BRAS changes

Apologies if this has been picked up already in the forums but I couldn't see any mention in the last week.

According to AAISP (see here for details) BT are no longer going to set the BRAS profile in 1Mbps steps on 21CN lines but follow the line rate much more closely.

In effect lots of people will see an improvement in their speeds - could be up to 1Mbps.

It's been around for a while. They had it going on some exchanges early in the year, if not last year, and recently it has spread at a great rate.

I finally got round to updating my website a few days ago. Three pages under this one.

I think it was the Openreach one on FTTC that made someone realise it could be done .

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

It's been around for a while. They had it going on some exchanges early in the year, if not last year, and recently it has spread at a great rate.

I finally got round to updating my website a few days ago. Three pages under this one.

I think it was the Openreach one on FTTC that made someone realise it could be done .

What it took them so long to realise this ?? i heard also that bt are going to start offering service Free of DLM, why they have insisted on DLM and all the other rubbish methods that they use, until now i don't know
the only possible reasons i can think of are
A: save on provision of tech support staff
B: mask underlying potential line faults & interference issues that are able to have an adverse effect up on some lines, & in doing so save on engineering work
c: the DLM bras and whatever other profiling they use acts as an indirect method of artificially capping sync speeds and there fore rate limiting data throughput & that's on top of the traffic shaping ect used by bt and bt wholesale resellers

I just took a look at my line data (Zen) today and saw a change had been made on 12th in the early hours - info generated automatically by BT.

Line rate data:

Upstream 416

Downstream 4573

Sync Rate 5184

BRAS Profile TR101

Interleave Auto

Sync Date 12-Dec-2011 05:29

Date 12-Dec-2011 05:29



0

3500

4000

adsl3500

Auto

22-Nov-2011 19:15

22-Nov-2011 19:15


0

3500

4000

adsl3500

Auto

22-Nov-2011 18:34

22-Nov-2011 18:34


0

4000

4544

adsl4000

Auto

19-Nov-2011 22:47

19-Nov-2011 22:47


0

4500

5120

adsl4500

Auto

17-Nov-2011 09:02

17-Nov-2011 09:02

(Sorry for the odd layout above - that's how copy/paste turned out so I tidied up the 12th info)

On that day, in the late afternoon, I had my Billion 7800n connected and found it to gradually produce a slightly better down speed than I'd had.

I had assumed it was the new router giving better speed, but after reading this wonder if it's the changes to BRAS.
I asked on the Zen forum if anyone knew what the 'TR101' is, and it was suggested that it may be this new type of profile.

I haven't yet upgraded to CN21 though.

...and my delight at a steady connection has been short lived as tonight it has slowed down considerably again after being consistent since Monday!

will read your page thanks robertos, the questions are from me tho.

1 - is there still a long delay for rate increases, which effectively cripples lines with sporadic behaviour.
2 - will they apply these improvements to adsl max.

--edit-- question one answered on your page, so is immediate. So now all BTw need to do is the decent thing to apply to adsl max as well.

Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 16-Dec-11 06:19:06)

The BRAS Profile will be the specification number I expect, as in particular set of line parameters. The IP Profile be one value within that.

There are only two possible ways to find your own IP Profile. The prime one is to run the BT Performance Tester, (the full one not the beta), where is shows as Configured download speed on the Testing page and as IP Profile on the Results page.

The second is to check whether your ISP's Control Panel info includes a copy of that, (Plusnet and AAISP have this feature), but that is often a problem area as it can fail to get updated when the BT original changes. Not only that, but the Plusnet system at least hasn't been updated to handle the new ones.

Edit - it looks to be the line of style adsl3500.

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 16-Dec-11 09:11:18)

Thank you - I'm not very tech minded, so a lot of the terminology is new to me.

I need to install Java on this computer to do a BT test - tried a few weeks ago only to have it screw things up, but perhaps I downloaded 64bit instead of 32 ..I'll try again. See edit below.

In the ISP control panel, the first part is what I copied above: 'Line Rate Data', there's also 'Synchronisation Data' and finally 'Service Profile Data'. If it's Service Profile Data, mine has info for the 17th Nov (the day I was connected with the new ISP)
It just has: Noise Margin Reset: N - Run Mode: Fast - Run Mode Changed: N - Interleave: Auto.
It took two days for the Line Rate Data in my earlier post to show the info for 12th.

