with their store!!

Rightly so. It's bad enough the shoddy shallow direct in ground build that Virgin are doing without Openreach sticking up poles which nowadays have a much shorter life than they used to.

The future should be done properly.

The line I had installed for ISDN was direct buried back in the 90's, its about 3" to 4" down and runs alone side drainage ditches and gully's for much of its length. Not much is needed by the diggers clearing them out of buildup and vegetation for the line to be cut, FTTP will be installed under R100 so dreading if they use the same route armoured or not. Poles are not an option as it restricts the farmers access to harvest crop so he will deny access. Hopefully when they survey they will knock on the door and ask as there is an alternative route which I used for a new water mains. If not then I will stay with 4G as the hassle of calling them out to repair cut lines is too much bother.

In reply to a post by Icaras:

they go mad when Tesco try to do literally anything with their store!!

They must be well cheesed off that it isn't a Waitrose store

Around here, some of the non-BT fibre is laid so shallow there is just a 25mm layer of tarmac over the duct!

In reply to a post by Icaras:

...the residents will go nuts when they see the poles go up, they go mad when Tesco try to do literally anything with their store!!

Until BT turn round and say "fine, if you don't want poles, then you go to the bottom of the list for installation" just as happened in one London area where residents and council objected to FTTC cabinets.

In reply to a post by MHC:

In reply to a post by Icaras:

...the residents will go nuts when they see the poles go up, they go mad when Tesco try to do literally anything with their store!!

Until BT turn round and say "fine, if you don't want poles, then you go to the bottom of the list for installation" just as happened in one London area where residents and council objected to FTTC cabinets.

Completely agree - except that this is Openreach doing this, who after ten years of having their nails clipped by regulation, have to be everybody else’s [censored], before they can consider doing what they know to be right.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

In reply to a post by MHC:

In reply to a post by Icaras:

...the residents will go nuts when they see the poles go up, they go mad when Tesco try to do literally anything with their store!!

Until BT turn round and say "fine, if you don't want poles, then you go to the bottom of the list for installation" just as happened in one London area where residents and council objected to FTTC cabinets.

Completely agree - except that this is Openreach doing this, who after ten years of having their nails clipped by regulation, have to be everybody else’s [censored], before they can consider doing what they know to be right.

Although I am sure they will find "internal constraints on planning resources" that will effectively do the same!

Same as ours, It's been excavated out of the ditch numerous times in the past cutting off everyone on the cable. The connector donks are just buried in the soil with a yellow tape tied to the nearest tree, when i cared i used to drive out to find which one was full of water before phoning in the fault.

Direct buried also gives me a giggle, the last repair was well over 5 years ago and in parts the only thing burying the cable is the long grass, The farmer at the end of the road directly drives over it everytime he drives into the two fields where the cable is just squashed into the surface of the gravel.

The final 300m or so is just fine up on poles across the field, never had an issue with that in donkeys..

Kicked off quite a discussion.

Thanks for your confirmation of direct in ground.

Cheers.

In reply to a post by partial:

Rightly so. It's bad enough the shoddy shallow direct in ground build that Virgin are doing without Openreach sticking up poles which nowadays have a much shorter life than they used to.

The future should be done properly.

I'll be sure to share that with colleagues in the many nations throughout the world that have FTTP delivered over aerial networks.

Will also let Virgin Media, CityFibre, etc, know that they are doing direct in ground builds despite the fibre cables going into microducts, and that they are building them shallowly despite their following the HAUC requirements for depth.

Anyone would think use of smaller ducts is kinda futuristic rather than having standard telephony size ducts but mileage may vary.

Edited by CarlTSpeak (Mon 10-Aug-20 11:40:17)

In reply to a post by kommando:

The line I had installed for ISDN was direct buried back in the 90's, its about 3" to 4" down and runs alone side drainage ditches and gully's for much of its length. Not much is needed by the diggers clearing them out of buildup and vegetation for the line to be cut, FTTP will be installed under R100 so dreading if they use the same route armoured or not.

You're all good. Partial really, really likes copper cabling. It's fibre he judges with a critical eye so while that installation was fine for ISDN FTTP needs to be about 300 metres underground in steel reinforced concrete tunnels to be acceptable.

