What have Orange done?

Up until tonight I have always had top speed on my ADSL2 broadband connection, sync'd above 19k kbits a sec and low line noise. Now, my sync is just under 7mb and I can download at 5 and a bit mbits a sec.
I am on an Orange LLU service and I remember getting an email a few weeks ago saying that Orange were upgrading some of the hardware in our exchange (SLARM).
Now looking on here it seems Orange have put me back on some ADSL Max rubbish that can only do 8meg because my exchange isnt 21cn enabled.... is that right?
Will be really peed off if they have.

Thanks

In reply to a post by markdixon:

I am on an Orange LLU service

You were on LLU, but they have moved you to either 21CN WBC ADSL2+ or 20CN IPStream ADSL Max, depending on the capability of your exchange.

In your case the latter, at least until Sept.

Your new Sync seems low. You should be getting the full 8 Meg, considering you have a short line based on the 19 Meg you got before.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Sat 25-Jun-11 02:50:34)

Hmm, Been reading about this for some time, i too am on Orange LLU equipment and it says on same knows that my exchange was due to upgraded to 21cn in march...it hasnt been done as far as i am aware. i enjoy a stable 19mb connection but fear the day when they change me over to 21cn.

a few months ago i recieved a call from Orange trying to sell me thier phone package, it was on that call the guy guarenteed me a constant 19mb connection without any drops......we will see if that is the case!

Yeah and they promised me on the phone that I would always be on LLU. Not!

Check if your IP addy starts with 91. = LLU or 2. = WBC.

Orange have done the same to me, promised me I would always be on LLU but I have been moved to IP Stream, used to get 3800kbps now lucky if I get 2600kbps, contention terrible at peak times can go to 600kbps. The Director of Operations, Harry Wilson, seems to think that this is an improvement. I have emailed Orange CEO Tom Alexander ([email protected]) to ask both him and Harry Wilson to explain how this is an improvement, the only response that I received has been from Ian Britton of the executive office and his reply was as much use as a fart in a spacesuit. I have been advised to make a complaint to CISAS and to write to OFCOM asking if Orange can treat customers like this. A simple query of the RIPE database (www.db.ripe.net) will tell you if you are still on LLU or, if like me, you have been dumped on IPStream. My exchange has been 21CN enabled since March yet Orange will not answer when (or indeed if) I will be moved from IPStream to 21CN, however from reading the posts on here it seems as if it wont make much of a difference. All Orange seem to say is have your MAC code in the vain hope that I will go away and stop bothering them. No chance of that for now as I aim to cause them as much grief as possible for the way I have been treated.

Just checked my IP address and it starts 95.150.x.x so not sure whats going on there.
Also got the ADSL status from my router:
Link Power State: L0
Mode: G.DMT
Channel: Fast
Trellis: ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 11.3 29.0
Attn(dB): 12.0 7.5
Pwr(dBm): 13.8 11.6
Max(Kbps): 9824 1292
Rate (Kbps): 8128 448

So this is something that Orange have done then and nothing I can do will change it?

Yep it is something that Orange has done and all they will do is offer to give you a MAC code, no apology for knowing months in advance that you were going to get screwed over either way, I have not read a post from anyone who says that their speeds are as good as or better (both upload and download) for either IPStream or 21CN as compared to Orange LLU. Your IP address puts you on IPStream (95.148.0.0 to 95.151.255.255 are all listed as OUK Broadband IPStream), which is all old [censored] BT equipment so it is hardly any wonder that your speeds have dropped so badly. Visit the BT speedtester to find out how much your line has been limited by compared to what you were getting before (if you have that information) and see what a joke Orange has become.

Hi Mark it looks like you are on the same exchange as me & I have had the exact same thing happen to me its a disgrace in my opinion, I got the call to ask if i was happy & would i like to take the phone deal 2 months ago which i did now im in IPstream hell with only about half the upload speed now & a loss of almost 3meg in download to what i was getting on the LLU service how Orange can call this an improved service is beyond me looks like i am stuck with it as well for the next 18 months or so to say I'm peed off is an understatement.

Steve

You are not stuck with the service, if you want to leave tell Orange why and ask for your MAC code, explain to them that you should not be expected to have to pay the same amount for a limited service that Orange were well aware of back when the deal was signed with BT http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/4215-orange-hand-... , if you want to you can complain to CISAS and perhaps OFCOM or better yet email the CEO of Orange Tom Alexander on [email protected] and ask him to explain why you have been treated in this way. You will probably find that Orange are not very sympathetic as all they want is for us to shut up and hand over the cash.

I too use the DGN1000. I am on my second one as the first one was useless, the second one is only slightly better, there is a firmware update out there but the router does not find it, you have to find it by going to the netgear website, this marginally improved things but now Orange does not want to know, despite a senior member of staff called Rob promising me a new router to partly compensate me for my problems (this was after they tried to palm me off with an Orange Livebox that only has 1 Ethernet port that works properly and had had at least 5 previous owners (possibly 6), this was evident from the number of stickers on the back which were changing the MAC code and password of the router.

