No plans - Coming soon - No plans

Regular viewers will know I'm in a Fibre First exchange area and that 99% of streets now have FTTP. I don't and there were "no plans" according to OR at https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/fibre-firs.... I made a fuss with the CEO's office who - after much back and forth - said "no plans" and weren't willing to say why.

Then the Fibre Checker page changed and "we're starting to build in your area". Maybe making a fuss and bothering my MP had made a difference.

But today it's back to "no plans".

Is there any point in taking any notice of the checker? Does it change and change again often?

I guess its because CityFibre - who are building in 99% of the same exchange area - aren't coming down our street either. The roadworks site shows then building cabinets in the next streets presumably for their PIA cabling. In streets a bit further they're trenching so their own ducts. But all those streets already have OR FTTP and Virgin.

Now looking to see if Starlink or FTTPoD at the new prices are options...

Any obvious clues as to why both networks have deliberately decided to missed your street(s) - private roads, wayleave issues, odd paving/cobbles that could too costly to dig and re-instate following new ducts and chambers? A combination of the above?

FTTPoD or private circuit may see the same issues - reflected in the excess construction costs.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Any obvious clues as to why both networks have deliberately decided to missed your street(s)

Unadopted roads? These streets are on a new estate and the roads aren't yet adopted. However, that hasn't stopped OR cabling up half the estate. Easy cos there are new ducts to every house. But they also dug up the pavement in places to unblock ducts. Also - to add insult to injury - the dug a trench to provide fibre from our estate to the older one nearby. Yes, they already had Virgin and are on CF's list.

So the 'private' road answer isn't the actual reason.

I'm assuming any FTTPoD will run in the existing ducts to the last point where know there's fibre and hopefully a splitter. That's well within 500m of me.

Perhaps @witchunt or @kitcat could provide some intel based on your street/postcode.

re FTTPoD that will follow the same basic infrasucture routes as 'regular' native/commercial rollout of FTTP. The forthcoming changes to pricing and coverage could well be favourable in that respect.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Perhaps @witchunt or @kitcat could provide some intel based on your street/postcode.

re FTTPoD that will follow the same basic infrasucture routes as 'regular' native/commercial rollout of FTTP. The forthcoming changes to pricing and coverage could well be favourable in that respect.

Happy to DM my postcode if they haven't already worked it out.

Rough back of a fag packet calculation: Starlink (available mid 2022) comes in at around £1500 for the first year then £89 a month. If I'm 500m from a splitter FTTPoD under the new scheme is around £3350 for a 1G service or £2350 for a 115/20 deal. Then either £72 or £60 per month.

Assuming I'd get 120/20 from Starlink it's the front runner.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Perhaps @witchunt or @kitcat could provide some intel based on your street/postcode.

OK

G53 7HH - a dozen houses in this street have FTTP, the vast majority are "no plans".
G53 7HE, 7HF and 7AS - all have FTTP as far as I know.
G53 7HJ, 7HP, 7AT and 7HG are all "no plans".

Other conspiracy theory reason is OR are waiting to recover the costs of adding an additional FTTC cabinet and a new one for another part of the estate. There are three FTTC cabinets serving the estate, two from Halfway Cabinet 20 (which has around 1000 subscribers!).

As far as I know the first phase of the development got FTTC from the existing cabinet. The second phase had to wait for a new cabinet. Part of the estate is served by a new POTS cabinet and they had to wait for FTTC to be added there. So OR will want that money back before they put more in for FTTP?

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

If I'm 500m from a splitter FTTPoD under the new scheme is around £3350 for a 1G service or £2350 for a 115/20 deal. Then either £72 or £60 per month.

I was assuming the new trial pricing was ex-VAT. So if you take FTTPoD fromCerberus and assuming you meet the requirements for the new trial pricing, the first year cost would likely work out as::

1G: 1625 + 120*12 + VAT = £3,678
115/20: 1625 + 60*12 + VAT = £2,814

Follow-on pricing: if you stick with Cerberus then 1G is £72 per month, 300/50 is £48 per month, 115/20 is £39 per month. But you can also switch to any other FTTP provider of your choice at their standard FTTP pricing. Vodafone is £26 for 100/20 (if they serve your area), and Plusnet might be launching within a year (although it keeps slipping).

I don't think the OR fibre checker is reliable. Here's what the checker, and OR's Fibre Enquiries team, have said so far this year with respect to the inclusion of my house in the town's ongoing FTTP rollout:

April
In scope on the fibre checker and Fibre Enquires team advised FTTP should be available to order by end of October 2021.

August
Address removed from the fibre checker entirely and Fibre Enquiries team advised my house has been descoped (no specific reason given).

