Community Fibre / PIA overhead deployment methods

I'm in the lucky position that both Openreach FTTP and Community Fibre are building in my area. It has been hard to tell who is doing what work, but over recent weeks it looks like Community Fibre are coming first.

There isn't a great deal of information out there on their deployments, especially in PIA/overhead areas so I thought I'd bring together what I have found out. I'll post some pictures tomorrow.

The pole-top enclosures in a neighbouring area (built previously) look like HellermanTyton 'Aerial Fibre Nodes'. In contrast to the Corning Optisheath that Openreach use, these have a door and can contain splices and splitters on lower trays, with customer connections on the top tray. They are available in both SC and LC, PC and APC - I haven't seen one open to know what type CF use. Allowing 24 connections per enclosure, they're a much better choice than Optisheath (12 port max) if you have to pay Openreach for each item and cable on the pole.

From the pole, drop fibre spans to the eaves of houses then down to an external connection/splice point where it joins to a fibre entering the property. These are black and larger than the Openreach CSPs. I think they look like HellermanTyton 'Customer Connection Enclosures'. Like the AFNs, these can accommodate different connector flavours or splices - heathrow said a splice was used on his install.

In my area most poles have just had a single 7/3.7mm microduct (it looks like Emtelle aerial type) run from footway box up under the existing protective capping. I'm not sure if the underground tube bundle has been installed yet, but a team of two spent less than 15 minutes at each pole on that task. I'd be impressed if a tube had been extracted from a bundle, joined and sealed in that time.

Community Fibre, not having an exchange network, site their OLTs in powered cabinets. Those recently installed in this area are light grey in colour and about half the width of a typical Openreach PCP. There are smaller cabinets sited with them, perhaps for electrical connection/metering. Also showing up have been large (3 lid) footway chambers, both near the cabinets but also deeper into the network, presumably housing splitters.

I know XGS-PON is in use, but I don't know what the split ratios are. In theory, I think 24f bundles could be blown to each pole, but it would also be possible to blow fewer fibres that deep and use splitters at the pole. That would reduce the number of splices needed at each pole... but there are a lot of other considerations, so who knows.

They have stated they cover ~4000 premises per cabinet, which could be 32 ports on 1:128 splits (which seems to be the maximum split ratio on Adtran kit).

Any pointers to further information welcome! "Community Fibre" as a search term mostly turns up Openreach CFPs, I wonder who had the name first.

Here's a picture of one of the cabinet pairs that has appeared recently: https://ibb.co/R6v77H8

Seems the locals have wasted no time in vomiting on one.

Spoilt for choice!

On the basis that the service is symmetric, capable of packages in excess of 1Gbps and the prices are competitive, I would choose CF over an Openreach provided service.

If it’s utterly terrible you can always get Openreach provided FTTP connected.

community fibre partnership is openreach co funded programme and it programme has been around since around 2012 ish and it became community fibre partnership in about 2016 ish -

community fibre is a a seperate Network builder normally urban

Interesting. I have no idea where my CF cabinet is.

In very rough terms, 4000 subscribers in typical high-density Victorian terraced housing fill about 1 square kilometre. The leafier your suburb the higher that number!

Some of Openreach's handover exchanges are ~5km as the crow flies from the FTTP premises they serve. From what I've seen so far, Community Fibre operate a more distributed model with cabinets in or adjacent to the areas they serve.

My gut feeling is that cabinets in SDU areas will be within a 1km radius of the premises they serve, probably more like 700m. That's just a guess for now, I haven't come across many of them yet.

In reply to a post by Fastman3:

community fibre partnership is openreach co funded programme and it programme has been around since around 2012 ish and it became community fibre partnership in about 2016 ish -

community fibre is a a seperate Network builder normally urban

Are they the cabinets that are marked with the name of the council partnership on them? There's one 200 metres from my house, in the centre of the village.
My line is connected to a cabinet 1200 metres away
Despite paying for a new line, I'm stuck with the old one

Further discoveries:

In an adjacent area where CF's deployment is complete, I came across an open pole-top enclosure. It appears to contain 16x LC APC outlets on the customer connection level.

A significant number of poles have more than one CF enclosure attached. Speculation - maybe their standard deployment is to use one active fibre per AFN with a 1:16 split located in the AFN, and a further 1:8 splitter at an underground node. This reduces the splice count at each pole, but might make for inefficiency in OLT port usage. When I get some time I'll look at the number of properties typically served per AFN.

In the current deployment area I came across some discarded microduct bundle pieces - colours and sizes consistent with Emtelle MHT175 5/3.5mm. This can accommodate a 24-fibre unit, which is excessive if splitters are located in AFNs. Either I'm wrong about the 1:16 splits in AFNs, or they have sized the microducts to allow a PtP infrastructure in future.

