Serious post-migration issue

I migrated to my new ISP in the early hours of yesterday. It involved a change from an ADSL1 connection to ADSL2+.

Obviously, I did not expect migration to solve my six-week disconnection problem but I was confident that the new ISP would get this right eventually. What I didn�t expect was a new problem.

When I checked my router yesterday morning, I was pleased to see that I was synched at 16312 kbps. The BT Tester reported an IP Profile of 14000 kbps. My first BT download test reported a speed of 113827 kbps. Then I set about my business.

Anywhere on the Internet other than the BT Test site my download speeds are between 3.5 mbps and 1.5 mbps.

I spent most of yesterday in touch with my new ISP. Multiple line tests involving changing routers, phones, etc have not come up with a solution. All the changes reduced my IP Profile to 11000 kbps. As a diagnostic, I downloaded a 78.7 mb file. It took 7 minutes and 10 seconds at a speed of circa 185 KB/sec. A second download of the same file was a tad faster at 195 KB/sec. The ISP�s own speed tester has, so far, reported speeds or 2.5-1.8 mbps.

This morning, I�m synched at 16120 kbps. I ran a BT Test around 7.30 am and this was the result on an IP Profile of 11000:

Download speed achieved during the test was - 10218 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 4000-21000 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :16120 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 1152 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 11000 Kbps
The throughput of Best Efforts (BE) classes achieved during the test is - 16.86:25.92:57.23 (SBE:NBE:PBE)
These figures represent the ratio while sententiously passing Sub BE, Normal BE and Priority BE marked traffic

Any answers for me?

Edited by ARD (Fri 15-Apr-11 09:07:53)

Ask AA what IP Profile has been reported to them?

Hello Andrew
Can you explain why that would help? (I'm not a technician...sadly.)

It would check if AA are seeing the same IP profile (some ISPs manage the connection to the profile that they have reported to them and if it is different could artificially throttle the connection).

I'd credit the ISP with the sense to have checked this out but thanks for the tip. I'll make 100% sure.

EDIT: As expected, they are seeing the same IP Profile.

Edited by ARD (Fri 15-Apr-11 13:14:16)

I would say that as you are getting expected speeds through the BT speed test that it would appear the issues are at the ISPs end of the connection.

What other methods are you using to measure download speeds? What other speedtests have you done? Have you tried downloading a large file from Microsoft to see what speed you can get?

I�ve used the ThinkBroadband speed test and speedtest.net. Also the ISP�s own tester. The speeds reported are consistently awful.

Anything�s a big file at the moment, Ian! As I wrote above, a 78.7 MB file from my ISP mirror site was downloaded at 185 KB/sec. I�ve just download an audio file from a site I use every week. It�s 8.37 MB. Transfer used to take seconds. I downloaded at 54 KB/sec, taking 2 minutes, 28 seconds. A 10 MB file from the Zen test page downloaded at 57.9 KB/sec, taking 2 minutes, 28 seconds.

Here's a recent BT result:

Download speed achieved during the test was - 11187 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 4000-21000 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :15704 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 896 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 11000 Kbps
The throughput of Best Efforts (BE) classes achieved during the test is - 15.57:23.03:61.4 (SBE:NBE:PBE)
These figures represent the ratio while sententiously passing Sub BE, Normal BE and Priority BE marked traffic.


What can go wrong in a migration process?

Edited by ARD (Fri 15-Apr-11 14:36:08)

Sorry, glazed over the original speed stuff in the email - must be tired

I still say it is a problem at the ISPs end. Your line is clearly capable of decent download speeds (EDIT : removed that bit of superfluous text as it was answered in original post!)

You've probably already answered these 2 questions as well and I am having a bad day, but:
1) Who is your ISP? From MrS's comment I assumed it was Andrews and Arnold but I can't for the life of me see how he knew that
2) Have you tried the thinkbroadband speed tester to see what results that gives? Not expecting it to be any different but as we are on the TBB site would be nice to see the result

If it is Andrews and Arnold that are your ISP I would expect them to be looking in their own network as the BT speedtests are consistently pointing to errors their end.

Edited by ian72 (Fri 15-Apr-11 15:07:03)

Here's a thinkbroadband result:

15/04/11 15:15:22
Speed Down 2425.35 Kbps ( 2.4 Mbps )
Speed Up 749.04 Kbps ( 0.7 Mbps )
Port 8095
Server speedtest2.thinkbroadband.com

Has the ISP confirmed what the IP Profile is that has been reported them?

