FTTP - What happens about your landline

FTTP is coming to where I live within the next few months. All well and good but what happens about your physical landline? I wonder if anyone can answer these questions:
1) Are you obliged to have a landline?
2) Do you continue to connect your wireless phone to the Master Socket or some thing else?
3) Is it necessary to change the router?
4) Can you switch to FTTP if in contract with a FTTC service provider?
3) If you have a fixed IP, will it change?

1. No
2. Only if you have an active landline on the copper. Alternatively sign up with a third party VoIP provider and use a compatible DECT base or an ATA. Or signup with BT and use this Fibre Voice Access on their hub
3. Depends on your existing router and whom you contract FTTP with - provide more info
4. No you will need to start a new contract
5. Yes, you have no claim over an allocated fixed IP

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

FTTP is coming to where I live within the next few months. All well and good but what happens about your physical landline? I wonder if anyone can answer these questions:
1) Are you obliged to have a landline?
2) Do you continue to connect your wireless phone to the Master Socket or some thing else?
3) Is it necessary to change the router?
4) Can you switch to FTTP if in contract with a FTTC service provider?
3) If you have a fixed IP, will it change?

The answers depend on who your current FTTC provider is, and who you will pick as your new FTTP provider (if different).

Regarding the voice service and copper connection to the master socket:

- Some providers only provide FTTP without voice (Talktalk)
- Some providers only provide FTTP with voice via a port on the router (Sky)
- Some providers offer FTTP with or without voice depending on what you order (Zen, BT - although the BT option for FTTP without voice is somewhat hidden)
- BT may choose to provide the voice part through the router ("digital voice") or continue to provide it as analogue service on the copper, at their option. It varies.

Regarding the router:

- Some providers make it complicated to work with your own router (esp. Sky)
- Most providers' digital voice service won't work unless you use their router

If you need to keep your voice number, you may be better off migrating it to a third-party VOIP provider, although you may need to buy either a new VOIP wireless base station or an ATA.

Regarding static IPs: few "consumer" providers offer static IPs anyway. Zen do. Plusnet do, but they don't offer FTTP. If you want this, then look at Zen, or one of the more business-oriented providers, e.g. AAISP, Aquiss, Cerberus, Talktalk Business, BT Business. If you change provider, your static IP will definitely change (it belongs to the provider, you can't take it with you).

The other thing you should consider is speed. Pretty much everyone offers FTTP speeds up to 150M, but if you want faster speeds (300/500/900), your choices become more limited.

Thank you, I really do appreciate your very comprehensive response.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

FTTP is coming to where I live within the next few months. All well and good but what happens about your physical landline? I wonder if anyone can answer these questions:
1) Are you obliged to have a landline?
2) Do you continue to connect your wireless phone to the Master Socket or some thing else?
3) Is it necessary to change the router?
4) Can you switch to FTTP if in contract with a FTTC service provider?

I've literally just gone down this road. As mentioned above, it all depends on your existing and 'new' ISP.
1. No. The fibre can do it all. This might be of some help
2. My new ISP supplied a 'free' WiFi router which has a socket on it marked VOIP. Apart from the fibre connection (very thin) it looks just like any other router with the usual mix of lan ports, dual band WiFi capabilities. For a one off payment of £15 they would port my existing number over but given I tend to use a mobile for calls I still haven't said I want it yet. One thing they did say was not to cancel (cease) my existing line until I decided whether I wanted my number or not. Once ceased its gone.
3. As above my ISP supplied a WiFi router as part of installing FTTP but there is nothing to stop me adding equipment to it via the Lan ports. .
4. If you have an existing contract, some ISP's might offer to buy out the remaining part of your contract - depends on how long is left on it. (mine did but I'm out of contract already). Again it depends on who you go with.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

business-oriented providers, e.g. Aquiss

The only thing I would say, is we equally aim at both consumers and business, with a 60/40 split towards consumers

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

2. Only if you have an active landline on the copper. Alternatively sign up with a third party VoIP provider and use a compatible DECT base or an ATA. Or signup with BT and use this Fibre Voice Access on their hub

This depends on your ISP. Sky, for example, switch you to their VoIP service unless you have something that requires a landline such as a monitored alarm. They've actually started asking the questions now when you upgrade from FTTC to FTTP rather than automatically switching you.

I’m sure there’s all sorts of nuances, but the question put was simply “ 2) Do you continue to connect your wireless phone to the Master Socket or some thing else?”

The answer to that must be “no” as the master socket has absolutely no connection (literally or figuratively) to the FTTP service - if indeed a voice service desired and thus is being delivered over the fibre - VoIP .

Keeping the copper line running for the other stuff you mention is a completely different matter. Although in reality all existing legacy analogue services could be enabled to run VoIP with an ATA just like an ordinary phone.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

I’m sure there’s all sorts of nuances, but the question put was simply “ 2) Do you continue to connect your wireless phone to the Master Socket or some thing else?”

The answer to that must be “no” as the master socket has absolutely no connection (literally or figuratively) to the FTTP service

Not necessarily: the voice service can still be provided over the copper in parallel to the FTTP service.