I just noticed a pretty large triple footway chamber for with CF branding has been installed about a 10 minute walk from my place in N1. I’d say it’s been there less than a fortnight. CF have no other immediate presence nearby to my knowledge. The closest single connection on TBB maps is probably 1/2 a mile away.

https://postimg.cc/xcZfVBzL

https://postimg.cc/n9tFgmjg

Bizarrely or coincidentally there is an Openreach FTTC cabinet about 5 metres away which has just had the foundation exposed with a sole yellow fibre cable poking out through a 54mm get duct with some fast setting readymix poured in....I’ll get a photo tomorrow.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

a pretty large triple footway chamber with CF branding has been installed about a 10 minute walk from my place in N1. I’d say it’s been there less than a fortnight.

The triple lid chamber is what has been appearing in my area (SW16). Most are on Streatham High Road, the most major road in the area. I have seen four chambers spaced between 200 and 350m from each other, with every second being sited with a new cabinet.

Looking over towards the Furzedown/Tooting area which they built previously, CF chambers are smaller, only a double lid type but more numerous, spacing 120-300m.

As far as timelines go, the first chambers appeared here before Christmas if I remember right. Sporadic duct unblocking over January and February, microduct up poles a week or two ago, first signs of underground microduct bundle installation today. Many planned roadworks over the coming weeks - I'd say it's two months out if all goes well.

Work in progress - 7 way microduct (presumed 5/3.5mm) bundle in footway chamber, with reducing coupling from a 7/3.7mm microduct coming from a pole.

https://ibb.co/p13v5t1

In reply to a post by ft247:

Here's a picture of one of the cabinet pairs that has appeared recently: https://ibb.co/R6v77H8

Seems the locals have wasted no time in vomiting on one.

Small cab looks like a power pedestal / metering cabinet. Active gear, OLT etc in the vented enclosure. Looks solid. Won’t mind a bit of pavement pizza! 🤣

No cabs installed around here yet that I can see. I’d be surprised if the conservation lot don’t arc up over the battle grey paint scheme like they made OR repaint some of theirs!

In reply to a post by ft247:

Further discoveries:
...
This can accommodate a 24-fibre unit, which is excessive if splitters are located in AFNs. Either I'm wrong about the 1:16 splits in AFNs, or they have sized the microducts to allow a PtP infrastructure in future.

They may be designing the duct infrastructure to cater for other services overlay. eg if serving mixed domestic /business locations, the ability to offer direct Ethernet PtpP services as well as XGSPON.

Although Openreach keep such infrastructure physically and logically separate, there’s no rule that says CF can’t.

Edited by Pheasant (Fri 12-Mar-21 22:27:43)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Although Openreach keep such infrastructure physically and logically separate, there’s no rule that says CF can’t.

In theory you can assign traditional wavelengths (or TWDM slots) not used by XGS-PON to PtP links on the PON.

Some interesting thoughts from an Adtran presentation here: https://www.wecc.org/Administrative/Luhman%20-%2010G...

In reply to a post by ft247:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

a pretty large triple footway chamber with CF branding has been installed about a 10 minute walk from my place in N1. I’d say it’s been there less than a fortnight.

The triple lid chamber is what has been appearing in my area (SW16). Most are on Streatham High Road, the most major road in the area. I have seen four chambers spaced between 200 and 350m from each other, with every second being sited with a new cabinet.

Looking over towards the Furzedown/Tooting area which they built previously, CF chambers are smaller, only a double lid type but more numerous, spacing 120-300m.

As far as timelines go, the first chambers appeared here before Christmas if I remember right. Sporadic duct unblocking over January and February, microduct up poles a week or two ago, first signs of underground microduct bundle installation today. Many planned roadworks over the coming weeks - I'd say it's two months out if all goes well.

Presumably they’re over-building the new triple-lid chambers over existing Openreach duct network and cutting open/into the ducts they have access to via their PIA arrangements?

It could even be as prosaic as having a “consumer” PON and “business” PON running side by side both XGSPON but the business side may have fewer splits / run back to a separate OLT.

They have after all published a 10Gbit symmetric business service and a 3Gbit domestic service. Are these running on the same glass/PON?

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Presumably they’re over-building the new triple-lid chambers over existing Openreach duct network and cutting open/into the ducts they have access to via their PIA arrangements?

The CF chambers are always in close proximity to Openreach duct. I had presumed that the standard method was to lay short duct from the CF chamber to break into the existing Openreach chamber; PIA prices exist for this work. I'm not sure if overlaying a duct route is permitted.