October
Address back on the fibre checker and in scope. OR Twitter team advised 'no current project for my cabinet'. Fibre Enquiries team didn't get back to me this time.

November
Lots of activity on nearby streets from OR contractors running fibre through ducts, including past properties that the fibre checker says are not in scope. My home still showing as in scope.

This is all to say that I don't think the fibre checker is necessarily correct. I've failed to get a definitive answer from Openreach in my case so now I'm just waiting to see what happens once properties near CBTs I can physically see start going live.

Might CityFibre be forthcoming as to why they aren't doing your street? As Pheasant said, there may be a common denominator.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

1G: 1625 + 120*12 + VAT = £3,678
115/20: 1625 + 60*12 + VAT = £2,814

That's assuming there's an existing splitter with sufficient capacity for his entire DP and only a CBT needs built. From the sounds of the existing builds around the OP that sounds unlikely.

That £1,625 becomes £2,650 if they need to build a new splitter as part of the FTTPoD build which is more than likely. So possibly an extra £1,025 (+vat?)

In reply to a post by candlerb:

I was assuming the new trial pricing was ex-VAT. So if you take FTTPoD fromCerberus and assuming you meet the requirements for the new trial pricing, the first year cost would likely work out as::

1G: 1625 + 120*12 + VAT = £3,678
115/20: 1625 + 60*12 + VAT = £2,814

I assumed ex VAT too but I'm registered so my prices stand

What I'm not 100% sure is if Starlink's prices include VAT. They should but Musk ... Anyway, if so that makes them much cheaper.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

That's assuming there's an existing splitter with sufficient capacity for his entire DP and only a CBT needs built. From the sounds of the existing builds around the OP that sounds unlikely.

That £1,625 becomes £2,650 if they need to build a new splitter as part of the FTTPoD build which is more than likely. So possibly an extra £1,025 (+vat?)

Assumptions are there's a splitter feeding the next door estate and capacity to continue into the rest of my estate come the time. But I really have no idea. I'd take a punt and maybe if its £1625... But an extra grand, not for me.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

Assumptions are there's a splitter feeding the next door estate and capacity to continue into the rest of my estate come the time. But I really have no idea. I'd take a punt and maybe if its £1625... But an extra grand, not for me.

The estate next door will have lots of splitters. Each splitter serves up to 30 properties.

You need to hope that any splitter that would be planned to serve your property (and every property on your DP) has enough capacity for your CBT (usually an 8 or 12 port).

I think on a modern new build estate that is probably unlikely.

Only £250+vat will tell you for sure, and not till the trial starts.

Edited by j0hn83 (Wed 10-Nov-21 20:46:29)

The Starlink prices all include VAT @ 20%

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

Only £250+vat will tell you for sure, and not till the trial starts.

I'd check with Cerberus for example that they are indeed taking part in the trial, as they provide through BTW rather than direct using Openreach.

They ought to...but one would want to be certain before parting with the deposit (sorry 'survey fee')

I think it's unclear what is meant by "a new splitter build is required".

Case 1: the property is within the footprint of an existing splitter, but there are insufficient ports. In this case it's only necessary to add another splitter into the existing housing, and splice it back onto a fibre path to a new OLT port in the exchange, using a spare fibre from existing cables.

Case 2: the property is planned within the footprint of a splitter that doesn't exist yet. It's therefore necessary to install a whole new splitter assembly in a different chamber, and pull a new cable between that chamber and the fibre aggregation node.

I'm hopeful that case 1 is no extra charge and case 2 is the additional £1025. But it might be that case 1 is +£1025 and case 2 falls back to bespoke FTTPoD pricing.

Of course, the total distance of cables to be pulled, from splitter to CBT and if necessary from splitter to aggregation node, needs to be under 500m in any case.

My take is that "where a new splitter build is required" actually means a new Prysmian assembly/enclosure, with primary/secondary splitter trays fitted and spliced up to the AgNade feed and tertiary trays etc as needed to splice up the CBT feed.

As opposed to "where a splitter exists" basically just splice up the cores going to the new CBT. No new hardware at the splitter.

Otherwise jeez £1,025 is a hell of a markup for £25 worth of Prysmian/Commscope passive 32-way PLC splitter... even for BT Group.

But who knows...any Openreach folk here willing to risk opprobrium?

It isn't even reliable when it comes to telling you about current FTTC status !

At the moment it claims that "80Mb high speed" Internet is coming to our area soon. We've had FTTC since 2014...

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

Assumptions are there's a splitter feeding the next door estate and capacity to continue into the rest of my estate come the time. But I really have no idea. I'd take a punt and maybe if its £1625... But an extra grand, not for me.

