Who are UFN

We already have FTTP and the whole area is already connected with FTTP.

Today there was a van outside of our house from a company called UFN.

They lifted the grid at the end of our garden to our FTTP and they were pushing through cables, had lifted the FTTP nodes and were generally messing about and when we asked what they were doing they said that they were UFN working on behalf of BT/Zoom and they were cabling the whole area town FTTP but we already have FTTP provided by openreach and when we pointed this out out they became abusive and said that it was nothing to do with us.

We contacted BT but they have no idea who they are.

Who are UFN and what are they up to ?

Does anyone know ?

Regards,
Fido

They are a contractor to Zoom. They are installing their own FTTP network, b paying for access to Openreach duct and poles.

It's completely separate and unrelated to Openreach FTTP.

Hi j0hn83,


Thank you for this information. - (Knowledgeable as always).

Since it is a new cabling system inside the BT/Openreach Manhole a concern which will mean that yet more people will be messing around inside the manhole over the years and it could mean that they may even want to expand the size of the Manhole, (which is presently level with the garden), and that is the last thing that we would want.

It seems whiffy to us that BT/Openreach considering that it is OK to give third parties permission to install other companies additional equipment/cabling on other peoples properties as it is not something that we want especially without consultation and agreement.

When Openreach needed to dig our garden to clear a collapse duct so that neighbour's could get FTTP they asked and we gave them time limited permission but the guys who cam today would not have asked as their general attitude was poor.

Regards,
Fido

In reply to a post by Fido:

It seems whiffy to us that BT/Openreach considering that it is OK to give third parties permission to install other companies additional equipment/cabling on other peoples properties as it is not something that we want especially without consultation and agreement.

I have to be honest and say I have never seen a wayleave agreement for telecoms so not sure if its written in a way that allows them to add third party equipment through PIA without a revision to the wayleave agreement. Either way if the joint box is on your land it would seem only fair for the contractors to knock on your door before starting the work and to be professional at all times.

In reply to a post by Fido:

Hi j0hn83,


Thank you for this information. - (Knowledgeable as always).

Since it is a new cabling system inside the BT/Openreach Manhole a concern which will mean that yet more people will be messing around inside the manhole over the years and it could mean that they may even want to expand the size of the Manhole, (which is presently level with the garden), and that is the last thing that we would want.

It seems whiffy to us that BT/Openreach considering that it is OK to give third parties permission to install other companies additional equipment/cabling on other peoples properties as it is not something that we want especially without consultation and agreement.

When Openreach needed to dig our garden to clear a collapse duct so that neighbour's could get FTTP they asked and we gave them time limited permission but the guys who cam today would not have asked as their general attitude was poor.

Regards,
Fido

Lots of people seem unfamiliar with the concept of a service strip - are you 100% sure this is even your property? If it is your property then the next question is going to be what does the wayleave agreement say?

Edited by jpm (Tue 07-Mar-23 17:22:19)

In reply to a post by jpm:

Lots of people seem unfamiliar with the concept of a service strip - are you 100% sure this is even your property? If it is your property then the next question is going to be what does the wayleave agreement say?

Yes it is definitely our property and there is no wayleave that I am aware of and in any case a wayleave should not be used to allow an unrelated third party to pay Openreach to access someone elses property.

https://www.openreach.com/help-and-support/obtaining...

I have read somewhere that some company has been installing new telegraph poles in some ducted areas because it is easier for them in spite of local objections probable because of an ineffectual watchdog, (OFCOM), and weakenned legislation.

I suspect that this may be another example of the sort of new legislation introduced by Barmy Boris and his crew of duffers. - (ie. The guy who took us out of the EU on the basis that a piddling 17.4 million votes out of a possible 66 million votes is the will of the people).

