In reply to a post by The_Voyager:

Don't know if this has been answered elsewhere.
This thread has got me wondering, we are all Broadband people but what about people who do not have Internet of any kind, but do have home phone lines using BTs copper service, what will happen to them when BT removes the copper lines

They will be switched to digital voice, i.e. they will get a router with a phone socket, even if they don't need Internet.

This is already happening, and is actually taking place *before* the removal of copper. People who have copper analogue phone lines will be switched to FTTC or ADSL with digital voice. This process will be *completed* by December 2025, long before all properties have been switched to fibre.

As part of this process, from September 2023 it will be impossible to order a new analogue phone line or renew a contract for an existing one: this is the national "WLR stop-sell" (WLR = wholesale line rental).

This also means an end to the practice of paying for "line rental" with separate "broadband" on top, and being able to buy them from different providers. You will have to make a single order with a single supplier for your service, whether it be Internet only, (digital) voice only, or both.

Sadly, unlike the digital TV switchover, hardly anyone knows this is happening. On top of that, many of those that do get it mixed up with copper removal. Openreach *are* rolling out fibre, but the target is only 80% coverage by end of 2026, and there will be some properties on copper lines for many years after that.

In reply to a post by dragon2611:

Had a couple friends recently who had Openreach FTTP installed and in both cases Openreach have completely removed the copper lines regardless of existing VDSL service being in place (In At least one of those cases It was a new order NOT a migration)

Sounds ominous that the Openreach technician thought this was for BT Retail and that the voice service would move to BT's Digital Voice. Assumptions are dangerous, and for Openreach could be costly as others make clear.

Thanks, will do that search, I still class Openreach as BT, I used to work for them when we were civil servants as GPO International Telecommunications (but only as an operator/supervisor at Wren House next door to Faraday Building) shows how old I am

Thanks for the detailed answer, I'm one of the lucky ones that have Community Fibre in London, only had 3 outages in 3 years, and those down to cables being damaged elsewhere, and find the VOIP service via YayYay quite good.

Maybe BT and the other WLR companies need to start advertising what will be happening

In reply to a post by candlerb:

This also means an end to the practice of paying for "line rental" with separate "broadband" on top, and being able to buy them from different providers. You will have to make a single order with a single supplier for your service, whether it be Internet only, (digital) voice only, or both.

Which reminds me, weren't Ofcom supposed to announce this month the procedure to be able to port out your 'landline' phone number to a Third Party VoIP supplier, without it killing your broadband service ?

In reply to a post by candlerb:

They will be switched to digital voice, i.e. they will get a router with a phone socket, even if they don't need Internet..

Good explanation thank you.

Will customers still be able to use their own routers other than by double NAT?

(Or can the supplied routers with phone sockets be put into bridge mode for the ADSL or VDSL signals? )

Will customers still be able to use their own routers other than by double NAT?

If it's voice only (SOTAP) then no. Not seen any actual equipment but likely to be just a modem with a voice port and no access to the wider internet. iSPs could just use existing routers with a voice port

Edited by witchunt (Wed 12-Apr-23 11:14:37)

In reply to a post by witchunt:

Will customers still be able to use their own routers other than by double NAT?

If it's voice only (SOTAP) then no. Not seen any actual equipment but likely to be just a modem with a voice port and no access to the wider internet.

And if the customer has a VDSL or ADSL service then what?

In reply to a post by candlerb:

This also means an end to the practice of paying for "line rental" with separate "broadband" on top, and being able to buy them from different providers. You will have to make a single order with a single supplier for your service, whether it be Internet only, (digital) voice only, or both.

You posting about line rental reminded me of the letters I get from Zzoomm and also the adverts about Fibre broadband, when they say no paying for line rental, you will save £300 a year by not paying line rental, So you will think you will save £300 a year., but you don't. The price per month will still be the same price or more than what would be paid for FTTC and line rental. So it looks good until you look deeper into it.

I almost went for Zzoomm today, I went right through the ordering, even putting my direct debit details in, but bottled out when I went to pick the day to have it installed. They have a lot of days available.

In reply to a post by The_Voyager:

Thanks, will do that search, I still class Openreach as BT, I used to work for them when we were civil servants as GPO International Telecommunications (but only as an operator/supervisor at Wren House next door to Faraday Building) shows how old I am

Long before the 1984 privatisation then Lots of change since, Ofcom's regulation has forced Openreach to be 'structural separation' from the rest of BT Group, to ensure a level playing field over the 100+ year old network (including the ducts and poles). The future is interesting!