In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by cymru123:

This means that once FTTP is available to you, your current provider may want to move you onto FTTP. Especially as Openreach have incentives to the provider for doing so e.g cheaper wholesale prices

But its not available to Adrian, and the whole thread is conjecture about what his current provider may or may not do, and what he may or may not do.

I gather from what you posted if you do absolutely nothing (e.g. let automatic price rises happen) and don’t choose to “recontract” or “upgrade” then its unclear if the provider will choose to cease/ terminate the service over FTTP. For most of us (with no sign of OR FTTP in town) this is likely a way off before we find out.

@jchamier I was just stating Openreach's expectations when Openreach Full Fibre is available and their copper product stop sell policy and expectations as the OP stated that Openreach Full Fibre is available to them and that Openreach are upgrading the area.

As for those customers in a stop sell exchange that don't switch providers, recontract or upgrade and just stay out of contract apart from the increasing costs to the customer the service provider would want to move across to a full fibre product as the cost to them would also increase and having to support a product with a reducing customer base. So there will be a tipping point where the service provider will eventually just migrate them for free a bit like what has been done for those customers still on ADSLx where a VDSLx or G.fast service is available (fibre to the cabinet).
Openreach will also be monitoring and trying to get providers and customers to move to full fibre when a stop sell is implemented in an area, as stated before by also providing providers incentives to do so.

The whole point of the Salisbury trial is to work out the best way to do mass migrations to Full Fibre and what processes and support may need to be put into place to enable this along with getting rest of Industry ready for the transition to full Fibre (FTTP). This trial ends soon where the copper network will be terminated in Salisbury. Openreach have been working and trialing out different levels of managed installs as part of this

Edited by cymru123 (Tue 27-Dec-22 15:19:41)

In reply to a post by jchamier:

I gather from what you posted if you do absolutely nothing (e.g. let automatic price rises happen) and don’t choose to “recontract” or “upgrade” then its unclear if the provider will choose to cease/ terminate the service over FTTP.

BT have previously offered "free upgrades" from ADSL to FTTC (even when FTTC offers lower speeds than ADSL!) and are likely to do the same with FTTC to FTTP. But you *can* still decline.

We are still a long way from the position where a CSP says "sorry, we're going to disconnect you on date X unless you change to this new service" (*). Existing customers are *far* more profitable than new customers, so it's much better to let them continue as-is rather than lose them completely.

CSPs won't terminate service until forced to by Openreach, and that in turn will only be when OFCOM permits them to do so - and that is not on the cards yet. The day will eventually come though.

Before then, I expect there will be lots of carrot and stick - i.e. massive increases in copper pricing, combined with special offers on FTTP pricing - for the refuseniks.

(*) Except for telephony of course. The PSTN *will* be turned off in Dec 2025, and that's all been agreed. If you refuse to plug in the router that your CSP sends you, or refuse to allow an engineer access to do it for you, then your phone line will go dead.

In reply to a post by cymru123:

The whole point of the Salisbury trial is to work out the best way to do mass migrations to Full Fibre and what processes and support may need to be put into place to enable this along with getting rest of Industry ready for the transition to full Fibre (FTTP). This trial ends soon where the copper network will be terminated in Salisbury. Openreach have been working and trialing out different levels of managed installs as part of this

This will be interesting to see how it goes, and if there is much ‘pushback’ as this thread implies

In reply to a post by candlerb:

BT have previously offered "free upgrades" from ADSL to FTTC (even when FTTC offers lower speeds than ADSL!) and are likely to do the same with FTTC to FTTP. But you *can* still decline.

We are still a long way from the position where a CSP says "sorry, we're going to disconnect you on date X unless you change to this new service" (*). Existing customers are *far* more profitable than new customers, so it's much better to let them continue as-is rather than lose them completely.

CSPs won't terminate service until forced to by Openreach, and that in turn will only be when OFCOM permits them to do so - and that is not on the cards yet. The day will eventually come though.