Re your edit - you think TR101 is the same as adsl3500? ...just a different way of defining it.

EDIT: Downloaded Java 32, did the BT test and my IP Profile is 4969
It says my line is capable of 7150 and that no problems were detected, so any I've had could be congestion or a slow response server.

B4dger - not on my line at the moment then

Edited by deleted (Fri 16-Dec-11 15:10:00)

BT are calling it *BRAS Quantisation*

I'm afraid it's not for 20CN lines

A bit of confusion around .

The BRAS is the Broadband Remote Access Server, which has several preset setup parameters and at least one variable one. The variable one is the IP Profile, which reflects the current connection speed. Yours now seems to be a percentage of the sync speed, which you didn't post, as 4969 is a new-style figure, where your earlier post ones were old-style. (The best thing with BT Performance Test results is to copy and paste as far as the end of the upload figures).

adsl3500 was clearly an IP Profile of 3500kbps, and similarly with the adsl4000 etc. Those were the expected values for the connection speeds using the old system. It could be the Zen system doesn't yet cope with the new system, (as with Plusnet), but the figure there, which is probably lower than the BT Performance Tester one, will I expect be slowing you a bit by being lower than the BT figure.

I think the TR101 is the name of a set of the setup parameters, but I am just guessing. So I just googled it, and the intro to the first thing I opened says:-

Migration to Ethernet Based DSL Aggregation TR-101
April, 2006 . Page 2
Abstract:
This Technical Report outlines how an ATM aggregation network can be migrated to an
Ethernet based aggregation network in the context of TR-25 and TR-59 based
architectures. This document provides an architectural/topological model of such an
Ethernet based aggregation network that supports the business requirements in TR-
058. In doing so it describes requirements for protocol translation and interworking,
QoS, multicast, security, and OAM for a DSL aggregation network.

That's clear then!

Edit - corrected as per b4dger's post.

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 16-Dec-11 18:50:40)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

A bit of confusion around .

The BRAS is the Basic Rate Adaptive System

Huh?!?

That's not what I thought:
bt bras broadband remote access server

Isn't that what I said?

Thanks. Amazing - I must have picked that up from somewhere years ago and just went with it!

Thank you so much for explaining that. So many numbers involved, and for someone like me, takes some unravelling initially.
Sorry re the omission of sync - did another ..sync appears to match what's shown in the router interface:

Download Speed
4572 Kbps
0 Kbps 7150 Kbps
Max Achievable Speed

Download speed achieved during the test was - 4572 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 2000-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :5632 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 4969 Kbps

2. Upstream Test: -provides background information.

Upload Speed
363 Kbps
0 Kbps 448 Kbps
Max Achievable Speed

>Upload speed achieved during the test was - 363 Kbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 448 Kbps

So am I to understand that as long as this new router holds the connecteion fairly steady for some days, the profile will change again? My sync down before Monday was 4800-5184 (on good days).

Regarding the TR101, I tried Google too but the info was way beyond my understanding

Also, is it hit and miss as to whether CN21 improves or worsens things (or stays the same).
I'm trying to get the line stable before I think of upgrading to FTTC. Also getting a new master socket fitted on 29th.

Things become clearer here.

At the time of the November info you gave earlier, the IP Profile was being determined accounting to the old system As in the adsl3500 being an IP Profile of 3500kbps and so on.

The 12 December one is showing a sync speed of sync of 5184kbps, with a line rate of 4573kbps = 88.2% of 5184.

Your performance test here shows sync 5632 and an IP Profile 88.2% of that = 4969kbps.

Those two sets of figures indicate the new system, that you are on ADSL2+ (CN21) and that Zen are picking up the IP Profile changes.

The sync of 5632kbps, if this becomes consistent, suggests that the move to ADSL2+ has been quite beneficial. At this sort of speed an increase on changing from ADSL to ADSL2+ is not guaranteed.