There have certainly been no significant new lengths of duct laid in the area, the deployment makes maximum use of Openreach infrastructure.

Yes they aren't digging up the footpath with new wholesale trenching and new ducts around here either, that's for certain. Will be interesting to see how they progress.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

It could even be as prosaic as having a “consumer” PON and “business” PON running side by side both XGSPON but the business side may have fewer splits / run back to a separate OLT.

They have after all published a 10Gbit symmetric business service and a 3Gbit domestic service. Are these running on the same glass/PON?

I'd say it's more cost-effective to run one physical PON and if need be prioritise traffic at a higher level for now, even with the 3Gbit domestic service. You only have to provide what people are actually going to use! If Openreach can get away with 2.4Gbit downlink on a 32-split, 10Gbit downlink on a 128-split should be ample given typical domestic usage patterns.

I'd be very surprised if the 3Gbit service was taken by more than 1% of home users. Most will be on 150Mbit and typical individual domestic use only goes above 10Mbit on a 5-minute average basis when there's a game or OS update to do.

Even Virgin for the most part get away with something like 1.2Gbit down shared between what I suspect are many hundreds of domestic properties per segment. My If there were only 128 users on my DOCSIS segment I'm sure the service would work perfectly!

The business 10Gbit services probably warrant a separate fibre or wavelength. I wonder how many they sell at £500 per month - outside of media production businesses I can't imagine there is much demand.

Side note: it's interesting to look at what ISPs have reported as their peak demand recently and divide by the number of subscribers. The numbers seem to work out at less than 5Mbit average, even at 'record-breaking' peaks. A 1:128 split on XGS-PON allows for an average of more than 70Mbit per user, and that's with 128 active subscribers per PON. Not every premises passed will take a service, so to my mind XGS-PON is pretty future-proof. If they do start to get saturated it's easy, if a two-level split structure is used, to change to a 1:64 split. And I think by then someone will have 100G-PON in low-cost mass production.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Yes they aren't digging up the footpath with new wholesale trenching and new ducts around here either, that's for certain. Will be interesting to see how they progress.

Have a look at public.londonworks.gov.uk and filter by works owner 'COM'. There are quite a network of cabinets planned near you, but I suspect you're a little to the West of where they're building.

Good works map link. Quite a few showing in Hackney. Wonder if the works description is somewhat generic - otherwise there’s a good few cabinets going in proximity.

Spotted today: fibre units have appeared from some microducts on poles. The few I could see were all Emtelle MHT2185 12-fibre type.

So, either they're only lighting up 12 ports per pole-top box, OR there are pole-top splitters and they're blowing 12 fibres to allow plenty of room for expansion. I suspect the latter.

There is fan noise from the local cabinet, which is also a good sign.

In reply to a post by ft247:

Spotted today: fibre units have appeared from some microducts on poles. The few I could see were all Emtelle MHT2185 12-fibre type.

So, either they're only lighting up 12 ports per pole-top box, OR there are pole-top splitters and they're blowing 12 fibres to allow plenty of room for expansion. I suspect the latter.

There is fan noise from the local cabinet, which is also a good sign.

How many premises is each pole-top box serving? Would they go much beyond 12 per pole?

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

How many premises is each pole-top box serving? Would they go much beyond 12 per pole?

Yes - from a very small sample size (two streets) around 50% of poles have two boxes.

Counting premises passed per pole is complicated in these SDU streets, some have been subdivided into maisonettes/flats and some have not. Do you count premises as exist now or potential future premises? Or how many premises there were when the poles were first installed?

Going by current premises, it feels like there is a number somewhere around 25 at which point a second box is installed.

I have no way of knowing whether all the boxes are configured identically. There's an argument for keeping the architecture (split ratios/hierarchy) consistent, it keeps the splice count way down. The counter-argument is that it can lead to providing (say) 32 ports to a pole serving 25 premises, which given that take-up is never 100% would lead to inefficient use of of OLT ports.

I'd say that's why Openreach have gone for the CBT architecture: no splicing at the pole (saves labour) and you end up with a bunch of fibres at a splitter node where 1:32 splits can be much more efficiently utilised.

However some poles have 3 OR CBTs on them and hence three cables running down the pole, all PIA chargeable items. I'm sure someone at CF has done the sums. Also, I'd wager the HellermanTyton pole enclosures are cheaper than Corning Optisheath CBTs, plus there is no vendor lock-in on drop cables.

