National stop/sell

ISPreview had a news item recently that BT plan to resume their Digital Voice rollout next spring. They "paused" it last March, so it will have been on hold somehow for about a year.

I'm not close to these things and I'm not sure what the pause actually meant, but I don't think they stopped DV rollout completely, it was just in cases where there were special requirements while they got their act together better on emergency back-up measures?

Whatever, is it likely that this delay will impact the national PSTN/WLR stop-sell due to start on 5 Sep 23? Doesn't affect me, but I like to keep tabs to be able to help a few older folks in my village.

Maybe Marc and Clive have a round of golf occasionally, but that’s as far as these things are correlated 😎😅

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

s it likely that this delay will impact the national PSTN/WLR stop-sell due to start on 5 Sep 23?

I have seen no announcement of any change or slippage to PSTN/WLR switch-off timetable, so I think you should assume it's going ahead as planned.

Bear in mind that WLR stop sell is not the same as a product withdrawal, so no action needs to be taken until people's CPs start contacting them.

If I've understood this page correctly, then if someone has ADSL or FTTC now, after 5 Sep 23 it won't be possible to switch CPs and retain a landline phone over WLR? Or indeed retain ADSL? The gaining provider would have to provision SOGEA and VoIP.

The exchange which serves my village is not currently on any published OR FTTP build plans. It's certainly not an FTTP priority exchange. FTTC is available pretty much everywhere. SOGEA is available. A couple of altnets are live here - do they count as "alternative fibre products" for the purposes of the WLR withdrawal table in the ref?

That only applies to the WLR portfolio. ADSL will still be available if providers still support it, as it is not an openreach product. However, copper services will not be available in FTTP areas where there is a copper stop sell if openreach FTTP is available .
Altnets are not relevant to this.

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

A couple of altnets are live here - do they count as "alternative fibre products" for the purposes of the WLR withdrawal table in the ref?

Altnet's if they provide a voice service will be using VoIP anyway which is what the other providers that use Openreach, KCOM, Virgin Media are switching too instead of WLR.

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

Whatever, is it likely that this delay will impact the national PSTN/WLR stop-sell due to start on 5 Sep 23? Doesn't affect me, but I like to keep tabs to be able to help a few older folks in my village.

The "pause" was just some PR from BT Consumer and was not the pause of the nationwide WLR/PSTN closure programme by Openreach, KCOM or Virgin Media. No other provider paused their mass migrations of customers and they continued with their own migration plans. BT Consumer still migrated certain customers to their VoIP alternative called Digital Voice during this "pause".

Openreach during the last year have been very much pushing for providers to start implementing their migration plans and ensuring they forecast and hit the trial location withdrawal dates, and ultimately the September 5th 2023 nationwide WLR stop-sell date and the December 2025 WLR/PSTN complete closure date.

Openreach with the rest of industry have been having regular industry wide working groups and regular newsletters updating the progresses and very much reminding the industry and providers to act now and be prepared.

The BT Consumer pause was most likely to be restarted again anyway in order to meet the September 5th 2023 nationwide WLR stop-sell date.

That is correct, but I assumed the people you mentioned in your post as needing assistance with their broadband/telephone aren't hopping providers that often either.

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

...the national PSTN/WLR stop-sell due to start on 5 Sep 23? Doesn't affect me, but I like to keep tabs to be able to help a few older folks in my village.

From the summary of UK 5 September 2023 stop sell rules:
"If premises get availability for GEA-FTTP, SOGfast or SOGEA post stop sell, SOTAP will be made unavailable for new supply immediately."

Possibly worth bearing that in mind later next year for anybody wishing to retain their "landline", does not have, nor want broadband and might be considering a change of phone provider? That rule might affect my elderly aunt but I think she is currently happy with her BT retail "landline".

SOTAP is just VOIP over ADSL (with or without broadband). It being unavailable will have no impact on anyone. It isn't even a thing yet (excluding the Mildenhall trial).
It's only necessary where fibre alternatives don't exist.