I wish you all the best and if you want any more help on this matter please feel free to contact me. I feel that Orange should be publicly apologising to customers, not hailing a downgrade to our service as an improvement.

Not to sound defeatist but I can't see the point in emailing the CEO to have his PA send back an email saying they don't give a toss, if they even bother replying at all. Reporting to one of the governing bodies (OFCOM etc) seems more trouble than its actually worth because you'd need to keep chasing and following up for them to get anywhere. Orange aren't a small company. They will make sure everything they did was within the confines of the contract and we probably agreed on signing up with Orange that they could make changes to the service and they don't even have to give us a reacharound.
Out of the three main issues that have come about since the change;
1 the price remaining the same for a product worth less than half what it was before
2 The speed being less than half that is was before
3 How does this affect the monthly download limits?

It's point three that seems to have been missed previously. Does anyone know how this affects limits? I've been using the LLU ADSL2 for months and never had any issues with download allowances. Something tells me now that they might start monitoring...

In reply to a post by markdixon:

2 The speed being less than half that is was before

Only for those that were on LLU but their exchange is only 20CN.

If I got moved off ADSL2+ and onto IPStream, Id be seriously [censored] off, and theres no way I'd accept it. Its pretty disgraceful that Orange have even considered doing it - especially considering that the ADSL2+ equipment is still there I presume. At a minimum they should have offered (via letter) all affected customers (which I presume isn't a massive number) the chance to leave their contracts early if they wished. Have you tried ringing customer services about it? They aren't too bad in my experience, and Id be surprised if they didn't let you leave if you explained. If they don't want to play ball, then a small claims court letter regarding unfair terms would result in a speedy resolution I would have thought!

Btw I agree with your stance about writing to the CEO- its total waste of time - it just adds another step to it being given to the customer complaints dept. Do people seriously think that the Directors of these companies ever actually see these complaints?

Same thing happened to me, was syncing at 10mbit, since there isnt 21CN at my exchange, I got put on IPstream, so I moved straight away.

Leaving Orange isn't a problem. My 18 months was up ages ago but there are no other IPS's available to me that aren't just BTW re-sellers with ridiculous caps on their monthly limits. I enjoyed downloading whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted, playing online and watching [censored] on Youtube, BBC iPlayer, 4OD and ITV Player, all at the fantastic speed of 20Mbit.
I have never had to call cust. services because the service was rock steady and always worked.
So if I leave Orange I wont have anywhere to go that offers a product the same...

But, anyone had any dealings with this new Digital Region? Specifically Ripwire? I can get 40Mbit broadband from them aparently for £25 a month on an 18 month contract.

Orange is now just another BTW reseller. I have not had an amended FUP (not that I ever got a FUP from them before) despite asking for one (another complaint to bring up with CISAS). Forget trying to use YouTube, play games on Facebook, BBC iPlayer or any other streaming activity during peak times as the service is just about good enough for email (if the excuse for a router that Orange supplied does not randomly drop connection). If you are on IPStream then you will have exactly what any other reseller has and that is a seriously reduced service for the same cost as you were paying before. As I commented earlier I have never heard from anyone who experienced higher download and upload speeds when connected to 21CN as there still seems to be a performance hit compared to LLU. It seems that rather than comply with the Government promise to have us all on super-fast broadband BT have decided to go backwards by offering an inferior service, I might just have to dig out that old US Robotics V56 modem as the way Orange and BT are acting my broadband will be just as bad as dial up was.

"Orange is now just another BTW reseller"

Oh no they are not, if by BTW reseller, you mean firms like Zen, IDNet, Entanet and others.

Orange is now the same as Post Office and Vodafone who buy a white label service from BT Wholesale, i.e. BT Wholesale run the show, rather than with the Zen's etc who have more control over backhaul. BT Wholesale may actually answer the phone as Orange on support queries too now.

The aim of Orange is to turn off their LLU network with a view to saving money.

Complaining that you've gone from LLU to WBC or IPStream Max will get you nowhere, unless the result of this is a significant change in the service level, e.g. 19Meg down to a capped 8Meg, at which point you should be able to say contract is void.

To say all BT Wholesale based services are the same is incorrect, an ISP has a big influence on factors, including getting target margins and interleave settings change to get the most from a line. Also the amount of backhaul they buy will govern peak time behaviour.

