BT Infinity is this exclusive to BT? or other ISP?

Have just had the news that BT Infinity for my line will be ready sometime in April. I am tempted purely for the speed as on ADSL now lucky to get 1mb and BT are saying 35MB should be possible with Infinity. My question is : I'm assuming BT are changing the copper line to FTTC? If so will my curent or any other ISP be able to provide a service using the fibre or do you have to go with BT to take advantage of the fibre line?

Infinity is BTs name for their service offering, your free to choose an ISP that is currently offering FTTC packages. Some big names aren't quite yet, but there are ISPs out there like entanet that do offer FTTC.

ISPs offering FTTC services :-

http://www.robertos.me.uk/html/isps_offering_fttc.html

Yarwell has kindly given you a link to my list. You will also find the owner page of that one is a description of how FTTC works, as your existing copper connection to your existing cabinet is still used.

The result is your attenuation is over the distance to your cabinet (plus a few metres), not to the exchange.

The only problem you have is that Infinity is cheaper than all the alternatives. This is apparently to do with how BT Broadband connects to the system at their end.

The good things about the other ISPs is that:

- most will accept orders a bit below the 15Mbps estimate level that BT Infinity cannot be ordered below, though if the connection speed at install time is below the 15Mbps limit the installation is aborted on any supplier;

- they often make it available as soon as your cabinet is enabled, whereas Infinity may be later due to marketing plans or sheer BT inertia, (though the time difference may only be a couple of weeks);

- most are preferable to BT in many people's eyes;

- possibly shorter contracts than BT.

Thank you for all this info. I now have a better understanding of what to expect.

Please don't go with BT Infinity!

Please don't go with BT Infinity!

Care to expand? Its working well for me, has been for around 6 months without a problem. The pricing and usage limit make it very competitive unless you have niche requirements.

In reply to a post by New_Londoner:

Please don't go with BT Infinity!

Care to expand? Its working well for me, has been for around 6 months without a problem. The pricing and usage limit make it very competitive unless you have niche requirements.

Same.

In reply to a post by orly:

In reply to a post by New_Londoner:

Please don't go with BT Infinity!

Care to expand? Its working well for me, has been for around 6 months without a problem. The pricing and usage limit make it very competitive unless you have niche requirements.

Same.

Exactly.

I would never go near or recommend BT Broadband ADSLx products, or even the BT Wholesale ones from another ISP unless unavoidable.

But as our cabinet should be going live within the next couple of weeks, with my usage of around 20GB pm with occasional TV or radio catchup and maybe snooker/tennis/cricket from sheer laziness as the TV is the other end of the room, Infinity does look by far the best option and by far the cheapest.

> Infinity does look by far the best option and by far the cheapest.

Mutually exclusive, surely?

There must be a reason that they are cheapest. Somewhere corners are being cut. I don't know where, but BTR aren't offering a cheaper package because they love us and want us to be happy.

Rational customers in the economic landscape have to assess quality and performance, not just price.

Do you really want to be one of the statistics when BTR boast how many people have come back to them for "Infinity"?

--
Sploog

Apparently they have some "cheaper to them" connection for actually feeding stuff to you, as opposed to the standard WBC link from your exchange to them.

See this post, (once you realise "by" means "buy"), Central Pluses being the reason BT latency was so good.

As for becoming a statistic, from what I see on these forums there seem to be no real problems with Infinity.

Neither your post nor New_Londoner's gives any reason whatsoever for recommending against it.

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 21-Jan-11 17:40:47)

Have always been with BT sometimes getting the right person to deal with a problem takes time, but so far have always managed to resolve any problems and been compensated for problems and missed dates.

Since being on fibre no problems actual speed exceeds predicted speed 95% of the time.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

There must be a reason that they are cheapest.

Realistically, BT are making no money off Infinity at this stage. With free installs, free hub/modem and the cheap monthly price it's just a business decision to get as many of the early adopters on board ASAP before the other ISPs get their houses in order. Couple it with the costs of the actual fibre infrastructure and you can see they're not going to be turning a profit on FTTC for a while. Obviously BT has the resources to absorb this in a way most other providers/ISPs do not.