The estate next door will have lots of splitters. Each splitter serves up to 30 properties.

Depends on the 'splitter' - are we talking the basic building block 32-way SASA optical splitter that snaps into splice tray (e.g. for one PON 32-way, up to 30 premises in OR GPON builds) fitting neatly inside an outdoor splitter enclosure.

Are we talking about a splitter node, which for an OR 'medium' splitter node contains a 2 x SASA splitters (primary & secondary) so feeding 2 PON's i.e. 60 connections.

The 'large' OR splitter nodes I believe have 4 x SASA splitters inside so 4 PONS or 120 end user connection from each node.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

The Starlink prices all include VAT @ 20%

Moving on from the fag packet, here's my beer mat calculations. As we're down the pub it's cash only so no VAT.

The first year of Starlink comes to £1300 with an ongoing £74 for a (maybe?) 120/20 service. Over three years that's the equivalent of £85 per month.

FTTPoD (CBT only) is £2345 ongoing at £40 for a 115/20 service = £92 a month over 36 months.
FTTPoD with a new splitter is £3370 then at £40 a month = £120 over 36 months

So why get Starlink if FTTPoD is only a tenner or so more per month over three years? But add a splitter and Starlink is the better way to go.

But the point of FTTP for me is upload so I'd want to move to a 1000/115 service as soon as. That takes the price right up. If I need a splitter, over three years its the equivalent of £173 a month for what would cost £60 (or £54 from Zen) if OR were to finish building my estate.

You might want to consider some of the other pros and cons. For example FoD can take literally ages to get built. We waited almost 12 months, candlerb waited I think about 18 months. Cost is all up front, so unlike say a leased line - all your capex is out the gate and then…you wait. Perhaps we’re extreme outliers, but factor that into your thinking.

Starlink not without its drawbacks either. It’s a new service. Outages are not unheard of and somewhat unpredictable in nature and duration. The scaling of Starlink especially as it extends from what is essentially a rural connectivity solution in Beta to mass market is yet to be seen.

Edited by Pheasant (Thu 11-Nov-21 09:13:52)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

You might want to consider some of the other pros and cons.

Yes, exactly. Starlink isn't available here until mid 2022. Which may be a year away... Didn't I recently read FTTPoD now has a very quick lead time? My big problem with Starlink is its slow uplink. It might be better looking at some sort of bonding over FTTC for much the same money with none of the satellite cons.

If I did have to wait 18 months for FTTPoD: a) do you pay upfront on order or when work starts? b) can you cancel before work starts when the whole street gets connected by OR or CityFibre and only lose the £250 survey fee?

FTTP will also be more reliable, have lower latency, and will consume less power than the Starlink ground station - so Starlink may be "cheaper" but not necessarily "better".

> FTTPoD (CBT only) is £2345 ongoing at £40 for a 115/20 service = £92 a month over 36 months.

If you remain with Cerberus it's £32.50 per month for years 2 and 3 if you stick at 115/20:

1625 + 60*12 + 32.50*24 = £3125, over 36 months that is £87 per month

If you pay £40 for years 2 and 3 then you get 300/50, nice upgrade

Really you need a crystal ball. Starlink wins if native FTTP comes to you within 2-3 years, since you can just turn it off and switch to FTTP (and possibly sell on the ground station, I don't know if you can do that). But if your area doesn't get native FTTP soon, then FTTPoD may increase the value of your property relative to others.

OR are aiming for 80% FTTP coverage by Dec 2026, so unless you're very rural, there's a fair chance of getting it within 5 years.

The lead time for FTTPoD delivery may also be longer than getting Starlink.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

If you remain with Cerberus it's £32.50 per month for years 2 and 3 if you stick at 115/20:

1625 + 60*12 + 32.50*24 = £3125, over 36 months that is £87 per month

Ah, yes, did say it was a beer mat. Misread the 'activation' price as the monthly fee.

OR are aiming for 80% FTTP coverage by Dec 2026, so unless you're very rural, there's a fair chance of getting it within 5 years.

I must be in the 20% already. Not rural, Scotland's biggest city. Check the map and see literally everywhere around has FTTP so if it hasn't come by now I remain pessimistic.

Remember also that Satellite is affected by weather conditions, and if something goes wrong it will be very hard to fix (beyond the dish)

Have you looked into fixed wireless ?

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Depends on the 'splitter' - are we talking the basic building block 32-way SASA optical splitter that snaps into splice tray (e.g. for one PON 32-way, up to 30 premises in OR GPON builds) fitting neatly inside an outdoor splitter enclosure.

