What can I do to get a faster connection?

Philips SNA6500 Router using Demon
Upstream: 448k/18db/63db (Speed/SNR/Attenuation)
Downstream: 1856k/12db/49db

These are my current stats (this is the fastest I've seen it connect for a long time, it's normally in the 1400-1700k range). It tends to connect fastest if I turn the router on during the day rather than the evening but the SNR will get lower in the evening. However on occasions the connection almost completely drops and when I check the stats it's sometimes connecting at speeds as low as 160k, if I reset the router it usually reconnects at normal speeds. I have asked BT to test the line several times and they always say there is nothing wrong with it, however if I press a button on the phone there is always a slight noise in the background.

I only live 1.7km as the crow flies from the exchange but I seem to think I live 4-4.5km by phone line (is this sort of increase normal). My exchange has Sky and Orange unbundled, if I moved to one of them is there any chance my connection would get faster (I take it moving to any other BT ADSL provider would have no effect.)

I can't test using the master socket as I live in an old house and the main socket where the line comes into the house is ancient, however if I plug into the main socket I get similar speeds.

What can I do to stop the connection failing (usually when the weather gets bad) and is there anything I can do to increase my normal speed?

Thanks

On that attenuation I would expect well over 4Mbps, possibly over 5Mbps.

It would be useful to see a set of stats taken immediately after a reconnection.

You are right so say a move to another non-LLU would not sort things, but I doubt if LLU would do so properly either unless it is the BT exchange equipment at fault.

Re phone noise, if you disconnect all broadband equipment, then plug a phone into the master and try the quiet line test. 17070 Option 2. Preferably use a corded phone not a DECT one.

If you have a definite noise on that test then report it to your phone provider. Do not mention broadband, just that there is noise on your phone line.

If an engineer has to visit to fix a noise fault he should fit a new NTE5 master socket to replace the old one you have and this should be free of charge.

If any noise fault gets fixed your broadband should improve a bit over the following few days and a lot over the next few weeks. Have a browse of the BT DLM, BT IP Profiles, Noise Margin and Troubleshooting sections of my website for a lot of explanation of how things work.

Do a line test as said but don't do it with a cordless phone
My money is with the wiring as its so old

Taking a different tack to address your question, can you get FTTC on your exchange? If this is an option for you it will give a much greater improvement in line speed, and will also result in a new master socket being fitted too.

I can't get BT Infinity or cable and there don't appear to be any plans for either (which is strange given that I live in an urban area and there are villages getting fibre)

I just did the quiet line test before and after unplugging everything and the noise doesn't change, it is a very slight buzz, almost like a very quiet dialling tone. I used a corded phone as my cordless phones have a fair bit of interference anyway.

I have got BT to do line tests before (this buzz is nothing new) and they always say there is no problem and that I will have to pay to get an engineer out. If everything else is unplugged and I am plugging my corded phone into the main socket is it definitely the BT line at fault, not my own wiring. At what point does it become my wiring and not BTs given that my phone socket is so old. Also is it normal that my upstream attenuation is so much larger than the downstream?

Cut your phones bell wire, should give you at least 1mbps more.

Upstream: 448k/18db/63db (Speed/SNR/Attenuation)

That upstream attenuation figure doesn't look quite right/possible somehow.

In reply to a post by Apprentice:

Upstream: 448k/18db/63db (Speed/SNR/Attenuation)

That upstream attenuation figure doesn't look quite right/possible somehow.

That is what the router is reporting, it is a few years old though.

In reply to a post by astoria555:

What can I do to get a faster connection?

I can't test using the master socket as I live in an old house and the main socket where the line comes into the house is ancient, however if I plug into the main socket I get similar speeds.

Depending on your setup and options, it might be worth considering if any of the 'ancient' kit can be upgraded.

A couple of close-up photos of the existing masket socket setup will tell us if there's anything obvious amiss, or if the kit should be changed.

If you did a test from the last point the cable comes into your house and still hear buzzing on the quiet line test then you have a problem.
Old or new bt still have to investigate and it could be that they need to fit a new face plate to get rid of the noise.
Just be sure You do the test from the last point with nothing else using the line, then report you have a buzz on the line
You will always get the [censored] about it will cost if no fault is found, but the fact you can hear noise and so will the engineer when he comes out means there is a fault

This is a photo of what I assume must be the master socket.

http://img508.imageshack.us/i/img00002201101051717.jpg

There is definitely a noise on my line with my corded phone regardless of which phone socket I plug it, I will try and check with another corded phone.

Having read around the subject of attenuation a bit it seems impossible that my upstream attenuation is 63db and my downstream is 49db, is it possible the router has mixed them up. Would a 63db+ downstream attenuation be more realistic for a 4kmish line? If I upgrade the router it would seem logical to switch to sky or orange so I get it for free, are either of the routers that come with these services considered better than the other?

I would say that's more like it with the attenuation
You could stay right next door to the exchange but your line goes via a long route before it gets to the exchange, and unless you can get bt to stick you on a better pair then nadda ya can do

In reply to a post by astoria555:

This is a photo of what I assume must be the master socket.

http://img508.imageshack.us/i/img00002201101051717.jpg

The only way to be sure is to look inside, and while you have it open perhaps gently remove a wire.

