digital voice and copper cease

Hi all
I had digital voice activated on my FTTP service earlier in the week and am now wondering when the old copper connection will be taken away. it is still there at present but do OR wait for a time tthen dis it?
I have a made up adapter to connect my fixed extensions to the smart hub when that happens.

There's no official, proactive removal 'programme' of the existing copper lines to premises that have been served by FTTP. In some cases the engineer will remove it if asked, but it's by no means a given.

Until your property is in a copper "stop sell" area then it's possible that you (or a future occupant) will want to switch back to a copper service - and Openreach would be obliged to provide it. So it's not in their interest to remove something that might be required in future.

My guess is that the copper to remain in-situ forever. The value of the copper in 1-pair or 2-pair drop wires is almost zero, not worth retrieving. And as for the big bundles of 50+ pairs, removing them from congested ducts risks damaging other services in there, including newly-laid fibre. That leaves only overhead copper cables to reclaim.

you mis understand. I realise the copper pair will stay in the ground but when will the service via that be removed now that digital voice is up and running. i assume the connection in the exchange will be removed at some stage

In reply to a post by threelegs:

you mis understand. I realise the copper pair will stay in the ground but when will the service via that be removed now that digital voice is up and running. i assume the connection in the exchange will be removed at some stage

Do you mean, you still have dialtone on it? If so, you can dial 17070 to find what phone number is currently assigned to it.

Again, they won't disconnect it from the exchange unless they run out of ports there (which is very unlikely), because you could always request service to be reactivated at any time.

What's more likely is that if there's a fault on someone else's line, they might switch them to an unused pair, and *that* could disconnect you.

I am sure I read somewhere that there is a transition period where is works on both but I assume after that period it will go to soft dial tone.

Hi candlerb
yes i still have dial tone
just rung 17070 from a phone plugged in to my old copper socket and my old copper line now has a new number !!! but if i ring it from a mobile it doesnt connect and just drops. stranger and stranger unless they connect all they digital voice transitions to the same number in the exchange

Edited by threelegs (Sat 12-Feb-22 17:08:35)

No surprise at all. The number is an ‘engineering number’ that became live when the PSTN DN moved to your digital service.

Thanks for that zarjaz. I will now move the fixed wiring in the house over to be fed from the smart hub.

Is this now standard? Why don't openreach just cease the line?

We have an AltNet FTTP and 6 months ago ported the landline number to a 3rd party VOIP supplier, but the old landline still has a dialtone and a "dead" engineering number.

In reply to a post by TimJ:

Is this now standard? Why don't openreach just cease the line?

The process hasn't changed for 20+ years, the only difference is they now also do it when migrating PSTN lines to digital voice or VOIP.

Edited by deleted (Sun 13-Feb-22 10:48:20)

In reply to a post by TimJ:

Is this now standard? Why don't openreach just cease the line?

They did: the line is ceased, it does not accept calls.

It has an engineering number on it, so that if the OP decided to re-activate the line, they could place an order specifying this phone number. Also so that an engineer who puts croc-clips on a pair can confirm which line it is.

I'm similar after having a Renumber & Export. After calling 17070 and finding the "new" number, I called it from my mobile, it rang and on picking up I had a conversation with myself...

Cheers!

With my FTTP install the engineer used the copper wire as a means of stringing in the fibre, so we don't have copper, or a phone line, any more. This is on EE btw.

In reply to a post by TMCR:

With my FTTP install the engineer used the copper wire as a means of stringing in the fibre, so we don't have copper, or a phone line, any more. This is on EE btw.

Can someone explain the upgrade path. Does anyone suddenly get informed that they are being switched to FTTP, and if so what happens if their ISP doesn't support it ?

In reply to a post by broadbandjockey:

In reply to a post by TMCR:

With my FTTP install the engineer used the copper wire as a means of stringing in the fibre, so we don't have copper, or a phone line, any more. This is on EE btw.

Can someone explain the upgrade path. Does anyone suddenly get informed that they are being switched to FTTP, and if so what happens if their ISP doesn't support it ?

Nope. You have to order FTTP service, through your ISP.

It's possible that your ISP will inform you that they are migrating you to FTTP - or they will refuse to renew your contract on copper and will insist on FTTP for a new contract. Obviously that won't happen if your ISP doesn't do FTTP.

In copper "stop sell" areas you will find that you're unable to order a new copper service, or transfer your existing copper service to another provider, or regrade it (upgrade/downgrade speed), and so in those cases you'll have to take a new FTTP service.

But for now, you can just keep the old copper service rolling on with your existing ISP.

Eventually there will be some way to apply pressure to stragglers. I don't know if such pressure has been brought to bear in places like Salisbury, and if so, how.