Bad points:

- Traffic shaping
- Homehub
- Long contract
- Unrealistic usage allowance
- Under-priced

I would not use the term cheaper to them.

Just that by use of traffic management, BT Retail can reduce the amount of actual internet access capacity it buys.

Thanks for the clarification.

It seems I misunderstood your original post, but I read it as being that they put data out not through the nodes. Maybe it was the reference to Central Plus that helped confuse me. Because that was a different system to Centrals you made me think they are also using some different system for Infinity output to what the other BTW ISPs use, but still incoming from the users via the nodes.

If you just meant the traffic management I would have expected that to be what you said .

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

Bad points:

- Traffic shaping
- Homehub
- Long contract
- Unrealistic usage allowance
- Under-priced

But he is using it, and happy. Are you, and if not which other FTTC supplier?

The question is, how long will BT Infinity last before it goes downhill? I believe they're offering rock bottom prices to attract ignorant consumers.

We have FTTC with Zen (40Mb/s 24/7 regardless of protocol) as we refuse to be duped by BT.

Fine, that's your choice.

My cabinet having been enabled in the last couple of days I am seriously considering Infinity.

I find it difficult to justify the extra expenditure over my existing O2 LLU £7.50 - £2.50 retention deal, but the main problems with BT Wholesale ADSLx products of the aggressive noise margin and profiling regime seem to have been sorted in the FTTC one, (you tell me what you have found ), and Infinity traffic management or even congestion will almost certainly not impinge significantly on my usage.

Of course the prices are predatory. I don't imagine they will significantly up them for existing customers in the next 18 months, and if they do then the contract can be escaped from without penalty.

So New_Londoner is happy with his choice, you are happy with yours, and I feel I have applied logical thought to my own options.

You don't provide useful information to the poster expipexer to help him make an informed decision. Just cliches.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

You don't provide useful information to the poster expipexer to help him make an informed decision. Just cliches.

e.g. "- Under-priced"

If Infinity goes 'downhill' punters will walk. But at Zen prices, the mass market is unlikely to walk their way. This isn't ignorance, it's economics.

BT Retail has a compelling price point and is cleaning up at the moment. However TalkTalk and Sky are coming and history suggests that they will be the serious competitors to BT Retail.

Being first to market, BT have it all to win and all to lose. I would think they are aware of this and will act accordingly.

O2 is a good example. Just take a look at the new packages! Unlimited LLU without shaping didn't last very long. They're now trying to con customers (I have read testimonials on other forums), encouraging them to move from unlimited & unshaped to shaped.

I'm letting expipexer know the facts about BT Infinity as he'll no doubt have to dive into the small print to find them out for himself.

How will punters walk if they're stuck in an 18 month contract?

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

O2 is a good example. Just take a look at the new packages! Unlimited LLU without shaping didn't last very long. They're now trying to con customers (I have read testimonials on other forums), encouraging them to move from unlimited & unshaped to shaped.

I'm letting expipexer know the facts about BT Infinity as he'll no doubt have to dive into the small print to find them out for himself.

Define "under-priced"

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

How will punters walk if they're stuck in an 18 month contract?

Because if the T&C's change, the contract is broken.

As in, why do the majority of other FTTC providers charge more for fewer gigabytes of bandwidth?

I'm sure they already have traffic shaping included in the T&Cs. There's nothing stopping them from increasing the severity/including other protocols.

Economies of scale.

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

I'm sure they already have traffic shaping included in the T&Cs. There's nothing stopping them from increasing the severity/including other protocols.

This is FUD.

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

The question is, how long will BT Infinity last before it goes downhill? I believe they're offering rock bottom prices to attract ignorant consumers.

We have FTTC with Zen (40Mb/s 24/7 regardless of protocol) as we refuse to be duped by BT.

Plenty of informed consumers using it too, however.