Are we talking about a splitter node, which for an OR 'medium' splitter node contains a 2 x SASA splitters (primary & secondary) so feeding 2 PON's i.e. 60 connections.

The 'large' OR splitter nodes I believe have 4 x SASA splitters inside so 4 PONS or 120 end user connection from each node.

My trouble is a I have a little knowledge. I know there are splitters and I do know exactly what a CTB does. But now there is more than one kind of splitter!

My dangerous knowledge says there must be a splitter in the footway box around 300m away. Because I know OR dug a trench from it to take fibre to the next door estate. Or if its not in that box it must be in the other one another 100m away. Either way there is fibre under that pavement. It just doesn't come further up the road and into my street.

But @j0hn83 seems to be saying even if there is a splitter its not going to have capacity?

I'll start to think in terms of £2650 rather than £1625....

In reply to a post by Taras:

Have you looked into fixed wireless ?

There are no proper fixed wireless networks here only 4G mobile. That's pretty poor, two bars max dropping to 3G at times.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

If I did have to wait 18 months for FTTPoD: a) do you pay upfront on order or when work starts? b) can you cancel before work starts when the whole street gets connected by OR or CityFibre and only lose the £250 survey fee?

1. Desktop quote (free). Indicative +/- at least 100%, gets the ball rolling. Takes about a week to ten days to get a ‘price’
2. Survey time. Decide if you want to progress beyond the desktop quite. Pay £250+VAT. Wait to get a survey date booked - a few days to a few weeks elapsed. Survey gets done, then wait a further 2 weeks to a month to get pricing back to your provider
3. Provider sends you the quote to proceed. You have as I recall 3 months to accept. You must pay the full amount (less any vouchers etc.) in order to progress the order.
4. At the point your funds are receipted, the “build” clock starts ticking. Openreach now go off and build your FoD service. This is part takes months typically. I would not bet on less than 6 months.

As far as I’m aware once you pay your connection cost, that’s it you’re fully committed and there’s no changing your mind or refunds. I have heard of the odd isolated situation where between the full survey completing and quote then being accepted which could be up to 3 months, Openreach have subsequently decided to roll out FTTP natively (within a 6 to 12 month window). Only in that particular situation I believe they will not proceed with your FoD build and monies get refunded.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

for a (maybe?) 120/20 service

I've been on Starlink a couple of months and I'd say that 20 is optimistic. Yes it does hit 20 and more up (I saw 33 once), but more common is 10-15 and it can often be under 10.

That isn't an issue for me, as the only other option is unreliable 4G or 15/5 FTTC, but if you are relying on sustained 20 up you might have issues.

Down is a lot more reliably fast, rarely see under 150, mostly is is >200.

In reply to a post by andynormancx:

I've been on Starlink a couple of months and I'd say that 20 is optimistic. Yes it does hit 20 and more up (I saw 33 once), but more common is 10-15 and it can often be under 10.

OK, thanks, that's helpful. I already have 12 up on FTTC. Maybe time to knock the Starlink option on the head. As I've said, it's not a lot more for a guaranteed 115/20 FTTPoD.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Depends on the 'splitter' - are we talking the basic building block 32-way SASA optical splitter that snaps into splice tray (e.g. for one PON 32-way, up to 30 premises in OR GPON builds) fitting neatly inside an outdoor splitter enclosure.

Are we talking about a splitter node, which for an OR 'medium' splitter node contains a 2 x SASA splitters (primary & secondary) so feeding 2 PON's i.e. 60 connections.

The 'large' OR splitter nodes I believe have 4 x SASA splitters inside so 4 PONS or 120 end user connection from each node.

My trouble is a I have a little knowledge. I know there are splitters and I do know exactly what a CTB does. But now there is more than one kind of splitter!

My dangerous knowledge says there must be a splitter in the footway box around 300m away. Because I know OR dug a trench from it to take fibre to the next door estate. Or if its not in that box it must be in the other one another 100m away. Either way there is fibre under that pavement. It just doesn't come further up the road and into my street.

But @j0hn83 seems to be saying even if there is a splitter its not going to have capacity?

I'll start to think in terms of £2650 rather than £1625....

Splitter node discussion starts around 24 mins in this video. Similarly in this video they did in conjunction with Zen (see from 9:00).

That is a "medium" Openreach splitter with 2 x SASA inside (SASA = splitter and splitter assembly / splitter array sub-assembly ..depending on who you ask) noted as the primary and secondary splitter in the video. Each SASA splitter is an optical 32-way split. Openreach leave 2 spare. So in such a node they could serve 60 connections with 30 connections on each 'PON'. The PON going back to a single optical GPON port on the OLT at the headend.