Eventually there will be some way to apply pressure to stragglers. I don't know if such pressure has been brought to bear in places like Salisbury, and if so, how.

My ex father in law is in Salisbury, he uses FTTC from SSE, but has not been asked about any kind of upgrade. The CBT has been live for over a year now.

Interestingly, the houses all have DIG feeds. The solution used here was to lob a pole up , so FTTP will be O/H

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Eventually there will be some way to apply pressure to stragglers. I don't know if such pressure has been brought to bear in places like Salisbury, and if so, how.

My ex father in law is in Salisbury, he uses FTTC from SSE, but has not been asked about any kind of upgrade. The CBT has been live for over a year now.

He's fine on his FTTC for now, but as Salisbury is subject to a stop sell for anyone with FTTP available then Openreach will automatically reject any of the following;
working line takeovers, start of stopped lines, migrations, CP transfers, addition of broadband to copper voice lines, bandwidth modify, or addition of lines and channels to existing installations.
for anything other than an FTTP service.

So your ex father in law can only keep FTTC if he remains with his current provider on his current speed/package. If he wants to change anything then he will be forced on to FTTP.

They won't even be able to think of forcing people over until all the major ISPs provide FTTP, *and* they have comparable products to FTTC.

Talktalk's FTTP is Ultrafast-only (no entry-level 40M/80M service) and does not provide voice. Plusnet have no FTTP at all.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

They won't even be able to think of forcing people over until all the major ISPs provide FTTP, *and* they have comparable products to FTTC.

Talktalk's FTTP is Ultrafast-only (no entry-level 40M/80M service) and does not provide voice. Plusnet have no FTTP at all.

I wonder if that's how it will play out, given that some ISPs might well be reluctant to get involved in the provision of voice services.

In such a scenario, two alternatives come to mind...

(1) The customer is offered a voice (VoIP) service at an extra cost, which is actuallyu a white label service provided by a third-party provider

or

(2) If the customer wishes to retain a voice service, the ISP serves notice to the customer and suggests they swap to another ISP that offers voice. Otherwise the customer loses their voice service.


If I was an ISP, I'd question the value of being in the market for voice service provision. It's a declining market with many alternatives.

In reply to a post by binary:

If I was an ISP, I'd question the value of being in the market for voice service provision. It's a declining market with many alternatives.

Fixed line voice has been in steady decline (minutes and revenues) for the last two decades and hasn’t been revenue positive for BT since the noughties. The retirement of WLR will hasten the decline. I think a huge number will just not bother to continue. That is both customers and providers.

To my mind it’s more a generational behavioural change than just a technological change.

Edited by Pheasant (Tue 15-Feb-22 17:06:24)

Just replying to the last post for no reason.

So in a BT stop sell area where you cannot migrate without going FTTP.

Is the installation free for the FTTP?
Or is this another money making scheme from BT.

It's up to the provider if they want to charge for installation of FTTP.
I believe the standard Openreach installation charge applies to the provider.

Most of the big ISP's don't charge an installation/activation fee as they come with 18/24 month contracts.
Smaller providers may pass this on.

Thank you John.

I transferred from Sky FTTC to BT FTTP in late 2020

Then you had the choice to keep your copper voice or to swap to digital, you could not have both.

In summer 2021 we were forced to switch to digital voice, or lose the phone line. We decided to go digital, there was no charge and we were provided with 3 digital phones free of charge.

The existing phones in the house continue to work because I linked that copper circuit into the digital box.

I can now receive 2 phone calls at once.

When I moved our internal wiring for our voice line over from our copper line coming into our home over to the ONT TEL1 via FVA I phoned the number given and followed the instructions, I can say after that the copper line had no dial tone.
But this was a long time ago and things change and may be done differently now.

I have remained on FVA and will do so right to the last moment possible, I have already dropped BT's Fibre 900 service which is due to end some time next month and just kept the voice service via FVA, this is the first steps for porting our number over to a 3rd party VoIP Service.

Paul

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

When I moved our internal wiring for our voice line over from our copper line coming into our home over to the ONT TEL1 via FVA I phoned the number given and followed the instructions, I can say after that the copper line had no dial tone.
But this was a long time ago and things change and may be done differently now.

That's very true: there was a stop-sell applied for voice services on the FVA port a couple of years ago, and newly installed ONTs don't even have one.

My guess is that FVA services will be switched off entirely when the PSTN is shutdown in Dec 2025, if not before.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

That's very true: there was a stop-sell applied for voice services on the FVA port a couple of years ago, and newly installed ONTs don't even have one.

