Do multiple providers serve flats (MDUs)?

Hello,

Is it possible that both Openreach and an independent company serves the same block of flats? I've just entered my postcode into Netomnia which tells me they are ready to build but require wayleave from the landlord. At the same time, Openreach tells me we're part of their build plans.

If both go ahead then the communal area would end up having 2 fibre cabinets belonging to either company. I'm not sure whether the landlord would be happy if this were the case.

Or is it possible that one of them is giving the wrong info and that only 1 fibre company is allowed to deploy to the property?

Thanks.

If its like my (tiny) block of flats, I have two FTTP providers in the street, (toob & Netomina) and neither can serve my flat as the landlord has refused permission. In fact it appears the landlord has not even engaged in conversation with either. I luckily have Virgin Media coax that was already here when I moved in. No Openreach FTTP in this area, but they will arrive at some point, and want to compete.

Leasehold flats are a headache for all.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

If its like my (tiny) block of flats, I have two FTTP providers in the street, (toob & Netomina) and neither can serve my flat as the landlord has refused permission. In fact it appears the landlord has not even engaged in conversation with either. I luckily have Virgin Media coax that was already here when I moved in. No Openreach FTTP in this area, but they will arrive at some point, and want to compete.

Leasehold flats are a headache for all.

Sorry to hear this. My landlord is willing to as they contacted Openreach who then told them they weren't ready yet. I think I'll wait for Openreach before raising the subject again.

Why doesn't your landlord allow? It adds to the value of the property. The installations are free and don't require power.

In reply to a post by squarecrumpets:

Why doesn't your landlord allow? It adds to the value of the property. The installations are free and don't require power.

Who knows; they are a housing assocation that has most proprties in the London boroughs, have probably more than enough work for the administrative teams. They don't respond to letters from residents, nevermind letters from internet providers. Unfortunately I gather this is quite common, and I probably need to get a group of residents together to write to our MP and to the head of the association.

That legacy cable is available probably means legally they don't have to do anything.

Just a small wall mounted splitter box, probably hidden in a cupboard or cleaners store or such like.
Being in a plan doesn't guarantee it will go ahead, landlord may refuse or ignore

Edited by witchunt (Sun 09-Mar-25 14:53:19)

In reply to a post by witchunt:

Just a small wall mounted splitter box, probably hidden in a cupboard or cleaners store or such like.
Being in a plan doesn't guarantee it will go ahead, landlord may refuse or ignore

Hi yes I've seen the Openreach training video for installers, but if there are several providers then then cupboard will end up with several splitter boxes won't it? Not sure if the landlord will be happy with that.

They are quite compact though

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by squarecrumpets:

Why doesn't your landlord allow? It adds to the value of the property. The installations are free and don't require power.

Who knows; they are a housing assocation that has most proprties in the London boroughs, have probably more than enough work for the administrative teams. They don't respond to letters from residents, nevermind letters from internet providers. Unfortunately I gather this is quite common, and I probably need to get a group of residents together to write to our MP and to the head of the association.

That legacy cable is available probably means legally they don't have to do anything.

I think ultimately residents have to threaten the security of tenure of Housing Association Board members by standing for election on a ticket of providing fibre for all tenants with a choice of at least 2 ISPs and preferably more. Posts here titled with the name of the Housing Association plus a Facebook campaign with the aim of sufficient support to gain nomination within 2 years and to become a threat to incumbents within 4 years looks to be the likely time scale to get results.

I remember being a member of a building society 40 years ago and a certain Paul Hadleigh Twyman stood for the board without bring nominated by them. This happened for about 4 years and then they got so fed up with him that they coopted him. Not that I remember anything significant happening as a result. After a few years, I began to feel that he had become part of a comfortable establishment and rather wished someone would stand against him.

So the aim is not to become part of the comfortable establishment, but to make providing fibre for all tenants with a choice of at least 2 ISPs and preferably more an essential part of the comfort zone for the establishment

do you know what a riser is??

In reply to a post by DFScale:

So the aim is not to become part of the comfortable establishment, but to make providing fibre for all tenants with a choice of at least 2 ISPs and preferably more an essential part of the comfort zone for the establishment

Building the local group that wants this is the challenge in 2025. Fibre is still a luxury for many. Things will change in the next 5 to 10 years. Openreach copper and VM coax is better than some other places.

In reply to a post by squarecrumpets:

Is it possible that both Openreach and an independent company serves the same block of flats?

