Turning off Router slows ADSL speed over time

OK, I know it sounds crazy but that's what I've just been told by my ISP's, Vivaciti, engineer. I'm very happy with Vivaciti, they've been great but in the last week or so youtube and many sites seemed to be getting really slow. I did "think broadband's" speed test and it reported 4MB down. I used to get more like 11MB. The engineer said I'm right next to the exchange and my router downstream says over 16MB.

I called Vivaciti who took a look at my connection and said it showed regular "port problems" at around 10pm each evening. After some quick questions it emerged that's usually when I turn off my router every night. BT take this to be a "problem" and drop the line speed to try to "balance" the line?? Can they really be that dumb?

I've never heard of anything like this. So if you switch off your router routinely to save electricity and help the environment, BT will drop your line speed gradually?? Anyone else come across this? I've been told to leave it on permanently from now on and in a few days they'll contact BT and ask them to raise my profile if its been dropped.

This all sounds Kapfa-esque to me.

if the router says goodbye nicely it shouldn't be an issue turning it off at night (or any other time).

Can you try to find and post your line stats from the router? See here for help. The results from a BT Performance Test might be useful as well.

As yarwell says - turning the router off at night should not cause any trouble. In fact it shouldn't even if it doesn't send a "last gasp" signal to say that's what is happening.

Which vivaciti package are you on? And this vivaciti engineer? On the phone, or a visit?

Hi Roberto, you've helped me out before

My stats are:

Connection Speed: Down 16632kbps; Up 888kbps
Line Attenuation: Down 16.5db; Up 11.0db
Noise margin: Down 13.3db; Up 7.8db

I can't use the BT Performance Test, I had trouble with that a few months back, something to do with me being on LLU Unbundled if I remember?

I just did a second speed test using this sites tool and its even worse, 3.2MB down speed.

In which case BT will not be doing any slowing down of the line .

Which package though? I don't think you have said in earlier threads. Was this a phone conversation with vivaciti support? "Engineer" is an unusual term here unless referring to a BT one.

Oh - um, now I'm completely confused. So why am I getting under 4MB down then?

Yes it was a Vivaciti tech support representative, "Engineer" was my word. My package is listed as "Murphx LLU - CW - ADSL2+ Home Up to 24Mb LLU Broadband" in my control panel. It should be unlimited so there's no capping going on in theory.

If its LLU then no IP profile, the trick is to check the connection speed perhaps 3 or 4 times a day, and for one or two days do a speedtest every few hours and see at what times it starts to slow down.

In reply to a post by edwinbradford:

My package is listed as "Murphx LLU - CW - ADSL2+ Home Up to 24Mb LLU Broadband" in my control panel.

That's a bit odd - CW is only up to 16Mb

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

CW is only up to 16Mb

C & W?

But where do you get that 16Mbps from? If xilo/uno website, the (vivaciti-equivalent) Pro 16 ones are up to 24 Mbps.

That's clear nomenclature for you .

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

CW is only up to 16Mb

C & W?

But where do you get that 16Mbps from? If xilo/uno website, the (vivaciti-equivalent) Pro 16 ones are up to 24 Mbps.

That's clear nomenclature for you .

Check his router stats - should be 21Megs. When I was on Bulldog, it was 16Mb.

Ah, I see what you mean.

But you were on an in-house service.

The C & W Wholesale from vivaciti and xilo/uno is "up to 24Mbps". I wouldn't be able to put my finger on suitable example posters, but clearly remember there being one post in response to a statement of a 16Mbps cap, well above 16Mbps.

They probably run different profiles, depending on the results of testing the line initially, in which case, the OP may have some line issues. But on the face of it, he's capped to 16Mb. I doubt if Vivachitty can sort it out.

I think BatBoy is referring to the product that C&W actually sell as 16Mb/1Mb they do not have a 24Mb offering even though the line may go up to that speed.

Matt

The C & W Wholesale from xilo/uno is "up to 24Mbps".

No, it is up to 16Mb as shown on the site but not limited to that.

Matt

I think he is saying the in-house one is actually capped at 16Mbps.

Are you sure?

The wholesale product that C&W offer is 16Mb/1Mb with three levels of assured rate.

Matt

I'm saying the OP looks like he is capped to 16Mbps

Looking at the stats the SNR is way higher than it should be, could be due to a line issue, does c&w use DLM? if so it could be that causing it

No DLM on C&W... and their default SNR is 9db.