Specifically: if you are with BT, and you upgrade to FTTP (not the data-only variant), some users have reported that BT keep the voice service on the copper line, and other users have been switched to digital voice.

Hence the answer is still "it depends".

Over time, I'd expect BT to move fully towards the digital voice option, in support of the PSTN switch-off which is still planned for 2025 AFAIK.

Fair enough. The exception (for the time being anyhow) being only BT and then only in certain cases. By no means the way it works with any other service provider... that is after all the whole point of FTTP.

Whey my service was installed on Wednesday - including digital voice, they still provided a copper pair from cabinet to premises. It will not be used, but is there.

Sure. If the OP had said what provider they are currently on, and what provider they intend to use for FTTP, it would have been a lot easier to answer!

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Sure. If the OP had said what provider they are currently on, and what provider they intend to use for FTTP, it would have been a lot easier to answer!

Yep, that it would

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Sure. If the OP had said what provider they are currently on, and what provider they intend to use for FTTP, it would have been a lot easier to answer!

Yep, that it would

My question could not included specifics because it was to provide early answers for 72 residencies of a community lead project which has gone into the planning stage with surveys scheduled to happen in around two months time and the service going live around this time next year. A mixed bag of service providers are used by those in this project scheme

Now when I raised the questions I was under the impression that the ONT would be where your phone service would come from through an internal ATA which seems a sensible arrangement as the "landline" would still work because of the installed battery pack in the ONT.

Certainly when my son moved into a new build house last year, that was where the phone service was available from although he doesn't use it as he has a VoIP service provided by his company and a different provider for all domestic phone calls. The downside being if there is a power cut, all communications are lost. I have suggested that he plugged a basic phone into the ONT emergency use and certainly with Voipfone, all calls can be diverted automatically to that number. Within a week that basic phone was disconnected from the ONT because of the high number of nuisance calls.

I am no longer sure if a phone service will be available at all from the ONT come a years time as much is said in this thread about a voice service being supplied from the router with the attendant issue of no service when a power cut occurs. It seems to me that if a phone service is always required to be available, then an UPS pack would be required.

Some WAGS might say what's wrong with using a mobile instead. Well the mobile signal in the locality is so week that most residents are either using Wifi Calling or a Sure Signal Device. No power, no phone service whichever way you turn.

Trying to nail down a VoIP provider who offers anywhere near a decent call package is difficult even for just 01/02/03/05 numbers and adding in true mobile numbers, really pushes up the monthly charge.

I would really welcome the discussion in this thread to continue to cover the points I have made above..

Remember to claim back the credit from your previous ISP!

This is relevant to all service provider changes, though this happened to me moving from BT copper service to Truespeed FTTH.

When my phone number ported from BT to Truespeed, BT disabled my online account. I had to ring their call centre to track down my account then claim the credit back. £28 back to me.

I'm not sure if it would be possible for you to consider using something like dialpad or skype VOIP

Dialpads pricing is quite competitive £12 a month for unlimited calling with lots of options is quite good.
Ultimately if you have anyone in your community who is vulnerable they need to tell openreach as in the latest UK Digital Event which they hosted recently they said that they want to know about it. They said that in those cases they would supply a UPS for the ONT however if you use a VOIP service they would still need to purchase UPS's which can cost anywhere from £50-£200 for a average user depending on what is connected and the load expected.

I use Skype VOIP as its free with my subscription to Office 365 as I get something like 80% off yearly however as you stated if they can use wifi calling this would be the best option but they would need a UPS for the router and ONT to ensure that they can call.
The other options are that residents take a look at OFCOM coverage checker which is impartial to all providers and gives accurate coverage, I can confirm this as I have sim cards from all providers and the data they give matches what i actually get where i am.

However when i did some reading it is possible to link skype to a VOIP phone however when considering the costs its not worth it and a provider like BT or even going for talktalk and using wifi calling would work out cheaper in the long run as you don't need to pay for two phone systems.


I am going to tell you that personally if i get a choice of cheaper VM with a phone line or Openreach FTTP I will go to FTTP and just use WiFi calling as I get bad coverage as concrete walls and 3/4G does not go well together.
I also thought about getting a phone sim for an old iphone or something like that to just leave permanently at the house something like lebara mobile (note I'm not aware if WiFi calling is available) as it costs something like £3 a month with current deals so seems more viable.

Its ultimately your decision what to tell them but I would invest in a UPS take a look at ofcom checker to see what's available considering USwitch sim prices and if those sims have WiFI calling then that would be what i would go for as it just seems like the best option but i'll let the others tell you what they think but those are my thoughts.

In reply to a post by RR_The_IT_Guy:

The other options are that residents take a look at OFCOM coverage checker which is impartial to all providers and gives accurate coverage, I can confirm this as I have sim cards from all providers and the data they give matches what i actually get where i am.

More inaccurate information from this poster.