Any number of full fibre providers can install equipment to serve a block of flats, provided that they have permission to enter. My flat has access to full fibre from Openreach plus two AltNets / "independent companies".

Yes, and there are places with 3-5 FTTP overbuilds in the same MDU!

The problem is that this all depends on the management company and whether they are happy to grant the wayleave agreement.

In my example, my management refused wayleave for Hyperoptic in 2015 but granted wayleave for Community Fibre exactly 2 months after a government legislation was signed to ease wayleave access.

Then most recently last year in June a wayleave was agreed for a 2nd FTTP overbuild Virgin Media (nexfibre). Most of the MDUs managed by my housing estate have now gone live. My building initially was showing as live but is not live again. It seems they haven't yet started working inside my building.

But I know that in June they are working in my street again. Openreach FTTP however, is not yet planned for us. Though, bizarrely other buildings managed by the same company in Mile End for example, would show as planned.

The biggest problem with this wayleave is that we don't have a choice to influence our management what FTTP provider they'll grant wayleave.

I'd always give first preference to Openreach FTTP compared to Nexfibre. Unless Nexfibre really did give more competitive prices. But they haven't yet done any wholesale agreements with anyone else other than Virgin Media and we don't know what those packages will be like. With Openreach I'm already familiar with their prices.

Ultimately most of us 5-10 years down the line are expected to get upgraded to Openreach FTTP. But we have no influence on what Altnet a management company will choose. I'd avoid e.g. OFNL, G.Network as they have bad customer service and are very expensive. But if my management for example, did grant wayleave for any of them I can't stop them from going ahead.

Likewise, there are other Altnets like CityFibre that are even cheaper than Openreach+symmetrical, which I'd certainly be happy to have but I know they won't build in London!

Many places in London also have Community Fibre and Hyperoptic. For example, in Winterton House Shadwell they have Community Fibre, Hyperoptic, Openreach FTTP and Virgin Media Coax. That's 4 FTTP overbuild providers in the same building!

Yet, I know some places where they are still waiting for the very first FTTP provider to go live! And other places like Heron Tower Barbican only have Hyperoptic (No FTTC) and nothing else live or planned. But at the same time 1 minute walk to Willoughby House, Barbican they have Openreach FTTP and 4th Utility.

In reply to a post by squarecrumpets:

Is it possible that both Openreach and an independent company serves the same block of flats? I've just entered my postcode into Netomnia which tells me they are ready to build but require wayleave from the landlord. At the same time, Openreach tells me we're part of their build plans.

I lived in a flat with Hyperoptic, Virgin Media and I think ADSL2+ from OR (I think it may have been a direct to exchange or something. I forget now).

Hyperoptic did a great job with cabling in common areas - very neat.. Virgin... did the opposite.
seb

In reply to a post by seb:

Hyperoptic did a great job with cabling in common areas - very neat..

Nice... and essential for any big blocks.

Virgin... did the opposite.

LOL... here everything is external.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by seb:

Hyperoptic did a great job with cabling in common areas - very neat..

Nice... and essential for any big blocks.

Virgin... did the opposite.

LOL... here everything is external.

The wall needs to be ripped off due to materials and EWS1 so ... that would get rid of Virgin
It's also 20 storeys tall in some places so don't think that would have worked.

In reply to a post by behuk:

In reply to a post by squarecrumpets:

Is it possible that both Openreach and an independent company serves the same block of flats?

Any number of full fibre providers can install equipment to serve a block of flats, provided that they have permission to enter. My flat has access to full fibre from Openreach plus two AltNets / "independent companies".

Thanks for this info. The landlord didn't object to the large number of splitter cabinets being installed?

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

Yes, and there are places with 3-5 FTTP overbuilds in the same MDU!

The problem is that this all depends on the management company and whether they are happy to grant the wayleave agreement.

In my example, my management refused wayleave for Hyperoptic in 2015 but granted wayleave for Community Fibre exactly 2 months after a government legislation was signed to ease wayleave access.

Then most recently last year in June a wayleave was agreed for a 2nd FTTP overbuild Virgin Media (nexfibre). Most of the MDUs managed by my housing estate have now gone live. My building initially was showing as live but is not live again. It seems they haven't yet started working inside my building.

But I know that in June they are working in my street again. Openreach FTTP however, is not yet planned for us. Though, bizarrely other buildings managed by the same company in Mile End for example, would show as planned.

The biggest problem with this wayleave is that we don't have a choice to influence our management what FTTP provider they'll grant wayleave.