Coming up to my one year with my leased line with Vaioni I decided to email Community Fibre last week to see are they coming to my area. I got a reply back within a couple of days asking could they come around to see my place. The sales rep cane around, said he talked to the network team and they would be interested. We had a chat on pricing and I signed a contract last Friday. They called me yesterday saying they'd like to do a site survey today. The guy came around, took some pics and said they would also have to do an overhead PIA solution too. He's going to put together a plan in the coming days and they will send it to me. The install time he said is about a month but, having experienced the joys of getting a leased line in last year, I'll take that with a pinch of salt. I've let my neighbours know about it as one only has VDSL and the other has Virgin.

In reply to a post by roundrobin:

I signed a contract last Friday.

Is your service going to be XGS-PON or a point to point leased line type circuit? I didn't think they were in the latter market.

How far are you away from their current coverage area?

I have a feeling from how the guy today described it was that it's more XGS-PON. I should know more in the coming days. I'm about 300m away apparently so I may have to do some scouting to find out more.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

How many premises is each pole-top box serving? Would they go much beyond 12 per pole?

I've come across a few groups of poles in a completed area where there's one microduct up the first pole, which has CF pole-top boxes (at least one, I can't remember if the first pole ever has two). There is then a length of the same microduct spanning to another pole, which has a CF pole-top box but no CF microduct descending that pole, so essentially more than one pole is being fed from a single microduct.

It's of course possible that they've blown a 24-fibre unit in these cases and there are no splitters in the pole-top boxes, but that strikes me as a really labour-intensive way to do it and leaves little room for expansion.

Things got quiet in my area for a few weeks, but the pace has picked up again. Multiple teams are clearing duct blockages this week. Openreach have also moved in with their rollout, in some cases I'm seeing street works permits applied for by both in the same locations. I presume whoever gets there second is pleasantly surprised when the duct has already been cleared.

As well as the 7-way 5/3.5mm MHT175 type microduct bundle that forms most of the underground distribution network to poles. I've seen some 12/8 thickwall microduct in use with mini cable of (very approximately) 6.5mm diameter. I assume this carries unsplit ports from OLTs deeper into the network prior to splitting/further distribution in the 7-way bundles.

I've come across a few groups of poles in a completed area where there's one microduct up the first pole, which has CF pole-top boxes (at least one, I can't remember if the first pole ever has two). There is then a length of the same microduct spanning to another pole, which has a CF pole-top box but no CF microduct descending that pole, so essentially more than one pole is being fed from a single microduct.

It's of course possible that they've blown a 24-fibre unit in these cases and there are no splitters in the pole-top boxes, but that strikes me as a really labour-intensive way to do it and leaves little room for expansion.

Some poles in the new rollout area are being spanned from another. One is a carrier pole, but most aren't.

My previous post is inaccurate - it seems that the cable being used to span between poles is not the all-black microduct, but a 48F ULW overhead cable, black with yellow stripe.

It remains to be seen whether the first 'base' pole will only have 12 or 24 fibres blown up a microduct in the first instance, or whether 48F cable will be used.

Interesting. I went for a walk yesterday and so many poles around the area now have looped up cabling on them (with yellow tape to keep them looped). What I did notice is that no cable has the yellow stripe on them unlike with Openreach. It's just a pure black cable. Do you think it's Community Fibre as they said they are planning to launch in the area? Nothing on their site when you put in postcodes.

Not all fibre cable has a yellow mark on it.

I have yellow tape, using it doesn’t denote fibre, it means it’s yellow tape.

Yeah I'm thinking it's most likely Community Fibre. Openreach are also slowly making their way towards here too so it's good to have multiple suppliers.

Doesn't need to have a yellow stripe (or yellow tape!) for it to be fibre, as has been suggested.

CF also deploying in my area. There's a pole right outside my bedroom window. Got my DSLR out for a couple photos, which are at https://imgur.com/a/DTXk4V1

First one shows a close up of the cable. It's marked with "Community Fibre Limited 0800 082 0770 [103M] 773.7MM 22/01/21"

Interestingly they have their own marked cable jacket, and the distance markers increase (103, 104, 105M) along the cable. The 773.7MM does not change.

It's thinner than the Openreach one that gets deployed - I'm not lucky enough to be in a FTTP area but 2 minutes down the road is as they're on a different exchange.

Edit to add: This is a pole that serves circa 35 premises.

Edited by branflakes (Sat 17-Apr-21 14:14:05)

Oh very interesting. Good to see what it looks like.

Apologies go everyone who thought I meant that a yellow tape signified it was fibre. I meant it just happened to be the tape keeping it in-place and wrapped up on the pole before they put it up.