As far as I am aware, the data for the OFCOM checker is supplied by the mobile phone providers. Correspondence with OFCOM has brought no rebuttal of that belief. There is obviously a vested interest in the network suppliers painting a rosier picture than the reality. At our home location O2 and Vodaphone show on the OFCOM checker as giving good coverage for voice outside while EE and Three are shown as potentially having problems on both 4G and No 4G tabs. On days when the atmospheric conditions favour mobile signals there is a chance that an O2 signal can be picked up outside. There is no record of any of the other signals (which come from a different mast) reaching any phone at our postcode. The checker also shows all networks as giving a good signal for data and enhanced data. Again that vastly overstates the coverage. In fairness all providers indicate that reception of voice or data indoors is unlikely.

This point has been raised with our MP and with Dame Sharon White when she was Head of OFCOM without any meaningful response and the OFCOM site retains information of dubious validity.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Now when I raised the questions I was under the impression that the ONT would be where your phone service would come from through an internal ATA which seems a sensible arrangement as the "landline" would still work because of the installed battery pack in the ONT.

Certainly when my son moved into a new build house last year, that was where the phone service was available from although he doesn't use it as he has a VoIP service provided by his company and a different provider for all domestic phone calls. The downside being if there is a power cut, all communications are lost. I have suggested that he plugged a basic phone into the ONT emergency use and certainly with Voipfone, all calls can be diverted automatically to that number. Within a week that basic phone was disconnected from the ONT because of the high number of nuisance calls.

I am no longer sure if a phone service will be available at all from the ONT come a years time as much is said in this thread about a voice service being supplied from the router with the attendant issue of no service when a power cut occurs. It seems to me that if a phone service is always required to be available, then an UPS pack would be required.

The first couple of generations of ONT did have an inbuilt ATA and were fitted with a BBU but this is no longer the case. The Fibre Voice Access (FVA) service was only ever used by BT, no other ISPs decided to use it, and it is no longer available for new supply so even if you have an ONT which supports it you cannot order a service to make use of it. BBUs have not been fitted for a year or so now, and the latest ONTs have done away with the connector for BBU monitoring.

To maintain phone service during a mains outage will require a UPS to power the ONT, router, ATA (if not incorporated into the router) and phone (if cordless rather than hard wired).

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

As far as I am aware, the data for the OFCOM checker is supplied by the mobile phone providers.

The Ofcom "about this checker" states:

This map uses signal level predictions provided by the four UK mobile network operators. Ofcom has tested actual coverage in various locations around the UK, and used the results to set the thresholds for voice calls used on the map. We will continue to conduct testing, work with the mobile operators and analyse consumer feedback with a view to improving the accuracy of the map. The map may differ from those provided by the network operators; see the FAQ below for reasons why.

So they can be different, and in the case of a "not spot" then all 4 networks have agreed with Ofcom in late 2020 to work together to solve. Unfortunately due to various building materials, you have to check for "not spot" outdoors, rather than indoors.

Do you have a rough region of this not spot? Postcode would be great, but for many people its too detailed. Thanks.

Edited by jchamier (Wed 31-Mar-21 16:14:40)

I might have confused the ofcom checker with the nperf data or potentially rootmetrics.
The reason i thought it wasn't data supplied is because i have checked the 4 Mobile providers maps against the ofcom map and ofcom's data is more realistic to what the providers state. I have checked this at a few locations with sims from each and the ofcom checker is always correct in the village and town areas i checked. While the areas stated to have signal by say vodafone did not so there must be some independence or data analytics from other sources as otherwise it would not be possible for ofcom to know there is no signal while vodafone state there is, the same applies to 3 Mobile, who over promise and say 4G available while when i check on ofcom there is barely 3G let alone 4G.
I can't believe that the data is exactly from operators there is definitely some tweaking based on my experiments.

To add to that

Government to give Ofcom the powers to independently verify coverage, with local areas given “annual speed and reliability health checks” using on-the-ground testing.

So there is independent checks

My area have also released the following statement

In Cambridgeshire & Peterborough Combined Authority, the Connecting Cambridgeshire programme has drawn up a ‘Top 20’ list of priority areas identified by comparing detailed local mobile connectivity surveys commissioned by Cambridgeshire County Council with the latest Ofcom mobile coverage data. The list of partial not-spots has been shared with mobile network operators for collaborative action, following a summit convened by Mayor James Palmer.

Edited by RR_The_IT_Guy (Wed 31-Mar-21 17:00:35)

The new ONT's no longer have ATA ports for voice.

OpenReach stopped offering voice via the ONT (called FVA) in April 2020.
Only BT ever used FVA but it can no longer be ordered even if you have an older ONT.

Only customers with an active FVA service activated prior to April 2020 can continue to use it.
If they ever migrate they will never be able to return to using FVA.

OpenReach don't want to be involved in providing voice any more and have moved that responsibility to the ISP.

The likes of BT and Sky require you to connect your phone to their Broadband Hub to use Voice over FTTP (and FTTC for some customers, eventually all their customers).

Some providers will continue to provide some customers with voice via any existing copper line.

It's very much provider specific.

