Cable and altnets

In reply to a post by jchamier:

History seems to be repeating itself, with the 1990s cable networks.

Seen a similar comment several times on here. I never paid much attention to cable matters, because nowhere I have ever lived has been passed by cable. For those that can remember, how painful were all the cable networks "consolidation", mergers, takeovers etc for ordinary customers? Did many get stranded without any service or paying much higher charges?

How good is the analogy with fibre altnets now? Were cable installations reasonably standard, so that mergers between different networks could be technically fairly straightforward? The altnets seem to me all to be building networks with incompatible kit to different standards, which might hinder eventual consolidation, but maybe I'm wrong about that, I'm not an expert.

This post from @ajays presents an interesting take from Zen chairman, Richard Tang....

Decade of Full Fibre (presentation at LINX 114 in London on 11-Nov-21)

Basically the outcome of the "gamble" from the AltNet bubble /gold-rush / tulpenmanie in his view were... Get Big, Get Bought or Get Stranded!

The major difference is the overbuild. The cablecos had exclusive geographic areas.

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

The altnets seem to me all to be building networks with incompatible kit to different standards, which might hinder eventual consolidation, but maybe I'm wrong about that, I'm not an expert.

I think there are still a lot of separate networks within Virgin Media, but they’ve all been adjusted so that a uniform set of products can be sold across them all. The complexity for cable was the need to sell TV as well as broadband.

Consolidation in cable was multi-step over many years, smaller companies eventually merged into either Telewest or NTL, with the big merger of C&W Cable with NTL.

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

The altnets seem to me all to be building networks with incompatible kit to different standards, which might hinder eventual consolidation, but maybe I'm wrong about that, I'm not an expert.

The majority are deploying using PON architecture (GPON or XGS-PON) which are so compatible they can even coexist over the same fibre at the same time. Both can usually be configured in a way that any ONT from any manufacturer can connect to pretty much any OLT.

The fibre in the ground on PON deployments is the expensive part to rollout. Swapping the kit at either end of the fibre is less trivial.

They don't really need to be compatible though. If Alt-Net A buys Alt-Net B then it's ok if they have different hardware in different areas. It may simply mean slightly different top tier offerings in different Cities for a while.
Cable has had different speeds available in different areas for years.

The only time I expect it could be an issue is if 2 consolidated Alt-Nets have overbuilt each other in an area. In such a scenario it would make very little sense to heavily mix assets. They would likely use the superior/higher spec network under those circumstances. Simply upgrade the kit of the lower spec network in areas of the City where they don't overlap.

Hyperoptic and Gigaclear do things quite different (from everyone else and each other) and wouldn't be as easy to merge assets. That could make them less appealing to potential buyers.

The Alt-Net consolidation will no doubt happen down the line.

Thanks, guys. Interesting. Encouraging that the technology diffs may not be as much of a problem as I had thought.

Probably right, VM are going to be a big player coming in late.

I can see them buying up from the likes of grain.

Interesting. Thank you for the links.

Um, i must admit I have been thinking along these lines, we are having Zzoomm installed in the city, still a while before it gets to me and I did think when I first hear of it, great, this is what we need.
My feelings have changed a bit, while fibre is still a good thing, not so sure if an alt network is a good thing, the bloke who owns this used to own another network and flogged that, he may do the same to this one and horrors. Talk Talk may buy it up.

The other thing is that there is no competition. While I am not a fan of open reach, at least on their networks we have a choice of providers.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

...
The other thing is that there is no competition. While I am not a fan of open reach, at least on their networks we have a choice of providers.

It comes down to two different flavours of competition -

(a) Competition between distinct fibre infrastructure networks, e.g. Openreach and an altnet (or indeed multiple altnets in competition with one another

(b) Competition between ISPs on the same fibre infratstructure network, e.g. different ISPs on Openreach, or say on CityFibre.


Of course with (a) one can argue that with PIA, altnets that use Openreach physical assets aren't necessarily completely distinct infrastructure networks, as they are making use of the same ducts and/or poles.

The government of the 80's and 90's encouraged the building of new cable networks as a way of spurring on competition with BT. They also largely prevented BT from offering their own television services, to stop BT snuffing out those nascent cable networks.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

The complexity for cable was the need to sell TV as well as broadband.

Did you mean broadband as well as TV given they were built to carry cable TV?