Regards,
Fido

Edited by Fido (Tue 07-Mar-23 19:27:37)

In reply to a post by Fido:

In reply to a post by jpm:

Lots of people seem unfamiliar with the concept of a service strip - are you 100% sure this is even your property? If it is your property then the next question is going to be what does the wayleave agreement say?

Yes it is definitely our property and there is no wayleave that I am aware of and in any case a wayleave should not be used to allow an unrelated third party to pay Openreach to access someone elses property.

https://www.openreach.com/help-and-support/obtaining...

I have read somewhere that some company has been installing new telegraph poles in some ducted areas because it is easier for them in spite of local objections probable because of an ineffectual watchdog, (OFCOM), and weakenned legislation.

I suspect that this may be another example of the sort of new legislation introduced by Barmy Boris and his crew of duffers. - (ie. The guy who took us out of the EU on the basis that a piddling 17.4 million votes out of a possible 66 million votes is the will of the people).

Regards,
Fido

Fido its Openreach's duct and pole network to do with as they please. You do not have veto rights over whom they grant PIA to. However if this is on private property then they need to seek permission from the property owner for access. Like anyone else. Very simple.

If you have an issue with the conduct or attitude of the team from UFN, I'd suggest you contract their management and lodge a formal complaint.

In reply to a post by Fido:

I suspect that this may be another example of the sort of new legislation introduced by Barmy Boris and his crew of duffers. - (ie. The guy who took us out of the EU on the basis that a piddling 17.4 million votes out of a possible 66 million votes is the will of the people).

Lets not get political on the main part of this forum please Fido as we all have a view on this matter and its not necessarily the same view as you

"However if this is on private property then they need to seek permission from the property owner for access."

What is a wayleave for?

In reply to a post by broadband66:

"However if this is on private property then they need to seek permission from the property owner for access."

What is a wayleave for?

Quite. If this is on private property and serving other premises, then a wayleave or easement should really be in place.

I have HV powerlines crossing a part of my place in Suffolk, with a wayleave in place. UKPN request access if they need to access for any reason (unless its inspection by 'copter)

Even with a wayleave the owner of the kit still needs permission to access the land prior to accessing their equipment?

In my case the wayleave does NOT grant them 24/7 free access whenever they feel like. It is private property after all.

If they want access they need to ask. Simple.

A farmer friend has 3 pylons on his property and he gets payed a fair amount each year.

As these carry high voltage cables I assume his wayleave must allow them access at any time, without permission, because if there is an issue then it needs to be fixed quickly.

It depends on the wording of the wayleave but I would expect the phrasing to be something about providing advance notice as a best-effort endeavour.

The OP should ask BT for a copy of the wayleave agreement.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

A farmer friend has 3 pylons on his property and he gets payed a fair amount each year.

As these carry high voltage cables I assume his wayleave must allow them access at any time, without permission, because if there is an issue then it needs to be fixed quickly.

I don't know what the situation is with your friend. Possibly if they are transmission lines owned/operated by National Grid. The lines that cross mine are double timber poles like this. They are owned and operated by UKPN as part of their distribution network. They are part of the dual power link that serves the Felixstowe area. I think they're 33 kV. They have been known to have tree strikes on my neighbours land (or near misses) and typically want to do a visual on foot from our place. It's arable land definitely not suitable to bring regular trucks and lorries over.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

A farmer friend has 3 pylons on his property and he gets payed a fair amount each year.

I just went back and looked at what I was getting about 15 years ago for 11kv lines going across a corner of my land (200m and 3 poles) and it was £25 a year which even then was peanuts. I have since terminated the wayleave and the lines have been removed.

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by broadband66:

A farmer friend has 3 pylons on his property and he gets payed a fair amount each year.

I just went back and looked at what I was getting about 15 years ago for 11kv lines going across a corner of my land (200m and 3 poles) and it was £25 a year which even then was peanuts. I have since terminated the wayleave and the lines have been removed.

I think my massive cheque from them is due in Sept. How will I spend my £25.13?...laughable.