With regard to FTTC, that is a whole new ball game. Your highest sync at the moment is mainly determined by your distance from the exchange, barring the effect of faults, and the noise hitting the line between the exchange and you. Plus of course any wiring issues at home, which you are addressing.

On FTTC, the whole of the distance from the exchange to the street cabinet serving you is eliminated. The factors that I describe above that affect your speed will only apply to the link from the cabinet(s) to you and your wiring. If you haven't read my FTTC explananation, have a look .

Yup, this is pretty nice.

Was on 11000000 BT (stepped) BRAS, with the 95% of BRAS (VoIP) limiter set on A&A side, meaning my actual line through-put speed was 10450000.

Line rate is now currently 12692000 on the BT (non-stepped) BRAS, meaning my line through-put has jumped (with the 95% A&A limiter) to 12057400. 1607400 (1.6Mb) faster.

Back of the net.

Yes, the first one on 17th Nov was the day I migrated to Zen.
The subsequent ones were lower as the connection wasn't stable.
The one on 12th was at around 5.30am (but didn't show up there until 14th)
Late afternoon on 12th, my new router was connected (Zen had wondered if my old one had a fault).
It synced at 5632 right away, and apart from what appears to be one disconnect on the second day, has so far remained stable and synced the same. Noise has varied between 6.5 to 5Db. Speed tests show approx 4.8mb.
I did get slow downs and slow page/email loads from early yesterday evening, but it's ok today, and unlike the Netgear after a slow-down, didn't disconnect.

The TR101 info didn't show up until 14th and initially I thought it was to do with the new router/better connection.

While setting up the router, I asked the tech chap about CN21 - he checked and said no, I'm not on it and if I'd like to be, to click on the 'upgrade' link in the portal and request it. I haven't done that yet though in case it complicated things. Wonder if he was mistaken.

I have just read your FTTC info - thank you. I'm 1.6mts from exchange (NEILB) but not sure about street cab position. I must look for it

My apologies - I'd thought the TR101 was to do with the subject of this thread ..obviously not. I do appreciate the explanations and help though.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Isn't that what I said?

Thanks. Amazing - I must have picked that up from somewhere years ago and just went with it!

How true.

Well a couple of years ago anyway

Mac

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Amazing - I must have picked that up from somewhere years ago and just went with it!

How true.

Well a couple of years ago anyway

Mac

Heh!!!!!

I got away with it that time though. 2.5 years ago, so it must have been before that.

Like many acronym expansions, just as useful in fact, even though wrong. It is indeed central to BT Rate Adaptive DSL.

From the BT Performance test, you are now on WBC (21CN is an overall term for a complete revamp of the BT phone and broadband network. WBC and WBMC are the BT Wholesale broadband products running on that network. See my website again . You should say WBC or ADSL2+).

On 12 December the data you posted suggests you were on 20CN. That would be from a simple migration of your service. I would expect you would still be on 20CN immediately after the migration, so he would be correct.

Most ISPs automatically transfer people after a time once WBC is available, so that seems to have happened. Some ISPs offer an earlier transfer on request. You were told how to make that request but didn't, and since then it has taken place anyway.

I've been on 21CN a while now (EALOW exchange), and over the last month or so the line has gotten a lot more stable, part of that may be down to my new Fritz!box though.

Here's where I'm at:

Receive Direction Send Direction
Max. DSLAM throughput kbit/s 16352 1280
Min. DSLAM throughput kbit/s 160 32
Attainable throughput kbit/s 3484 756
Current throughput kbit/s 3480 755

Latency 1 ms 1 ms
Bitswap on on
Seamless Rate Adaptation off off
Impulse Noise Protection (INP) 0.0 0.0
Energy-saving mode L2 NA - -

Signal-to-noise ratio dB 4 6
Line attenuation dB 51 30
Power Reduction dB 0 0
Carrier record A43 A43


Anyone have any idea if SRA will ever be enabled?