It's a rock bottom price compared to other ISPs currently but it's not rock bottom in the sense I believe you meant.

They charge you 25.60 for infinity option 2 (up to 40mbit with 300GB FUP) or 25.60 for Broadband option 3 (up to 20mbit, again with 300GB FUP). This is a pretty simple strategy. The pricing is equal - those who can get the FTTC get better speed but still only really get to download as much as those on regular ADSL/ADSL2. For BT it's not the speed that's important but how much they're having to transfer to you overall.

Compare with someone like Zen. Willing to rip you off (yes, rip you off) for over 35 quid a month for 100GB transfer on ADSL2 and even have the cheek to charge 48 quid set up unless you migrate in. Why, for the same 100GB usage, do they feel obliged to charge you over 45 quid for FTTC? Same data...more expense. Perhaps they want to keep people on ADSL2 at slower speeds.

It appears you are a Zen user. Are you paying out 66 sheets a month for the service that's "almost as good as BT's"? Happy to be paying nearly 500 quid a year more for your service? Or did you go with the jippy option that offers [censored] upload and comical usage limit that is only a tenner a month more?

Be interested to see your list of "benefits" for your chosen ISP. You mentioned "duped" in another one of your posts. Seems you're the one who has been duped into emptying your wallet unnecessarily each month. I also note you state "We have FTTC with Zen (40Mb/s 24/7 regardless of protocol)". How does this square with Zen's own, admirably honest statement, that there will be variations in speed due to a number of factors including time of day, equipment and contention. You seem to be under the impression that 40mbit is guaranteed forever but your own ISP seems less convinced.

Edited by orly (Sat 22-Jan-11 21:32:37)

O2 did it. They used to offer unthrottled LLU but now they're offering severely throttled LLU during peak times.

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

O2 did it. They used to offer unthrottled LLU but now they're offering severely throttled LLU during peak times.

Wrong, that's on the new packages. The old packages remain as they were.

I'm with Zen because I need an unshaped connection. I don't want to have to wait weeks for a "P2P" style game (Operation Flashpoint) to be added to the traffic management system. I need 8 usable static IPs with the ability to update the RDNS myself without having to call someone or open a ticket. I don't know if you have seen how BT configure their IP addressing but it's truly laughable.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

I'm sure they already have traffic shaping included in the T&Cs. There's nothing stopping them from increasing the severity/including other protocols.

This is FUD.

In reference to www.productsandservices.bt.com/consumerProducts/dynamicmodules/page...:

36. Occasionally, we may have to:

1. interrupt the service. If we do so, we will restore it as quickly as we can;
2. change your area code or phone number, or access numbers; or
3. make minor changes to certain technical specifications, including limits for transferring information which are associated with the service.

Is it possible to sign-up to the old packages? Nope. I wonder why.

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

I'm with Zen because I need an unshaped connection. I don't want to have to wait weeks for a "P2P" style game (Operation Flashpoint) to be added to the traffic management system. I need 8 usable static IPs with the ability to update the RDNS myself without having to call someone or open a ticket. I don't know if you have seen how BT configure their IP addressing but it's truly laughable.

Need it for what?

Was curious that when I spent most of the summer playing Modern Warfare 2 (about as P2P based a game as you can get unfortunately) it ran as well as anyone elses.

Care to tell us what package you use and your total outlay per month?

Changing the terms (notification)
50. If we make a change to the price or the terms and conditions of a service which is to your material disadvantage, you will not have to pay a charge if you decide to end that service early, unless the Tariff Guide says otherwise. However, once we have told you about such a change, you must let us know that you want to end that service within 10 days. This agreement will continue to apply to any other services that are not affected by any changes that we make.

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

Is it possible to sign-up to the old packages? Nope. I wonder why.

Because they have been discontinued. However, if you're on one, it's unchanged.

They've been discontinued because they're unable to cope with the bandwidth demand.

...which is to your material disadvantage...

If BT say it isn't material, taking them to court could be an expensive way to discover you're wrong.

