G.fast start to fade away

Five ISPs GreenISP, Ghost Gaming ISP, Structured Communications, Trunk Network and Zen Internet has stopped sell G.fast. I expecting other ISP's are to follow shortly. Plusnet are the only ISP never release G.fast product.

G.fast ISP's still selling:

BT
EE
IDNet
Pulse8
UnchainedISP
TalkTalk
Sky
AAISP
Webmate ISP
Freeola
Cerberus

Edited by adslmax (Sat 04-Sep-21 02:46:43)

I doubt they'll stop selling until Openreach pull the plug on the technology which won't be for sometime/

They spent a large amount of money on this exercise, and won't stop until they recoup their losses.

It'll be like ADSL / LLU. Openreach will continue to support it, but the CPs will slowly move away over time as they lose interest in supporting it. When nobody's using it, it will go.

Of course, in any areas which are subject to copper stop-sell and switchoff (which is different from PSTN stop-sell and switchoff) this will also move any remaining G.Fast users to FTTP.

Exactly, and I'd say at this point that most people who want and are going to get G.Fast have it.

New G.Fast customers from now on will mostly be home movers and that's a small enough market that small ISPs will save money by simplifying their marketing, provisioning and issue of CPE etc.

There is nothing wrong with the technology when used on a good copper pair - short lines can achieve 330/50. The rollout is limited though, about 2.8m premises passed, and of those many won't achieve more than 160/30... so it's also a hard sell if competing with VM speeds or an altnet FTTP.

If a customer wants to go with Green ISP they'll probably go with them on 80/20. Seems like a very understandable business decision to discontinue G.Fast.

In reply to a post by ft247:

Exactly, and I'd say at this point that most people who want and are going to get G.Fast have it.

I cannot get it and its not because i live in the middle of nowhere.

Anyone know roughly how many active subscribers are on G.Fast? The premises passed figure capped out around 2.8 million or so, but if CPs are now stopping selling it…

Announcing its death is a be premature

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Anyone know roughly how many active subscribers are on G.Fast?

Yes, it's published in the BT quarterly results. The most recent is "First quarter to 30 June 2021" published here. Page 9 gives you network deployment and utilisation.

As of that date, G.Fast passed 2.831m properties and there were 234,000 total active G.Fast connections - up from 98,000 a year previously and 36,000 a year before that.

EDIT: for comparison FTTP has 5.165m properties passed and 1.086m takeup. FTTP footprint has been growing rapidly while G.Fast has been static, although 2 years ago they had similar coverage, at 2.166m G.Fast properties passed versus 1.514m FTTP.

Edited by candlerb (Sat 04-Sep-21 18:23:15)

In reply to a post by Jack_Hackett:

In reply to a post by ft247:

Exactly, and I'd say at this point that most people who want and are going to get G.Fast have it.

I cannot get it and its not because i live in the middle of nowhere.

If you can't get it now, then you're never going to get it, because the G.Fast rollout has been terminated. You'll have to wait for FTTP to arrive instead.

The point being made was: because the footprint of G.Fast has been more or less static for the last 2 years, most people who are have coverage and are interested in taking it up will have done so already. If they were waiting for their existing contract to expire before switching, they have had time to do so.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

G.Fast passed 2.831m properties and there were 234,000 total active G.Fast connections

Probably more connections than Green, Ghost, Structured, Trunk and Zen total customer numbers across all tech types added together. Probably way more than the total customer numbers on the CityFibre platform.

BT, Sky and TalkTalk are using GFast and that is the overwhelming majority of the market. It is proving reliable and the monthly speedtest results on TB show it regularly outperforming some of the forum's favourite provider's FTTP products.

Edited by FibreBubble (Sat 04-Sep-21 18:36:06)

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by Jack_Hackett:

In reply to a post by ft247:

Exactly, and I'd say at this point that most people who want and are going to get G.Fast have it.

I cannot get it and its not because i live in the middle of nowhere.

If you can't get it now, then you're never going to get it, because the G.Fast rollout has been terminated. You'll have to wait for FTTP to arrive instead.

The point being made was: because the footprint of G.Fast has been more or less static for the last 2 years, most people who are have coverage and are interested in taking it up will have done so already. If they were waiting for their existing contract to expire before switching, they have had time to do so.

Thanks for explaining, i wasn't aware G.Fast rollout had been terminated hence my comment, looks like i will stay on FTTC until i have no choice which according to this gives me 5 years at least.