I'd always give first preference to Openreach FTTP compared to Nexfibre. Unless Nexfibre really did give more competitive prices. But they haven't yet done any wholesale agreements with anyone else other than Virgin Media and we don't know what those packages will be like. With Openreach I'm already familiar with their prices.

Ultimately most of us 5-10 years down the line are expected to get upgraded to Openreach FTTP. But we have no influence on what Altnet a management company will choose. I'd avoid e.g. OFNL, G.Network as they have bad customer service and are very expensive. But if my management for example, did grant wayleave for any of them I can't stop them from going ahead.

Likewise, there are other Altnets like CityFibre that are even cheaper than Openreach+symmetrical, which I'd certainly be happy to have but I know they won't build in London!

Many places in London also have Community Fibre and Hyperoptic. For example, in Winterton House Shadwell they have Community Fibre, Hyperoptic, Openreach FTTP and Virgin Media Coax. That's 4 FTTP overbuild providers in the same building!

Yet, I know some places where they are still waiting for the very first FTTP provider to go live! And other places like Heron Tower Barbican only have Hyperoptic (No FTTC) and nothing else live or planned. But at the same time 1 minute walk to Willoughby House, Barbican they have Openreach FTTP and 4th Utility.

Thanks this is good info.

Where I live, the management company can't provide the wayleave but the Landlord does. A while back they contacted the landlord who then contacted Openreach only to be told it's too early to provide wayleave. At least this shows their willingness to help residents.

As far as choice of networks, if I wanted to reduce the number of fibre equipment etc. then I'd allow Openreach as top priority. This is because they have the highest number of ISPs connected to their network (over 650). CityFibre has about 30 but they're decent ones. Netomnia only works with YouFibre I believe. I believe Hyperoptic and Virgin are closed networks.

Yup Openreach is asymmetrical for now but I doubt the landlord will be concerned about that.

You mean the leaseholder of your flat where you're living in who is renting it out?
If it is the leaseholder (landlord) then he/she is still powerless to do anything about it. My parents are leaseholders here but the management is EastendHomes.

In my case it doesn't matter that we pay them service charge or whether my parents own the flat. Wayleave can't be individually granted for specific flats only. It has to be granted for the entire residential building!

This is also one reason why Openreach FTTP on Demand (FTTPoD) does not work for MDU buildings. Because even if you paid Openreach they still can't install without the permission of the landowner/building owner.

If you know your management company and know who is the housing estate officer or technical services manager then contacting them would be more useful. Also, they may be organising leaseholders meetings every 1-3 months in your local estate office. Attending those meetings and raising those concerns can be helpful.

Speaking with your neighbours can also be helpful since I am sure they will want FTTP as well. Of-course if you are still waiting for the first FTTP provider then it is difficult to say, which provider will be granted permission. I'd still be ready to welcome whatever is being offered as it will be better than nothing.

As for the multiple FTTP networks (should it become available), you won't have to worry about the number of equipment going into your flat. If for example, you chose only Openreach FTTP then only Openreach FTTP ONT and its fibre drop cable will enter your flat. If you only separately order in future another Altnet only then you will be having the multiple ONT equipment and fibre cables entering your flat.

For example, Community Fibre is available here last 2 years. I haven't yet joined them as for some reason I have been happy with BT FTTC last 3 years. Because I didn't order their service yet the fibre cable does not yet enter inside our flat and I don't have an ONT yet! But if I did order only then an engineer will come to visit our flat and install the fibre drop cable and ONT.

In reply to a post by squarecrumpets:

Thanks for this info. The landlord didn't object to the large number of splitter cabinets being installed?

The three installations are relatively compact so it's not a big deal. The bigger "problem" is the POE modules above each front door, but even then I'd argue it's better to have multiple POE modules than to have a monopoly on the physical network.

PS: I am assuming that by "landlord" you mean the freeholder of the block (or their agent).

In reply to a post by behuk:

In reply to a post by squarecrumpets:

Thanks for this info. The landlord didn't object to the large number of splitter cabinets being installed?

The three installations are relatively compact so it's not a big deal. The bigger "problem" is the POE modules above each front door, but even then I'd argue it's better to have multiple POE modules than to have a monopoly on the physical network.

PS: I am assuming that by "landlord" you mean the freeholder of the block (or their agent).