Talktalk for example don't provide any voice service with FTTP.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Do you have a rough region of this not spot? Postcode would be great, but for many people its too detailed. Thanks.

I'll PM you detailed information if you have a reason to need it. Broad brush is that I live in rural Northumberland.

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

I'll PM you detailed information if you have a reason to need it. Broad brush is that I live in rural Northumberland.

No, I'm just curious, don't need detailed. Northumberland is good enough to look at the maps - thanks!

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

The new ONT's no longer have ATA ports for voice.

OpenReach stopped offering voice via the ONT (called FVA) in April 2020.
Only BT ever used FVA but it can no longer be ordered even if you have an older ONT.

Only customers with an active FVA service activated prior to April 2020 can continue to use it.
If they ever migrate they will never be able to return to using FVA.

OpenReach don't want to be involved in providing voice any more and have moved that responsibility to the ISP.

The likes of BT and Sky require you to connect your phone to their Broadband Hub to use Voice over FTTP (and FTTC for some customers, eventually all their customers).

Some providers will continue to provide some customers with voice via any existing copper line.

It's very much provider specific.

Talktalk for example don't provide any voice service with FTTP.

An interesting take on what the voice landscape will look like, certainly by the end of the year. But surely there will always be a demand for a voice service without the provision of a broadband service from say those that have never used the internet nor intend to and lifts for emergency use in entrapment circumstances. What's the answer there?

I take it then, there is no longer a battery pack in an ONT? So for some of us we are going to need to serious look at how we can maintain a service during a power cut. That's what a UPS units are for; anyone with suggestions as to appropriate makes and models to meet this need?

Many will not have routers that current have the provision of a socket for a voice service, so when our great day arrives when FTTP can be ordered, there is going to be the expense of at least the postage to be paid for a replacement router and for some the cost of the router as well. There is also going to be some who will be seeking a VoIP provider. My God, chaos is going to reign supreme for a while.

What happening end of year? Armageddon? Didn't we just do that 😂

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

But surely there will always be a demand for a voice service without the provision of a broadband service from say those that have never used the internet nor intend to

To meet this demand, Openreach are providing a 0.5 Mbps data service (as SOGEA or FTTP). Rental is approximately the same as the current cost of a voice line.
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/02/openre...

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

and lifts for emergency use in entrapment circumstances. What's the answer there?

That's up to the lift company and building operator: they can use existing building Internet connectivity for VoIP, or they can use a mobile SIM, or some combination. Ditto for alarm circuits.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

I take it then, there is no longer a battery pack in an ONT?

Correct. I got mine installed in Aug 2019, and although the ONT outer casing has space for a BBU, the engineer said they were no longer being supplied.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

So for some of us we are going to need to serious look at how we can maintain a service during a power cut. That's what a UPS units are for

Yes. For "vulnerable" customers, the ISP is supposed to make provision for this.

If you live in an area where power cuts are rare, you might not bother.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Many will not have routers that current have the provision of a socket for a voice service, so when our great day arrives when FTTP can be ordered, there is going to be the expense of at least the postage to be paid for a replacement router and for some the cost of the router as well.

You always get a new router with a new contract. It's annoying and wasteful, but there you go. Even if you're not going to use it, you have to take it.

The cost of the router is buried into the cost of your rental over the period of the contract, as well as the more significant cost of the Openreach installation charge.

(Of course, this means that the cost of service should go *down* at the end of the contract period, since you've paid off those items, but in practice it almost always goes *up*)

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

There is also going to be some who will be seeking a VoIP provider. My God, chaos is going to reign supreme for a while.

Those people who know what a VoIP provider is, probably won't be too worried. And those who don't, will use whatever their ISP provides.

Long term: decoupling voice from the line, so that you can change broadband provider without affecting your voice service, is probably a good thing overall.

Well explained.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Long term: decoupling voice from the line, so that you can change broadband provider without affecting your voice service, is probably a good thing overall.

I completely agree. Much the same way that email has been decoupled. Voice is 'just' another service just as portable in reality.

The same trend is befalling TV and the once ubiquitous pay tv bundles...as the generational and exponetial shift to streaming takes a bigger and bigger bite out of old-fashioned ways of [producing]. delivering (and consuming) media

Edited by Pheasant (Wed 31-Mar-21 21:34:08)

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Yes. For "vulnerable" customers, the ISP is supposed to make provision for this.

If you live in an area where power cuts are rare, you might not bother.

The provision OFCOM is expecting the ISP to make is only at a very basic level. Their policy positioning ptatement "The Future of Fixed Telephony Services" published in February 2019 (on-line here) states:

2.23 In summary, the principles state that:

•Providers should have at least one solution available that enables access to emergency services for a minimum of one hour in the event of a power outage in the premises;

This is frighteningly inadequate in areas prone to power cuts not just for those with no mobile signal but even for those in areas where there is a mobile phone signal as the masts are liable to lose service in the power cut so all communication would be lost.