FTTP/FTTC already have 0.5Mb/0.5Mb tiers for people who want just a landline with no broadband.

Edited by j0hn83 (Fri 23-Dec-22 00:12:23)

Thanks for the clarification

So what will my aunt be faced with if she wishes to change landline providers after WLR stop sell given that fibre alternatives are available? I guess a preconfigured modem/router might be acceptable over FTTC for a voice only service. Not sure that she would want an ONT and FTTP installation...

In the case of BT it would be something like a BT Smart Hub 2. Just plug the phone in to the Hub instead of the master socket. BT will provision landline only at 0.5Mb/s symmetrical.

I expect smaller devices will come along for the landline only folk. Like a pre configured BT Mini Call hub, or something like that.

I also anticipate the number of providers offering landline only will shrink with the additional cost of CPE. Most of the big players already don't offer landline without broadband.

An ONT and a BT Smart Hub (router and access point combined) is a lot of unnecessary kit just to make a call.

I think that ONT's with telephone ports was the answer, helps with powering things for calls during an extended power cut.
Openreach wanted completely out of the voice business though.

Since a mobile phone is generally needed for backup then I would possibly also consider advising her to dump the landline altogether!

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

An ONT and a BT Smart Hub (router and access point combined) is a lot of unnecessary kit just to make a call.

I think that ONT's with telephone ports was the answer, helps with powering things for calls during an extended power cut.
Openreach wanted completely out of the voice business though.

Agreed. A SmartHub is a clunking great thing (with unnecessary power consumption) for 'just' running a virtual landline.

A more elegant (and low power solution given the energy crisis) should be investigated.

I don’t think any FTTP products specific to landline-only customers will be developed, the market is too small. The solution offered to people who want a phone without broadband will be to get a mobile phone, and you might see fixed GSM terminals being marketed to people who would otherwise lose a landline, perhaps with some Ofcom changes to allow geographical numbers to be ported to SIMs as long as they are only used in a fixed location.

People living in areas with poor mobile reception will be ignored until them being completely cut off becomes a problem that gets picked up by a government department.

Cutting to the chase….fixed line voice is a market they (BT or Openreach) really don’t want. It’s a pain in their collective backside.

It’s dead easy for them to not sink a penny into development or manufacture of a new product for a market they effectively want to kill off.

That’s how it will be, unless they are forced into it.

In reply to a post by jpm:

That is correct, but I assumed the people you mentioned in your post as needing assistance with their broadband/telephone aren't hopping providers that often either.

That's fair comment, most are not. They have been BT customers since dot, and are likely to stay that way.

The particular case I had in mind is of an old lady, now widowed, who lives alone. She has red button pendant alarm and various other monitoring devices attached to a control box that calls out over her (PSTN) landline. She has been told by her daughter that she ought to switch to Vodafone or some cheaper ISP to save a few pennies in these difficult times, but said daughter seems unwilling to arrange the switch and I don't think she has investigated he possible implications of the care alarm system.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

I expect smaller devices will come along for the landline only folk.

I don't expect that at all.

Landline-only folks are a small and rapidly-reducing proportion of overall lines. They'll take their Smarthub 2 or equivalent, and lump it.

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

The particular case I had in mind is of an old lady, now widowed, who lives alone. She has red button pendant alarm and various other monitoring devices attached to a control box that calls out over her (PSTN) landline. She has been told by her daughter that she ought to switch to Vodafone or some cheaper ISP to save a few pennies in these difficult times, but said daughter seems unwilling to arrange the switch and I don't think she has investigated he possible implications of the care alarm system.

To me it's not clear from the above whether the widow has broadband and phone, or just phone.

If she has phone only, I would ask:

1. Do Vodafone even sell a landline-only service?
2. If they do, is it just reselling WLR?
3. If not, i.e. it would have to be broadband+phone, is it really cheaper than BT landline?