The main complication was the billing and administration. The networks themselves were the same basic architecture and the odd one that wasn't up to scratch has been rebuilt or upgraded.

Leicester for example used to be all coaxial, no H or F in that area's networks. ntl rebuilt and upgraded it to 500 homes passed HFC in the 2000s. Eurobell areas were generally 30 MHz return paths and needed upgrading, Videotron areas needed rebuilding.

Something that helped with cable was that all the networks started off analogue when built and digital was brought on later. Alongside digital came 2-way interactive, VoD and broadband with standardised equipment in the hubs to deliver the digital and the analogue retired in time.

They are a variety of different networks still though, that's true, with different capabilities.

FTTP has the extra complication of some operators having OLTs hosted in Openreach exchanges while others have them in street cabinets alongside most of the network equipment. It'll be interesting to see what happens when an operator using one model acquires another using the other model.

VMO2 use street cabinets for their OLTs and aggregation, Netomnia don't even have cabinets. CityFibre use cabinets for passives and their own exchanges for OLTs.

Edited by CarlTSpeak (Sun 10-Apr-22 23:15:29)

Of course with (a) one can argue that with PIA, altnets that use Openreach physical assets aren't necessarily completely distinct infrastructure networks, as they are making use of the same ducts and/or poles.

Not sure how using the same ducts and poles actually comes into it. The fibre they put through these shared spots IS completely separate.

As a sad side note, if Altnet’s use PIA, and need to provide ducts where, say, only DIG cable from Openreach exists …. then Openreach are not allowed to use their ducts to provide their service…… it seems wholly unreasonable to me.

‘All animals are equal, only some are more equal than others.’*


* loose misquote from Animal Farm

One phrase: 'Significant Market Power'.

Besides which it would be insanely onerous on a small supplier forcing them to have a PIA product. You could make the case for opening up VMO2 but everyone else is a no-no.

So to do a comparison, would it be fair for you to borrow something from a neighbour who lives in a bigger house than you but not for them to ask to borrow anything from you as you live in a smaller house?

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

As a sad side note, if Altnet’s use PIA, and need to provide ducts where, say, only DIG cable from Openreach exists …. then Openreach are not allowed to use their ducts to provide their service…… it seems wholly unreasonable to me.

You'd think something could be made work here on pretty good terms for the altnet.

-Altnet install lead-in to Openreach spec and deliver their own service with it. No payment due to OR (or maybe there's a chamber entry charge, I'm not current on these things...)
-Openreach either subsequently or concurrently want to provide service to same premises. Even an arrangement where OR 'buy' the lead-in duct from the altnet for a fixed fee but grant them a perpetual PIA license at 1p per year would make financial sense for both parties. Even if the fee paid to the altnet was 50% of the actual cost of construction I'd say they'd be happy to take it.

And the homeowner doesn't get their driveway dug up again.

In reply to a post by dect:

So to do a comparison, would it be fair for you to borrow something from a neighbour who lives in a bigger house than you but not for them to ask to borrow anything from you as you live in a smaller house?

It's a genuinely absurd comparison I won't indulge with further discussion.

Most altnets are owned by far bigger firms than BT so much bigger houses. Or in Cityfibre's case, palaces.

Edited by FibreBubble (Mon 11-Apr-22 14:51:06)

I wasn’t talking about lead ins particularly …. more between network boxes. If they have used 300m of our ducts to get their fibre this far, why should they begrudge Openreach replacing a length of DIG cable via the new duct the Altnet put in ?

This is ignoring that it seems every box they pass their kit through, they have removed existing copper joints from the fixings and left them in the water.

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

It's a genuinely absurd comparison I won't indulge with further discussion.

Thats a shame, that was one of my better ones

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Of course with (a) one can argue that with PIA, altnets that use Openreach physical assets aren't necessarily completely distinct infrastructure networks, as they are making use of the same ducts and/or poles.

Not sure how using the same ducts and poles actually comes into it. The fibre they put through these shared spots IS completely separate.

Yes, the fibre is completely seperate... but the ducts and poles are shared, and ducts and poles count as infrastructure in my book. Very important - well crucial, infrastructure for a fibre optic network!

(When I wrote the earlier post I was going to add that with PIA the networks are 'optically distinct' - as a fibre-optic equivalent of being 'electrically distinct' - but then I didn't think anyone would know what I was talking about!)