In reply to a post by branflakes:

First one shows a close up of the cable. It's marked with "Community Fibre Limited 0800 082 0770 [103M] 773.7MM 22/01/21"

Interestingly they have their own marked cable jacket, and the distance markers increase (103, 104, 105M) along the cable. The 773.7MM does not change.

I think it reads 7/3.7mm, which means that it is microduct of 7mm external diameter and 3.7mm internal diameter.

branflakes, out of interest - how long was it between the cable appearing on the pole and the box being installed?

In reply to a post by roundrobin:

What I did notice is that no cable has the yellow stripe on them unlike with Openreach. It's just a pure black cable. Do you think it's Community Fibre as they said they are planning to launch in the area?

Most of the Community Fibre cable (microduct) on poles in my area is pure black. The yellow stripe is only on 48F cable which is on a small number of poles where the build is spanning between them rather than using underground duct which must be blocked. The first cable of this type spanning poles only started to appear six weeks after the first all-black cable.

The colour of the PVC tape used to coil the cable is unlikely to be relevant.

Ah - that makes sense! I was wondering what 773.7mm had to do with anything!!

Cable installed about three weeks ago (pulled and coiled up). Couple chaps came along and then installed it last Sunday. I think its now waiting for someone on a cherrypicker or longer ladder to mount it up the pole properly, as it's around 8ft off the ground as of now.

In reply to a post by roundrobin:

Openreach are also slowly making their way towards here too so it's good to have multiple suppliers.

Same here in SW16, Openreach hot on the heels of Community Fibre. Sadly the commercial reality is that where an altnet (or Virgin) start, Openreach have to follow quickly to retain/regain market share... great for me, but perhaps not the best for the country as a whole.

With that said, Openreach FTTP prices have not fallen enough (unless you can get Vodafone on OR) to make it worth switching the backup line away from FTTC. I'm in contract for that until late 2022 though, so we'll see how things evolve. I'd expect Community Fibre to be fairly reliable, so I might consider 4G a sufficient backup. Hard to judge, because if the CF cabinet falls over, everyone will be on 4G.

I'd also say in another 18 months that 40/10 and 80/20 will more generally be offered on FTTP if available, decreasing prices closer to their FTTC equivalents. I don't see end-user prices for OR FTTP at 150/30 and above coming down much as they are already relatively competitive with VM. That will take longer until altnets are more established.

In reply to a post by branflakes:

Cable installed about three weeks ago (pulled and coiled up). Couple chaps came along and then installed it last Sunday. I think its now waiting for someone on a cherrypicker or longer ladder to mount it up the pole properly, as it's around 8ft off the ground as of now.

That's interesting, six weeks ago here there was a blitz of cables appearing coiled on poles. Nothing much has happened since then apart from constant duct unblocking/track installation although that has increased in intensity recently and seems to be reaching a conclusion. There were a few days when a fibre blowing team were in the area, around three weeks ago, but they've only blown to about 40% of the poles. At the tail end of last week some pole to pole spans of 48-fibre cable have been installed, presumably in areas where the ducts were considered uneconomic to repair.

If it was me, I'd schedule the fibre blowing team back next and a gang to complete the trunk cable back to the cabinet from the splitter node. Easier to have the pole-end splicing team in last so they can check light levels at the connectors.

Worth mentioning my pole was one of the last to have the cable/ducting pulled through after a blocked duct in the chamber that fed the pole so that may have played a part in the speed of the black box appearing on the pole. They're doing a massive part of East London, including nearly all the Upton Park exchange area and stopping where the Ilford Central exchange takes over to avoid FTTP overbuild. About time we got the better internet!

In reply to a post by ft247:

If it was me, I'd schedule the fibre blowing team back next and a gang to complete the trunk cable back to the cabinet from the splitter node. Easier to have the pole-end splicing team in last so they can check light levels at the connectors.

I'm with you on that. Seems like they've recently got Kelly Comms onboard to help with deployment alongside Comex2000. I did see the teams blowing fibre a few weeks ago on an adjacent road so likely not too long to wait. I still have 13 months left on my Gig1 contract so might just get a 30 day rolling 150/150 as a backup line and regrade to gigabit with ~3mo left on the VM contract.

In reply to a post by ft247:

The colour of the PVC tape used to coil the cable is unlikely to be relevant.

I didn't think yellow meant anything, just being whatever the technician had to hand - but a lot of CF cable around here is coiled with yellow tape too.

I happened across this PIA document yesterday. It's only a draft from 2018, so may not be currently relevant, but makes multiple references to the use of yellow tape to mark PIA cables and joints in the underground network. Perhaps as some kind of a 'this isn't yours' signal to Openreach staff.