Open it up and have a look which of these it is. If it is a 1A, the ones with the cylindrical capacitor, then that is the master.

Your extension(s) may or may nor be connected to those connectors you can see. If they are, then gently remove any on T3 - make sure you check the numbers! The ones that do the work are T2 and T5. T3 is the ring wire that was mentioned earlier, but cutting it is not recommended. Just disconnection.

There is definitely a noise on my line with my corded phone regardless of which phone socket I plug it, I will try and check with another corded phone.

Is your phone line rental with BT? If so, and you get a clued-up person at the other end the correct price for getting that master replaced by an NTE5 is around £25, perhaps plus Vat. If you can get that organised at that price, the engineer who does it will automatically be checking the line from your end. Maybe worth thinking about?

If you try that the "non-clued-up" may tell you it is £170 or so for a callout . If that happens, come back here and one of us will give you the link to the BT Openreach price list, but I don't have it to hand sorry and it can take a bit of finding.

Its about £30 for the socket but you are now also charged for the call out, £80 plus vat if i read right

In reply to a post by iwish:

Its about £30 for the socket but you are now also charged for the call out, £80 plus vat if i read right

No - that's the whole point.

Unless things have changed in the last six months - so where did you read it?

i am almost positive this fee is for what is known as a discon recon. its to change out the terminal that went with the old old old non rj11 dial phones. it is not to simply replace a master, even if it is to engineer out star wiring etc etc

so be very careful with that one

OK, transpires I was wrong about the master socket, my master socket was actually hidden behind my filing cabinets. I moved them and connected my router straight to it with everything else disconnected and still no increase in speed, the corded phone still has the buzzing when plugged into it to.

There is an orangey brown wire in terminal 3 in both my master and an extension socket, should I remove both of these? Also my master has a green wire in terminal 4 and a different extension socket has a white wire in 4, is it safe to remove all of these, do I just yank them out? Everything else is on 2 and 5.

I can post photos of these up if you need to see them.

Thanks

Edited by deleted (Wed 05-Jan-11 20:07:52)

In reply to a post by astoria555:

I can post photos of these up if you need to see them.

It might be best. Advice on 'yanking out wires' should be given only with the best of information.

Edited by camieabz (Wed 05-Jan-11 20:49:50)

In reply to a post by camieabz:

It might be best. Advice on 'yanking out wires' should be given only with the best of information.

"It" meaning photos .

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by camieabz:

It might be best. Advice on 'yanking out wires' should be given only with the best of information.

"It" meaning photos .

Edited.

http://img266.imageshack.us/i/mastere.jpg (Master)
http://img833.imageshack.us/i/img00005201101051854.jpg (Extension 1)
http://img714.imageshack.us/i/img00008201101051859.jpg (Extension 2)

Edited by deleted (Wed 05-Jan-11 22:23:12)

That looks a mess, I only have wire 2 and 5 in use
No idea why you have so many wires doubled up on your extensions and using all connectors
The more i look at your master the more it looks like some one has used electrical cable to wire up one of your extensions

Edited by deleted (Wed 05-Jan-11 23:16:26)

Based on those pics, I would go with Roberto's advice above:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Re phone noise, if you disconnect all broadband equipment, then plug a phone into the master and try the quiet line test. 17070 Option 2. Preferably use a corded phone not a DECT one.

If you have a definite noise on that test then report it to your phone provider. Do not mention broadband, just that there is noise on your phone line.

If an engineer has to visit to fix a noise fault he should fit a new NTE5 master socket to replace the old one you have and this should be free of charge.

See if you can swing a free NTE5 installation. If the engineer is that good, ask him to take a peek at the extensions too, and see what his opinion of them is. The advice should be free too.

With regards your question of at which point the wiring become yours, it's quite simple. All the wiring into the master socket from outside of the house is BT's. Any extension wiring is your own. It's illegal to change the faceplate yourself (many do though). If a replacement doesn't have a BT logo, it's not legal in BT's view.

Personally if the BT replacement charge was less than £100 I would pay. If it were more, I would do it myself. That's me though.

While you have the opportunity, consider any wiring you might want to have removed, or if you want to have a faceplate (assuming you get a new NTE5 master put in). You can filter the broadband via the faceplate, so that extentions do not require seperate filtering (I'm guessing you have to do this with your current setup, based on the current master plate. You might have a few options. Have a think about your ideal setup and post it, and see if it's possible. Easier to plan it before you get BT involved.

you can remove any wires except 2 and 5.worst that can happen is yo may lose and old phones ability to ring.

correct me if i am wrong but both your extensions have 2 pairs attached to them, therefore you must have another extension socket somewhere which you are unaware off.

the odd one out being the wht/blue wht/orange

id suggest following that and tracing where it goes first

In reply to a post by andyboygsi:

you can remove any wires except 2 and 5.worst that can happen is yo may lose and old phones ability to ring.

correct me if i am wrong but both your extensions have 2 pairs attached to them, therefore you must have another extension socket somewhere which you are unaware off.

?
Perhaps both the extensions have a spur attached, not just one?

