In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

In reply to a post by PhilipD:

Well the breach of contract is not supplying the service you have paid for. How long do you carry on waiting, 12 months, 18 months, 2 years?

You wait however long it takes, whether its 4 months or 4 years. It may come as a shock to you but install times of 2+ years were the norm when FTTPoD first came out around 2013. These lead times have been slashed massively in recent years, my own install took less than 4 months. However I was prepared to wait for longer if necessary. If you're of the impatient type, then FTTPoD isn't for you. Simples.

Btw majority of delays to FTTPoD installs are out of Openreach's control such as road closures which can only be done at certain times of the year (eg if outside a school) according to local council rules/regulations.

That really does miss all of the elements involved in unfair contract terms, doesn't it. For example look at the para 1.9 of the Unfair Contract Terms Guidance published by the OFt (online at https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/.... This reads:

" . . . .A disclaimer covering problems caused by a trader's suppliers or subcontractors is regarded in the same way as one covering loss or damage caused directly by his own fault. The consumer has no choice as to whom they are, and has no contractual rights against them. The business has chosen to enter agreements with them, and therefore should not seek to disclaim responsibility for their defaults."

I am no lawyer but I have to say that the man on the Clapham omnibus would see PhilipD's comments as perfectly reasonable and the basis on which the law should be applied.

Edit: PhilipD made a second equally valid contribution while I was typing.

But FTTPoD is sold without time guarantees (SLA) so if you're not prepared to wait for a reasonable amount of time - say up to 2 years - then you don't sign up for it. It really couldn't be simpler. The poster complaining about weekly updates has only waited for 8 months or so. That's right, 8 months. Hardly an excessive time frame.

At the same I realise no-can wait forever, so if for example after 3 years there wasn't an end in sight then I'm sure Openreach would refund you. Openreach's planners aren't stupid and know all too well they can't take someone's money and just not complete the order. I've yet to hear of a case where Openreach failed to fulfill a FTTPoD order but happy for you to prove me wrong.

Edited by deleted (Wed 05-Jun-19 17:37:14)

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

But FTTPoD is sold without time guarantees (SLA) so if you're not prepared to wait for a reasonable amount of time - say up to 2 years - then you don't sign up for it. It really couldn't be simpler.

So why have you decided that 2 years is a reasonable time? Other people may take a different view. If you read further into the document I linked in my last post, you will see that just because a seller specifically tries to circumvent what others would see as reasonable by making stipulations about what they will so or not do, that does not exclude them from action if such stipulations are unreasonable in the eyes of the law.

As usual "simples" will drive you to an untenable but at face value appealing answer that is more often than not wrong.

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

So why have you decided that 2 years is a reasonable time?

1) We're talking about FTTP, not getting a pair of made-to-measure curtains made.

2) When FTTPoD was first released, build times of >2 years were the norm. In fact some CPs - such as AAISP and Gradwell - stopped selling FTTPoD publicly as the install times were far too long.

3) When FTTP is built commercially, the planning & execution phase often takes years. So its perfectly reasonable having to wait up to 2 years for FTTPoD.

If someone took Openreach to court tomorrow saying for example, their 12 month wait for FTTPoD was too long, Openreach would simply refer to time frames of all their completed installs and the case would quickly be thrown out of court. Building a FTTP/FTTPoD network is often a long & time consuming process, anyone who thinks all FTTPoD builds can be completed in a matter of weeks or months clearly doesn't understand FTTP very well.

Edited by deleted (Wed 05-Jun-19 18:45:08)

Hi

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

If someone took Openreach to court tomorrow saying for example, their 12 month wait for FTTPoD was too long, Openreach would simply refer to time frames of all their completed installs and the case would quickly be thrown out of court.

So again you are deciding what the law should do, it is very arrogant of you. The court might decide that given the long lead times of past orders that the supplier should have pointed out the lead times more specifically in the contract.

As for Cerberus's contract, they state 120 working days is typical, then go on to say they take no responsibility for Openreach taking longer, and laughably, they say they take no responsibility if the service can't be delivered at all! It is an unfair contract, and if anything the court might throw themselves about laughing, rather than throw the case out of court.

Don't forget no one is suggesting taking Openreach to court, the contract isn't with them but with the supplier.

So if a contract stipulates 120 working days, and it's been 100% longer (a year) but still no delivery, would a court decide that is unreasonable and so a breach of contract? You don't know the answer neither do I, but whatever was decided, it wouldn't be laughed out of court.

I should point out I've nothing against Cerberus and have no quarrel with them, and I'm not aware of them treating anyone unfairly, they are just used as an example as it is Cerberus that seems to be spoken about a lot,and in mostly a positive light. Still the law is the law, contracts are contracts, and people should know they don't have to put up with unreasonable delivery times (sometimes years in the case of FTTP on Demand) for a service, especially where those lead times are not made clear and not agreed to in the contract.

Regards

Phil

Edited by deleted (Wed 05-Jun-19 18:57:20)

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

Btw majority of delays to FTTPoD installs are out of Openreach's control such as road closures which can only be done at certain times of the year (eg if outside a school) according to local council rules/regulations.

This is true, and I wholeheartedly agree with what you're saying - FTTPoD has no committed date and you have to be prepared to wait an unbounded period of time.

But oddly enough, if you buy a leased line, they will usually manage to get it installed within 45 working days.

I guess it just means that FTTPoD is given lowest possible commercial priority. Leased lines generate a lot more revenue in the long term, which of course is why most of us chose FTTPoD instead.

Cerberus state a minimum of 90 working days install time for FTTPod orders. Why is that so hard to understand?

"The estimated lead time to activation is a minimum of 90 working days from completion of planning work following the field survey.

Due to the variable nature of FTTPoD installations, the estimated lead time is for guidance only and is not subject to SLA."

https://www.cerberusnetworks.co.uk/connectivity-broa...

In reply to a post by PhilipD:

Hi
So again you are deciding what the law should do, it is very arrogant of you. The court might decide that given the long lead times of past orders that the supplier should have pointed out the lead times more specifically in the contract.

Unless the supplier has Mystic Meg's crystal bowl how can they be specific wrt build times? You clearly don't understand that you can't put a specific time frame on any FTTPoD build. There's many unknowns/variables involved.

Edited by deleted (Wed 05-Jun-19 19:02:13)

Hi

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

Cerberus state a minimum of 90 working days install time for FTTPod orders. Why is that so hard to understand?

"The estimated lead time to activation is a minimum of 90 working days from completion of planning work following the field survey.

Due to the variable nature of FTTPoD installations, the estimated lead time is for guidance only and is not subject to SLA."

https://www.cerberusnetworks.co.uk/connectivity-broa...

Their actual contract states "typical lead time of 120 working days". Have you read it?

The point is, you can't have an open ended contract where the customer must wait for an unreasonable and indefinite amount of time without any means of redress. It's an unfair contract.

No matter what you say, or how you dress it, you can't change these facts. Therefore a customer is legally entitled to take the supplier to court if they believe the contract is unfair and services have not been provided in a reasonable time period. What is reasonable we can argue about, but it isn't for us to decide.

You basically seem to have come around to the fact you could sue for breach of contract which is a start, and you have reduced your own decision on what is a reasonable time from 4 years to 2 years, not that you have a veto on what that time span is, so I guess we could call that progress

Regards

Phil

Hi

Unless the supplier has Mystic Meg's crystal bowl how can they be specific wrt build times? You clearly don't understand that you can't put a specific time frame on any FTTPoD build. There's many unknowns/variables involved.

That has no legal standing in contract law, unknowns and variables are not the customers problem, when will you understand that

Regards

Phil