Unfortunately it looks like I'm still stuck with 2.6mbit downloads rather than the new profile at the moment:

Upstream Downstream Sync Rate BRAS Profile Interleave Sync Date Date
754 3069 3480 TR101 Auto 15-Dec-2011 09:03 15-Dec-2011 09:03
754 2500 2848 adsl2500-b Auto 07-Dec-2011 05:12 07-Dec-2011 05:12
786 2500 2848 adsl2500-b Auto 21-Nov-2011 18:48 21-Nov-2011 18:48
835 2500 2848 adsl2500-b Auto 19-Nov-2011 04:58 19-Nov-2011 04:58
815 1500 1728 adsl1500-b Auto 26-Oct-2011 19:51 26-Oct-2011 19:51
850 1500 1728 adsl1500-b Auto 25-Oct-2011 22:47 25-Oct-2011 22:47
827 1750 2016 adsl1750-b Auto 25-Oct-2011 21:27 25-Oct-2011 21:27
839 2000 2272 adsl2000-b Auto 15-Oct-2011 21:58 15-Oct-2011 21:58
920 2500 2848 adsl2500-b Auto 02-Oct-2011 06:10 02-Oct-2011 06:10
499 2000 2272 adsl2000-b Auto 02-Sep-2011 08:42 02-Sep-2011 08:42

Edited by Stoo (Sat 17-Dec-11 00:24:18)

In reply to a post by Stoo:

Unfortunately it looks like I'm still stuck with 2.6mbit downloads

Where? You are getting 3.4 Meg!

Thank you - I hadn't known what WBC and WBMC were.
I certainly wouldn't be able to tell from that BT test which it was - glad you can tell!

Looking at my line data page, it states:
'Your current maximum download speed is 4573Kbps.
Your current line technology is WBMC.'
The page must need updating. The speed mentioned is almost what was achieved on the BT test.

When you say 'simple migration of service' - is that the new router?

I just read the ISP's page regarding 21CN and they say it's a two stage process - first step causes a brief disconnect (I had one on 13th) - second step is that the customer must request it from the upgrade section to have it implemented.
Perhaps they just did it anyway.

It hasn't had a detrimental effect as some people find. It's obviously far from the 'up to 20mbps' service sadly, but BT does say there that my max achievable is 7150.
Whatever, it slowed again late tonight a bit, but not caused any problems, so things do seem far better

In reply to a post by TrishaH:

It's obviously far from the 'up to 20mbps' service sadly,

"Up to" are the operative words! It all mainly depends on your line length.

What are your router stats?

A new router is not a "migration of service'". That would be the change of ISP that you did on 17 Nov, in this case.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Sat 17-Dec-11 00:58:06)

Thank you - Yes, 'Up to' is just that

Router stats ADSL status:
Parameters
DSP Firmware Version A2pB025f.d22k
DMT Status No Defect
Operational Mode G.DMT
Upstream 448
Downstream 5632
SNR Margin(Upstream) 23.0
SNR Margin(Downstream) 5.7
Line Attenuation(Upstream) 23.0
Line Attenuation(Downstream) 44.0

Device information:
Model Name BiPAC 7800N
Host Name home.gateway
System Up-Time 3 Day(s) 7 Hour(s)
Current Time Sat Dec 17 01:03:59 2011
Hardware Version Annex A
Software Version 1.06d
MAC Address
LAN IPv6 Address

Re migration part - I thought that but RobertoS mentioned 12th Dec info along with 'simple migration'.

Edited by deleted (Sat 17-Dec-11 10:46:05)

You're not on WBC yet. You're still running ADSL Max, tho' you might be on something called IPStream Connect (IPSC).

Even so, you should be getting at least 6 Meg Sync.

I should blank out remove completely your MAC & LAN Addresses.

Thank you - Addresses removed!

Perhaps the speed will improve when we get the socket moved/replaced. The new router has improved it a bit.
Currently have an old, small master socket upstairs and computer on an extension.

Latest speed tests - the one in the sig is old..

I top out at 330KB/sec = around 2.6 mbit/s

Edit, ah, there we go

Edited by Stoo (Sat 17-Dec-11 11:14:59)

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

You're not on WBC yet. You're still running ADSL Max, tho' you might be on something called IPStream Connect (IPSC).

Nope - the information we have been given is a WBMC connection, which for the purpose of this discussion is the same as WBC, ie 21CN. The G.DMT does, I agree, indicate an ADSL "profile",( not to be confused with IP Profile), is in place, limiting the speeds to 8128/448kbps.