There are a number of two-bit WLR resellers who are cheaper than BT, but I'd recommend *not* switching to those at this point. They will be the ones responsible for moving her onto digital voice soon, and I suspect most of them won't be capable of doing it properly. BT will at least have processes for assisting vulnerable people in the transition.

If she has phone + broadband, then it's true there will be some savings to be had by switching provider - and that there are quite a few now who use digital voice (including Vodafone and Sky).

But first she should be switching over her monitoring services, and it's primarily the responsibility of the suppliers of those services (not BT) to help her. There are versions of the red button which have a built in SIM card and mobile transmitter, for example. Other devices may have versions which hook up to the broadband wifi, or perhaps an upgraded "control box" can do wifi or mobile.

Does the "control box" have battery backup? If not, then she should be thinking about some sort of UPS already.

All this is akin to the digital TV switchover. Things will need to be done, and some gadgets will need replacing.

However, with the digital TV switchover there was *tons* of marketing aimed at individual end users - which seems to be absent this time round. Openreach may be talking regularly with CSPs, but for situations like the widow mentioned above, it's the end user who needs to be taking steps now.

Edited by candlerb (Fri 23-Dec-22 15:02:51)

My mother also has a fall alarm, so similar issues looming, though she does also have Broadband (for my benefit, rather than hers )

She'll be fine, because I'll rewire her extension network to the phone port of whatever router she'll be supplied with for PSTN switch off.

However, I wonder how many people are affected, and have landline only services ?

Is it worth all the care companies forming a service providing company that could provide a VoIP 'landline' service (as a client of Openreach) and install bespoke devices to ease the problem ?

Or is the user base too small ?
,

These care companies have had close to a decade to work out multi-path alarm bases, connected via ethernet and then failing over to a SIM if necessary. They've done nothing because the way they operate is primarily by marketing themselves to local authorities to achieve near monopoly status while reselling low quality goods manufactured by a third-party at a large markup.

Intruder alarms and fire alarms have been dual path for ages, there's no reasonable excuse that care alarm manufacturers can come up with that would excuse them still happy to sell you a device that only connects to a PSTN line in 2022.

The only one I've found is this https://www.tunstall.co.uk/our-products/product-cata...

Mobile phone is no good to my mum as the signal for all providers is very weak.

If in an area where full fibre is available then this maybe installed just to deliver the digital voice service.

Another provider specialising in digital phone services for pensioners: https://www.simpletelecoms.co.uk/Telephone-line-for-...

In reply to a post by cymru123:

If in an area where full fibre is available then this maybe installed just to deliver the digital voice service.

Another provider specialising in digital phone services for pensioners: https://www.simpletelecoms.co.uk/Telephone-line-for-...

Migration from another provider
Includes moving your number
Includes ATA (pre-configured CIsco) and Postage
One off setup cost £77.50

That cost from simpletelecoms is not too bad. With other providers a porting charge of about £15 seems average and an ATA (not pre-configured) may cost approx £50...

Many of the older PSTN based alarms won't work over VoIP connections because of the way the signalling works.

My mum has one and the company that provided it are going to replace hers with a compatible model in the next few months.

Ethernet/WiFI/IP based models (or ‘dialler’ cards) should be more responsive and flexible anyway. Whether that’s intruder or personal safety type alarms.

Dual path types, as noted, being the most resilient.

Thanks for all the helpful advice. I don't want to put too many personal details on a public forum.

I've lived here for 30+ years now, and this is just someone we've got to know a little from seeing them around, gardening, village events etc. She does have internet, mostly for email, a bit of surfing (BBC websites, news, weather). Zoom since the pandemic, if someone else sets it up. I've helped on a couple of occasions sorting out email problems.

The family haven't asked me to help with this. The lady just happened to mention last time we met that her daughter had told her she should switch. She mentioned Vodafone, but I think that's just an example of a cheapo ISP, not one that's been thoroughly evaluated. She didn't mention her care alarm, and I suspect the daughter hasn't thought about that at all. I've seen the thing when I've visited, but never looked at it carefully. I think it may be a Tunstall, but no idea what model.