In the last 12 months we have had two power outages, one of 8 hours and 10 minutes, the other of 11 hours and 45 minutes. Towards the end of the first cut an ambulance had to be called for one of the residents after about 6 hours of the outage so 5 hours after OFCOM is expecting the ISP to supply contact.

In the overall scheme of things there will probably only be a minority of people who are at this level of risk of losing service but I fear that those people are being put in potential danger if current policies are maintained.

An extended battery back-up unit to cover the ONT/router/etc wouldn't be beyond the wit of man. Just DC-DC conversion/output no need for a mains (inverter) UPS.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

An extended battery back-up unit to cover the ONT/router/etc wouldn't be beyond the wit of man. Just DC-DC conversion/output no need for a mains (inverter) UPS.

Not beyond the wit but possibly beyond the purse of some living on minimum wage or state pension.

You could potentially get them for under £30 depending where you look.
This is an example of a mini DC 12V UPS UPS

Example UPS 2

I do get your point about budgeting, but Openreach did state that those who are Vulnerable are eligible for one for free for the ONT as long as Openreach Know about it however the router is another matter.

Edited by RR_The_IT_Guy (Thu 01-Apr-21 17:52:18)

Putting fibre to one side, What’s your DNO doing about the extended power cuts?12 hours isn’t normal or in any way acceptable, especially if there are older or vulnerable folks that rely on service. Is your MP aware of this?

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Putting fibre to one side, What’s your DNO doing about the extended power cuts?12 hours isn’t normal or in any way acceptable, especially if there are older or vulnerable folks that rely on service. Is your MP aware of this?

While 12 hours isn't acceptable it is not unusual when we have an outage as it is normally caused by something bringing the overhead supply down and it takes that long to clear the mess, possibly bring in a new pole from some distance away and then rebuild. The DNO do have a planning notice in to do some improvement work on the overhead line supplying our community; the improvement appears to be replacing the overhead conductor with lighter aluminium so that they can cut back on the cost of replacing the life-expired overhead infrastructure. However, it will still be overhead line so no less at risk from the weather-related events which cause most of the outages. In fairness they have been improving the resilience of the supply as we had outages virtually monthly not so many years ago. Our MP lives in another rural part of the county which will have similar problems so will be well aware of the situation.

In reply to a post by RR_The_IT_Guy:

You could potentially get them for under £30 depending where you look.
This is an example of a mini DC 12V UPS UPS

Example UPS 2

I do get your point about budgeting, but Openreach did state that those who are Vulnerable are eligible for one for free for the ONT as long as Openreach Know about it however the router is another matter.

Both of those examples would give a run time similar to the old 4 x AA NiMh of the old Openreach BBU - which runs the ONT for a little over an hour. NiMh tend to degrade in charge holding capacity if they're not regularly fully cycled, so the actual real backup time could be far reduced.

Anything 18650 based will be much better, but needs a far higher cell count to get a longer backup time.

If blackouts are exceptionally long, something like this 50,000 mAh 5/12/20v power pack would run an ONT + Router + ATA/DECT base for 20+ hours, but not cheap:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07CZDX2ZG

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Putting fibre to one side, What’s your DNO doing about the extended power cuts?12 hours isn’t normal or in any way acceptable, especially if there are older or vulnerable folks that rely on service. Is your MP aware of this?

While 12 hours isn't acceptable it is not unusual when we have an outage as it is normally caused by something bringing the overhead supply down and it takes that long to clear the mess, possibly bring in a new pole from some distance away and then rebuild. The DNO do have a planning notice in to do some improvement work on the overhead line supplying our community; the improvement appears to be replacing the overhead conductor with lighter aluminium so that they can cut back on the cost of replacing the life-expired overhead infrastructure. However, it will still be overhead line so no less at risk from the weather-related events which cause most of the outages. In fairness they have been improving the resilience of the supply as we had outages virtually monthly not so many years ago. Our MP lives in another rural part of the county which will have similar problems so will be well aware of the situation.

We're on overhead 11kV in Suffolk - we have outages, but definitely not as severe as yours.

In any event multiple 12 hour long unplanned outages are outrageous and I would be making it a mission to chew the ear of the MP to get the DNO to resolve it asap.

Edited by Pheasant (Thu 01-Apr-21 19:59:21)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

If blackouts are exceptionally long, something like this 50,000 mAh 5/12/20v power pack would run an ONT + Router + ATA/DECT base for 20+ hours, but not cheap:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07CZDX2ZG

Capacities in mAh can be misleading. Elsewhere in the page it says the capacity is 185Wh. This means it's 50,000mAh at 3.7V; higher voltages will have correspondingly lower mAh capacities.

Still, if your router, ONT and ATA are 5W each, and the DC-DC converter is efficient, you could get about 12 hours.

Huawei ONT is less than 2W typically.
Something like an N300A IP DECT base is 1.2W in standby.
Routers can vary obviously, but lets say for example a MikroTik RB750...thats a max of 2W
So just over 5W for the lot @ 185 Wh gives around 35 hours run time.

