Problems with FAX

Whilst not really related to broadband in any way, there might be someone here with the knowledge to assist me.

My fax machine is failing to receive anything on one on my lines (Lets call it line A), this line has broadband and redcare on it for the alarm system, the fax is plugged into an MCD.

I've removed the filter and attempted plugging directly into this line, without broadband active and the results are the same. I've tried plugging the MCD into my other line (Line B) and whilst I know the MCD isn't needed unless Redcare is active on the line, I like to think it has allowed me to eliminate it from being faulty as the Fax machine can receive fine whilst connected to Line B through the MCD.

So I have eliminated the Fax machine being faulty, the filter being faulty and the MCD being faulty, I've done a quiet line test just to listen to the line for anyone unusual blips or chirps from the Redcare system but I cannot hear anything.

What can I do and who do I contact for help?

Just some ideas ...

Can the Fax m/c send on Line A?

If you transfer the phone cable from your Fax m/c to your PC's modem socket, can you make a phone call from the PC using the Phone Dialler?

Bradband and I believe Redcare can work with one leg disconnected but telephony will not.

You need to see if telephony works on the line - if it does not then there is possibly a line fault.

Yeah, right! I was forgetting. Just plug a phone into Line A rather than using the PC

I've dialled 17070 and done option 2 so I can listen for anything on the line so telephony does work fine.

As for sending, I think it's ok and doesn't usually fail, why would only receiving fail (the senders fax is verified as working)?

Can you dial a pukka #? It may be BT Service #s are allowed but not others.

Just phone Line B from Line A, e.g.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Fri 10-Sep-10 00:23:53)

Who supplies your voice service on line A?
Who supplies the broadband on line A?
Have you tried a different filter? Preferably not the other one of the two that most likely came in the box from your ISP.

Just called my mobile from line A and it rang fine.

Line A is BT, the ISP is Entanet, I've tried removing the filter from the equation by plugging directly into the socket and it still doesn't work.

Is it just the one remote fax machine that is having trouble sending to yours?

How far through the process does it get? i.e. does your fax answer the call at all? does it manage to complete the handshake? or does it bail out half way through receiving?

No, it's multiple machines.

It doesn't get past the handshake stage, occasionally it will start receiving page 1 then bail, or receive 1 page and bail on the second.

To me that would indicate redcare's chirps are somehow interfering, but I've listened with a phone connected through the MCD and there's no odd noises which could break the fax transmission.

Edited by deleted (Fri 10-Sep-10 09:46:16)

Redcare ~shouldn't~ interfere - at least not these days. I remember years ago (must be 10+), Redcare would interfere with DSL, faxes and PDQ machines but then BT revamped Redcare and the problem went away.

Very odd.

Just thinking in dial-up modem terms - do you have the option in your fax settings to cap the baud rate the fax connects at? It will make sending / receiving faxes slower but may make it more reliable. More of a workaroud than a solution mind.

Also thinking back to dial-up days - asking BT to increase (or possibly reduce) the gain on the line may help. Not sure if they still do this - but back in the day you could talk to faults and they would happily alter it - usually with a slightly sarcy comment along the line of "having problems with dial up speeds sir?".

I've set the baud rate as low as 9600bps but it still fails, I will see if I can borrow a 56k modem off someone and try to dialup with that.

Would be interesting if only to see what speed it manages to negotiate, if any at all.

As you say sometimes it bails out on the first or second page it is managing to negotiate sometimes at least.

It's also very odd that it can send faxes fine. Can it send faxes to the same machines that it fails to receive from?

Shot for nothing - if both your master sockets are NTE5 - try swapping the faceplates over.

Have you tried a different lead from the fax to the telephone socket? They are usually standard but some manufacturers do mess with the pinouts to frustrate us when we least need it

The very same cable from the fax works in the other socket, I have no master, it's just a double fronted thing.

I just tried sending it single page fax to a test number and it went fine, it's all very odd.

Does the light on the MCD start flashing or remain solid when the receive fails?

It remains Solid, if I plug directly into the line with a phone should I be able to hear any chirps because I can't?

Things I've tried this morning with my friends fax machine. Below applies for both sending and receiving.

Line A:
Connected directly without MCD - fail
Connected with MCD - fail
Connected through MCD and filter - fail

Line B:
Connected through MCD - no dialtone
Connected directly - success

However I successfully sent a fax to a fax to email service, and received one back whilst on Line A.

But sending/receiving to a proper machine on Line A never works, Line B works just fine.

I've gained some error codes from the fax machine.

Here's one when sending:
There is too much noise on the line for a valid connection between two fax machines to complete. The noise problem might go away over time.