In reply to a post by ft247:

I'd also say in another 18 months that 40/10 and 80/20 will more generally be offered on FTTP if available, decreasing prices closer to their FTTC equivalents. I don't see end-user prices for OR FTTP at 150/30 and above coming down much as they are already relatively competitive with VM. That will take longer until altnets are more established.

80/20 or 40/10? Having recently got FTTP installed by a local ISP - with not an OR vehicle in sight, their minimum entry level was 120/120Mb/s unlimited connection priced at £29 which was actually £5 cheaper than my then 80/20 FTTC connection. They don't offer 80/20 or anything like it. They had 3 levels in total, 500/500 and 1000/1000Mb/s being the other two for domestic customers. I settled on the 500/500.

There doesn't seem to be any local cabinet either. The main fibre connection seemed to be done in the man hole nearest to where the FTTC cabinet is located - they had a van parked there for the best part of a day. They went through both sections of the village (and outlying houses) at a tremendous rate. From the time that they pulled in the additional fibre cable into that manhole, it took just a couple of weeks for me to go live. Some cables that had been left dangling from various poles, ended up disappearing (connected?) about a week later.

So far, very impressed, with the FTTC experience already forgotten.

Quantum Air Fibre use the same passive optical network (PON) architecture that Openreach use, but they are at liberty to use whatever upstream and downstream speed splits they like, unlike service provider that are on the Openreach network. One of their main drawcards really.

Although they don’t have exchanges, the active fibre terminations will be at a cabinet (node) level (perhaps a few miles from you) from where they will backhaul to their datacentres. But not nearly as local as an FTTC cabinet would be.

In reply to a post by 69bertie:

80/20 or 40/10? Having recently got FTTP installed by a local ISP - with not an OR vehicle in sight, their minimum entry level was 120/120Mb/s unlimited connection priced at £29 which was actually £5 cheaper than my then 80/20 FTTC connection. They don't offer 80/20 or anything like it.

I agree that the sooner 80/20 and 40/10 can be forgotten the better! But I think they will live on on the Openreach FTTP network for a while yet, that way ISPs can sell what they'll call the 'same' products in both FTTC and FTTP areas.

Openreach are moving forward here at speed, a good few streets worth of CBTs are now mounted and a few pole mounted joints are showing up. Openreach have also been stringing much fibre between poles where they've decided unblocking the duct isn't worth it - in many cases with three parallel cables. I wonder if that would make noise in the wind.

Some of this has been done in areas where Community Fibre unblocked the ducts and installed subduct weeks ago! I guess one side of OR doesn't talk to the other, there must be some regulation-imposed Chinese wall between PIA and their own network planning.

I wonder why Community Fibre have this area on the back burner, there must be a delay with backhaul or duct blockages near the cabinets. Or maybe they know that it will take Openreach another two months to get to market and are concentrating their efforts where OR are closer to completion.

Seeing it all happen makes one appreciate the challenge for Openreach of managing this on a national level at high volume. It's impressive that they're going so fast.

After getting planning permission for the wrong side of the road last month, they are back today building the footway chamber. Tomorrow morning thy are unblocking a duct and then putting in the fibre in the afternoon to the Post. Interesting to see them going around the area and marking all the blocked ducts on the various streets. Seems to be quite a few. Last year Openreach didn't get permission from the Council to unblock the ducts on my street so this will actually benefit Openreach if they do decide to put FTTP on the street.

Is there a reverse PIA charge back to OR for a customer (service provider) to clean up their duct network for them!? 😎

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Is there a reverse PIA charge back to OR for a customer (service provider) to clean up their duct network for them!? 😎

I believe there are allowances for remedial works aka 'Network Adjustment', the rules have changed a few times as they were creating perverse incentives. See https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/01/openre...

Looks like the 2 block ducts have been sorted from the patchwork of holes filled in on the pavement. Next stage is the Fibre to be brought to the telephone post.

I reckon there's an issue in my area at the macro level, like delays with backhaul or a key spine route.

Most other experiences here have been that the service becomes available shortly after the pole-top box being mounted. In this area the first of those went up around two weeks ago and yet no addresses are live yet. As of the end of last week a good 40% of this build phase has the pole-top equipment installed.

It could be coincidence but that 40% just so happens to be where Openreach have built their FTTP to first, not where CF started their build (and finished unblocking/getting fibre to poles first). Openreach aren't live yet either.

The rough timeline here is:
Late 2020 - presumed spine route footway chambers built
December 20 - presumed spine route unblocking
Early 2021 - cabinets constructed
Feb onwards - sporadic duct unblocking.
Early March - microduct on most poles
Mid March - first blown fibre
April - increased intensity of duct unblocking works
Late April - more blown fibre. Pole-top boxes spliced (and left at low level) end of month
Early May - First pole-top boxes mounted in final positions. Further boxes spliced, more fibre blowing.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Is there a reverse PIA charge back to OR for a customer (service provider) to clean up their duct network for them!? 😎

Further to this, Openreach would be wise not to pay it in at least one case...