As an aside, I can envisage the future scenario of someone thinking they've got redundant fibre connectivity from both Openreach and an altnet, only to find that the redundancy isn't so effective when a JCB slices through the duct that both fibres share, or a shared telegraph pole collapses after a lorry collides with it etc etc!

Edited by binary (Mon 11-Apr-22 17:07:23)

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

One phrase: 'Significant Market Power'.

Agreed. Openreach's physical infrastructure is a legacy of their history as the nationalised, monopoly telecoms network.

(That's not to dismiss any concerns about altnets bodging up Openreach cabling and other infrastructure when they install their own fibre in/on Openreach's ducts and poles.)

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

I wasn’t talking about lead ins particularly …. more between network boxes. If they have used 300m of our ducts to get their fibre this far, why should they begrudge Openreach replacing a length of DIG cable via the new duct the Altnet put in ?

This is ignoring that it seems every box they pass their kit through, they have removed existing copper joints from the fixings and left them in the water.

They don't begrudge the access to the duct specifically. They begrudge all the investment needed to support access to their ducts. It'll rapidly break their business case.

If Openreach actually want this access BT Group should lobby for it. It'll rapidly chill investment and competition but that's perhaps what Openreach employees would like to see? A return to the monopoly of the past is definitely in their interests.

The current arrangements deliver better value for the consumer but at the expense of pay and conditions as Openreach have to reduce costs to match their new competitors.

PIA is fine. Openreach should be allowed to retire copper faster though for sure, however longer term employees may not be fans of this.

In reply to a post by binary:

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

It comes down to two different flavours of competition -

(a) Competition between distinct fibre infrastructure networks, e.g. Openreach and an altnet (or indeed multiple altnets in competition with one another

(b) Competition between ISPs on the same fibre infratstructure network, e.g. different ISPs on Openreach, or say on CityFibre.


Of course with (a) one can argue that with PIA, altnets that use Openreach physical assets aren't necessarily completely distinct infrastructure networks, as they are making use of the same ducts and/or poles.

The government of the 80's and 90's encouraged the building of new cable networks as a way of spurring on competition with BT. They also largely prevented BT from offering their own television services, to stop BT snuffing out those nascent cable networks.

But if all you have is an alt network, then there is no competition at all. It is like people who can only get Virgin cable, it was virgin or ADSL at the time, now they can get VDSL.

While there is Opereach fibre in a tiny section of the city, most of the city don't have it, so Zzoomm will be the only one, they have already put their prices up, and they have not even done a Quarter of the city, so if you want FTTP, you pay their prices.

i did think about going to Zzoomm when they eventually get up here, but I decided now to stay with FTTC, i don't require 150Mb/s and if Plusnet don't do me a decent deal when my contract runs out next year I can go elsewhere, I am certainly not going to pay £33 a month for broadband, i don't really want to pay £23 to be honest


i don't want a television service, I can get video services with any network.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

i did think about going to Zzoomm when they eventually get up here, but I decided now to stay with FTTC, i don't require 150Mb/s and if Plusnet don't do me a decent deal when my contract runs out next year I can go elsewhere, I am certainly not going to pay £33 a month for broadband, i don't really want to pay £23 to be honest

There are three main target markets for Altnets:

1. Those who don't care about the speed of the broadband, or how it is delivered, but just want the cheapest possible service.
2. Those who currently get terrible service over copper, due to distance from cabinet or exchange, and will happily pay for something that is usable.
3. Those who want more bandwidth than can be delivered over FTTC, and are happy to pay for it.

For example, Cityfibre primarily target (1), and Gigaclear target (2). It sounds to me like you're in group (1).

Group (3) is relatively small. Those companies who aim for (1) or (2) will also pick up some (3) as a bonus.

However if Zzoomm are aiming primarily at group (3), then I think they'll have a hard time making any return on their outlay.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

if Plusnet don't do me a decent deal when my contract runs out next year I can go elsewhere, I am certainly not going to pay £33 a month for broadband, i don't really want to pay £23 to be honest

Excellent news.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

There are three main target markets for Altnets:

1. Those who don't care about the speed of the broadband, or how it is delivered, but just want the cheapest possible service.
2. Those who currently get terrible service over copper, due to distance from cabinet or exchange, and will happily pay for something that is usable.
3. Those who want more bandwidth than can be delivered over FTTC, and are happy to pay for it.