How much hassle was it to get the poles moved?

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

How much hassle was it to get the poles moved?

A lot as I had to terminate the wayleave which isn't easy, about 4 years and £15k of solicitor fees for me. The 11kv was finally diverted and I was told by their project manager it cost them about £100k on their side.

Edited by deleted (Wed 08-Mar-23 17:30:39)

Ouch!!

A relation of mine has two dropwires from the pole in a field behind attached to his house and then onwards to the property on the other side of a lane. Then a single dropwire back from this other property to supply his telephone service.

I'm guessing that the other property has more than one pairs.

Will give it another good looking at next time I am there.

Get lots of noise under certain weather conditions, no wonder with all these extra external joints. Openreach tidied up the wiring a couple of years ago, but relief from noise was short term.

Anyway, ISTR from somewhere that if your service is off the same distribution as others, then no payment or wayleave required. At a previous property, we had a sewer manhole at the end of the line of the sewer where both ours and and next-door-neighbours property connected. Never received anything from Welsh Water, who on occasions used to access the chamber.

Cheers!

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

If you have an issue with the conduct or attitude of the team from UFN, I'd suggest you contract their management and lodge a formal complaint.

I have tried to find the complaint system for UFN but so far I have not found one.

Zzoomm do have a complaint system but it seems to be restriced to zzoomm customers and has what looks like a "Premium Rate" phone number for zzoomm customers to contact them on.

I am not aware of any Openreach Wayleave but even if there was a Openreach Wayleave is for Openreach Equipment on private land: Therefore, the "they can do what they want view seems flawed", as I would suspect it is limited to Openreach Equipment and not so they can sub-let access to anyone who pays them a fee. - What if 10 new Fibre Companies paid Openreach for PIA access to their ducts and this needed much larger ducts for capacity?

From Googling: It seems that zzoomm insist upopen ended zzoomm wayleaves when/if people sign up with them so I will not be signing up zzoomm unless that can be modified so this zzoomm wiring would just be for third parties.

Some years ago, when in South Manchester; I signed up with Nynex who had a similar Open Ended Wayleave but I modified both parts of that wayleave/contract so that I restriced what Nynex could do with wiring on my property being limited wiring just to my property and so I could remove it if I cancelled their service.

It seems that the zzoomm wayleaves let zzoomm do whatever zzoomm want to;

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=...

The way that this Fibre Rollout has been set up is [censored] and unfortunately that is down to our goverment who instead if setting up an excellent National Grid for broadband cabling that all providers could use they can all fit their own cabling all over the place. (eg. When you change your electric supplier you do not get new electric cabling to the house).

Regards,
Fido

In reply to a post by Fido:

The way that this Fibre Rollout has been set up is [censored] and unfortunately that is down to our goverment who instead if setting up an excellent National Grid for broadband cabling that all providers could use they can all fit their own cabling all over the place. (eg. When you change your electric supplier you do not get new electric cabling to the house).

Surely you know that you're not comparing apples with apples Fido, if not then I have over estimated you.

Edit: You need to go away and look into the missing wayleave and if necessary contact BT/Openreach wayleave department as its your land and they should have an agreement with you to install any equipment on it that is used to serve other properties.

Edited by deleted (Thu 09-Mar-23 16:46:54)

In reply to a post by Fido:

I am not aware of any Openreach Wayleave but even if there was a Openreach Wayleave is for Openreach Equipment on private land: Therefore, the "they can do what they want view seems flawed", as I would suspect it is limited to Openreach Equipment and not so they can sub-let access to anyone who pays them a fee. - What if 10 new Fibre Companies paid Openreach for PIA access to their ducts and this needed much larger ducts for capacity?

I would be surprised if any wayleave was limited to who could access their kit.

Every Openreach wayleave I've seen (a few dozen at least) has never had any mention of it being limited to Openreach employees.