Community Fibre had several holes in the footpath on my street sorting out collapsed Openreach duct last month. It's a single run of Duct 54 (or some older version of approx. 100mm duct), and that section until this year contained only one or two 50 or 100 pair cables.

After at least two visits Community Fibre got their 7-way tube bundle down it. Last week fibre units were blown to all poles on my street.

Today I found Openreach making more (and bigger) holes in pretty much the same places Community Fibre did...

So either CF unblocked it 'enough' to get their stuff through but no more... or Openreach PIA didn't talk to Openreach FTTP and they sent a team out based on an old survey, who duly dug up the bit they were asked to in order to get paid.

CF is available here too. But their packages are too inflexible. No option for static IP or VAT invoicing for businesses who don't need full leased line guarantees (and consequent pricing). So won't even consider them let alone give them wayleave as a result of their short-sightedness. Furthermore, if I wanted that level of business offer, ITS Technology would be a better option in this area. So CF is nonstarter, which is a shame because their physical network is great.

Today should be the final day of the install. All the ducts have been unblocked and the internal work at my house is complete. They have to put a box on the telephone pole and bring fibre across to my house. I'm hoping it all gets completed today.

So the first bit of my area is now live, about 5-6 weeks after pole-top boxes first appeared, and 3 months almost to the day from the first microduct on poles.

It's not the area where CF started first, but it is the area Openreach are closest to lighting up. Who knows how long that will take, all that really matters is that CF have beaten them to market.

I wonder if backhaul from the OLT is not yet at full capacity - the 3Gbps option is not offered. Not that anyone really needs it, mind you...

In reply to a post by ft247:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Is there a reverse PIA charge back to OR for a customer (service provider) to clean up their duct network for them!? 😎

Further to this, Openreach would be wise not to pay it in at least one case...

Community Fibre had several holes in the footpath on my street sorting out collapsed Openreach duct last month. It's a single run of Duct 54 (or some older version of approx. 100mm duct), and that section until this year contained only one or two 50 or 100 pair cables.

After at least two visits Community Fibre got their 7-way tube bundle down it. Last week fibre units were blown to all poles on my street.

Today I found Openreach making more (and bigger) holes in pretty much the same places Community Fibre did...

So either CF unblocked it 'enough' to get their stuff through but no more... or Openreach PIA didn't talk to Openreach FTTP and they sent a team out based on an old survey, who duly dug up the bit they were asked to in order to get paid.

Openreach installed CBTs on poles in my street a few weeks ago. I got the impression they pulled the tails back to the end of the street - but they are scheduled to dig that same bit of footway up again in the next few days.

If they do turn up and dig, it will be the fourth or fifth time between OR and CF that the same patch has been excavated.

There have been delays further downstream so it's still not activated. I should know more later this week. No real urgency on my side as I'm still in contract with my existing provider until next month. There is a lot of work being done in the area at the moment by them . I'm curious what the backhaul will be like.

That's what the Openreach subbies did on my road. The CBT tails were all pulled to a footway box at the end of the road where the splitters are.

In reply to a post by roundrobin:

There have been delays further downstream so it's still not activated. I should know more later this week. No real urgency on my side as I'm still in contract with my existing provider until next month. There is a lot of work being done in the area at the moment by them . I'm curious what the backhaul will be like.

How have you found your leased line service? Did you have to pay any ECCs as its only a 12 month contract you are on?

In reply to a post by ft247:

So the first bit of my area is now live, about 5-6 weeks after pole-top boxes first appeared, and 3 months almost to the day from the first microduct on poles.

It's not the area where CF started first, but it is the area Openreach are closest to lighting up. Who knows how long that will take, all that really matters is that CF have beaten them to market.

I wonder if backhaul from the OLT is not yet at full capacity - the 3Gbps option is not offered. Not that anyone really needs it, mind you...

My area went live on the 1st (daily checking...) and ordered straight away. No BT FTTP but I'll laugh if all of a sudden, the Upton Park exchange is in scope for OR FTTP soon.

I get offered a 3Gbps option round here. £99 is a damn good price if I needed it...

Edited by branflakes (Thu 03-Jun-21 10:33:58)

It's been great except for a couple of days in February when there was a routing issue by SSE. Other than that rock solid at all times. I didn't have to pay any ECCs and I paid the same amount as if I was in a 3 year contract. A win win

In reply to a post by simon194:

That's what the Openreach subbies did on my road. The CBT tails were all pulled to a footway box at the end of the road where the splitters are.