For example, Cityfibre primarily target (1), and Gigaclear target (2). It sounds to me like you're in group (1).

Group (3) is relatively small. Those companies who aim for (1) or (2) will also pick up some (3) as a bonus.

However if Zzoomm are aiming primarily at group (3), then I think they'll have a hard time making any return on their outlay.

I do care about speed to a certain degree, I have just done a speed check, and it was around 36Mb/s, which to be honest is fine for everything I do, more than fine to be honest, upload is a bit naff, 9Mb/s, but that have never been good anyway.
Sure, if there was someone else living here and two lots of wages were coming in, I would think differently.

When I heard that we were going to have FTTP here, I thought great, that is what we need, and I still think that, plenty of people will find use for the higher speed, but there are loads of people like me who don't feel the need for it. so far of all the people i have spoken to and i have spoken to a fair few, only a couple is interested in Zzoomm, like me they don't see the point in paying more for something that is nto going to make any difference.

if VBDSL was unreliable here than it would be a different thing, but apart from the problems I had a couple of years ago, reliability have been fine, gets a little slow now and again due to congestion, but who is to say that will not happen with FTTP?

I do agree with your points, all of them.

I think Zzoomm is betting on that they are the only FTTP here, for most of the city and people will go to them, but looking at their Facebook pages, there seems to be a fair few people having problems with speed or the lack of it.

At the end of the day, I still have until June Next year with this contract, lots of things can happen.

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

if Plusnet don't do me a decent deal when my contract runs out next year I can go elsewhere, I am certainly not going to pay £33 a month for broadband, i don't really want to pay £23 to be honest

Excellent news.

what is?

When people say "there's no competition for this FTTP provider", they tend to forget that the primary competition is FTTC.

If they provide FTTP at a higher price than FTTC, most people won't take it, even if it's faster or more reliable.

In reply to a post by binary:

Openreach's physical infrastructure is a legacy of their history as the nationalised, monopoly telecoms network.

Yeah 38 years on and people are still bringing it up as justification for BT Group being treated different.

I look at wages at BT now and find a fair few employees are being paid less than what I was on 25 years ago when I worked for them, shame some here believe the bar at BT should be lowered to the same level as those companies entering the industry today who just want to make a fast buck.

Edited by deleted (Tue 12-Apr-22 11:24:15)

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

what is?

That your months long contemplation of whether or not to take FTTP has been made: you'll take whatever is cheapest.

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

That your months long contemplation of whether or not to take FTTP has been made: you'll take whatever is cheapest.

In fairness to Adrian he has been consistent, See post from 18 months ago back in November 2020.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I am with plusnet for at least another 14 months anyway, my contract comes to the end in 2022, Myself I am not sure if I would want to go full fibre, well I suppose it depends on price. i have a good deal with plusnet at the moment and if they offer a good deal that is a fair bit below ZZOOMM price then i will stay with plusnet.
Zzoomm is £29 a month for the 100Mb/s according to their website, I am paying £23 a month for 35Mb/s with plusnet, may not seem a lot of difference, but it is £6 a month, ok, it may not seem a lot, but paying another £6 a month for something that is never going to be used to its full potential is a waste.

In reply to a post by dect:

Yeah 38 years on and people are still bringing it up as justification for BT Group being treated different.

I look at wages at BT now and find a fair few employees are being paid less than what I was on 25 years ago when I worked for them, shame some here believe the bar at BT should be lowered to the same level as those companies entering the industry today who just want to make a fast buck.

Those companies entering the industry are, in many cases, paying above the market rate due to the UK's labour market.

Those companies 'entering the industry today who just want to make a fast buck' are the only reason Openreach are rolling out FTTP. In their arrogance BT Group were hoping to palm people off with G.fast. Indeed they were super proud of it.

BT definitely have a few things they may justifiably complain about, however a major one, having to sit on copper for years, is self-inflicted.

Having to offer PIA isn't one of them - they are lucky they weren't forced to deploy point to point fibre and passively unbundle it. Being unable to access a few hundred metres of altnet duct here and there isn't one of those issues. I fully imagine that once VMO2 are done with their own FTTP overbuild another look will be taken at opening up their infrastructure.

VMO2 offering multigig wholesale is probably going to keep the regulator quiet for a while. Openreach's need for PIA to other networks is kinda undermined by that their build, even without this, is coming in at the bottom of the cost estimate range.