The rollout of fibre across the UK has taken longer than anticipated but now BT Openreach has announced that 2026 is when they will start to close the copper network; they are going to have to work very hard to complete the implementation. Copper will be being phased out altogether from 2026.

BT Openreach are shutting down the copper wire ... - Agenda IT
https://agenda-it.co.uk/bt-openreach-are-shutting-do...

Edited by Jack_Hackett (Sat 04-Sep-21 20:15:21)

Thanks for the update. The take-up numbers were much lower than I’d anticipated.

Just read over on ISPreview that Openreach have announced a 20% price hike on G.Fast modems from 1 December.

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/09/openre...

I’d say they have little intention of “sweating” G.Fast anywhere near as long as ADSL. It might be lucky to reach double digits before being withdrawn completely. The signs like the news of the equipment charge hike, they are actively pushing CPs away from the service…

In reply to a post by Jack_Hackett:

The rollout of fibre across the UK has taken longer than anticipated but now BT Openreach has announced that 2026 is when they will start to close the copper network; they are going to have to work very hard to complete the implementation. Copper will be being phased out altogether from 2026.

I think that article isn't entirely accurate.

Firstly, the PSTN (i.e. analogue voice via telephone exchanges) is being closed completely. This is underway already in some areas and should be finished by 2025/2026. But this doesn't require removal of copper, rather a shift to VOIP, which can be digital voice over xDSL.

Openreach has also announced an *intention* to cover 25 million properties (roughly 80% of UK) with FTTP by December 2026. As the rollout proceeds, many areas will get it before then.

In any particular area, once FTTP reaches 75% penetration, they will implement a "stop sell" on new copper services in that area, followed by a withdrawal of active copper services. Obviously that only applies to the 75%+ who have FTTP available, not to those who have only copper services available to them.

So it's true to say that they will *start* to withdraw copper from 2026. The further out you go, the more vague their plans are. The final 20% will be much harder to cover, and you can expect copper in some parts of the network well into the 2030's.

In reply to a post by Jack_Hackett:

I cannot get it and its not because i live in the middle of nowhere.

I can't get it here either and again, not in the middle of nowhere, but looking at the price of it, I am not that bothered and also I have heard that it is reliable only if you live very close to the cabinet, someone I know of, was told they could get, they live about 250yards away from the cabinet, which I think is not far from the maximum distance, but they had a load of problem with it, so they went back to normal FTTC.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

Plusnet are the only ISP never release G.fast product.

Really? Look back to 2019 where you will find we openly said we were not going to launch a product lineup as our trials had shown disappointing outcomes in real world conditions. In fact, I even recall you commenting about our position at the time.

In reply to a post by aquiss:

we were not going to launch a product lineup as our trials had shown disappointing outcomes in real world conditions.

Out of interest how large was your trial?

In reply to a post by FibreBubble:

Probably more connections than Green, Ghost, Structured, Trunk and Zen total customer numbers across all tech types added together. Probably way more than the total customer numbers on the CityFibre platform.

BT, Sky and TalkTalk are using GFast and that is the overwhelming majority of the market. It is proving reliable and the monthly speedtest results on TB show it regularly outperforming some of the forum's favourite provider's FTTP products.

It would do. For now. There will come a tipping point when the info data as supplied is updated. Currently it is very suspect! For instance, although I have been with my new ISP (FTTP) for nigh on 6 months now, TBB still doesn't show it and as such, they don't even feature in any ISP list. I even contacted TBB but still no show. Funny how other test sites do show it.

I can tell you though, at 500/500Mb/s, it certainly out performs G.Fast by a long way. As more and more fibre gets added, its like a blizzard round these parts with fibre being rolled out everywhere, G.Fast and for that matter any copper based product will eventually fall by the wayside. Its not so different to when 56k modems ruled the roost, once they were everywhere...who uses a 56k modem now?

I think everyone is aware that FTTP deployment is growing and GFast deployment has stopped.

However, GFast connections are growing and take up is voluntary as opposed to a lot of FTTP take up that is compulsory through new build. Voluntary take up in any volume is price driven not tech driven.

A few tiny providers not selling Gfast is not going to make any difference to it's service life in my view.

In reply to a post by dect:

Out of interest how large was your trial?

I had to refer back, but we ran a sample trial of 25 circuits, with 22 circuits going live (3 fell well out of range, so installs did not complete).

Of the 22 circuits that went live, only 6 were within predicted ranges (and was maintained), the rest were well out of estimates. We had a couple of examples where the customer was literally 50-75 metres from the cabinet, but had syncs that were well less than 50% of expected.