Maybe that has been changed for stability?

Matt

to 13.3dB?

to that for stability...? sure.

C&W can apply set SNR profiles at 9, 12 and 15db and then also apply rate caps to give higher SNR margins.

Line is likely on 12db and fluctuated a little up.

Matt

In reply to a post by uno:

Are you sure?

The wholesale product that C&W offer is 16Mb/1Mb with three levels of assured rate.

But I'm sure in the past you have said it is not capped, just a conservative statement/adveryisement of what can be achieved. Plus we have seen at least one of your customers on it at above 16Mbps. SOmething around 18Mbps IIRC?

As I said in the other post, it isn't capped but the official product is up to 16Mb. Lines may go higher but C&W can (and have) turned around when we've queried a line that wasn't getting a sync we'd expect to be told it was above 16Mb and exceeding product specification.

Matt

In reply to a post by uno:

As I said in the other post, it isn't capped but the official product is up to 16Mb. Lines may go higher but C&W can (and have) turned around when we've queried a line that wasn't getting a sync we'd expect to be told it was above 16Mb and exceeding product specification.

Matt

Ahhh .

Well I just did a third test and it was 4MB. That's 4MB, 3MB and 4MB over two days. I'm leaving my router on as instructed but I'm not sure if it makes any difference? It sounds like you all think I was misinformed?

Hi,
Can you drop me a PM with either your ticket number or ADSL line number so I can get another set of eyes on this for you. and a contact number if your not at home.

Great. I've carried out more SpeedTests over the last two days and my speed dropped to 3MB and now its 1MB down speed, not even enough to use Skype and YouTube stalls on SD.

This is the pits. Vivaciti PM'd me and I've had a couple of mails from their support department asking if I can try a different router (I don't have a spare) and saying the same as earlier, that the only problem they can see is that the line reports a disconnect when I turn off the router. But then it hasn't been a problem before so why would it now?

I've checked for malware, my anti-virus is on, I have my proxy [Privoxy] disabled, I just upgraded the firmware on the router, my router does not broadcast the SSID and the encryption is set to WPA2-PSK, besides I don't see any LED indication of piggy-backing.

I'm out of ideas. Vivaciti have three suppliers don't they? Is it worth asking them to move me to another, even as a test?

Completely remove wireless from the equation.

What is the result of speedtest when connected via cable to the router (with nothing else connected at all).

Matt

There's no wireless, the PC is always connected to the router directly via ethernet cable. Wireless is turned on for my iPhone but I rarely use it.

Switching off the modem on an ADSL connection for an appreciable time DOES trigger a drop in rate.
The following is an extract from my ISP's FAQs, but I heard it first from a former engineer colleague (on another ISP).
( A few second OFF can kick the rate up again if it has been dropped due to a short burst of interference. It should adapt up again in time, but the system is fast down slow up so a kick sometimes helps )

I entirely agree it doesn't make green or economic sense, but we seem to be stuck with it as a consequence of trying to use a 19th century telegraph system for high speed data !

JGO
--------------------
Maximum Stable Rate: The maximum stable rate (or MSR) is a line rate threshold established by BT over the first 10 days of service on the 8000 services. It is used to determine when a drop in line rate would be considered a fault.

Fault Threshold Rate: The fault threshold rate (or FTR) is 80% of the MSR. If the line rate drops below the FTR for more than 8 hours in a week period it is considered a fault and a low threshold breach fault can be raised.
---------------------------

I've just read through the entire topic, as some people have gone off topic and makes it hard to follow.

Quick summary of the situation.

Edwin use to have a consistant tested download speed of around 11mb, which would mean he would have to have a normal sync of 13+mb. Edwin's sync is 16mb which is slightly better with a downspeed snr of 13db, which is higher then normal but not really causing a problem as the sync speed is ok.

Edwin hasn't said what router he is using, as he may have an older model which doesnt fully support speeds over 16mb like the old netgear's.

Edwin hasn't said he's tried the master socket, but i dont think he needs to as the sync speed is good.

Edwin is on a C/W LLU adsl2+ connection, so the information JGO has posted is for adsl1 and not related.

To me, it seems like the problem maybe on either Edwin's computer, router or on the isp network as the sync speed is good.