This 2017-era video from Prysmian (but with BT logos on, and Adastral Park in the opening) gives another look at what's inside these joints. Openreach use these joints not just for FTTP but also EAD/leasd line connections etc. (just perhaps not the same ones!)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

If I did have to wait 18 months for FTTPoD: a) do you pay upfront on order or when work starts? b) can you cancel before work starts when the whole street gets connected by OR or CityFibre and only lose the £250 survey fee?

1. Desktop quote (free). Indicative +/- at least 100%, gets the ball rolling. Takes about a week to ten days to get a ‘price’
2. Survey time. Decide if you want to progress beyond the desktop quite. Pay £250+VAT. Wait to get a survey date booked - a few days to a few weeks elapsed. Survey gets done, then wait a further 2 weeks to a month to get pricing back to your provider
3. Provider sends you the quote to proceed. You have as I recall 3 months to accept. You must pay the full amount (less any vouchers etc.) in order to progress the order.

You have 30 days to pay in full (or at least it was when I ordered), after which the order lapses and you lose your £250+VAT.

There is some hope that if you are eligible for the reduced pricing, meaning it's a "simple" install with less than 500m of cable needing to be pulled, and if this is a new estate with modern ducting, that you could get the install done in 4-6 months.

The delays occur when any issues are found, like a collapsed duct. Unfortunately, rather than identifying all the issues at once and getting them all fixed, OR stop as soon as the first issue is found. It then takes 2 or 3 weeks to book a repair team to sort it. Then a couple of weeks later the cabling team come back in - and if they find another problem further along, the whole cycle repeats.

Although OpenReach deploy multiple splitters within a single enclosure, the important number is 30 per splitter.

It wouldn't matter if they had a medium splitter with 10 free slots if 5 free slots were on 1 splitter and 5 on the other.
OpenReach don't split a single CBT between 2 different splitters, even within the same enclosure.
The OP needs a splitter nearby with enough free slots to feed his entire DP

The most common deployed enclosure is the medium, up to 60 premises (2 x 30).
My street for example has 2 of these, 1 at either end of the street.

The fact the OP may have a splitter within 500m with enough capacity doesn't mean they will use it.
OpenReach tend to install CBT's as close to properties as possible and the splitter as close the CBT's as possible.

I really can't see OpenReach feeding a CBT from an adjacent estate or the very opposite end of an estate on a modern new build estate.
They are far more likely to deploy a new splitter, 1 with enough capacity to feed the remaining properties.
Looking at the OP's estate there are a considerable number of properties that have been missed from the FTTP rollout, all completely surrounded by other OpenReach FTTP.

It would be a bit of a mess in a few years time if a single CBT on the street is fed from a splitter 450m away but every other CBT in the street is fed from a nearby splitter.

IMO OpenReach are likely to want to install a splitter for the OP if he ordered FTTPoD. It's not as simple as enough capacity existing within reach.

Yes you are correct it was a 28 day acceptance period, I just went back and checked. Not sure why I thought it was 3 months, memory must be fading...

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

Although OpenReach deploy multiple splitters within a single enclosure, the important number is 30 per splitter.

It wouldn't matter if they had a medium splitter with 10 free slots if 5 free slots were on 1 splitter and 5 on the other.
OpenReach don't split a single CBT between 2 different splitters, even within the same enclosure.
The OP needs a splitter nearby with enough free slots to feed his entire DP

The most common deployed enclosure is the medium, up to 60 premises (2 x 30).
My street for example has 2 of these, 1 at either end of the street.

The fact the OP may have a splitter within 500m with enough capacity doesn't mean they will use it.
OpenReach tend to install CBT's as close to properties as possible and the splitter as close the CBT's as possible.

I really can't see OpenReach feeding a CBT from an adjacent estate or the very opposite end of an estate on a modern new build estate.
They are far more likely to deploy a new splitter, 1 with enough capacity to feed the remaining properties.
Looking at the OP's estate there are a considerable number of properties that have been missed from the FTTP rollout, all completely surrounded by other OpenReach FTTP.

It would be a bit of a mess in a few years time if a single CBT on the street is fed from a splitter 450m away but every other CBT in the street is fed from a nearby splitter.

IMO OpenReach are likely to want to install a splitter for the OP if he ordered FTTPoD. It's not as simple as enough capacity existing within reach.

Reading the briefing if you take Openreach at face value with this, then if a customer is within the distance limits (as the whole point of the trial is "near network") then surely when they state very plainly "where a splitter exists" is the sum total of the criteria?

No more carveouts or caveats related to future network planning, placement of splitters for such or for that matter capacity or planning for native FTTP above and beyond...

