Additional ONT

Hi everyone

Quick question, does anyone know how to get BT to install a second ONT (or a 4 port one - I heard those were coming back)?

I've tried to order a second connection for another family member (long story, wants their own connection - other more sensible suggestions have fallen on deaf ears), but the only option it ever gives me is to take over the line that's currently there.

Thanks

Although there was a media launch / release of the new Nokia 4-port ONT’s last year, I don’t think that there have been any actual deployments of them yet.

So if you order an additional FTTP service, Openreach would have to provision another drop cable from the street and install another ONT.

You basically need to pick a provider that can place a manual order with Openreach.
Most of the big players have their ordering systems setup to treat all orders as migrations/line takeovers.

When the order is placed correctly a new 1 port ONT will be ordered. Eventually the intention is this should trigger a 4 port ONT.

An issue with the 4 port ONT is some providers will only supply a service on port 1 of the ONT. BT Retail is 1 such provider. Sky and Talktalk (residential) also wouldn't provide on anything other than port 1 though that may have changed.
Part of the reason for this is simply that 4 port ONT's aren't common so the big players don't cater for them in their ordering systems.
Another reason is the likes of BT use Multicast which is only supported on port 1 of a 4 port ONT.

Edited by j0hn83 (Thu 27-Jan-22 10:07:17)

Just curious - how would this appear on www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com if there were 2 ONTs installed at same address? And if the CBT is at capacity, would they install another CBT on pole?

Makes you wonder how many 4-port ONT are in service and how many are actually being used to deliver more than one active service. The numbers must be relatively tiny (less than 1% ??)

In reply to a post by craigski:

Just curious - how would this appear on www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com if there were 2 ONTs installed at same address? And if the CBT is at capacity, would they install another CBT on pole?

I don't know. I've never seen it in the wild. Saying that the checker isn't without it foibles and inaccuracies, so it may not even mention a second ONT...

And if the CBT is at capacity, would they install another CBT on pole?

If the CBT is at capacity, Openreach could theoretically provision another CBT if there was sufficient capacity at the splitter. There's usually some spare capacity during a roilout, but later developments and subdivisions (e.g large house into flats) could put pressure on the available capacity.

In reply to a post by craigski:

Just curious - how would this appear on www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com if there were 2 ONTs installed at same address? And if the CBT is at capacity, would they install another CBT on pole?

If CBT at capacity a new ONT cannot be ordered.

My own record from the wholesale checker is informative, and looks as though the multiport ONTs are imminent and this'll be what's shown where the CBT is full.

Our records show the following FTTP network service information for these premises:-Single Dwelling Unit Residential UG Feed with no anticipated issues.

ONT exists with active service. A spare port may be available or a single port ONT may be swappable to a multiport ONT. Network is at capacity so a new ONT cannot be ordered.

It would inform that a new ONT may be ordered if there are CBT ports available.

Thanks. Hypothetically looking at my CBT on pole its a 4 way, and there are 4 properties, so I assume even if only 2 are live, the others may be 'reserved' for existing properties with no FTTP currently connected rather than providing additional ONT to existing FTTP enabled properties.

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

Our records show the following FTTP network service information for these premises:-Single Dwelling Unit Residential UG Feed with no anticipated issues.

ONT exists with active service. A spare port may be available or a single port ONT may be swappable to a multiport ONT. Network is at capacity so a new ONT cannot be ordered.

That's very interesting. Mine just has the old wording:

Our records show the following FTTP network service information for these premises:-Single Dwelling Unit Residential UG Proven Clear.

ONT exists with active service. No spare ports are available. A new ONT may be ordered.

It might be that it doesn't get the new wording until the database record is touched for some other reason. Or it might be that the OLT in my exchange doesn't support the 4-port ONTs.

My ONT is Huawei, service installed Aug 2019, so I'm presuming the OLT is Huawei too.

I'm using a multiport already and have no service on port 1 but a service on another which might explain things.

Edited by CarlTSpeak (Thu 27-Jan-22 11:43:19)

And mine is different again. I live on a new estate with no copper ( greenfield ) and there are no spare capacity at the CBT for another ont. I also do not get the message about changing to a 4 port. my current ONT is a 1 port ( with voice port for fibre voice )

ONT exists with active service. No spare ports are available. A new ONT may be ordered and will be placed in Waiters list until the network is ready.

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

I'm using a multiport already and have no service on port 1 but a service on another which might explain things.

You have 2 FTTPs connections right? Are they on the same ONT or separate, because I remember you were asking about the switching speed of the ONT, or have you got a new ONT?

Would be interesting to see what happens if 4x 1gbps connections are requested. The entire PON only has 2.4gbps...

They usually put 4-port CBT in rural / more sparsely populated areas. Mine is also a 4-port and I’m the only property connected.

If there are spare ports on the CBT that serves you, then you should be able to order. There is no ‘reservation’ per se for the other neighbours. If the neighbours decide at a later point to order and there aren’t enough ports on the CBT at the time, then it’s kind of tough luck for them. First come first served.