My guess is that FVA services will be switched off entirely when the PSTN is shutdown in Dec 2025, if not before.

Ah, ok.
Yeah I know there has been a few newer versions of the ONT.

Yeah, I asked BT if they can keep us on FVA as long as possible due to I don't want to be forced into using an ISP provided router due to I have nothing but issues with the hubs, they said they will hold off as long as possible but at some point I will be switched over.
Also that we needed the BBU for emergency phone calls during power loss which was also why BT left things as is.

TBH I thought it was end of 2024, but ok.

Hopefully I would of ported our number over to a VoIP Service by then, I just needed to separate our broadband and phone first which I have done with our broadband.

Paul

If the Openreach FTTP is just being used for FVA and Comm Fibre is providing your broadband then you could port the FVA number out without fear.

Probably better to do it sooner rather than have BT drive the process.

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

I don't want to be forced into using an ISP provided router due to I have nothing but issues with the hubs

In that case you'll want to move to a third-party SIP provider, so that the ISP-supplied router is doing nothing except for forwarding IP packets. This also lets you use your own router.

For the handset you have a choice of using a softphone app, a SIP DECT base station, a standalone ATA, a new IP phone connected by ethernet or wifi - or any combination of those.

If emergency calls are your issue then I'd suggest you get a small DC UPS to power your ONT and router, and use a softphone client like Acrobits (since that device is already battery powered). Note that if you do have a mobile phone, and your network and device support wifi calling, then you'll be able to make emergency calls using that anyway - even if you have no mobile signal indoors.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

If the Openreach FTTP is just being used for FVA and Comm Fibre is providing your broadband then you could port the FVA number out without fear.

Probably better to do it sooner rather than have BT drive the process.

Well the broadband by BT has been cancelled and ends some time next month, but phone has a little while yet, so cannot do anything with that yet.

Paul

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In that case you'll want to move to a third-party SIP provider, so that the ISP-supplied router is doing nothing except for forwarding IP packets. This also lets you use your own router.

For the handset you have a choice of using a softphone app, a SIP DECT base station, a standalone ATA, a new IP phone connected by ethernet or wifi - or any combination of those.

If emergency calls are your issue then I'd suggest you get a small DC UPS to power your ONT and router, and use a softphone client like Acrobits (since that device is already battery powered). Note that if you do have a mobile phone, and your network and device support wifi calling, then you'll be able to make emergency calls using that anyway - even if you have no mobile signal indoors.

Cannot really do anything atm due to voice service still in contract, but no harm in looking.

Also I just need to leave my MikroTik router connected and use that, voice service is still via FVA and will be for a while yet, but the time it does get moved over we would be out of contract for me to just port the number to a VoIP Service.

I might look into some IP Phones later as the contract nears its end.
As for UPS, our ONT has the BBU, but nothing stopping me getting a small UPS to power the AdTrans Modem and MikroTik Router once we move everything over.

Paul

Acrobits Softphone is only about £6 if I remember correctly, and works very well (uses push notifications to avoid training the phone battery). And if you have a family sharing account you don't need to buy multiple copies.

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

As for UPS, our ONT has the BBU, but nothing stopping me getting a small UPS to power the AdTrans Modem and MikroTik Router once we move everything over.

Out of interest, what's the AdTran for? Do you have a backup line from another provider?

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Out of interest, what's the AdTran for? Do you have a backup line from another provider?

Think it's the ONT for his now main broadband connection from Community Fibre. The Openreach FTTP connection being no longer required, except for FVA (for the time being)

We did the same. Ported the landline number to VoIP, and left the POTS phone plugged into the BT linebox.
Nearly two years later, there's still a dialtone (and I guess emergency calls could still be originated).
But bizarrely, from looking at the Caller Display screen on the phone, it seems this 'ceased-line' still receives the occasional incoming call! Mostly junk international calls, sfaics. God knows what the terminating number is supposed to be.

In reply to a post by fibrefrolics:

God knows what the terminating number is supposed to be.

To find out use an attached phone to call 17070.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Acrobits Softphone is only about £6 if I remember correctly, and works very well (uses push notifications to avoid training the phone battery). And if you have a family sharing account you don't need to buy multiple copies.

Ah, ok.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Out of interest, what's the AdTran for? Do you have a backup line from another provider?

Oh AdTran is the make of my Fibre Modem on my active Full Fibre connection with Community Fibre, not really used our BT connection since July last year.

Paul.

Yes, we tried 17070, but it says service unavailable or similar. Nevertheless, incomings still occasionally come through on the ceased line. The POTS phone has CLID with a red flashing light on missed calls. Maybe once a week, never as yet when we are there, the ceased line has apparently received an incoming.