Openreach uses dozens of subcontractors who have access to all their network including those parts covered by wayleaves.
Many of these subcontractors work on behalf of many companies. Kelly Communications contractors work for Openreach, Virgin, CityFibre etc.
It wouldn't surprise me if Openreach had some contracts with UFN.

They are accessing Openreach's ducts and chambers. That's what any wayleave should cover.
There's a lot more than 10 companies using PIA from Openreach. I know areas with Openreach fibre + 3 Alt-Nets fibre in the same Openreach ducts.
They pay for PIA to avoid some of the hassle of needing so many wayleaves.

The same should apply for anyone with an Openreach telegraph pole in their garden/on their land. Other companies can pay Openreach for PIA access and put their kit on the pole without needing an additional wayleave.
As long as it's in the chamber or on the pole it should be covered already.

It's a different story for drop wires, CSP's, etc.
Openreach having a wayleave to install to a home or an MDU doesn't mean anyone else can.
Anything that needs additional kit outwith the chamber/pole/ducts (that the existing wayleave covers) might need another wayleave.

Edited by j0hn83 (Fri 10-Mar-23 00:21:01)

Our friend has the large National Grid pylons and certainly got enough per year for a family of 4 holiday abroad.

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet. Is this more about the contractors not introducing themselves? The chamber must have been on the land for a while.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet. Is this more about the contractors not introducing themselves? The chamber must have been on the land for a while.

This did start off with contractors, with a bad attitude, working in the duct and telling us that it was nothing to do with us.

However, the more I have looked into it the less that I have liked the potential implications, (of others, other than Openreach or Openreach Contractors/Sub-contractors who were working in the duct to access Openreach Cabling/Equipment), rather than others working in the duct just to fit their own new cabling and/or new equipment not to supply a service to our property or cabling/equipment for use by Openreach for the Openreach Network but new cabling/equipment intended for persons unknown from a company that I have no contract with.

Here is a link to Openreach that implys that Openreach Wayleaves are for Openreach Equipment;

https://www.openreach.com/help-and-support/obtaining...

I can understand you being annoyed with them not telling you that they are going to do some work on your land/property, but did they do any harm, or damage? I don't think openreach have a choice about allowing other providers to use their ducts.

The contractors may have been rude, but it also depends on how you spoke to them, remember they are contractors, they are doing what they have been contracted to do.

In reply to a post by Fido:

Here is a link to Openreach that implys that Openreach Wayleaves are for Openreach Equipment;

https://www.openreach.com/help-and-support/obtaining...

Wayleaves are for the ducting, chambers and poles, not what's within them.

I've seen a few instances of people being unaware of the legality of a utility companies kit on their land.
Most of the time there is already a wayleave in place or 1 isn't required. If it's an ex council house and the kit was installed while it was owned by the council then there can be a historic agreement in place covering it.
Many people are also unaware that they have a service strip at the edge of their garden next to the public footpath where utilities are free to install kit.

If you believe there is Openreach infrastructure on your property that serves more than just you and that there isn't such a wayleave in effect then you may wish to fill out this form to correct that.
https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpgwayleaves/loadWaylea...

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

Wayleaves are for the ducting, chambers and poles, not what's within them.

Out of interest what happens with DIG cables as they are neither in ducting, chambers or on poles, do they need a wayleave if they are also serving others?

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by Fido:

The way that this Fibre Rollout has been set up is [censored] and unfortunately that is down to our goverment who instead if setting up an excellent National Grid for broadband cabling that all providers could use they can all fit their own cabling all over the place. (eg. When you change your electric supplier you do not get new electric cabling to the house).

Surely you know that you're not comparing apples with apples Fido, if not then I have over estimated you.

Edit: You need to go away and look into the missing wayleave and if necessary contact BT/Openreach wayleave department as its your land and they should have an agreement with you to install any equipment on it that is used to serve other properties.

I would also check with the Land Registry where the boundaries of the property are. It's amazing how many people think something is on their land and it turns out to be outside the property boundaries.