And if you accept a small change (which you accept they are allowed to do), that then becomes the baseline for future small changes... mighty oaks.

If they make a change which is to your material disadvantage, you will be free to leave and they will compensate you. Been there, done that.

That's good. Too bad my friend had to use a VPN for several weeks in order to play Operation Flashpoint without 1000ms latency.

I'm not sure why package matters. I paid a similar amount in 2001 for ADSL and have no qualms about paying a similar figure for a premium connection per month now.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

If they make a change which is to your material disadvantage, you will be free to leave and they will compensate you. Been there, done that.

Read what I said.

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

They've been discontinued because they're unable to cope with the bandwidth demand.

Wrong, they decided to stop giving it away.

As I said, I've done that. I speak from experience. You?

Decided to stop giving bandwidth away? Why?

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

As I said, I've done that. I speak from experience. You?

Doesn't surprise me, but so?

In your case, the change was accepted as material so the "change terms" clause applied. But your case is unlikely to set a precedent for all cases.

If the company had claimed it wasn't material, what would have happened then?

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

That's good. Too bad my friend had to use a VPN for several weeks in order to play Operation Flashpoint without 1000ms latency.

I'm not sure why package matters. I paid a similar amount in 2001 for ADSL and have no qualms about paying a similar figure for a premium connection per month now.

It matters when you use "under priced" as a "negative" in relation to BT's service. Some of your other negatives are a little more valid - some seem misinformed. The (free) home hub being an example. Yes it's not exactly the greatest router but you're perfectly entitled to use any other compatible router so what's the problem?

I'm merely interested in how much of a positive you're deriving from the "over priced" "premium" package you subscribe to. By having this information we can all compare what you're getting to what Infinity users are getting.

You know that a lot of people on Infinity are paying 25 quid for their service but you seem to have gone a bit coy on your own expenses and setup. I'm not stretching my brain to figure out why. To be honest with you, Zen are a fine ISP and have a good reputation but coming on here making troll posts like "don't go with BT infinity" and inferring that anyone who does is being duped or is somehow incompetent while shying away once questions are asked of you seems a bit sad.

Edited by orly (Sat 22-Jan-11 22:04:26)

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

Decided to stop giving bandwidth away? Why?

Because like all businesses, they have to make a profit.

In reply to a post by billford:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

As I said, I've done that. I speak from experience. You?

Doesn't surprise me, but so?

In your case, the change was accepted as material so the "change terms" clause applied. But your case is unlikely to set a precedent for all cases.

If the company had claimed it wasn't material, what would have happened then?

I would have persuaded them of their error.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

I would have persuaded them of their error.

I have outlined the differences and I am happy to pay extra. I wouldn't have bothered to respond to your posts had I wanted to "shy away". BT do not make the negatives stand-out for a reason, it's down to others to make it so.

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

I have outlined the differences and I am happy to pay extra. I wouldn't have bothered to respond to your posts had I wanted to "shy away". BT do not make the negatives stand-out for a reason, it's down to others to make it so.

You're not making any sense of how over-priced is a benefit. Larger operators can sell things cheaper than smaller operators because they sell more.

Greed.

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

Greed.

No, simple economics. It makes sense for everyone.

I have outlined the technical reasons.

Yes, because P2P is rampant and people love traffic shaping. Way to alienate your potential customers, O2. I guess Sky will grow as they have a tasty unmetered and unthrottled LLU offering.

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

I have outlined the technical reasons.

For over-priced being better? Where?

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

Yes, because P2P is rampant and people love traffic shaping. Way to alienate your potential customers, O2. I guess Sky will grow as they have a tasty unmetered and unthrottled LLU offering.

You mean the greed of people using P2P?

ISPs shouldn't offer a unmetered service if they can't support it.

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

ISPs shouldn't offer a unmetered service if they can't support it.

They don't.

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

I have outlined the differences and I am happy to pay extra. I wouldn't have bothered to respond to your posts had I wanted to "shy away". BT do not make the negatives stand-out for a reason, it's down to others to make it so.