In reply to a post by Swac3:

Direct buried also gives me a giggle, the last repair was well over 5 years ago and in parts the only thing burying the cable is the long grass, The farmer at the end of the road directly drives over it everytime he drives into the two fields where the cable is just squashed into the surface of the gravel.

Exactly what I've observed round my way too! The armoured cable isnt even buried and all the farm machinery just drives over it at the field entrances. Many people further up the road now rely on 4G or fixed wireless instead because they got fed up with poor service and outages on the copper service caused by the surface laid cable continually getting damaged.

Shallow directly burying plant is a bad idea. Anybody with any time served experience in maintaining it will tell you so.

So it is disappointing when the future is built in a shoddy way repeating the failures of the past.

In reply to a post by partial:

Shallow directly burying plant is a bad idea. Anybody with any time served experience in maintaining it will tell you so.

So it is disappointing when the future is built in a shoddy way repeating the failures of the past.

Who's direct burying nowadays?

Shallow yes, direct buried no.

Virgin media did my street with FTTP around 9 months ago.
It isn't the 2-3 inches deep horror stories that I keep hearing about but nearer a foot deep.

It's definitely not direct buried.

partial

what are you on about

The future should be done properly. - properly as defined by the openreach rules and policies and decisioning process or properly as defined by you (who has no input knowledge or involvement in the above)

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

Who's direct burying nowadays?

Shallow yes, direct buried no.

Virgin media did my street with FTTP around 9 months ago.
It isn't the 2-3 inches deep horror stories that I keep hearing about but nearer a foot deep.

It's definitely not direct buried.

Partial is fixated with that the 250mm minimum cover they have to deliver in footways is shallow burying, and that microducts don't count as duct but direct burying of fibre cable.

See comments under name 'Fibre Bubble' on ISPR.

To be fair, a bit of nylon tube 6 or 8mm in diameter isn't going to protect the contents from a spade or fork, and Virgin Media have a bit of a reputation for just laying it under the surface from the Toby to the property.

It's worse than that as the most widespread cable detectors that utilities and their contractors use will not pick up the shallow direct in ground fibre tubes.

Whereas the shallow shoddy traditional drops Virgin did across peoples gardens are detectable. Albeit many times because they are now on the surface and visible.

Possibly the biggest problem is not the cutting of the shallow tubes but the damaging of them. This has always been the biggest problem for buried copper. Not the cutting the damage. Shallow unreported damage to tubes will quickly fill with water and shortly after silt.

Damaged fibre tubes full of silt and no option to expand the network without further extensive shallow trenching. The future deserves better.

In reply to a post by Fastman3:

partial

what are you on about

The future should be done properly. - properly as defined by the openreach rules and policies and decisioning process or properly as defined by you (who has no input knowledge or involvement in the above)

Experience that tells me to treat BT planning rules with extreme caution. For example, it wasn't that long ago that BT planning rules were prescribing 0.8 pairs per plot on new builds in an age of second lines in the back bedroom. More problems than you can shake a DACS at.

We sorted it but luckily we had the duct space to do it.

Edited by deleted (Wed 12-Aug-20 21:36:42)

I know what your saying but all to often jobs in all trades have corners cut to save time and money, most don't care about potential problems in the future.

Not to mention that in the 70's DIG and aluminium was considered a good idea, although obviously ally was pretty god for phone calls, it still corroded quicker.

These are commercial rollouts we're talking about, and choices are made for commercial reasons, which includes both cost and how quickly they can be deployed.

Cityfibre and the like have chosen to spend some of their money on narrow trenching and microducting. They *could* spend more on traditional ducting, which *might* be better in the long run, but it might not. Traditional ducting is still subject to blockages and breakage of course, as Openreach's own network testifies.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the long run. If an individual microduct becomes blocked, or a bundle of microducts becomes damaged, will they reinstall the whole runs, or just abandon those customers? And how often will this occur in practice? I think we are too early into these deployments to have any idea.

I am aware of the reasons and fully appreciate what your saying.

VM started installing in our area around two to three years ago, I often look on one.network due to the on-going FTTP rollout and often see VM roadworks stating rectify blocked duct, so yes it's all ready happening and they do seem to be fixing at least some of them.

PS it's only nylon tubing, they probably cut it and use speed fit fittings to fit a new section of tubing.

Edited by R0NSKI (Thu 13-Aug-20 13:33:51)