This is otherwise just the same FoD system as previous. I'm sure my FoD build didn't enable the entire village.....just as the OP's (should he proceed) wouldn't enable the entire estate. If you catch my drift.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Reading the briefing if you take Openreach at face value with this, then if a customer is within the distance limits (as the whole point of the trial is "near network") then surely when they state very plainly "where a splitter exists" is the sum total of the criteria?

That's only taking a snippet of the briefing. Reading the whole briefing suggests it's not as simple as if a splitter exists.

For eligible orders, the FOD build charge under the trial will be set at:

£1,625 where a splitter exists, but a connectorised block terminal (CBT) needs to be built

£2,650 where a new splitter build is required, as well as the CBT build

This is otherwise just the same FoD system as previous. I'm sure my FoD build didn't enable the entire village.....just as the OP's (should he proceed) wouldn't enable the entire estate. If you catch my drift.

Then every FoD build would be with a small splitter, with no future expansion in mind. That isn't the case though.
They install the appropriate splitter with a future rollout in mind, although only enabling a single CBT.

Previously most FTTPoD quotes took no consideration of nearby plant at all and quoted for a full build from the Aggregation Node.

This trial to me seems aimed at those with a splitter and/or CBT that is intended to be used for their property being within reach and not just any splitter or CBT within 500m. Such as an FTTP build that ended in your street, not 6 streets away.

If it was the latter then OpenReach would soon be criss crossing splitters and CBT's from any old direction every time a FoD order is made within 500m of an existing build.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

This trial to me seems aimed at those with a splitter and/or CBT that is intended to be used for their property being within reach and not just any splitter or CBT within 500m. Such as an FTTP build that ended in your street, not 6 streets away.

If it was the latter then OpenReach would soon be criss crossing splitters and CBT's from any old direction every time a FoD order is made within 500m of an existing build.

The criteria don't mention anything about being within 500m of a CBT. The mention of CBTs here in relation to qualifying criteria for this trial is a red herring. For FoD a new CBT will always be required, otherwise it wouldn't be FoD . The notes say:

Qualifying criteria for FOD orders within the trial will be based on specific network conditions and are as follows:

- Head end capacity and spine capacity exists
- Distance from either the planned NGA aggregation node or an existing FTTP splitter to the target FOD end customer premises is 500m or less


If it was as you say, a splitter that was intended to be used for their property , why would they not say that?

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

This trial to me seems aimed at those with a splitter and/or CBT that is intended to be used for their property being within reach and not just any splitter or CBT within 500m. Such as an FTTP build that ended in your street, not 6 streets away.

Yes, that is very well put.

Splitter locations are planned, and the CBT is only connected to the splitter whose footprint it is within. That may be an existing splitter (could be if you are close to an existing FoD but not served by the same CBT); but if that splitter doesn't exist, it will be built - at extra cost.

Woolwich

As I see it, Everything up to Nanotech at Number 47 has FTTP available.

Everything from 50 onwards and the whole of the Oldbar Estate only has FTTC.

Google images on the estate are from 2019 and the roads appear to be unadopted. If this is still the case this indicates to me that the developer either intends to continue building or ( more likely) that he has not completely complied with some of the planning conditions. This would lead to OR not wanting to do any work until this is remedied as they would not want the bill / blame for any remedy work. (Raeswood Road does appear to be adopted .

I do wonder why Wimpey did not ask for FTTP when the estate was built in 2017 and only asked for copper. The FTTC seems to have been added later and if subsidised may have a grant term to run until OR can do anything else without repaying the subsidy.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

If it was as you say, a splitter that was intended to be used for their property , why would they not say that?

It doesn't say that. It doesn't need to.

What is does say is

£2,650 where a new splitter build is required, as well as the CBT build

Either a new splitter build is required or not. If 1 is being built it is chargeable. It reads as being that simple to me.

Therefore it is irrelevant *to the price* if there is a splitter 400m away with capacity that isn't intended on being used for that property.
If a splitter is built/installed, there's an extra £1,025 compared to just a CBT being installed.
The distant splitter simply gives eligibility to the trial pricing.

Distance from either the planned NGA aggregation node or an existing FTTP splitter to the target FOD end customer premises is 500m or less

Edited by j0hn83 (Thu 11-Nov-21 22:57:45)

If there OP has an FTTP splitter node existing and it is within 500m then he is eligible under the terms of this "near network" FoD trial. That's my point.

The question of whether an existing node can actually be be used, is to an extent a 'nice too have' £1,230 further discount. I think that is your point - the delta cost.

To my mind the really important fact is if the OP wants FoD, under this trial pricing, then the material cost is not the average £8K it has crept up to but more like £3K after VAT. Still a lot obviously but far more palatable given that a native build might still happen within window of a few years.