Why would any ISP or company highlight negatives? That's a sily point.

Lets take a look at your own made up list.
- Traffic shaping
Yes it exists but not quite to the level you seem to think. Essentially it covers bit torrent and the like. It still works and any technically minded folk can find ways around the shaping entirely. Browsing, gaming, downloads, iplayer, newsgroups all full speed ahead. Not found myself limited in any way with the services I use. Yes, there are people with a clue using BT.
- Homehub
Not exactly the greatest piece of kit ever but hardly a lemon either. Works fine most of the time but is prone to falling over and I'd agree the user interface is over simplified for my liking. It is however free so it's hard to moan.
- Long contract
Indeed it is longer than most but just about every other ISP is at least 12 months. Considering 18 months of BT generally costs less than 12 months of the other ISPs, I don't really consider this a valid point.
- Unrealistic usage allowance
300GB and then speed limited. Whats unrealistic? What do Zen do when you dare use 50 or 100GB on your new FTTC connection? That's right, they kick you off the service entirely until you buy another chunk of bandwidth off them. How is this better again?
- Under-priced
Can't really fathom how something that is cheaper now qualifies as a bad thing.

Now how about some facts about Infinity compared to others.

Installation and equipment - free. Few if any of the other ISPs offer this.
Monthly cost - lowest.
Usage - "Unlimited" but in reality published material from BT themselves say 300GB a month is the acceptable level of use. This compares favourably with other FTTC ISPs who have more stringent limits. In some cases the limits imposed are frankly farcical.
Support - UK based like other ISPs. Don't dupe yourself into thinking it'll be Patel in Delhi picking up the phone. He might, but once he finds out it's infinity you'll get sent back to the UK.
Also includes extras like email, online backup and wi-fi out and about. Don't use these myself but they're still included.

So, which set of data seems to be the better one from an objective point of view? You seem to have a specific set of requirements but I don't know if any of them specifically require you to pay as much as you do. Don't have enough information on what it is you're doing to comment further.

Again i'd ask you to comment on which FTTC base package you have from Zen to allow an even more accurate comparison.

Edited by orly (Sat 22-Jan-11 23:18:58)

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

ISPs shouldn't offer a unmetered service if they can't support it.

BT certainly don't even though their wording suggests otherwise. It seems like years now that people have been banging on about this - me included.

However BT in reality offer 300GB and then it's speed limited (at peak times I believe). This is far from unmetered but seems a realistic and suitably lax limit.

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

O2 is a good example. Just take a look at the new packages! Unlimited LLU without shaping didn't last very long.

Is that so?

I have been on O2 on an unlimited, unshaped package since September 2008. That package was available from them at my exchange at least 18 months before that as I considered it at that time and rejected it because I was scared of the leap onto LLU.

The new packages were introduced towards the end of 2010. My package is still unlimited and unshaped.

Facts, not bluster, please. I see you have repeatedly been asked for details of what Zen package you are on and what tangible benefits you have so far enjoyed compared to Infinity, but you seem to be reluctant to reply to those requests.

How will punters walk if they're stuck in an 18 month contract? wink

Presumably if they want to go to providers that are charging double, money will be no object and they will buy themselves out.

History suggests that punters do not move to providers who charge double, they move to lower cost providers doing 'free' or bundled broadband with high cost pay tv.

Hence high cost small providers remain small. Whereas BT, Sky and TalkTalk are big.

BT are first to market and are cleaning up. No doubt 12 and 18 month contracts at compelling price will lure early adopters to be locked in and this will be a BT strategy. They pick up the punters whilst TalkTalk and Sky dither and if their service is good they keep them going forward.

But don't kid yourself that very high price providers will gain any traction in this market. They are small for a reason. The reason is they are very expensive.

This is a massive investment by BT Group and to succeed it must be mass market.

There will always be room for small providers who offer products for small niche punters and indeed for punters that want to appear 'cool' for paying well over the market rate. That, of course is the strategy of the small high price providers.

Edited by deleted (Sun 23-Jan-11 00:31:45)