AA certainly do limit based on the IP profile reported to them, since we saw this recently for a FTTC customer on the bbs.

Yes. I have spoken with a technician. He confirmed that he could see my Profile had been 14000 kbps and is now 11000 kbps. I was on the phone to a senior staff member yesterday. I feel he would have checked this one.

If an ISP does limit speeds based on an incorrect Profile, would the user get normal results on the BT Test site but very low elsewhere? Is there a link to the customer problem you mentioned?

Edited by ARD (Fri 15-Apr-11 15:51:54)

I suggest the principle problem is nothing to do with AAISP, though with luck they are the best ISP to help sort it out.

The wildly varying IP Profile points to a wildly varying sync/connection speed, which in turn points to a line fault between the PCP cabinet and you, or internal to your premises.

You mentioned not expecting the move to solve whatever the problems discussed in the previous many threads and posts were, and it hasn't. I'm afraid I haven't time right now to go back and re-read everything.

Re the new development of poor throughput for the IP Profile, that sounds like either a router which needs updated firmware to handle ADSL2+ properly, or are you perhaps using a wireless connection to the router rather than wired?

If wireless, what OS on the computer? And is it your previous router or a new one?

Roberto,
My IP Profile is 100% normal. I have not said otherwise. My sync speed has varied but not "wildly". Changes has been due to line testing by my ISP and the underlying disconnection problem which my ISP has taken seriously. Please don't hint that I criticised my ISP. I have every confidence they�ll get things right.

I have two routers, both bought in the last five weeks. They are fully ADSL2+ compliant. I am currently wired to the router but there is no reason why a wireless connection should be so much slower than wired connection- certainly not this much slower that the speeds normal for the Profile.

Edited by ARD (Fri 15-Apr-11 16:15:20)

Yes to the good on speedtest and bad elsewhere

And would have to search, but was down to someone with 35000 IP Profile on AA

Thanks for clariying that, Andrew. I'm as near to 100% sure that this isn't the issue here but I'll search out that thread.

EDIT this looks like it:

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/3992392-ftt...

Edited by ARD (Fri 15-Apr-11 16:58:43)

I wasn't aware I had inferred you were criticising your ISP, unless it isn't AAISP. Earlier in the tread it is strongly implied that it is, only despite that you keep saying "my ISP". Keeping it secret doesn't help anyone, particularly you.

So, is it AAISP or not, and if not, which please?

My point about the IP Profile varying wildly was a mental blackout. For some daft reason when drafting that post I was thinking you are now on FTTC, which you clearly are not. Sorry .

However for testing to cause a sync of under 12480kbps when your normal one is the high 15Mbpss to low 16Mbpss is somewhat strange, although a single rogue setup could have caused it.

Is your new ISP aware of the initial occurrence, as in this post and thread? It seems to me to be highly relevant, as it does to you.

There is also quite a lot of useful info for them in this thread particular the latter parts of it after it seemed to stabilise for a week then go haywire again.

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 15-Apr-11 17:41:13)

My new ISP is aware of all issues prior to my migration. Speed problems did not pre-date migration

Line testing- and the original issue to which you have suddenly found time to link- has led to sync varying between 16326 kbps and 15411 kbps. Nothing wild about that.

My IP Profile has varied between 14000 kbps and 11000 kbps. Again, nothing unusual in a DSL training period and to be expected given the original issue.

To remind you, the issue of this thread is why my download speeds outside the BT Test site are far removed from the IP Profile despite the same problematic BT line, wiring and hardware.

Anyway, that�s it until Monday.

Edited by ARD (Fri 15-Apr-11 19:03:37)

An 11000kbps profile can only result from a sync in the range 11360-12448kbps.

ADSLx does not "train" in the manner you seem to think.

I'm not sure how a throughput problem is inevitably nothing to do with line problems.

If rather than AAISP your ISP happens to be Plusnet, seeing as you were considering it a while back, (how unreal are you in refusing to say who it is!), there is a very probable explanation of throughput problems which Plunet level 1 and even level 2 support have repeatedly shown themselves unaware of.

But you clearly wish me to push off, so I shall. Thank you for being so rude in two consecutive posts where I have been trying to help.

I don't think I have been rude to you, Roberto, but I'm sorry to have offended you.

Current IP Profile from the BT Test site is 13000 kbps

Current sync: 15992 kbps

Speed result from BT Test site:

Download speedachieved during the test was - 11121 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speedsis 4000-21000 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :15992 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 1152 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 13000 Kbps
The throughput of Best Efforts (BE) classes achieved during the test is - 16.13:26.72:57.16 (SBE:NBE:PBE)

Speed result from elsewhere are as low as 1.5 mbps.