It is a much faster method of deployment which manages to make good use of less skilled labour - I can see why Openreach went for it.

The downsides are: multiple cables down the pole (versus one microduct for CF), an increased number of pole-top items (12 port max? on an Openreach CBT, 24 in the CF equipment), and some reduced future flexibility (there will be spare tubes in the CF underground plant).

The cynic in me says that downsides 1 and 2 happen to attract a PIA charge per item but are of no concern to Openreach - thus encouraging PIA-based competitors to use slower deployment methods.

In reply to a post by roundrobin:

It's been great except for a couple of days in February when there was a routing issue by SSE. Other than that rock solid at all times. I didn't have to pay any ECCs and I paid the same amount as if I was in a 3 year contract. A win win

You did well indeed. Presume you must be in a metro area / where SSE had some existing presence that they didn’t charge ECCs

Yeah I am lucky. I'm in East London

Yes of course, my brain wasn’t in gear. It would have to be London as CF are really only building in London.

Plenty of fibre assets in the ground in London, from various providers, a strong reason perhaps you were able to get a 1 year contract with no ECCs.

It's funny that they had to do a roundabout way to get me the fibre because they didn't get permission to unblock the ducts. Then this year CF managed to get permission and have all the ducts unblocked. If OR do decide to put Fibre along the street, that work is now done

In reply to a post by roundrobin:

If OR do decide to put Fibre along the street, that work is now done

I wouldn't bet on it! There have been many locations in my area where both a CF and Openreach crew have dug up the same blockage location a few weeks apart. Often more than once each.

OR have been supposed to be doing work on the cabinet on the road for over 2 weeks now. It pops up One.Network for a couple of days, vanishes afterwards, then pops up with new days. Not yet seen them on the road lol

This took quite a lot longer than expected .

It finally went live today. There were a lot of duct issues in the area. All the telephone poles now have the CF gear on them. I think I'm the first person who went live. Community Fibre's support was pretty much awol during all of this.

Yesterday the original installation team (2 really great guys) came around and attached a light source to the cable in my place. They then spent the day finding places where they needed to join it. They came back today and continued the work. I just got back after lunch and they said there's a lot more work to do and so it won't be completed.

About 10 mins later they knocked on my door and said they may have found a way to do it. Some tests in the area suggested things should be fine and they thought there was a power issue on the pole. They got someone to check it and, sure enough, it was fine.

Someone from CF came around too and they processed my account details etc in the backend. They gave me an Adtran 621i which went live about an hour later. Plugged it in and have the full 1Gig up and down.

Overall summary:
1) Really great installers. Every time they came around they kept me updated on things
2) Construction workers on the road very neat with the job they did. Lots of ducts needed to be cleared around the area but the work done was very tidy. None of the shoddy work that the likes of Kelly Comms do
3) CommunityFibre support was quite poor though. They didn't seem to have a clue what was going on. The person who did come around today was great though which leaves a much better impression of the business.

Overall, very happy so far. Speeds are identical to my Vaioni line which is the main thing.

In reply to a post by roundrobin:

Overall, very happy so far. Speeds are identical to my Vaioni line which is the main thing.

How’s your single thread performance compared to x6 on CF?

That’s the one doubt in my mind from @ft247 summary review. Are they oversubscribing-ish on some of their backhaul. Gig leased line definitely spoils you, but at an obvious cost.

Here's what I have. I literally just dropped the Vaioni router to a dropoff point so I can't show a comparison with that unfortunately.

roundrobin's single thread results are better than mine were, but he is on a business contract I believe?

I won't be able to test again on TBB until Sunday - but a Samknows box is running.

Upload multithread is a flat line over 7 days, 940Mbit with very occasional 935Mbit results.
Upload single thread is fairly random between 650 and 941. Very little correlation to time of day.

Download multithread is not quite as flat, but generally in the 890-940 range with two results out of a week in the 750 range.
Download single thread results are more consistent than upload single thread, in the range 650-700Mbit but never higher.

It is perfectly acceptable for my use, but I'd like to know what is causing the graph to deviate from its flat 940Mbit line. It won't be local oversubscription as I was one of the first in the door and it's XGS-PON. Perhaps there is limited cabinet backhaul to THN as they're not offering the 3Gbit product in my area.

What also doesn't make sense is download single thread never breaking 700Mbit, even in the small hours of the morning at any point during the 3 weeks I've had the service.

The other thing I want to test is simultaneous upload and download, but I need a better router before I can tax it in a VPN configuration.