Another thing that could happened is wayleave was in place even before the residence property was developed. For example, I could of been farm that got built upon. When it was a farm BT (GPO) got wayleave.

I checked the main deeds and the boundary shows the area that the duct is in as being within our boundary plan.

It is possible that it could be a service strip; this is not shown or recorded in the deeds but some neighbours consider that the 3 foot at the end of their gardens is a service strip. - The house is 20 years old.

Openreach have always behaved properly with regard to access to the duct at the end of the garden and we never minded and when Openreach needed access as they always asked us.

Also, when Openreach needed to dig our garden to repair a partial blockage so to allow the neighbours down the road the ability to get FTTP from Openreach we Sign a Permission to Dig Form with some limitations. - No big deal and Openreach cleared the mess they created and they made good.

These zzoomm contractors were not of the same calibre.

We now know how the system works with regard to cable companies in the UK. - Some companies have obtained UK Government/Regulalation Permission to install their own networks and it now seems to be a bit like the Wild West.

If we did not already have FTTP we may have considered this multiple cable system, which could potentially end up with poles and ducts all over the place could be the way forward but a smarter Government would have treated broadband cabling exactly the same as electric cabling to homes etc.

In Cambridgeshire new cables were installed.

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/local-news/cit...

In reply to a post by Fido:

I checked the main deeds and the boundary shows the area that the duct is in as being within our boundary plan.

It is possible that it could be a service strip; this is not shown or recorded in the deeds but some neighbours consider that the 3 foot at the end of their gardens is a service strip. - The house is 20 years old.

I'm in a 6 year-old "new-build" and there is a service strip at the end of the allocated parking spaces. On the plans this not shown either but I only found out because the water meters for most houses had been put in the middle of the parking spaces and had to be moved. The water company had to get permission from all the affected householders to dig up the parking spaces to do the work.

In reply to a post by simon194:

In reply to a post by Fido:

I checked the main deeds and the boundary shows the area that the duct is in as being within our boundary plan.

It is possible that it could be a service strip; this is not shown or recorded in the deeds but some neighbours consider that the 3 foot at the end of their gardens is a service strip. - The house is 20 years old.

I'm in a 6 year-old "new-build" and there is a service strip at the end of the allocated parking spaces. On the plans this not shown either but I only found out because the water meters for most houses had been put in the middle of the parking spaces and had to be moved. The water company had to get permission from all the affected householders to dig up the parking spaces to do the work.

These type of infrastructure changes can be a great deal of hassle for anyone involved but at least they asked the householder's permission and for water pipes it should be a one-off.

Water Pipes, Gas Pipes and Electric Cables are usually part of a type of National Grid to avoid a situation in which every Tom, Dick and Zzoomm was digging up the roads and pavements for this sort of infrastructure but the same cannot be said for broadband cables.

A Smarter Government would have created an up to date and future proof Government Owned Grid of Fibre Cables to the exchanges and would then have allowed the various companies to connect to these individual Fibre Connections in the Exchanges to enable competition but that is not what we have.

Under this system; we could all end up with multiple road works, dug up pavements and worst of all brand new poles were no poles ever existed based upon a small notification note, (that no-one noticed), on a lamp post to enable permitted development or a friendly regulator/governments nod and a wink.

Is this what we want ?

In reply to a post by simon194:

I'm in a 6 year-old "new-build" and there is a service strip at the end of the allocated parking spaces. On the plans this not shown either but I only found out because the water meters for most houses had been put in the middle of the parking spaces and had to be moved. The water company had to get permission from all the affected householders to dig up the parking spaces to do the work.

The service strip is sounding more and more likely I suspect, if thats the case then anyone authorised by Openreach are within their rights to access the joint box whenever they want and other providers may choice to pull their fibre cables in as well if they use PIA. Its always good to see properties getting choice rather than just a monopoly.