Some interesting observations here...

In reply to a post by kitcat:

As I see it, Everything up to Nanotech at Number 47 has FTTP available.
Everything from 50 onwards and the whole of the Oldbar Estate only has FTTC.

Yes, exactly.

Google images on the estate are from 2019 and the roads appear to be unadopted. ... This would lead to OR not wanting to do any work until this is remedied as they would not want the bill / blame for any remedy work.

Correct, the whole development is unadopted. I doubt the roads will be adopted for a few years. That's not unusual central Scotland AFAIK. But the unadopted status has NOT prevented OR digging up pavements. I know of two places they dug to unblock ducts. And they've done a usual patch, they haven't restored the pavement by resurfacing the full width. In another street they've dug a trench from a (JF4?) pavement box along the footway then over a grass area to go to the neighbouring estate. So I'm not buying the road adoption status as the reason I'm not getting FTTP.

I do wonder why Wimpey did not ask for FTTP when the estate was built in 2017 and only asked for copper. The FTTC seems to have been added later and if subsidised may have a grant term to run until OR can do anything else without repaying the subsidy.

Oh, interesting.
The entire estate was built by two developers, Miller and Taylor Wimpy. All of the Miller houses are served by the existing PCP 20. The Taylor Wimpy houses got a brand new PCP 84. PCP 20 already had a FTTC DSLAM. The Taylor Wimpy houses only had ADSL so made a fuss and the developer funded their DSLAM. According to CodeLook that was in December 2018.

An additional DSLAM was added to PCP 20 in October 2018, I may be on that or I may have found a slot on the original by being on the wait list. But as far as I know that DSLAM was funded by OR. After all PCP 20 has nearly 1000 subscribers.

[My theory about not having native FTTP during construction is the development was planned just before OR changed their rules about who pays. I'm sure all of the other developments from around this period do have FTTP, but it would be at the planning, not building stage these decisions were made.]

The Miller part of the development was done in two phases, or there are two distinct sections. The first phase now has FTTP. That itself was done in stages. At first only a dozen houses were connected. Then a few more and finally (after the pavements were dug up!) the whole of phase one connected.

I'm now starting to see why the Taylor Wimpy houses don't have FTTP, but the second phase of the Miller development? Still no good reason. Unless, as I've previously thought, OR want their money back on the second DSLAM before investing more. And/or this phase is being lumped in with Taylor Wimpy because in the end it will be cheaper to do the whole are at once rather than come twice. But that's not what happened in phase one...

So, how long to 'pay back' the DSLAM investment?

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

Correct, the whole development is unadopted. I doubt the roads will be adopted for a few years. That's not unusual central Scotland AFAIK. But the unadopted status has NOT prevented OR digging up pavements. I know of two places they dug to unblock ducts.

Being unadopted won't prevent OR digging at the request of the developer. If the developer ordered FTTP for Phase 1 then they gave OpenReach permission to dig.

The digging often delays the council adopting the roads. It's usually around 2 years from completion of the development in Scotland unless further works are planned.
The roads/pavements being dug up can reset the clock on the council adopting the roads.
No idea how it works in England.

So I'm not buying the road adoption status as the reason I'm not getting FTTP.

The roads being unadopted can and regularly does affect/delay/even prevent OpenReach doing certain works.

It's not just a case of using their code powers and getting the necessary permit via the council.
It's the developers road and the developer may want to the council to adopt the road so won't give OpenReach more permission to dig, as that can delay the road adoption.

Unless, as I've previously thought, OR want their money back on the second DSLAM before investing more

It isn't that.
OpenReach regularly overbuild newly installed VDSL2 and G.Fast DSLAM's with FTTP. Sometimes they overbuild them before they even go live.
They certainly have no worries about overbuilding 1 that was installed a couple years ago.

There's a few possible reasons why you have been either overlooked or deliberately missed for now.

1. It's the unadopted roads.
2. Lacking in spine capacity to do the remaining properties.
3. There's a known blockage/civils task required that takes the project over budget.
4. You've simply been overlooked for now. They can't do everyone at once.
5. There's 101 other less common possible reasons

I wouldn't recommend you get a quote under the new FTTPoD trial.
The chances are high you would have FTTP or at least be in plans by the time they built FoD to you.

Being a modern, fully ducted estate it's a case of when, not if.

Edited by j0hn83 (Fri 12-Nov-21 13:17:37)

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

Being unadopted won't prevent OR digging at the request of the developer. If the developer ordered FTTP for Phase 1 then they gave OpenReach permission to dig.