In reply to a post by dect:

In fairness to Adrian he has been consistent, See post from 18 months ago back in November 2020.

Referencing the year and a half of repetition on various vaguely related threads and stories was exactly the point. Now it's settled hopefully won't have to read that FTTP is too expensive on many vaguely related stories and threads across this forum, website news comments, and other sites.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

When people say "there's no competition for this FTTP provider", they tend to forget that the primary competition is FTTC.

If they provide FTTP at a higher price than FTTC, most people won't take it, even if it's faster or more reliable.

Is it? If someone lives virtually next door to the cabinet and get a good 80Mb/s or so, then yes, FTTC is a good option as long as the price is there, but a lot of people get less than me, my next door neighbour for a start, about 26Mb/s with FTTC, how I have no idea as they are on the same cabinet as me. So if they want a little more speed, they have no choice but to go for FTTP, not that they will.


As few years ago I went for a wireless network as it was better than ADSl I had at the time and cost more or less the same, sadly it went downhill and got slower and slower and by that time FTTC was here for the same price, so i went with that.
but when the wireless network was working ok, it was great and reliable, sadly they underestimated the amount of people that went for it and could not cope.

I am not bothered about the technology behind the broadband as long as it is reliable, at a decent price and I can do what I need to do with it.

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

Referencing the year and a half of repetition on various vaguely related threads and stories was exactly the point. Now it's settled hopefully won't have to read that FTTP is too expensive on many vaguely related stories and threads across this forum, website news comments, and other sites.

But it is too expensive, certainly now with the cost of living rising.
i know people say that when ADSL first came out we were paying £40 a month for around half a Megabit a second, and that we are now getting faster speed for less, and yes I agree the amount of data we use is now a lot more as well. But we send that same amount of data if it is FTTC or FTTP, just faster with FTTP.

Talk Talk is £32 a month for 150Mb/s, to be honest I thought that would be cheap due to them using open reach network, but it is only £1 cheaper than the same speed on Zzoomm.


i know of a household that is still on dial up, I did know two, but I managed to get one onto a mobile network.

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

Now it's settled hopefully won't have to read that FTTP is too expensive on many vaguely related stories and threads across this forum, website news comments, and other sites.

Thats what these forums are all about, for regular folk (not just you IT professionals although I've seen your posts on other sites about that point) to discuss all things broadband even if its not to everyone's taste.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Talk Talk is £32 a month for 150Mb/s, to be honest I thought that would be cheap due to them using open reach network

It should be more expensive due to using the Openreach network, because Openreach has regulated pricing which means they can't charge *below* a certain level - whereas the Altnets can charge what they like.

FYI, Talktalk's FTTP service doesn't include voice. That may or may not matter to you.

Certainly Talktalk need to offer a cheaper 80/20 or 40/10 FTTP service, and include a voice option, if they are going to retain customers when copper stop-sell happens.

You can get FTTP (80/20) from Sky for £28 per month. BT Retail are similar pricing, and sometimes you can get cashback or prepaid Mastercard deals. However with BT you are locked in for 24 months, and the reputation of their customer service is not good.

You say it should be more expensive, but it is not, ok Talk Talk is only a quid a month cheaper than ZZoomm, but a quid is a quid it is easier to change over to a new provider on the open reach network, so they all have to stay competitive. With Alt networks, how many people would want the hassle of changing back to the open reach network? It is hassle having the alt netrwork installed in the first place, with gardens and paths being dug up.

I have VoIP anyway, I have not used the voice on my landline since I got plusnet and came back to fixed cable broadband. Zzoomm i think have some kind of VoIP, I don't know if it costs any extra.


I can't get FTTP from anyone, at the moment , but yes I did have a look at different prices, including Sky and BT.

ZZoomm is now 24 months, they give you 6 months free at the start, but extended the contract to 24, I am, not signing up for 24 months again for anything, 18 months is long enough.

Zzoomm's Facebook page for Hereford seems to be getting full of complaints, noticed another one this morning, about a gate being left on the floor by Zzoomm, If I had a decent driveway with block paving or slabs, I would be worried that they would not do a decent job and put it back correctly.
If I did have Zzoomm, then the fibre can go down a small border down the side of the steps and then all they need to do is dig a small trench across the front door step.
anyway, still months yet before they even get anywhere near, they are still on the other side of the river and also where they first started.

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

paying above the market rate due to the UK's labour market.