We concluded that supplying a customer a predicted pre-sales range that was accurate, as we are expected to do, was simply not possible in the most cases. Factoring in everything, we felt commercially the product was going to be problematic and we would be wasting a lot of resources on something with such a small footprint. We therefore took the decision to focus on FTTP instead.

I can have it here and I shall be upgrading to it isoon (at end of current contract) because there is not and II’ve been told there will not be* any planned FTTP build serving my address (which is in the centre of a town) due its somewhat unique location. FTTPoD is possible but the cost is likely to be offputting.

In reply to a post by aquiss:

In reply to a post by dect:

Out of interest how large was your trial?

I had to refer back, but we ran a sample trial of 25 circuits, with 22 circuits going live (3 fell well out of range, so installs did not complete).

Of the 22 circuits that went live, only 6 were within predicted ranges (and was maintained), the rest were well out of estimates. We had a couple of examples where the customer was literally 50-75 metres from the cabinet, but had syncs that were well less than 50% of expected.

We concluded that supplying a customer a predicted pre-sales range that was accurate, as we are expected to do, was simply not possible in the most cases. Factoring in everything, we felt commercially the product was going to be problematic and we would be wasting a lot of resources on something with such a small footprint. We therefore took the decision to focus on FTTP instead.

Thank you for explaining your reasoning, its much appreciated as always.

In reply to a post by aquiss:

We had a couple of examples where the customer was literally 50-75 metres from the cabinet, but had syncs that were well less than 50% of expected.

Yeah I find it so strange as one of my family friend who got G.fast right in front driveway of their house (20 yard away) with BTw estimate full 330/50 and they getting 180/25.

Funny is mine is within 85 yard to the G.fast pod and Openreach engineer tested on his kit with estimate of 210/30 in May but my G.fast are now connected stable at 237/42 with line atten of 38.6dB (both snr 3.1dB but BTw estimate still 230/34.

I should count myself lucky.

xdslctl info --stats
xdslctl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason: 1
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 43028 Kbps, Downstream rate = 237941 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 42880 Kbps, Downstream rate = 237653 Kbps

Link Power State: L0
Mode: G.fast Annex A
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 3.1 3.1
Attn(dB): 38.6 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 0.0 4.0

But I believe my family friend should have maximum 330/50 due to very poor BT socket line, poor modem etc. Or poor set up by engineer.

Edited by adslmax (Mon 06-Sep-21 04:10:41)

It's not uncommon for copper lines to take unexpectedly long routes - e.g. running all the way along one side of a road and then all the way back down the other. It's also possible there is a fault; but if they are getting 180/25 then that's still "ultrafast" and similar to the FTTP 160/30 level.

According to those BT network utilisation figures, approaching 1% of all UK households have an active G.Fast service. These are presumably people who can't get FTTP (because if they had a choice of G.Fast and FTTP, you'd expect them to take FTTP).

Openreach is currently building out FTTP at about 2m properties per year, so by G.Fast-enabling 2m+ properties, you could argue they've brought forward the delivery of FTTP to everyone else by around a year. Sure, the G.Fast areas will also need upgrading eventually, and this is already happening in some areas - e.g. Tunbridge Wells.

Hence there has been some success, and at least some of the users are happy.

What we can't see are the churn figures - those who try it and then leave, either on initial connection, or at the end of their contract.

The operational difficulties with G.Fast - in particular the inability to predict accurately the speeds available before service, and the sensitivity to cabling quality and other issues - means that it's not an attractive proposition for communication providers. What they want is a service that consistently delivers what it promises, and keeps as many customers as possible off the phone.

I have not seen it stated anywhere but my guess is that the stop copper and move to VoIP will retain the copper to the premises / cab link ?.

How much of the throughput does it use ?.

I see allsorts of issues when trying to fix broadband problems over the phone with your ISP.

Restart your router etc, unless you are using a router/phone adapter.

The copper will still be active to the Exchange but only for ADSL

Thanks
Dan

In reply to a post by lmschuffer:

I have not seen it stated anywhere but my guess is that the stop copper and move to VoIP will retain the copper to the premises / cab link ?.

How much of the throughput does it use ?.

Yes, it will be VOIP over copper xDSL except for those properties where FTTP is available.