I'm certain the developer did not order FTTP. There was no FTTP infrastructure provision during construction. Seems unlikely they would pay OR to retro build and then in only part of the estate.



I said

Unless, as I've previously thought, OR want their money back on the second DSLAM before investing more

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

It isn't that.

How about the Taylor Wimpy DSLAM then? That could be causing a delay in the other parts as well?

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

I wouldn't recommend you get a quote under the new FTTPoD trial.
The chances are high you would have FTTP or at least be in plans by the time they built FoD to you.

Being a modern, fully ducted estate it's a case of when, not if.

You think I'll see FTTP within the year to 18 months then? If I knew that I would be happier. Openreach won't tell me anything other than they have "no commercial plans". Their map suggests my exchange area will be complete by April 2024. I don't know of more than a eight to ten streets not yet connected. So I think they're done here, we're missed out for one of the reasons you give and we'll be part of the mop up in 2026.

Woolwich

When you describe the whole development as two builders, is the Miller phase 1 Raeswood Cresent? (Which now has FTTP).

and the 2nd phase plus Wimpey the Oldbar streets.( Miller one side or Raeswood Road, Wimpey the other)

OR are likely to plan these different 'lobes' in different batches so the first has been done but the newer parts have yet to be done. Even back in 2015 developments this big could have FTTP for free if the builder asked. It was far easier to do FTTP on a new estate of this size than find the exchange equipment and duct space to do copper. BUT the decision was the builders not OR.

At some point OR would have looked at the development that was in situ and planned FTTP to cover what existed. This could be 18months or longer before it actually was provided. If the developer was building a new phase and hadn't requested FTTP it would not be included as the builder does all the infrastructure build. ( Including pavement boxes for splitters, CBTs etc)..

Eventually OR will go back and look at the missing part and plan that.. The parts are separate enough that they would need separate plans. the whole Existing Oldbar section would need 5-6 PONs so 2-3 splitters depending on size. This may need a whole new GPON head end etc.

In reply to a post by kitcat:

When you describe the whole development as two builders, is the Miller phase 1 Raeswood Cresent? (Which now has FTTP).
and the 2nd phase plus Wimpey the Oldbar streets.( Miller one side or Raeswood Road, Wimpey the other)

Pretty much. Miller's phase one runs as far as 47 Raeswood. Beyond that everything east of Raeswood is Miller, to the west Taylor Wimpy.

But this is my description. In real life Miller were building east of Reaswood (phase 2) as the others were finishing off. Taylor Wimpy were building their area before Miller phase 2 was started. I'm describing the 'phases' more to show how the three areas are being treated differently.

OR are likely to plan these different 'lobes' in different batches so the first has been done but the newer parts have yet to be done.

Yes but in reality they were all build at the same time, there was no pause in building after phase 1 was done, everything was done as if it was one big development - which it really is!

At some point OR would have looked at the development that was in situ and planned FTTP to cover what existed. This could be 18months or longer before it actually was provided. If the developer was building a new phase and hadn't requested FTTP it would not be included as the builder does all the infrastructure build. ( Including pavement boxes for splitters, CBTs etc)..

The developers didn't ask for FTTP, that's water under the bridge so now these streets are the same as every other in the Halfway exchange area. Except with brand new ducts and pavement boxes every 100 metres or so. The roads and pavements were already built for the entire estate - including the last plot at the far end of Raeswood. All the utilities were under the road. There were kerbs and pavements. The pavements had OR boxes and ducts. All before the first sod was dug for foundations.

Eventually OR will go back and look at the missing part and plan that.. The parts are separate enough that they would need separate plans. the whole Existing Oldbar section would need 5-6 PONs so 2-3 splitters depending on size. This may need a whole new GPON head end etc.

So remember this is a Fibre First exchange area. The entire area should already be planned for. The whole estate existed before the FF rollout started. So my moans aren't just about my street being missed and another done. Most folk coming to these forums saying that haven't (until recently) been in Fibre First areas. Ah, but not every street in an area will be done. Fair enough but find me another street in Halfway that hasn't been completed. Or in plan.

I'd be happy if OR gave a reason. Yes maybe its the adopted status. I did ask - directly - but whatever the question the answer was alway "don't know". In other words, not saying, still "no plans".

Which - to come back to my OP - is the cause of further frustration. After I made a fuss I was in plan. But now I'm not.

Woolwich

The only other things are legal and I do not have the knowledge of the Scottish legal system to guess what 'covenants' may apply. But until they expire it is unlikely that anybody will be providing FTTP to the 2 later phases.

Once these expire I would expect OR to be quite quick as they will be looking to 'stop sell' on the copper products. for the whole exchange.