A dog is an animal, but an animal is not necessarily a dog. ADSL Max was G.DMT, but G.DMT is not necessarily ADSL Max.

The WBMC is borne out by the IP Profile from the BT test - that is only possible on WBC/WBMC connections - and the line rate shown in the Zen control panel. IPSC is not such a connection. (The new profiling runs on WBC MSANs, and IPSC is for getting 20CN DSLAM connections through to a WBC/WBMC MSIL).

In conjunction with the earlier posts about Zen support and the upgrade request, I think that will be what he is talking about. Switching to G.992.5 instead of G.DMT.

Re the connection speed itself, I agree it is low for the attenuation. We need to see what happens after the NTE5 is installed.

@Trishah - as XRaySpeX says, by "simple migration" I meant the move from your previous ISP to Zen.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The WBMC is borne out by the IP Profile from the BT test - that is only possible on WBC/WBMC connections

As a matter of interest, what makes it WBMC as opposed to WBC? Is it because another ISP other than BT, i.e. Zen, is running off BTw's WBC?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Re the connection speed itself, I agree it is low for the attenuation. We need to see what happens after the NTE5 is installed.

@Trishah - as XRaySpeX says, by "simple migration" I meant the move from your previous ISP to Zen.

OK - migration was 17th November.
As you say, let's see what happens after 29th when I get a 'proper' socket.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The WBMC is borne out by the IP Profile from the BT test - that is only possible on WBC/WBMC connections

As a matter of interest, what makes it WBMC as opposed to WBC? Is it because another ISP other than BT, i.e. Zen, is running off BTw's WBC?

WBC has user traffic hard-routed to whichever one of the 20 WBC nodes BT decide. This hard connection is at the MSAN in the exchange, and different MSANs in the same exchange do sometimes route to different nodes, according to the data/map once published by ADSL24. (I assume BT put the mockers on that). ISPs using WBC have to arrange to collect their traffic from every one of those nodes.

WBMC adds routing within the underlying WBC network, so that an ISP may opt instead to collect their traffic, for all customers, at just one of those 20 nodes. It was originally suggested that they may be able to use a few but the initial implementation was only one. I don't know the current status of that. For smaller ISPs WBMC is clearly to be preferred on cost grounds. Twenty MSILs all over the country with backhaul from each is hugely expensive. I only know of Entanet doing it.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Re the connection speed itself, I agree it is low for the attenuation. We need to see what happens after the NTE5 is installed.

I just had the new NTE5 master socket fitted in my work room - all other extensions now defunct.

This is my router ADSL status right after:
DSP Firmware Version A2pB025f.d22k
DMT Status No Defect
Operational Mode G.DMT
Upstream 448
Downstream 7552
SNR Margin(Upstream) 22.0
SNR Margin(Downstream) 6.1
Line Attenuation(Upstream) 23.0
Line Attenuation(Downstream) 43.0

And this is a BT test I just did also:
1. Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Download Speed
6156 Kbps

0 Kbps 7150 Kbps
Max Achievable Speed

Download speedachieved during the test was - 6156 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 2000-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :7552 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 6662 Kbps

2. Upstream Test: -provides background information.

Upload Speed
359 Kbps

0 Kbps 448 Kbps
Max Achievable Speed

>Upload speed achieved during the test was - 359 Kbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 448 Kbps

That's better than the last one I posted, and my speedtest showed a speed increase of approx. 2mbps right after the router was re-connected.

Remains to be seen if it stays good - been getting slowly decreasing speeds throughout each day, going to under 1mbps at times, so internet and email virtually useless. Always starts the day around 4.5-4.8, and sometimes drops late afternoon, sometimes late evening. This began in mid-October, so I'm hoping it was some wiring breaking down somewhere.
BT chap has taken new wiring from where the line comes to the house, routed it around the outside wall and in to the new socket.
My new router doesn't drop the connection like the Netgear did, and with this new socket, at least I've eliminated any likely problem within the house.

Looking good .

Definitely worth asking them to put you on G.992.5, ADSL2+. Depending on whether or not that causes an attenuation rise to about 46dB, it could make little difference to downstream, or at best another 1.5kbps connection speed. Your upstream connection would be over 1Mbps, if that's of any interest to you.