You mean the ability to employ cheap labour from else where (I saw your post today on another site). Lets hope Openreach don't get any ideas of doing a full on P&O with their staff as that would be one way to lower the bar.

Edited by deleted (Wed 13-Apr-22 17:07:19)

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

paying above the market rate due to the UK's labour market.

You mean the ability to employ cheap labour from else where (I saw your post today on another site). Lets hope Openreach don't get any ideas of doing a full on P&O with their staff as that would be one way to lower the bar.

No, I'm referring to how in-demand their skills are, and how rare those skills are. There isn't a big pool of unemployed talent capable of taking the jobs and the altnets don't have the resources to train them so they have to entice them from their current employers. Nothing at all to do with employing cheap labour, that comment referred to how stretched the civils contractors are for manpower.

If Openreach are able to replace their staff with cheap, unskilled labour from abroad en masse there are far bigger issues than my opinions, and I really need to check my 5G backup and make sure i the mast isn't hanging off an Openreach EAD.

EDIT: You missed out the earlier part of the sentence referring to new entrants to the market. They are cash rich and splashing it to secure the best people, not undercutting Openreach routinely.

Edited by CarlTSpeak (Fri 15-Apr-22 14:41:32)

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

I'm referring to how in-demand their skills are, and how rare those skills are. There isn't a big pool of unemployed talent capable of taking the jobs and the altnets don't have the resources to train them so they have to entice them from their current employers.

If these altnets are not wanting to train people then they will have to pay above the market rate to attract skilled people from their existing employer and that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. If a fibre trained person is currently unemployed there must be a serious issue with them as even a donkey with some splicing experience could get a job currently.

Edited by deleted (Fri 15-Apr-22 16:55:54)

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Certainly Talktalk need to offer a cheaper 80/20 or 40/10 FTTP service, and include a voice option, if they are going to retain customers when copper stop-sell happens.

TalkTalk do offer 80/20 on FTTP now, it's currently £23.50. However still data only!
You also don't get the Eero router just their normal one you get with FTTC.

In reply to a post by Bawlk:

TalkTalk do offer 80/20 on FTTP now, it's currently £23.50.

Thank you for updating me. They hide it very well - their Future Fibre (FTTP) page doesn't list it.

But you're right: if I do an availability check, it offers "Fibre 65 Future Fibre", with "average" download of 80Mbps and "average" upload of 20Mbps.

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

I'm referring to how in-demand their skills are, and how rare those skills are. There isn't a big pool of unemployed talent capable of taking the jobs and the altnets don't have the resources to train them so they have to entice them from their current employers.

If these altnets are not wanting to train people then they will have to pay above the market rate to attract skilled people from their existing employer and that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. If a fibre trained person is currently unemployed there must be a serious issue with them as even a donkey with some splicing experience could get a job currently.

Very true. And exactly what I said, so why you jumped in suggesting I was advocating for wholesale replacement of the workforce with cheaper, unskilled labour is a mystery to me. Perhaps if you'd asked for clarification rather than making an insinuation?

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

Perhaps if you'd asked for clarification rather than making an insinuation?

The event you complained about below (posted at 13 April 2022 at 16:08) lead to less cheap labour from else where being available so I don't think I was making any insinuations.

In reference to www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2022/04/openreach-uk-to-pilot-new-ftt...:

some event from 2016 has left the UK labour market starved of people.

Staff shortages across the board have placed the UK's labour market where it is. That event both prevented freedom of movement of unskilled labour and gave a very clear signal to skilled labour alongside forcing companies to fill out forms to hire them when previously there were none.

On the whole people with the ability to be selective about where they work aren't going to make a beeline for the place where a big chunk of the population don't want them there and xenophobia is at best appeased and at worst encouraged.

It is pretty entertaining being told what I meant with something I wrote, though. Thanks for that. I can think of many better ways to spend my retirement but to each their own. Seems trying to score points is a popular past time.

If you'll excuse me on that back to studying for an exam. Some of us actually have to focus on self-improvement and delivering results rather than hoping a union or immigration controls provide job security.

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

It is pretty entertaining being told what I meant with something I wrote, though. Thanks for that. I can think of many better ways to spend my retirement but to each their own. Seems trying to score points is a popular past time.

Not trying to score points, its always good being given feedback on what you have posted so hope I have helped.

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

If you'll excuse me on that back to studying for an exam.