The hEX Lite has exceptionally low power consumption - a good choice for this application, but probably not representative of what people are using. The hEX standard is 5W. Neither of these has wifi, which probably accounts for the low power draw. The hAP ac3 (with wireless) has 12W max draw without attachments.

BT Smart Hub 2 is between 8.5W (idle) and 14W (in use), according to this:
https://community.bt.com/t5/BT-Fibre-broadband/Data-...

C’mon man I give you a solution for 35 hours standby for voice on FTTP and you give me...BT Smarthub 2!!!

Is this your idea of an April Fools joke 😎🤣😛

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

C’mon man I give you a solution for 35 hours standby for voice on FTTP and you give me...BT Smarthub 2!!!

Is this your idea of an April Fools joke 😎🤣😛

So what are we talking about here? The point at issue is the risk to residents (some on limited budgets) in areas which could well suffer significant power cuts and who will have the technology supplied by their ISP not the technologically aware people who frequent forums like this.

Edited by GonePostal (Thu 01-Apr-21 23:44:28)

The root of the problem is your DNO that can’t offer a service without 12 hour long outages. Pure and simple. That needs resolution before anything else.

Your ire is best directed at them and the folks that hold them to account, not casting about looking for an SP to provide you (presumably at no cost) an infinite backup solution that is for the vast majority of folks unwarranted and overkill.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

The root of the problem is your DNO that can’t offer a service without 12 hour long outages. Pure and simple. That needs resolution before anything else.

Your ire is best directed at them and the folks that hold them to account, not casting about looking for an SP to provide you (presumably at no cost) an infinite backup solution that is for the vast majority of folks unwarranted and overkill.

You must think that there is a considerable level of naivety and lack of awareness in communities other than your own. Of course the DNO is and has been under pressure for many years from local councils, County Council and MPs to improve the situation. They are gradually doing that as is evidenced by the reduction in the number of outages we have seen over the years, However, given the huge amount of overhead supply it would require the whole output of the magic money tree to be directed to one comparatively small area in national terms if our DNO were to underground the supply which is the most effective way to reduce the number of outages. Even if that did become policy do you have any reason to assume that it could be finished before the switch off of telecomms copper? If I do have any ire, it is more likely to be directed at people who are happy to come up with flip rather than helpful answers with no knowledge or understanding of the local circumstances.

You need to remove that chip off your shoulder. Have a Good Friday.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

You need to remove that chip off your shoulder. Have a Good Friday.

You do see the irony about flip rather than helpful?

I’ve provided you a helpful technical solution. Other than my joke comment above to candlerb, I was being sincere and not ‘flip’ as you put it.

Now the basic reality of the situation is that there is *no* way any SP is going to provide a standard 12 hour+ backup solution for FTTP - unless they are forced to. I’m not aware that they are.

Indeed Openreach withdrew their BBU solution in 2019, as it happens shortly after I had mine installed. This would be no good to you anyway as it only protects the ONT itself for around an hour. Any other equipment needed for voice over fibre (router and/or ATA or DEct base etc) is not covered.

Other folks including myself put up their own UPS typically to cover outages that last up to an hour or two at most. Beyond that it is taken that the utility will have returned or another source of backup power (generator) is available.

That’s the harsh reality.

The technical solution I described above (a DC UPS) is really nothing more than a slightly more elegant version of a car battery with main charger powering the ONT and router, etc directly at low voltage 5/12 or 20V DC. This is really just an expansion of the BBU idea and is technically feasible and not extraordinarily expensive not difficult. It’s also the only readily available off the shelf way you’re going to approach or exceed 12 hours backup.

What you choose to do with this is up to you. Shoot the messenger. I don’t really give a stuff.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Indeed Openreach withdrew their BBU solution in 2019, as it happens shortly after I had mine installed. This would be no good to you anyway as it only protects the ONT itself for around an hour.

Exactly, and the reason for dropping the BBU is that they decided to stop using the FVA port on the ONT. When you were able to get a telephony service with *only* the ONT running, then the BBU had some value.

But now you'll always need at least two devices: an ONT, and a router which provides the voice service (e.g. via built-in ATA or DECT, or wifi to a wifi-phone). There's no point powering one without the other.

For the vast majority of people, who have reliable power and/or indoor mobile coverage, this won't make any difference. Mobile coverage is improving all the time, too.

Of course, there's still a minority who will prefer to have some sort of backup power for their Internet and/or land-based voice service. As has been pointed out, there are solutions for that.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

But now you'll always need at least two devices: an ONT, and a router which provides the voice service (e.g. via built-in ATA or DECT, or wifi to a wifi-phone). There's no point powering one without the other.

For the vast majority of people, who have reliable power and/or indoor mobile coverage, this won't make any difference. Mobile coverage is improving all the time, too.

I think we’re in agreement and I apologise for my jokey barb above, but it was in jest (and I don’t think you cared anyhow 😎)

The only other kludge with just an ONT running on BBU backup is to then connect a laptop (on battery) running a soft phone client. Other than that I’m out of ideas.

Is that the original copper pair, or did they fit a combined copper pair and fibre drop wire?