Edited by Pheasant (Thu 27-Jan-22 15:19:03)

In reply to a post by zzing123:

Would be interesting to see what happens if 4x 1gbps connections are requested. The entire PON only has 2.4gbps...

Nothing special will happen: it's the same as if 4 people in the same cluster of properties served by the same splitter all order 1G FTTP. The order will just go through.

FTTP is a contended service by design. If you want 1G all to yourself, then you need to buy a 1G leased line.

I was initially installed like you as FoD in mid-2019

Interestingly my wholesale checker record has been updated in the last month or so. It now says:

ONT exists with active service. A spare port may be available or a single port ONT may be swappable to a multiport ONT. A new ONT may be ordered.“

It’s a 1+1 Huawei that was swapped once in 2019 following lightning related damage. Otherwise it’s the same unit as the initial install. The wording in bold was never there previously….the bit about having a spare port was always bsllcocks (sorry database error) 😎

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

If there are spare ports on the CBT that serves you, then you should be able to order. There is no ‘reservation’ per se for the other neighbours. If the neighbours decide at a later point to order and there aren’t enough ports on the CBT at the time, then it’s kind of tough luck for them. First come first served.

Thats interesting I had assumed that if a 4 port CBT was put on a pole with 4 properties feed from that pole then each property would have the option to order FTTP and one of those ports would be used for each property. From what you're saying one greedy neighbour could in theory take all 4 ports and leave none for the other properties so the theory of properties enabled goes out of the window

In my case our neighbours haven’t ordered FTTP in the coming up to 3 years since the service was available. In fact another cottage has now been built virtually next to the serving CBT since the initial install. So zero FTTP revenue other than from yours truly.

Theoretically if I decided to order another FTTP service (another drop needed) why would Openreach object? See checker output in my post above.

Edited by Pheasant (Thu 27-Jan-22 15:35:48)

In reply to a post by zzing123:

Would be interesting to see what happens if 4x 1gbps connections are requested. The entire PON only has 2.4gbps...

SIN 506 explains that Openreach only commit to 110 down on the 1000/115 product. Interestingly, they also commit to 110 down on the 160/30 option. In practical terms they have been so conservative with the CIRs on GEA FTTP that I'd doubt they'll ever be a problem.

You'd have to order and saturate 23 services at 160/30 or higher for Openreach to be in trouble - and all the ONTs (between 6 and 23 depending if 4 ports are available) would have to be connected to the same PON. 23 services at ~£25 per month is over £550 per month at which point customers would just have ordered a 1G leased line.

You could do it with 8 services at 1000/220, but comparing Openreach prices for just the tails:

1000/220: £1009.68 rental p.a. plus £500 install
8x 1000/220: £8077.44 p.a. plus £4k install
These services would come with a committed total download rate of 2640Mbit, and 1760Mbit up.

EAD 10000 £4980 p.a. plus £5441 install
... and this is 10000 committed up and down, all day and all night.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

In my case our neighbours haven’t ordered FTTP in the coming up to 3 years since the service was available. In fact another cottage has now been built virtually next to the serving CBT since the initial install. So zero FTTP revenue other than from yours truly.

Theoretically if I decided to order another FTTP service (another drop needed) why would Openreach object? See checker output in my post above.

Its an interesting point I hadn't previously considered.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

If there are spare ports on the CBT that serves you, then you should be able to order. There is no ‘reservation’ per se for the other neighbours. If the neighbours decide at a later point to order and there aren’t enough ports on the CBT at the time, then it’s kind of tough luck for them. First come first served.

This is NOT correct at all...

Every property served by a CBT is allocated capacity, if that is used or not. Remember every property will be connected to a CBT in years to come, just because another property has not yet connected to a CBT, doesn't mean you can use their capacity. If there is spare capacity at the CBT then you might be able to order a second line.

The way forward would be a 4 port ONT would need to be installed at the property.

In reply to a post by craigski:

Thanks. Hypothetically looking at my CBT on pole its a 4 way, and there are 4 properties, so I assume even if only 2 are live, the others may be 'reserved' for existing properties with no FTTP currently connected rather than providing additional ONT to existing FTTP enabled properties.

Correct

In reply to a post by TheInstaller:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

If there are spare ports on the CBT that serves you, then you should be able to order. There is no ‘reservation’ per se for the other neighbours. If the neighbours decide at a later point to order and there aren’t enough ports on the CBT at the time, then it’s kind of tough luck for them. First come first served.

This is NOT correct at all...

Every property served by a CBT is allocated capacity, if that is used or not. Remember every property will be connected to a CBT in years to come, just because another property has not yet connected to a CBT, doesn't mean you can use their capacity. If there is spare capacity at the CBT then you might be able to order a second line.

The way forward would be a 4 port ONT would need to be installed at the property.