As you say, let's see how you go for throughput now.

Thank you - I was wondering about ADSL2 but will see how things go for a while.

It's still got good speed (it had dropped by 4pm yesterday), and last night, a BT test showed results below 'acceptable', telling me to contact isp.

The BT 'phone engineer couldn't tell how the main line got into the house because he found the actual one on the outside garage wall - the box we could see with a wire going up into the main bedroom was an extension box taking service into the house! He thought perhaps it had been taken under the garage floor. He disconnected that and wired up the bunch of wires he found on the oppposite wall.
18 years ago, a BT engineer fitting sockets in the house said that the one upstairs was our master socket, so we've always thought it just an old type box- feel happy to be rid of the four extensions and connected to a proper socket.

So, I had been thinking of upgrading to FTTC as a final resort, but if things remain steady, and with the option of potentially better with ADSL2, I'll wait a while. (They don't 'run out' of FTTC availability do they?)
A better upload speed would be useful at times for larger image files and website purposes. Super fast down speed isn't really necessary for me if I can maintain 6+ or a little more.

It's initially ADSL2+ we are talking about. ADSL2 is not the same thing, and probably not worth having for you. If you call Zen and ask for ADSL2 they may get confused .

Ah right! Thank you.

For now I'll just wait & see

Yesterday, I ordered ADSL2+ - when I'd asked last week, someone did tell me I'd likely get 13Mbps down and around 800k up, so yesterday I decideed to go ahead, and it was done overnight.

They had said I'd likely need to unplug the router and re-connect, but it appears to have done that by itself overnight (up time for WAN 6hrs 47min), and the router now states 'ADSL2+' and the speeds/SNR/Attenuation figures have changed.

Sadly, (but perhaps not unexpected) I have not got that ISP quoted speed - instead a slight drop to around 6.3, but the up speed has increased to 0.92. (previously 6.47 and 0.37).
Seems they were wrong and you were right!
Todays relevant router info below:

ADSL Status
Parameters
DSP Firmware Version A2pB025f.d22k
DMT Status No Defect
Operational Mode ADSL2+
Upstream 1087
Downstream 7424
SNR Margin(Upstream) 6.3
SNR Margin(Downstream) 7.2
Line Attenuation(Upstream) 22.7
Line Attenuation(Downstream) 46.0


WAN Interface
ADSL Mode: Annex L Annex M (ticked)
Modulator ADSL2 ADSL2+ G.Lite T1.413 G.Dmt (all ticked)
Capability SRA Enable x
PhyR Upstream Downstream x


WAN Profile
Parameters
Profile Port ADSL
Protocol PPPoA
Description VPI / VCI 0 / 38 Encap. method VC/MUX
Username Password
NAT Enable IP (0.0.0.0: Auto) Auth. Protocol Auto
NAT Enable MAC Spoofing
NAT Enable
IP (0.0.0.0: Auto) Netmask Gateway
Obtain DNS Automatic Primary Secondary
Connection Always On Idle Timeout 0 min(s) [1 - 1440] MTU 1492
MAC Spoofing
IPv6 Enable x

Edit Protocol Interface Description VPI VCI Encap. method NAT IP IPv6 Delete
PPPoA ppp_0_0_38_1 pppoa_0_0_38_2 0 38 VC/MUX Enable 0.0.0.0

In reply to a post by TrishaH:

Upstream 1087
Downstream 7424

These figures look better. What does BT report here: http://speedtester.bt.com/ ?

EDIT: I got a bit confused there - I think you were perhaps quoting results from a speed test when you said about change in speeds?

I've just read this complete thread - I'm even more confused now

It's worth a router restart during 'daylight' hours to see if those stats improve as you have a healthy downstream SNR margin...

Edited by b4dger (Wed 11-Jan-12 12:46:37)

In reply to a post by b4dger:

In reply to a post by TrishaH:

Upstream 1087
Downstream 7424

These figures look better. What does BT report here: http://speedtester.bt.com/ ?

EDIT: I got a bit confused there - I think you were perhaps quoting results from a speed test when you said about change in speeds?