Cheers!

In reply to a post by candlerb:

For the vast majority of people, who have reliable power and/or indoor mobile coverage, this won't make any difference. Mobile coverage is improving all the time, too.

What is worth noting is that in my last power cut (about 4 years ago) the local mast for EE and Three went out as well, and the next nearest were overloaded, couldn't make calls or get internet. My work phone on Vodafone using a mast over the dual carriageway wasn't affected and kept working.

I went shopping as it was cold

In reply to a post by Ancient_Mariner:

Is that the original copper pair, or did they fit a combined copper pair and fibre drop wire?

Cheers!

Combined drop wire, shotgun style with fibre in one and copper pair + strain wire in the second

I wonder if that's what OR will do for us... We're with BT but I've read that sometimes they offer digital voice, sometimes not. So, if not I would assume the phone still goes via the original master socket and the FTTP via the new ONT?

Don't know - I went digital voice and whether all have a copper pair, no idea. As he said at the time, mine was the only 160m cable they had.

Ah yes, I forgot that digital voice can work over copper, as some places will still be reliant on ADSL/VDSL when analogue gets retired...

If you have had FTTP installed in your home in 2021, I would welcome pictures of your installation inside your home and immediately on the outside of the building. In addition I would like to ask these questions please:
1) Any issues with your desired choice of location for the ONT?
2) If using your own router, what configuration was necessary?
3) How did you decide which speed to opt for?
4) Did you change provider and any consequence of doing so?
5) Any issues with your email address?
6) Did you give any consideration to having a UPS and if so what hardware did you select?
7) Were you obliged to go over digital voice (VoIP) for a voice service?
8) What contract period was you tied into?
9) May we know your ISP please

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

If you have had FTTP installed in your home in 2021, I would welcome pictures of your installation inside your home and immediately on the outside of the building. In addition I would like to ask these questions please:

-----
If you can picture a standard Openreach 5C telephone master socket, I have a white box about the same size but half its depth situated directly below it (its where I asked for it to be put). The fibre cable connects to the bottom (via a socket) and then over to the router. Outside is just like any normal telephone supply line off a pole.
1) Any issues with your desired choice of location for the ONT?
If I'd wanted it put upstairs they would have put it there. But my installation is geared to what works best for me

2) If using your own router, what configuration was necessary?
They supplied the WiFi router and my existing was just plugged in. I do have another which is still connected to the existing phone line and that will need it configuration changed when that gets used.

3) How did you decide which speed to opt for?
Mainly money! 500/500 unlimited was £39 a month. 1Gb/1Gb would cost £60. I just couldn't justify paying the extra cost for our usage. As it is with all 4 people using the net for streaming, Youtube, for instance, offers me 4K content and connects at anywhere between 120Mb to 250Mb/s (info gained from Stats for Nerds!).

4) Did you change provider and any consequence of doing so?
I will be. Zen, unfortunately (no complaints with them whatsoever), will be going. A local ISP is providing the FTTP. So far no consequences whatsoever - I'm out of contract with Zen. And the Fibre is working 100%

5) Any issues with your email address?
I never use ISP provided email addresses. I have a couple of my own domains email addresses plus a raft of hotmail etc. I just use them as normal.

6) Did you give any consideration to having a UPS and if so what hardware did you select?
Being rural I already have a couple of UPS's. Nothing worse than getting the router to die on FTTC. Anything to stop DLM possibly kicking in. With FTTP it'll still be handy to have the router on a UPS. Various makes: One, APC.

7) Were you obliged to go over digital voice (VoIP) for a voice service?
No. I could go over to VOIP or continue to use the existing (at my extra cost) telephone line. I tend to use a mobile anyway. Far more convenient.

8) What contract period was you tied into?
Two years, with no price increase in that time

9) May we know your ISP please
QuantumAir Fibre - they tend to do Lincolnshire anyway

In reply to a post by jchamier:

What is worth noting is that in my last power cut (about 4 years ago) the local mast for EE and Three went out as well, and the next nearest were overloaded, couldn't make calls or get internet. My work phone on Vodafone using a mast over the dual carriageway wasn't affected and kept working.

This is not as bad as you assume. If you had tried to make an emergency call, the "overloaded" cells would have found you capacity.

Surely for point 3, only you would know what is required.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

If you have had FTTP installed in your home in 2021, I would welcome pictures of your installation inside your home and immediately on the outside of the building. In addition I would like to ask these questions please:
1) Any issues with your desired choice of location for the ONT?
2) If using your own router, what configuration was necessary?
3) How did you decide which speed to opt for?
4) Did you change provider and any consequence of doing so?
5) Any issues with your email address?
6) Did you give any consideration to having a UPS and if so what hardware did you select?
7) Were you obliged to go over digital voice (VoIP) for a voice service?
8) What contract period was you tied into?
9) May we know your ISP please

Specifically are you asking about Openreach FTTP or *any* FTTP service? The differences between Openreach and other AltNets may be small or considerable in certain ways and not necessarily directly comparable.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

If you have had FTTP installed in your home in 2021, I would welcome pictures of your installation inside your home and immediately on the outside of the building. In addition I would like to ask these questions please:
1) Any issues with your desired choice of location for the ONT?
2) If using your own router, what configuration was necessary?
3) How did you decide which speed to opt for?
4) Did you change provider and any consequence of doing so?
5) Any issues with your email address?
6) Did you give any consideration to having a UPS and if so what hardware did you select?
7) Were you obliged to go over digital voice (VoIP) for a voice service?
8) What contract period was you tied into?
9) May we know your ISP please

Specifically are you asking about Openreach FTTP or *any* FTTP service? The differences between Openreach and other AltNets may be small or considerable in certain ways and not necessarily directly comparable.