Here's one when receiving:
Telephone line conditions were too poor to receive a fax.

Put there's nothing actually wrong to my ear, and faxes only use audible voice spectrum anyway?

Might be worth seeing if the BT Redcare peeps can suggest anything.

Haven't used it for ages but it should still be valid.
BT redcare helpdesk on: 0800 671 240.

Apologies if this has been mentioned.

Have you tried a different MCD ??
My brother had a similar issue at the family office and it turned out to be the MCD even though it appeared to be working ok.

Yep - could very well be the MCD going out of specification over time - usually down to poor quality capacitors breaking down.

Does redcare require the orange bell wire to be connected? I've noticed in the master NTE upstairs, it is connected to both sides.

I actually don't know the answer to that. Most things don't these days.

What do you mean by "connected to both sides"?

When i took the lower half of the master socket off, there were 2 sets of 3 wires crimped in two separate 'bits', I presume these are two extensions but this didn't disconnect the extension in the office, but could still be inducing noise into A and B wires.

So how is the office extension connected? Directly to the incoming terminals at the rear of the backplate?

That's the question, I guess it must be but I can't tinker again now until Monday, and next time I need to get them to suspend Redcare monitoring because alarm co called as I inadvertanty disconnected the alarm (it appears to be an extension).

I don't know where else the line would be picked up from, I need to remove the bell wire from the office extension as removing one end isn't enough.

I've discovered another problem with a high number of errors on the dsl which I previously considered as normal, Line B which has been enabled today connects 1.5meg faster and has no HEC or FEC errors.

Not that it would be legal to do so - if it is connected to the rear of the backplate (the incoming A and B terminals) I'd disconnect it from there and attach it to the faceplate.

Simple enough job with a cheapo punch down tool. Although - didn't you mention something about it having a dual outlet faceplate - or was that on line B?

Maybe a couple of photos - of faceplate and wiring to faceplate might shed some light.

And yep the redcare will be wired in as an extension.

The link to the BT92A (Redcare block by the alarm panel) *should* be via a single direct pair terminated on the rear incoming points of the NTE, so that it can't be diconnected by the removal of the faceplate.

Zarjaz - if you read the post above my last one you will note that the OP states that the redcare is curently connected as an extension to the faceplate.

It is an extension socket connected to the A & B incomer terminals.

Clearly not right.

It makes sense to connect the redcare to the A & B incomers so that you can mess around with your internal wiring without triggering the monitoring alert. It's hardly a security thing though - far easier to spend a moment with a pair of wire snips than mess around with a screwdriver removing the faceplate if you have a nefarious reason for disconnecting the redcare.

In reply to a post by GeeTee:

far easier to spend a moment with a pair of wire snips than mess around with a screwdriver removing the faceplate if you have a nefarious reason for disconnecting the redcare.

Snip the Redcare connection and the alarm goes off at the police station. Just like it did when they took the faceplate off in this case.

@Zarjaz - Doesn't there need to be a filter at the alarm control box though?

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 11-Sep-10 23:21:43)

Yes there should be a filter in the alarm panel.

I know. Just pointing out that having it connected to the A & B incomers is not particularly beneficial - other than not having to remember to notify the alarm monitors before messing around with your internal cabling.

No, no filter required on a Redcare alarm.

Quick question, where is the redcare heartbeat generated from, is it the exchange end or the premesis? Just wondering if having the Redcare extension disconnected would prove anything?

Thought you did if the the line also has ADSL.

The exchange end, if there is no reply from the STU, an alarm is generated to say comms is down at the monitoring company.

I've been doing some testing today and have found the office line is indeed wired into the back of the master.

Now bear in mind the STU is disconnected from that socket at the moment.

I've plugged in the MCD directly into the test socket with the fax, and it still fails to handshake with the fax at the other end.

I've plugged a phone into the MCD and I can hear chirps, now depending on what controls the chirp response depends whether or not this is a problem...

Is it the exchange end that detects the off-hook state and suspends the chirps or is it the STU?

No.

The answer is actually - sometimes, depending on which Redcare is installed.

Ref:
http://www.redcare.bt.com/partner/broadband_compat.htm

There is no need for connection of an ADSL filter for both BT Redcare Classic and BT Redcare GSM. For BT Redcare Agile installations it is necessary for the connection of an ADSL filter on the secondary path.


Ref:
http://www.redcare.bt.com/security/installers/guide/...

(bottom of page 9 of manual)
If ADSL is being used on the line, make sure that the Titan unit is connected through a suitable ADSL filter (obtainable from BT Redcare).