Yes Landlord the company that owns the leasehold. It is John Lewis. It’s up to them rather than the management company.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

You mean the leaseholder of your flat where you're living in who is renting it out?
If it is the leaseholder (landlord) then he/she is still powerless to do anything about it. My parents are leaseholders here but the management is EastendHomes.

In my case it doesn't matter that we pay them service charge or whether my parents own the flat. Wayleave can't be individually granted for specific flats only. It has to be granted for the entire residential building!

This is also one reason why Openreach FTTP on Demand (FTTPoD) does not work for MDU buildings. Because even if you paid Openreach they still can't install without the permission of the landowner/building owner.

If you know your management company and know who is the housing estate officer or technical services manager then contacting them would be more useful. Also, they may be organising leaseholders meetings every 1-3 months in your local estate office. Attending those meetings and raising those concerns can be helpful.

Speaking with your neighbours can also be helpful since I am sure they will want FTTP as well. Of-course if you are still waiting for the first FTTP provider then it is difficult to say, which provider will be granted permission. I'd still be ready to welcome whatever is being offered as it will be better than nothing.

As for the multiple FTTP networks (should it become available), you won't have to worry about the number of equipment going into your flat. If for example, you chose only Openreach FTTP then only Openreach FTTP ONT and its fibre drop cable will enter your flat. If you only separately order in future another Altnet only then you will be having the multiple ONT equipment and fibre cables entering your flat.

For example, Community Fibre is available here last 2 years. I haven't yet joined them as for some reason I have been happy with BT FTTC last 3 years. Because I didn't order their service yet the fibre cable does not yet enter inside our flat and I don't have an ONT yet! But if I did order only then an engineer will come to visit our flat and install the fibre drop cable and ONT.

Yes sorry landlord means the lease holder, John Lewis owns it. The area is leasehold. They’re the landlord and have to grant the wayleave.

In reply to a post by squarecrumpets:

Yes sorry landlord means the lease holder, John Lewis owns it. The area is leasehold. They’re the landlord and have to grant the wayleave.

Isn't it the freeholder who has to grant the wayleave? don't think the leaseholder has the rights?

In reply to a post by PCJM40:

Isn't it the freeholder who has to grant the wayleave? don't think the leaseholder has the rights?

As a flat leaseholder (lessee) myself, it is the freeholder, often known as the "building owner". They may also be the lessor (the one that grants the lease) unless have delegated that to a management company.

In reply to a post by PCJM40:

In reply to a post by squarecrumpets:

Yes sorry landlord means the lease holder, John Lewis owns it. The area is leasehold. They’re the landlord and have to grant the wayleave.

Isn't it the freeholder who has to grant the wayleave? don't think the leaseholder has the rights?

My goodness I'm so confused, they're the freeholder not the leaseholder. And it's no longer John Lewis, the freehold has been purchased by another company.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by PCJM40:

Isn't it the freeholder who has to grant the wayleave? don't think the leaseholder has the rights?

As a flat leaseholder (lessee) myself, it is the freeholder, often known as the "building owner". They may also be the lessor (the one that grants the lease) unless have delegated that to a management company.

Yes I meant to say freeholder, sorry my bad.

So, if you know who is the freeholder who took over from John Lewis but you don't know who bought it off John Lewis. I'm sure your landlord will know who the freeholder is since he/she is paying service charge.

Don't you get letters with service charge statements through your letterbox? Maybe these letters are confidential but that will have the information on who the freehold owner is since the yearly service charges are being paid to them. It will have their logo printed in those letters.

Through this you can find out more information on the management contact details. You can also then check other buildings managed by the same freeholder whether they have a build plan for FTTP or any other Altnet.

For example, does it show "Build planned between now and Dec-2026" for all buildings or just your building? This is important as this can give you an indication whether a wayleave has been agreed.

Normally speaking, if a wayleave is granted for your building then wayleave will apply for the remaining buildings managed by the same freeholder as well!

Now with Netomnia if it is saying "Planning stage" then it means they are interested in your area. In my case it shows "Not planned" so this means they aren't interested to build in my area even if wayleave was granted.

For example, in one of the buildings where we rent out it shows for Hyperoptic 3. Building Permission granted "We have an agreement to proceed with our installation for your building." it has been that way for a good few years now. But they only have Community Fibre and build plan for Openreach FTTP December 2026.

But for me of-course it shows 2. We are rolling out in your area and it will say it needs permission from the freeholder or property manager.