Many apologies, I was indeed referring to white label services. I had the same problem with Sky who promised me the world to get me to sign up but then could not supply what they promised. A quick MAC code later and I went to Orange who promised me that things would be better and quoted me a line speed of 3Mbps, this has now dropped well below that mark. My point was that Orange should not be allowed to bill this as an "Improvement" and should not be able to get away with treating its customers in such an underhand and shoddy manner. Orange have refused to apologise, have not fixed my router problems and only seem interested in issuing me with a MAC code to get me to go away. I, on the other hand want answers to the questions that I have posed them, if Orange will not answer then perhaps WHICH? or Watchdog could ask the same questions on a more public forum and then maybe Orange would sit up and take notice. All I want is my service improved back to what I was getting before, Orange is now adamant that my line cant support anything faster than 2Mbps which is utter nonsense as proven by the links I have given them, BT have simply limited my line for no good reason yet Orange seem unable or unwilling to do anything about this. Had Orange dropped the price of their package accordingly then I would not feel the need to complain as much but when they demand the same amount for a far inferior service I feel that they are extracting the urine just a bit. All I want is a bit of compensation, a router that is as described and that works, unlike their current offering which is a DGN1000.

I think that Orange assumed that a reduction from their old standard SNRM of 10db to the BT standard 6db would lead to an improvement. That's OK, but an automated DLM needs some human intervention, it's not God. Unfortunately, I can only conclude from their behaviour across Orange's activities, that the management of the hived-off UK Orange have no understanding of quality of service, words which are not in their vocabulary.

Orange's staff do what they can and I don't believe are moronic, but are stuffed as much as the customers by the management's absolute hostility to spending time or money on QoS issues. They live in a timewarp believing customers are sheep, herded in by so-called clever marketing, that is, catchy phrases: you'll all believe that Orange are "no tricks, all treats" because they smilingly tell you so, and you believe that they are committed to the best customer service, and never doubt it for a moment when they don't answer the phone for 45 minutes! Any one remember the tale of the emperor who had no clothes?

You have to play Orange at their own game, and if you can screw them more than they screw you, all well and good, well sort of. I've had phone rental, broadband (more or less) and free calls for £15pm for over 4 years. My phone line has problems maintaining the 6Mbps I know its capable of once Oranges/BTs DLM intervened and seems to get stuck, but still I've been suckered in to ordering Plusnet FTTC (seems the cheapest again) now it's just become available at the cab, which they estimate at 25Mbps download with an amazing quoted errror in the estimate of +/- 1Mbps. Sounds too good to be true on my line but hey I'm with Orange so I believe in fairytales!

EDIT: After several years experience, my rule of thumb with the new Orange is to think of them as the old British Leyland cars: they have the occasional good idea and could be brilliant, but not often; and always behind the curve. And for service you'll get what you're given.

Edited by deleted (Sat 02-Jul-11 10:37:09)

In reply to a post by smurf46:

I think that Orange assumed that a reduction from their old standard SNRM of 10db to the BT standard 6db would lead to an improvement.

Have you any evidence of that 6dB on Orange? They're holding me at 12

Personal experience: mine was initially 11 on the transfer to WBC and reduced over the training period and then hovered between 5.8-6 for the next six weeks or so. Then, unfortunately, I rebooted the router and it was back to 11 and is more slowly reducing, currently has got down to 8 after several weeks. (Apart from my accidental reboot, the connection is stable. On Orange LLU I was always around 10, though the speed was steadily reduced after each occasional PPP server fault - and never picked up - to less than half of what WBC manages even with an 11db SNRM).

On an att of 48-50, 10/11db gives me 4.5Mbps sync rate on WBC (previously went down from 5 Mbps to 4Mbps then stuck at 2Mbps on Orange LLU); 6dB gives a more satisfactory sync rate of 5.5-6Mbps.

Edited by deleted (Sat 02-Jul-11 13:38:32)

The problem is smurf, I've been through all the major providers and the same can be said about all of them. So in the end it comes down to price - and Orange seem to do pretty well in that dept.
I read their press release about them abandoning LLU, and apparently the money they will save will be invested in customer service, so it looks like they realise theres an issue, and are willing to spend money on it.
Since I signed up to Orange (BB will be connected this Wednesday), all the customer service has been great, but tbh its technical support I value more. Nothing worse than going through the usual "turn in on and off again" script for 40 minutes when you know what an issue is already. Hopefully my connection and speed will be problem free and I wont have to call the tech support line!

The only advice I'd give is it's worth reading the advice on their website and following it as appropriate. I've always told their CS that I've done all the website tests without success, and we've moved on to the next stage: with variable results but in the past they've usually done something though they took their time about it. EDIT: If their technical support is now provided by BT (sounds like Orange) then it can't be any worse can it?

Their PR machine are masters of the misuse of English: I hope investing in CS doesn't just mean getting new sigups, and isn't like their taking advantage of the gap in Ofcom's Code on Speeds that doesn't cover customers whose speed is downgraded by their ISP and depends on how they choose to package their services!! It's a fine line between slick and underhand. I agree that successful businesses are the former.

Edited by deleted (Sat 02-Jul-11 21:50:27)