Also what is a green wire doing attached to either T2 or T5 in the master? (I can't tell which it is as I can't see the numbers, but you will know). It doesn't seem to go anywhere. It looks to be part of the grey-sheath cable, the one on the one "above" it in the photo being from the white-sheathed.

The green(s) in Ext 1 could also be from two cables, or may be from one and detached/twisted away.

OK, I've pulled everything in my master and all 3 extension sockets (I didn't mention one before) that isn't on terminal 2 or 5, there has been a slight increase in connection speed, approximately 250k. I have also worked out what is causing the noise on the line, one of my extension sockets actually seems to run on an extension lead that was previously permanently plugged into the master. Removing this gets rid of most of the noise on the line (still a very faint hum) but my connection speed doesnt seem to change whether it's plugged in or not. I am currently connected at 2176k even though this extension was plugged in to the master, on the previous reset it was unplugged and the connection was 1984k.

I wonder if my router's reported SNR is extremely inaccurate, it seems to jump around constantly, it seemed to connect at 15db just now but in the few minutes I've been writing this it has been every number between 10 and 15db when I have checked it. Because of this it's extremely hard to know what the exchange has my target SNR set at but I presume it must be 12db or 15db, could I ask Demon or BT to lower it?

For most line noise margin should be fairly steady during daylight, then drop over a while at dusk, and have bigger variances then and through the night, gradually returning to day-time "normal" during dawn.

The margin falls because the actual noise rises. Because the noise is higher, and connection made during dusk >> dawn will be lower than a daytime one. The margin is reset to the exchange figure at each re-sync, but the noise is the noise is the noise at the time.

Avoid anything approaching ten re-syncs in an hour!

However the expected night-time margin fall is a lot less than 6dB, otherwise the default connection-time setting would be higher than 6dB. So you do still seem to have excess noise somewhere.

What do you mean by this: "one of my extension sockets actually seems to run on an extension lead that was previously permanently plugged into the master"? Do you mean the plug was cut off the end and the wires inserted through the side?

Any idea what that green wire I mentioned earlier does? And any explanation for the extra wires at the extensions? If you think about it, each should have one pair going to the master, though it is possible to daisy-chain one off another. Even given that setup, there should be one at the end of the chain with just one pair. (Pair = T2 and T5, I'm ignoring T3 and others).

I did the following to get the speeds I get.

Cut the bell wire - eventually installed a face plate filter.

Checked the chipset on my router and matched it to the one in the exchange. I had a Netgear DG834GT running on dgteam firmware with a tweakable SNR. That died so I now have a DG834PN. This gained me a meg.

My line used to run at 3.1Mb. It now runs at 5.6Mb (stable at 3db SNR) and I can wind it upto 7.1Mb during the day on a 2db SNR. Winding it up is not beneficial on BT but on an LLU service it would be.

My line attenuation is 49db down 27db up.


Hope this helps.

I think the target SNR margin has probably been increased, most likely due to previous bad line quality and disconnections.

What I meant was that the master had an extension cable plugged into it (the master was behind some filing cabinets I had to move) and when I unplugged this cable the audible noise on the line was quieter and one of the extensions didn't work.

AFAIK the only sockets that exist are the master, two extensions, this third extension that appears to plug into the master and we also have a burglar alarm that somehow connects to the alarm though I'm not sure how.

The photos I uploaded were of the master, extension 1 always works and extension 2 is the one that appears to be connected to a cable that plugs into the master. There is also another extension socket that was installed with our extension that I didn't upload a photo of. Here it is:

http://img529.imageshack.us/i/ext3.jpg

Is that an ADSL2+ router, my router is only a normal ADSL one yet my exchange has been upgraded, would that offer an improvement on a line as poor as mine. Did you get that router free with any particular provider, it looks like Sky used to provider a Netgear one, do they still?

Edited by deleted (Thu 06-Jan-11 18:08:39)

In reply to a post by astoria555:

I think the target SNR margin has probably been increased, most likely due to previous bad line quality and disconnections.

This will almost certainly be true.

... and we also have a burglar alarm that somehow connects to the alarm though I'm not sure how.

Bingo! I assume you mean "manages to connect to the phone"?

That needs a filter fitted at the control box end, and I will lay odds it doesn't have one. Was it installed before or after you got broadband?

Another thought - do you have a Sky box?

It looks like you have a split pair on the master socket, can't tell which cable it goes to but the pairs are orange / blue and green / brown, where you appear to have 2 blues in one terminal and an orange and green.

Someone actually came round to the house to fit a filter to the alarm before we got broadband. I do have a Sky box but no longer leave it plugged in as out of contract, it used to have an extension cable that plugged into one of the sockets.

I guess I have star wiring as everything is so old so looks like the best thing I could do is have a new NTE5 plate fitted so that I can just run the broadband straight from that.

What is a split pair, is that likely to be causing interference?

Edited by deleted (Thu 06-Jan-11 19:55:03)

Telephone wiring works using pairs of wires twisted together throughout the cable length, these twists help cancel out interference picked up by the wires, a split pair means that the two wires are not twisted and so act independently and can actually cause more problems.