Edwin, I dont know what operating system your running. I'm going to guess your running windows. open a dos command prompt in the accessories folder, then type netstat and press enter.
Hopefully you wont have anything listed there sucking up your internet bandwidth so we can eliminate your computer.

What a load of nonsense

"Switching off the modem on an ADSL connection for an appreciable time DOES trigger a drop in rate."

Why would that cause a drop in rate?

Thanks for taking the trouble to post that explanation, I'm a little more reassured now. I'll speak to Vivaciti again tomorrow and ask them to pursue their suggestion last week of getting the speed raised back up as soon as possible. I think they suggested it could be fast tracked.

If it turns out to be the cause the culprit was BT then it seems.

In reply to a post by edwinbradford:

Thanks for taking the trouble to post that explanation, I'm a little more reassured now. I'll speak to Vivaciti again tomorrow and ask them to pursue their suggestion last week of getting the speed raised back up as soon as possible. I think they suggested it could be fast tracked.

If it turns out to be the cause the culprit was BT then it seems.

No it's wrong. You're on LLU not BT.

The Vivaciti guy is lying through his teeth. You are on LLU and not subject to anything BT! You can switch your router on and off every 5 minutes and it won't affect your sync!

My advice, move to Xilo/Uno. You get the same connection but the lies are conspicuously absent, good luck

Edited by Finguz (Sun 27-Feb-11 13:34:50)

I'm a little more reassured now

you shouldn't be, that guy is talking out of his rear. See MrSaffron response to his post.

Ah - right...

I can see where the consensus is, honestly, you guys are great. OK I'll go back to Vivaciti tomorrow and start checking out the other recommended ISP's at the same time starting with xilo and uno then.

Thanks for all the help everyone.

Glad you saw the light!

Did you also see Vivaciti asked you to PM them earlier so they could take another look?

They are often on TBB so it would be good to hear the full story.
NB. I'm not on LLU but DO switch my router off every night - it doesn't affect my connection

Post deleted by RobertoS

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

...and I see you have accepted what they say

Where did you see/read that?
I must be going mad, but I can't find it...

In reply to a post by edwinbradford:

Ah - right...

I can see where the consensus is, honestly, you guys are great. OK I'll go back to Vivaciti tomorrow and start checking out the other recommended ISP's at the same time starting with xilo and uno then.

Thanks for all the help everyone.

Switching off the modem on an ADSL connection for an appreciable time DOES trigger a drop in rate.

The others have already shot that down, and I see you have accepted what they say . But!

The following is an extract from my ISP's FAQs, but I heard it first from a former engineer colleague (on another ISP).
( A few second OFF can kick the rate up again if it has been dropped due to a short burst of interference. It should adapt up again in time, but the system is fast down slow up so a kick sometimes helps )

That seems to be referring to what was called "blip" logic. It was ditched by BT in August 2008 when the 3-day profile update system it applied to was replaced.

In reply to a post by b4dger:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

...and I see you have accepted what they say

Where did you see/read that?
I must be going mad, but I can't find it...

I replied to JGO accidentally, as I was picking up what he said in order to quote it.

Post deleted and replied to the OP now.

Thanks .

Yes thanks, I replied to the PM and I've had a couple of emails from their support department, they're saying they want to rule out the router being turned off as the cause first but haven't suggested any other action yet.

More lies. If you are on LLU then switching the router off makes no difference at all and they know it! It has been ruled out by the way your LLU connection works.

It's like a mechanic wanting to rule out the fact that the misfire on your diesel engine could be caused by a faulty spark plug

Edited by Finguz (Sun 27-Feb-11 20:26:22)

Speedtest is now showing 13MB down after two tests this morning. We had a power cut yesterday and now my phone doesn't ring, engineers have confirmed there's a problem but I doubt if its related to my speed improvement.

I've been leaving the router on as requested but up until yesterday it showed marginal differences as expected, one test had 5MB down, and doesn't really explain the sudden boost. The only remaining thing I can think of is that I ran SpeedGuide.net TCP Optimizer tool for Vista http://www.speedguide.net/files/vista/SG_Vista_TcpIp...

It changed several settings. I tried a speed test immediately after and saw no difference but perhaps it takes a few minutes / hours to propagate.

Vivaciti haven't done anything to help to be honest, they told me they couldn't do anything until I tried another router so I had to buy one off Ebay for 15 pounds which is a bit annoying, I would have been more impressed if they'd sent me one to test with.