You've given me a lot to think about so thanks

ISP is ?

It can be relevant!

I accept it probably is not, as the BT speed test would show up the problem I have in mind, but "probably" means "probably", not certainly.

The ISP can be relevant given any individual problem - it can spark a distant memory in other readers' minds about similar on the same ISP, and result in them searching and finding a relevant thread.

There is never any point in being secretive about your ISP unless you have reason to believe you made a bad choice and don't want the "salt in the wound" of others saying so.

Even if that were the case, which I doubt, wounds heal quickest when treated appropriately .

Can you post up the complete statistics from your router? Including error counts such as CRC, FEC, HEC etc.

Can you also see what MTU is configured on your router?

Edited by deleted (Sat 16-Apr-11 16:20:44)

Hi GeeTee,

Here�s the data. I can see how it explains the DSL sync drops, though here have been none so far today, but not this new problem. I�ve just updated my browser. A 7.3 MB file download at 66 KB/sec.

Chantype: Interleave

DSL standard: ADSL2PLUS
UpstreamRate: 1152 kbps
DownstreamRate: 15992 kbps
Upstream Attainable Rate: 22675 kbps
Downstream Attainable Rate: 15272 kbps
noise margin upstream: 5 db
output power downstream: 20 db
attenuation upstream: 5 db
noise margin downstream: 4 db
output power upstream: 0 db
attenuation downstream: 23 db
Up/Down stream FEC : 0/ 6496924
Up/Down stream CRC : 52726/ 165244
Up/Down stream HEC : 1317183/ 261922
Up/Down stream ES : 19383/ 8295
Up/Down stream SES : 19383/ 2982
Up/Down stream UAS : 29/ 30
Up/Down stream LOSS : 0/ 5241872
Up/Down stream NCD : 0/ 0
Up/Down stream LCD : 0/ 0

The MTU is set at 1500

Edited by ARD (Sat 16-Apr-11 18:23:30)

Could you post your modem uptime and model?

Strange stats with a downstream rate (15992 kbps) greater than the attainable rate (15272 kbps) and the upstream attainable rate (22675 kbps) is impossible.

The router I'm using now is a Zyxel P-660HN-F1Z.

I've just lost sync and reconnected at 15448 kbps but here's the stat that interested you again:

DSL standard: ADSL2PLUS
UpstreamRate: 1144 kbps
DownstreamRate: 15448 kbps
Upstream Attainable Rate: 22478 kbps
Downstream Attainable Rate: 15364 kbps

Edited by ARD (Sat 16-Apr-11 18:06:08)

How long had the connection been up at that point?

It would be interesting to take a snapshot of the error counts, run some large downloads for 5 minutes or so, then take another snapshot. That way we would have a good idea how badly the line is being effected.

The FECs are data packets that have been damaged in transit but been salvaged successfully thanks to the interleaving. This saves them having to be retransmitted but dependant on the processor in the router may have a negative impact on throughput if it has to repair a lot in a short time.

9-10 hours.

However, the line condition is the same when I run the BT Speed Test. The stats don't explain the difference between a BT result in keeping with a 13000 kbps IP Profile and the speeds I'm getting elsewhere. I've just tested from my own ISP website. Result? 1.5 mbps.

Edited by ARD (Sun 17-Apr-11 08:23:11)

Does the connection still drop sometimes when you receive phone calls?

The disconnections have never been due exclusively to phone use, though they were most commmon when using the phone. For example, on Friday I lost sync during a phone call and again when the phone was not in use. Yesterday, phone calls did not cause disconnections but there was a drop with nothing to do with phones. I've just made a call and there was no sync loss. Part of the problem has been the absense of a pattern.

At the moment , though, my main concern is the strange speed issue. Here are today's BT results:

Download speedachieved during the test was - 10626 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speedsis 4000-21000 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :15640 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 1144 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 13000 Kbps
The throughput of Best Efforts (BE) classes achieved during the test is - 17.94:25.7:56.36 (SBE:NBE:PBE)
These figures represent the ratio while sententiously passing Sub BE, Normal BE and Priority BE marked traffic

Download speedachieved during the test was - 11149 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speedsis 4000-21000 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :15672 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 1152 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 13000 Kbps
The throughput of Best Efforts (BE) classes achieved during the test is - 18.76:21.25:60.0 (SBE:NBE:PBE)
These figures represent the ratio while sententiously passing Sub BE, Normal BE and Priority BE marked traffic.