Before then, I expect there will be lots of carrot and stick - i.e. massive increases in copper pricing, combined with special offers on FTTP pricing - for the refuseniks.

(*) Except for telephony of course. The PSTN *will* be turned off in Dec 2025, and that's all been agreed. If you refuse to plug in the router that your CSP sends you, or refuse to allow an engineer access to do it for you, then your phone line will go dead.

@candlerb I believe some OFCOM consultation on this has been done back in 2020: https://www.ofcom.org.uk/consultations-and-statement...

Hence the policy notes under Openreach's copper withdrawal https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/retiring-t...

Snippit from OFCOM

Withdrawal of copper regulation would apply two years after Openreach gives
notification that it has completed ultrafast coverage of an exchange area. Notification could be
published when or after take-up of copper services is less than 10% of relevant premises in a
completed exchange, and only where measures are put in place to support vulnerable consumers.

The Salisbury trial will hopefully provide more information and potentially timelines but the stop sells are definitely driving towards this state

Edited by cymru123 (Tue 27-Dec-22 17:10:57)

In reply to a post by candlerb:

BT have previously offered "free upgrades" from ADSL to FTTC (even when FTTC offers lower speeds than ADSL!) and are likely to do the same with FTTC to FTTP. But you *can* still decline.

Is that BT Retail? Does sound sensible to offer people as many won’t be reading forums like this or proactively looking.

We are still a long way from the position where a CSP says "sorry, we're going to disconnect you on date X unless you change to this new service" (*). Existing customers are *far* more profitable than new customers, so it's much better to let them continue as-is rather than lose them completely.

That’s what I was thinking. It may cost a customer more money to stay and not re-contract, but each engagement with a customer is costly.

CSPs won't terminate service until forced to by Openreach, and that in turn will only be when OFCOM permits them to do so - and that is not on the cards yet. The day will eventually come though.

They will need to be able to eventually, but agreed, this isn’t yet defined.

(*) Except for telephony of course. The PSTN *will* be turned off in Dec 2025, and that's all been agreed. If you refuse to plug in the router that your CSP sends you, or refuse to allow an engineer access to do it for you, then your phone line will go dead.

Currently causing issues for friends of mine where they have different voice provider and data provider on the same copper!

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by cymru123:

The whole point of the Salisbury trial is to work out the best way to do mass migrations to Full Fibre and what processes and support may need to be put into place to enable this along with getting rest of Industry ready for the transition to full Fibre (FTTP). This trial ends soon where the copper network will be terminated in Salisbury. Openreach have been working and trialing out different levels of managed installs as part of this

This will be interesting to see how it goes, and if there is much ‘pushback’ as this thread implies

You might be interested in this research done by OFCOM as part of the trials: https://www.ofcom.org.uk/research-and-data/telecoms-...

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by candlerb:

BT have previously offered "free upgrades" from ADSL to FTTC (even when FTTC offers lower speeds than ADSL!) and are likely to do the same with FTTC to FTTP. But you *can* still decline.

Is that BT Retail?

Yes that's who I meant. There have been stories of ADSL->FTTC migrations on this forum.

Thanks for the link.

Post deleted by XGS_Is_On

In reply to a post by jchamier:

(*) Except for telephony of course. The PSTN *will* be turned off in Dec 2025, and that's all been agreed. If you refuse to plug in the router that your CSP sends you, or refuse to allow an engineer access to do it for you, then your phone line will go dead.

Currently causing issues for friends of mine where they have different voice provider and data provider on the same copper!

I guess they are in an area where FTTP is not available and they don't wish to cease xDSL on their line?

If FTTP (broadband only) was available and they had it successfully installed/activated then it would not be a problem to cease the xDSL and retain PSTN voice over copper for a while longer. However, in that scenario, I would imagine that it would not be possible to migrate the PSTN voice service to another provider after "stop sell" in September next year?