Obviously this can be generic but it also can give an idea where a provider shows interest but isn't yet getting the permission to install. In my case I know this since I am a registered Hyperoptic Champion for my building and I know that the Hyperoptic representative has indeed tried on multiple occasions to speak to my management who downright refused Hyperoptic. Management even admitted to me that they are fed-up of their phone calls but still remain stubborn. Never did I know the reason for it despite getting my 30+ neighbours of the building involved in registering their interest.

But it all depends. Your management may be more compliant than mine and might respect the registered interests. But this alone may not be enough if the management still ignores the wayleave request. The only difference this will make is draw the attention of the Altnet or wholesale network provider to look into building in your premise.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

So, if you know who is the freeholder who took over from John Lewis but you don't know who bought it off John Lewis. I'm sure your landlord will know who the freeholder is since he/she is paying service charge.

Don't you get letters with service charge statements through your letterbox? Maybe these letters are confidential but that will have the information on who the freehold owner is since the yearly service charges are being paid to them. It will have their logo printed in those letters.

Through this you can find out more information on the management contact details. You can also then check other buildings managed by the same freeholder whether they have a build plan for FTTP or any other Altnet.

For example, does it show "Build planned between now and Dec-2026" for all buildings or just your building? This is important as this can give you an indication whether a wayleave has been agreed.

Normally speaking, if a wayleave is granted for your building then wayleave will apply for the remaining buildings managed by the same freeholder as well!

Now with Netomnia if it is saying "Planning stage" then it means they are interested in your area. In my case it shows "Not planned" so this means they aren't interested to build in my area even if wayleave was granted.

For example, in one of the buildings where we rent out it shows for Hyperoptic 3. Building Permission granted "We have an agreement to proceed with our installation for your building." it has been that way for a good few years now. But they only have Community Fibre and build plan for Openreach FTTP December 2026.

But for me of-course it shows 2. We are rolling out in your area and it will say it needs permission from the freeholder or property manager.

Obviously this can be generic but it also can give an idea where a provider shows interest but isn't yet getting the permission to install. In my case I know this since I am a registered Hyperoptic Champion for my building and I know that the Hyperoptic representative has indeed tried on multiple occasions to speak to my management who downright refused Hyperoptic. Management even admitted to me that they are fed-up of their phone calls but still remain stubborn. Never did I know the reason for it despite getting my 30+ neighbours of the building involved in registering their interest.

But it all depends. Your management may be more compliant than mine and might respect the registered interests. But this alone may not be enough if the management still ignores the wayleave request. The only difference this will make is draw the attention of the Altnet or wholesale network provider to look into building in your premise.

Hello,

Thanks for sharing so much info and your personal experience.

Yes the new Freeholder is Zeta GR Limited. They are happy to help. In fact, they offered to speak to any FTTP provider we want them to speak with.

So back to Openreach, the SDU homes to the left and right of my block of flats on the same street have just been provided Openreach FTTP, i.e. they are able to apply now. For my block it says Build planned between now and Dec-2026, it previously said Build planned between now and Dec-2025 so not sure what this means. Does this mean they still need wayleave?

Thanks again.

Since Zeta GR Limited are happy to speak to any FTTP provider then that should suggest that they are happy to grant wayleave and aren't trying to avoid the subject matter.

Are those SDU homes near your block of flats also managed and owned by Zeta GR Limited? If they are then there is indeed a real hope of you getting upgraded.

The delay from 2025 to 2026 may not always necessarily mean that they are still waiting for wayleave with the management. It could be some other obstacle near the street or some other complication that needs resolving. Maybe they need to survey and examine your building to see the route from, which the cables will travel.

The existing copper cables don't always follow the same line when Fibre is being built.

Have a look at https://bidb.uk/ and enter your postcode there you will see the map nearby with dotted colours. These colours show the roadworks on the map for different ISPs. If you then click on those dots it will give you a description of the fibre provider with the calendar date schedules.

Sometimes these can be delayed or not necessarily mean that those works are exactly applying for your building. But if you do see any scheduled works with their timings you may find engineers working near your street, you can ask them whether they are rolling out Fibre for your building.

For example, in my case I saw 2 years ago Community Fibre engineers installing near my street and just before the service did go live they were working inside my building and I saw them installing fibre cables. Few months ago I saw the same with Virgin Media following the wayleave agreement with my management. But they rolled out to several buildings near me managed by same housing estate but haven't yet completed in my building. Initially it showed as live for VM but few days later it disappeared. I guess they didn't complete the works fully.

Every once in a while if you look at the road works you may find new work schedules and that should give you an idea when the service will come to your building.