That's not my experience at all. Done a few installs where a single dwelling has taken 2 CBT ports where there were exactly enough ports for each property. Never heard anyone say this before now either. I would take that comment with a bucket of salt.

Edited by AllanMcOR (Thu 27-Jan-22 18:43:26)

In reply to a post by TheInstaller:

Every property served by a CBT is allocated capacity, if that is used or not. Remember every property will be connected to a CBT in years to come, just because another property has not yet connected to a CBT, doesn't mean you can use their capacity.

Is that a new thing? It never used to be the case. 4 port ONT's were the default for years so it was never a requirement.

Right next to my work there's an 8 port CBT feeding 7 properties.
2 new builds were built around 18 months ago and are served by this CBT. Both of those new builds now have FTTP, although there are still a couple free ports.
If the ports were all allocated/reserved how have both of the new builds managed to order FTTP?

There have also been at least a couple threads on the BT forums where users haven't been able to order FTTP because there's no free CBT ports because a neighbour is using 2 ports/2 ONT's.

There's a large number of deployments where exactly the right number of CBT ports have been installed for the number of properties they serve.
That would mean at every such location none of those properties would be allowed a 2nd service.

I've never heard of an order being rejected because a CBT port is allocated to someone else.

I really can't see the logic in creating a system to allocate ports to each property when that's what the 4 port subsequent provide ordering system that is being rolled out is there to solve.

That's the 1st I've ever seen that suggested and it makes zero sense. I've always understood it to be 1st come 1st served on GEA-FTTP.

Edit: perhaps someone like Martin Pitt from Aquiss could give his knowledgeable input?

Edited by j0hn83 (Thu 27-Jan-22 20:40:45)

Thanks both for confirming that I wasn’t going loopy. 🤣🙏

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

I've never heard of an order being rejected because a CBT port is allocated to someone else.

I really can't see the logic in creating a system to allocate ports to each property when that's what the 4 port subsequent provide ordering system that is being rolled out is there to solve.

Maybe it could be 'allocated' if it was part of a community/BDUK project, as there would be a voucher that could be claimed on that port when activated?

In reply to a post by craigski:

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

I've never heard of an order being rejected because a CBT port is allocated to someone else.

I really can't see the logic in creating a system to allocate ports to each property when that's what the 4 port subsequent provide ordering system that is being rolled out is there to solve.

Maybe it could be 'allocated' if it was part of a community/BDUK project, as there would be a voucher that could be claimed on that port when activated?

Possibly, but I still very much doubt it.
A 2nd drop cable with a 2nd ONT is any extremely rare occurrence.
We had 4 port ONT's for years.

It's only the last couple years Openreach have exhausted supplies of the 4 port Huawei ONT's and have launched the Nokia kit minus a 4 port ONT at the start.

They now over provision splitters and keep them to 30:1 so there's a couple spare connections in the budget. They tend to install CBT's bigger than what is required.
The chances of multiple people on a single PON being given 2 ONT's is tiny.

BDUK funds and CFP's have paid for FTTC cabinets for years. It's never guaranteed anyone a port on the cabinet.
Chipping in on funds for an FTTC cabinet didn't guarantee you a port. FTTP will be no different.

It's Openreach themselves who would miss out on unclaimed vouchers.

The cost and complexity of creating such a system would be huge for it likely to never be required.

In reply to a post by zzing123:

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

I'm using a multiport already and have no service on port 1 but a service on another which might explain things.

You have 2 FTTPs connections right? Are they on the same ONT or separate, because I remember you were asking about the switching speed of the ONT, or have you got a new ONT?

Would be interesting to see what happens if 4x 1gbps connections are requested. The entire PON only has 2.4gbps...

I have my own ONT, a slightly later revision of the Openreach HG8240G, its 'H' cousin - 2.5G backplane instead of the 1G the Openreach model has.

I have 2 connections on the ONT. Briefly there were 3, totalling more than the full capacity of the PON.

If you're curious about what GPON can do on download with 31 other customers on the split as well it's about 2.1 Gb/s - think I've a screen cllip of a Steam download running at >250 MB/s goodput.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

They now over provision splitters and keep them to 30:1 so there's a couple spare connections in the budget.

Yes, this is their normal model. Keeps 1 spare in case of fault and the other has to be authorised for use by a higher up. Obviously in some cases there will be a few spares as the PON covers fewer than 30 properties.

Our estate was built outside of these planning rules - exactly 96 premises. Guess how that was built out?

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

Our estate was built outside of these planning rules - exactly 96 premises. Guess how that was built out?

Wow. 3 splitters full to the brim? On an FTTP only site as well.
That should always have been done with 4 splitters. Here's hoping that doesn't go faulty.

It could be worse. Each splitter could also be connected to 4 x 8 port CBT's full to the brim 😂

It's rather fortunate you managed to blag a 4 port ONT. Not a single property on the development will have the option of a 2nd line (yet at least).

I've got BT on port 1, Zen on port 2. The other 2 and empty.

But I agree, the number of multiple services must be pretty small.