Elsewhere, my downloads have been 2.6-1.5 mbps.

Edited by ARD (Sun 17-Apr-11 14:08:20)

The dropping connections and errors indicate a problem on the copper line. This should be resolvable by a thorough Openreach SFI engineer.

The throughput difference between the BT Speedtest and every other download / speedtest indicate congestion or peering issues with your ISP.

Unfortunately this is all in the hands of your ISP to fix

As Andrew pointed out at the beginning, there are at least two ISPs who hold copies of the IP Profile within their system.

This copy is what is used to control your speed, not the IP Profile itself.

The copy is supposed to be automatically updated by a feed from BT when it changes. This auto system frequently fails. So if it was at 4000kbps or lower, and if the ISP also has BT speed tests routed to bypass their internal systems - which some do, then you would get exactly the effect you are observing.

AAISP are is one and Plusnet is the other. I don't know about AAISP, but certainly at Plusnet first-line support when asked what the profile is will look at the BT reading that they can see for your line, not their internal copy. They seem unaware that the copy even exists.

On Plusnet you can see what the internal copy is by going into your control panel and finding the "Current Line Rate". If it is AAISP I don't know. If it is some other ISP then, once again, you know what we need to know.

That's a very explicit and understandable response. Huge thanks

HR Dis has been mentioned byy quite a few people, though you were first, and it seems the only answer that makes sense.

The troubling throughput issue is hard to relate to ISP congestion because of the scale of the difference. I can only assume a peering issue or what Andrew and Roberto have indicated. I'll be in touch with tech support again tomorrow.

Good morning!

After two attempts to authenticate this morning, I now have Internet speeds in keeping with the IP and bRAS Profiles and results from the BT Test site:

http://www.speedtest.net/result/1257278768.png

http://www.speedtest.net/result/1257284984.png

Download speed achieved during the test was - 13955 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 4000-21000 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :16280 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 1136 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 13000 Kbps
The throughput of Best Efforts (BE) classes achieved during the test is - 15.31:23.61:61.08 (SBE:NBE:PBE)
These figures represent the ratio while sententiously passing Sub BE, Normal BE and Priority BE marked traffic.

Now I can focus on the High Resistance Disconnect (HR Dis) issue- or whatever has been causing me sync loss since 3 March.

Huge thanks for the amazing support you have all given. I can�t post my exact circumstance on this forum but only that would tell you have helped just by being around ThinkBroadband.

In reply to a post by ARD:

Good morning!

After two attempts to authenticate this morning, I now have Internet speeds in keeping with the IP and bRAS Profiles and results from the BT Test site:

http://www.speedtest.net/result/1257278768.png

http://www.speedtest.net/result/1257284984.png

Download speed achieved during the test was - 13955 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 4000-21000 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :16280 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 1136 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 13000 Kbps
The throughput of Best Efforts (BE) classes achieved during the test is - 15.31:23.61:61.08 (SBE:NBE:PBE)
These figures represent the ratio while sententiously passing Sub BE, Normal BE and Priority BE marked traffic.

Now I can focus on the High Resistance Disconnect (HR Dis) issue- or whatever has been causing me sync loss since 3 March.

Huge thanks for the amazing support you have all given. I can�t post my exact circumstance on this forum but only that would tell you have helped just by being around ThinkBroadband.

I'm confused - how was this sorted out?

That's good news, but it also looks as though the BLM/Speed test combination is playing silly devils again.

Have you noticed your download speed is now considerably above the IP Profile? That is impossible. This problem used to occur a lot.

Even if you had the 14000kbps profile your current sync should earn, 13995kbps could not be achieved.

The speedtest.net figures look more likely on a 13Mbps profile.

[[/quote]I'm confused - how was this sorted out?


No idea, BatBoy, but my ISP have been kept fully informed so maybe they adjusted something overnight.

BTW This has nothing to do with the High Resistance Disconnect (HR Dis) issue- or whatever has been causing disconnections since 3 March.

Yes, Roberto, I had noticed. But it's nothing new. I sometimes had strangely high "results" on a 7150 kbps Profile:

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/idnet/t/3900413-bt-...

I'm just pleased to be able to use my connection normally and get speedtest.net results in keeeping with the Profile.

http://www.speedtest.net/result/1257799064.png

Thanks for all your input

Edited by ARD (Mon 18-Apr-11 16:23:46)