Openreach are launching SOGEA products providing 0.5M down and up for where a voice-only service is required, but in reality a voice call uses only about 0.1Mbps (a bit more for "HD" voice)

In reply to a post by lmschuffer:

I see allsorts of issues when trying to fix broadband problems over the phone with your ISP.

Restart your router etc, unless you are using a router/phone adapter.

I expect people will use a mobile to talk to their ISP. This isn't really any different today when the copper line has completely failed, or is so crackly that you can't talk over it.

In the same sort of timescale, the shared rural mobile network is being rolled out - full completion due by "early 2027" but substantial coverage increases before then.

…. also for connecting bro the TAMS test system

I must be missing something here.

If copper to the exchange will continue for adsl and testing that seems to defeat the object which I thought was to close exchanges, sell off the buildings/sites and recover the copper ?.

When my ISP has run KBD ( I'm on FTTC ) I have always thought it was ( mainly ) interested in the copper between cab and home.

Certainly the cable length it reports is much shorter than it is from the exchange.

I also expected that the DLM data bins gather was being done over its fibre connection.

Perhaps, there are separate tests for ADSL and FTTC ?.

2025 is the date for PSTN closure. That is separate to anything happening in the local loop.
TAMS can perform additional line testing that cannot be done from the DSLAMs (AFAIK), though there is wealth of data available from the DSLAMs so not sure how relevant TAMS is except for exchange based xDSL circuits.
Ultimately openreach will be left with a fully fibre based local from the exchange to DSLAM or FTTP , except for some fringe locations, and VOIP phone service. They can then start looking at exchange closures (already happening) and E side copper recovery ( already happening)

Edited by witchunt (Tue 07-Sep-21 12:02:54)

In reply to a post by lmschuffer:

I must be missing something here.

If copper to the exchange will continue for adsl and testing that seems to defeat the object which I thought was to close exchanges, sell off the buildings/sites and recover the copper ?.

When my ISP has run KBD ( I'm on FTTC ) I have always thought it was ( mainly ) interested in the copper between cab and home.

Certainly the cable length it reports is much shorter than it is from the exchange.

I also expected that the DLM data bins gather was being done over its fibre connection.

Perhaps, there are separate tests for ADSL and FTTC ?.

Buildings? Our exchange is a couple of rooms in the same building that the transport police use

Thanks witchunt.

If exchanges are already being closed and copper uplifted they must already have had a PSTN closure ?.

For those there currently on ADSL, are they offered a reduced VDSL, perhaps 10/20 Mb, or are they forced to go the whole hog ?.

All going to be down to customer costs.

Lets not get into the ability to make 999 calls during a power outage.

There's been no PSTN closure yet.
Every single SOGEA line also needs to be connected to an E-Side.
Anywhere still selling ADSL (everywhere?) obviously still needs an E-Side.

Any E-Side copper recovery can only be done where an area is fully FTTP, has already had a stop sell on copper services and then had a forced migration to fibre.
Alternatively OpenReach need to stop using exchange based TAMS for FTTC line testing with ADSL being withdrawn.

I don't know anywhere that's happened yet so can't see how they can recover any E-Side copper until then.

I'd be interested to know where E-Side recovery is happening and what's special about that location that E-Sides aren't required.

Edited by j0hn83 (Tue 07-Sep-21 13:15:04)

Not aware of any E- side recovery taken place yet either

In reply to a post by witchunt:

Not aware of any E- side recovery taken place yet either

I didn't actually read your post, just the reply to your post.

In reply to a post by witchunt:

They can then start looking at exchange closures (already happening) and E side copper recovery ( already happening)

.

It makes sense that they are looking at where they can recover copper and close exchanges in the future.

PSTN and ADSL are the 2 largest obstacles in the way of that happening just yet.

Surely most people use Dect cordless phones so a power cut would affect them anyway.

jOhn83, "where an area is fully FTTP"

Not sure I follow this, got to be FTTP first ?.

Why would a copper eside connection be needed to have VOIP on a FTTC connection ?.
There are a few exchanges already with a stop copper sales, so surely no new adsl sales available there either.

Another question might be.... what provision will there be for a voice only requirement order ?, going to need a VoIP adapter which would need to be battery backed to enable emergency calls ( have not found one as yet )

That question later will be the battery life in the cabinet as well as in the VoIP adapter.

broadband66, Perhaps we currently keep a pots plugged in in case of a power out, or at least keep one handy.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

Surely most people use Dect cordless phones so a power cut would affect them anyway.

If you’re standing up the router (with a small UPS) then you may as well plug the DECT base too. Or use the mobile.