Hope you breeze it.

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

rather than hoping a union or immigration controls provide job security.

There you go again, you can't help yourself. Those who are from these shores deserve to be protected, its not rocket science.

Edited by deleted (Sat 16-Apr-22 14:01:49)

In reply to a post by dect:

There you go again, you can't help yourself. Those who are from these shores deserve to be protected, its not rocket science.

There is a huge amount that could be said in response to this but this isn't the place: our respective points of view reflect generational divides and are unlikely to change.

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

our respective points of view reflect generational divides and are unlikely to change.

It may take time but the younger generations do eventually find out their not invincible.

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

our respective points of view reflect generational divides and are unlikely to change.

It may take time but the younger generations do eventually find out their not invincible.

I'm part of the younger generation and I have to agree, a lot of the younger generation try and do the least work for the most amount of money. I have a reputation for being one of the few IT contractors willing to do extra hours and stay in the office till gone 6 to get on top of tickets and everything that needs doing. I know this last week I did a 10 hour day. One of the guys leaves at or before 5 even mid job.
I don't like starting something and leaving it until i'm next in, as its not always the next day, meaning I'll forget where i'm up to and will waste time trying to figure out where i got upto.

For the record I do want to progress but also believe that progression shouldn't just happen because a person is good at interviews, I think that a strong level of skill and interest is extremely important, without either of those things then to an extent there won't be a high level of skill since there is no passion to find out more. That's how I see it.

I'm not sure if that's just me but in my eyes if a job has been handed to me or to anyone it needs sorting in as little time as possible or inline with SLA's while ensuring it is to a high standard.

In reply to a post by Bawlk:

TalkTalk do offer 80/20 on FTTP now, it's currently £23.50. However still data only!
You also don't get the Eero router just their normal one you get with FTTC.

Not that it is going to affect me, for one thing, we don't have open reach FTTPOnetwork and secondly, I would never go with Talk Talk. But just to say we did, and I would, Data only is not as problem for me and surly Talk Talk would supply some sort6 of router?
A lot of these fancy names their providers call their routers just to make them sound great, and most of the time they are cheap naff rubbish, that are locked, so you can't do anything with them.

The Facebook page of Zzoomm is getting more and more complaints, and someone at work said that Zzoomm have knocked out her broadband by digging into a phone cable. I thought they would have known where cables are.

Makes me think they are a load of cowboys, or their contractors are. Certainly don't give me any trust to go with them.

surly Talk Talk

Freudian slip possibly ?

I wrote what I was thinking but this really isn't worth it. There are far worse things in life than a patronising comment.

I'm clearly in need of a break from such things, though. My thanks for demonstrating that to me.

Edited by CarlTSpeak (Sun 17-Apr-22 16:09:09)

In reply to a post by RR_The_IT_Guy:

I'm part of the younger generation and I have to agree

I wasn't just thinking about younger generations to mean those around your age but also those who are nearing the peak of their careers. When I finally decided to retire from full time work I offered my employer to coach one of these people so they could take over my senior role but instead of taking me up on my offer they decided to replace me with someone 4,500 miles away so I left them too it. The opportunities for people from these shores are getting less and less and at some point even those who think they are invincible are affected.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

The Facebook page of Zzoomm is getting more and more complaints, and someone at work said that Zzoomm have knocked out her broadband by digging into a phone cable. I thought they would have known where cables are.

Makes me think they are a load of cowboys, or their contractors are. Certainly don't give me any trust to go with them.

I personally wouldn't read to much into it, I'm sure there are good reviews as well but the eyes are drawn to the bad ones

In reply to a post by dect:

The opportunities for people from these shores are getting less and less and at some point even those who think they are invincible are affected.

The same mindset in my (global) corporate has it seems now reached its peak, we are now recruiting UK staff to do technical (IT low level engineering) on customer sites, whereas previously that would be off shored. At a higher cost to the customer per day, but the improved quality and understanding of requirements being face-to-face, means an overall lower bill to the client.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

surly Talk Talk

Freudian slip possibly ?

Yep, but it is not a reply to the question and that is Talk Talk will provide some sort of router.