She has never switched, doesn't know how to go about it, and doesn't want the hassle. I've advised her to make very sure that her phone company knows about the alarm. I hope that her family will get more involved and organise it, but they're not very local. As I said at the beginning, I'm just trying to keep tabs in case the lady does ask for help.

I tend to think she may be better not switching, because I think BT may do a better job for vulnerable customers than some of the cowboys out there.

The care alarms can be upgraded to an IP based version - some with a 3/4/5G back-up.

I am just looking into it for someone.

In reply to a post by MHC:

The care alarms can be upgraded to an IP based version - some with a 3/4/5G back-up.

Hopefully not just 3G though - the 3G networks are all being turned off shortly too.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Hopefully not just 3G though - the 3G networks are all being turned off shortly too.

EE may be mid January 2023, and Vodafone later in 2023 by area. Three is saying 2024, and O2 is saying “soon”.

In reply to a post by broadbandjockey:

... She'll be fine, because I'll rewire her extension network to the phone port of whatever router she'll be supplied with for PSTN switch off...

I hadn't realised it is possible to rewire in the extension wiring so old land line phones would work. I thought they needed a DC voltage to allow them to ring etc.

Are you aware of any guides on how to do this, please?

In reply to a post by jaydub:

In reply to a post by broadbandjockey:

... She'll be fine, because I'll rewire her extension network to the phone port of whatever router she'll be supplied with for PSTN switch off...

I hadn't realised it is possible to rewire in the extension wiring so old land line phones would work. I thought they needed a DC voltage to allow them to ring etc.

Are you aware of any guides on how to do this, please?

You might find this video interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id_KGXMcJHk although he is connecting the bell wires which may not be needed?

My father-in-law has the older version and I need to ensure te local authority upgrade to the new Tunstall - and not others they have an agreement with - that one refers to 4G/3G/2G and I believe there may be 5G too on a newer variant. 4G is patchy where he is - there is a 4G mast about 80m away but 20m above teh house and he is in a not-spot.

On a recent visit he asked us to check the various smoke detectors - we were unaware that one is a Tunstall, and as I pressed the test button, the base auto dialled and a bellowing voice came on "Mr Xxxxxxxxxx, are you ok? Is there a fire ? ...." We reassured them it was a test and they were happy.

Looking again at the overall package he has with FTTC, a 35% saving could be made when call costs are included by moving to a 38 or 76 Mbps FTTP.

In reply to a post by jaydub:

I hadn't realised it is possible to rewire in the extension wiring so old land line phones would work. I thought they needed a DC voltage to allow them to ring etc.

The ATA (or phone port on the router) provides the the ringing voltage, the dialtone - everything.

Only a single pair needs to be connected to modern phones. The old "anti-tinkle" line is historic; I believe it was to stop bells ringing when someone was pulse-dialing.

In reply to a post by jaydub:

In reply to a post by broadbandjockey:

... She'll be fine, because I'll rewire her extension network to the phone port of whatever router she'll be supplied with for PSTN switch off...

I hadn't realised it is possible to rewire in the extension wiring so old land line phones would work. I thought they needed a DC voltage to allow them to ring etc.

Are you aware of any guides on how to do this, please?

Theres some stuff here on the A&A site on 'voice reinjection', the term coined to describe this:

https://support.aa.net.uk/VoIP_How_to:_Voice_reinjec...

[edit: the key thing is to ensure the incoming pair is completely and remains disconnected]

🎄🎄🎄

Edited by Pheasant (Sat 24-Dec-22 23:07:00)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

[edit: the key thing is to ensure the incoming pair is completely and remains disconnected]

Otherwise, the phone will ring in the exchange, and the operator will keep picking it up

Merry Christmas!

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Otherwise, the phone will ring in the exchange, and the operator will keep picking it up

Merry Christmas!

ho ho ho

Dang you you got in before me! Ba humbug 😅 🎄🎄