We have a community project which is going on nicely with surveyors coming next week. There are 74 properties in the scheme and as you can imagine end users choice of ISP could be anything. I am one of the points of contact with the residents to make sure everything goes through smoothly, it was bad enough guiding them through the pledge stages to ensure that they all received a voucher. The value exceeded handsomely the target set by Openreach mainly because of a large number of business vouchers issued. There were pledges from 83% of the properties; we were never going to get 100% because 5 properties do not use the internet at all.

I simple want to be clued up enough to be able to assist anyone with an issue especially as quite a few have in mind "spending" their vouchers with another ISP. We are told that once FTTP is available to order, then we must use the vouchers with 10 days. Of course I have researched the Internet extensively for answers but it seems what was the vogue of how things were done does not necessarily equate what will happen in September or shortly afterwards.

I understand that what you get from one ISP won't necessarily be replicated by another ISP and there are probably out there some ISPs that are best avoided. So bearing that in mind anything that you feel I should know about would be most welcomed.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

Surely for point 3, only you would know what is required.

No. I might be flushed enough to go for a speed that sounds great blissfully unaware that me existing router can't handle the higher speeds.

In reply to a post by hoopla:

In reply to a post by jchamier:

What is worth noting is that in my last power cut (about 4 years ago) the local mast for EE and Three went out as well, and the next nearest were overloaded, couldn't make calls or get internet. My work phone on Vodafone using a mast over the dual carriageway wasn't affected and kept working.

This is not as bad as you assume. If you had tried to make an emergency call, the "overloaded" cells would have found you capacity.

This thread contains a statement somewhere that NO calls were possible including 999.

Then purchase a suitable router. You shouldn't be limited by what you already own. Do we know what equipment you have?

I have a very old Dell Studio 1555 with only 11g wifi. Suitable for most surfing but large downloads require me to plug the ethernet cable in.

Vigor 2862Vac which you would have thought would be good enough but apparently only handles about 220mbps as its max. Probably OK for me so no point in upgrading hardware are subscriber to a speed that the router can't handle.

Sure, take a cheaper 80/20 or 150/30 FTTP service: it's more than enough for most households.

Most services these days come with an ISP-supplied router though.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

This thread contains a statement somewhere that NO calls were possible including 999.

If you're commenting on my experience, I did NOT try to make an emergency call.

Edited by jchamier (Tue 06-Apr-21 19:07:14)

Maybe a reference to a posting I made before the chip on my shoulder attracted attention (although I prefer to call it an aversion to people talking down to me). We have minimal mobile signal in our village (which depends a lot on atmospheric conditions). During a recent power outage an ambulance had to be called several hours after the start of the outage with no mobile signal in evidence. Without the copper landline and wired phone assistance could not have been called unless someone left the village to find a mobile signal.

As the copper network goes from stop sell to retirement, the expectation is that comms providers (ISPs basically) provide a solution for voice over fibre - (Voice over IP) - or as the case may be for the customer to organise this themselves with a third party VOIP provider.

Openreach no longer want to have direct responsibility for voice services. They no longer have a telephony port on the ONT and correspondingly they removed the battery backup unit from the ONT.

It’s quite a sea change in affairs. Fibre deployment is accelerating, copper is definitely going and with it ‘default’ voice service. I don’t really think the industry have communicated this very well up to now. They will definitely need to collectively step up...

https://player.vimeo.com/video/505623546

Openreach recently published the initial list of 220 areas that will begin copper stop sell from this June and presumably fully retired 2 years later. Let’s hope that as they move through that process and push to the next block of areas, plans are in place or get developed to support vulnerable customers or communities as fibre deployments accelerate and copper is retired.

Your particular situation with 12 hour power cuts, patchy mobile service made worse with atmospheric impairment sounds particularly challenging
though!

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

Without the copper landline and wired phone assistance could not have been called unless someone left the village to find a mobile signal.

I hope you (and other areas in similar situation) are supported by Ofcom so that the end of PSTN does not occur until sufficient provision is made. e.g. you get cellular coverage from two independent networks. I wonder if the lack of cellular coverage was caused by planning decisions in the last 2 decades, which has happened in a few villages around here.

Did they transition between the copper pair in the combined drop wire and internal copper with Gel Crimps in the CSP?

Cheers!

Left unconnected at my end. No intention to use copper.