In reply to a post by dect:

I personally wouldn't read to much into it, I'm sure there are good reviews as well but the eyes are drawn to the bad ones

The problem is there are not enough people using them here, so the amount of bad reviews is shocking and with the mess and problems they are causing for people not using the service, then that is going to annoy even more people and Zzoomm need to keep people on their side if they want customers.
Rolling out a fibre network is costly and no doubt Zzoomm is looking for as many customers as they can get, no good annoying your future customers.
I have the mess they are making myself and I still remember when they first started laying the cable and blocked an entrance to a cycle path, not a good idea.

You can't make an omelette without cracking some eggs

In reply to a post by dect:

You can't make an omelette without cracking some eggs

Good analogy! I remember the mess of the roads that the cable firms made in 90/91/92 around here, with many saying they would never sign up. 30 years later about 50% of the homes are now connected, mostly for internet as there are a lot of satellite dishes as well. (How many of those are now free sat is not known!).

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by dect:

You can't make an omelette without cracking some eggs

Good analogy! I remember the mess of the roads that the cable firms made in 90/91/92 around here, with many saying they would never sign up. 30 years later about 50% of the homes are now connected, mostly for internet as there are a lot of satellite dishes as well. (How many of those are now free sat is not known!).

Donny council sent around trigger with his broom and a few gallons of bitumen gunk, this seemed to hide the marks from Yorkshire Cable well enough, well until a 3 year old and his trike came out and put some lovely wheel marks in.

In reply to a post by dect:

You can't make an omelette without cracking some eggs

Our roads and pavements are bad enough as it is,
where I cycle to work, they are now digging it up again to lay more cable and the mess is awful, I have never known a mess like it, even Welsh water never made such a mess when doing the pipes in the city.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Good analogy! I remember the mess of the roads that the cable firms made in 90/91/92 around here, with many saying they would never sign up. 30 years later about 50% of the homes are now connected, mostly for internet as there are a lot of satellite dishes as well. (How many of those are now free sat is not known!).

We will see, with bill rising the way they are, people may not be so quick to spend a minimum of £33 a month on broadband and with the complaints on Facebook at the moment, I wonder how many people will think, stick that, not going through all of that.
I know some people who can now get Zzoomm, but they are not bothering at the moment, i thought my brother and sister-in-law, would have, but they are sitting tight as well.

Looks as if we are going to get Toob (from Southampton) in my town, whom apparently use the Openreach ducts (through PIA) so hopefully the street works are limited. Different to my parents whose town is being dug up (slowly) by CityFibre adding their own ducts. I see the smaller towns north of me have a complete random sprinkling of providers, from Trooli, to Zzoom, to Hey Broadband. Not sure why!

This is how it should be, use ducts already there to bring the main cable up, maybe they do here, I can't see them digging up the road all the way up to here as they will have to block a main road, so I presume they do use ducts already here for the large part.

But they are certainly digging up long trenches in other places, I have to ride over one of them.

Once one company is here, I am expecting a sprinkling of them here as well, if Zzoomm does ok,

I know one thing, cycling home last night at 10pm trying to avoid their barriers was not pleasant.

i am dreading when they come up here.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

cycling home last night at 10pm trying to avoid their barriers was not pleasant.

This did make me laugh Adrian, I did wonder if you have the same issue with parked cars at that time of night

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

cycling home last night at 10pm trying to avoid their barriers was not pleasant.

This did make me laugh Adrian, I did wonder if you have the same issue with parked cars at that time of night

No, because parked cars have reflectors, and they are parked by street lights, and you don't expect a parked car to be in the middle of the cycle path or road, lying on the floor.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

because parked cars have reflectors, and they are parked by street lights, and you don't expect a parked car to be in the middle of the cycle path or road, lying on the floor.

I don't think there are any rules around cars having to be parked by street lights and for the youngsters canoodling probably a street light is not the best place to park the car. The best advice I got when learning to drive was expect the unexpected.

i never said there were any rules about cars being parked by street lights, I just said they normally are, and they normally have reflectors.
i rode a motorbike, so i certainly know about to expect the unexpected when you get idiots who pull out of junctions without looking in their cars. But that is not the point, the point is the barriers should not be lying across the road. I noticed today while out that a couple of them have been crushed, I doubt a bike or a car done that, I presume a lorry have gone over them.

It seems that Zzoomm don't give a monkey and the amount of complaints is crazy. I seen that they can't even bury the cable correctly in someone's garden, it can clearly be seen in the photo. If I was considering going to Fibre, what I have seen so far would certainly put me off, seems to be more hassle than it is worth.