I've just read this complete thread - I'm even more confused now

It's worth a router restart during 'daylight' hours to see if those stats improve as you have a healthy downstream SNR margin...

Around 7:30-8:00 AM (in early January) seems to be about the right time, the SNR might rise a little more during the day but it will be out of the night/dark phase and the modem should hold the line overnight as the SNR dips down to possibly 3dB.

Yes, I've been using Speedtest throughout for continuity. Sorry if it's all confusing - just to recap: I used to get constant connection drops and speeds which gradually became unusable as the day wore on, but were back to normal next morning.
A new router on Dec 12th completely stopped the connection drops, and a new socket & wiring on 29th made the speed much better and totally stable.
The ADSL2+ upgrade happened around 5am this morning apparently, and those details in my post above are stats from before lunch.

A new BT test is as follows:
1. Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Download Speed
6423 Kbps
0 Kbps 7150 Kbps Max Achievable Speed

Download speed achieved during the test was - 6423 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 2000-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :7867 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 1083 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 6940 Kbps

2. Upstream Test: -provides background information.
Upload Speed
831 Kbps
0 Kbps 1083 Kbps
Max Achievable Speed

>Upload speed achieved during the test was - 831 Kbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 1083 Kbps


Since posting earlier today, I got three losses of connection. Last one didn't reconnect, so spoke to ISP. They did line tests and it reconnected. He did say there'd been some up HEC errors.
He also told me that although two pairs of cabinets are 60-70mts from us in either direction, our line appears to be almost 3km long! So perhaps that's why I didn't get the better ADSL2+ speeds?

Anyway, since it reconnected I did the above BT test.

In reply to a post by TrishaH:

He also told me that although two pairs of cabinets are 60-70mts from us in either direction, our line appears to be almost 3km long! So perhaps that's why I didn't get the better ADSL2+ speeds?

Anyway, since it reconnected I did the above BT test.

It does not matter where the PCPs (cabinets) are, the line on an ADSL circuit goes from you, through the PCP and finally back to the exchange. It is that full distance that matters.

I see - on the exchange details it's shown as 1.6km, but that's 'as the crow flies' - it's obviously far longer.

WAN Interface
ADSL Mode: Annex L Annex M (ticked)
Modulator ADSL2 ADSL2+ G.Lite T1.413 G.Dmt (all ticked)

Untick Annex L Annex M.
Untick all except ADSL2.

See what stats you get then .

Don't worry, you can't do any harm.

OK - I'll try that!

....done, and still the same.

I did ask about the Annex M part earlier but they said it was irrelevant whether ticked or not because of them using PPoA - still, it was worth a try

Edited by deleted (Wed 11-Jan-12 15:57:20)

Speeds, sync & throughput, are good and about as to be expected. Whoever told you 13 Meg was lying and I hope not on here.

Please can you post the stats though .

"Lying" is a bit strong perhaps? Sadly mis-informed though. I assume it was Zen support, who earlier said she wasn't on 21CN, when she clearly was.

There would be no point in their lying as it isn't even a product change for them, just a setting of an ADSL2+ profile rather than G.DMT.

That's good to know anyway!

No, definitely not here!
It's been my constant reading here and trying to understand more that made me ask them about the speed expectation, and I was sceptical, so not totally surprised this morning.

Yes - which stats would you like - ADSL from the router?


As for your next post, yes you're right.
Zen have been helpful in every way, but as with anywhere, there's tech knowledge of varying degrees! The one in November that pinpointed the router as causing the connection drops was spot-on. The ADSL2+ estimate from another was way off.
Having known nothing much about broadband until I had problems in October, I've managed to understand more by reading here, so did at least expect that 13meg to be ambitious - you'd implied it wouldn't make much difference a few weeks ago, and my computer company said the same just last week.

In reply to a post by TrishaH:

Yes - which stats would you like - ADSL from the router?

Yes, the latest version of this bit from your 11:38 post, assuming you still have it with only the ADSL2 ticked:-

ADSL Status
Parameters
DSP Firmware Version A2pB025f.d22k
DMT Status No Defect
Operational Mode ADSL2+
Upstream 1087
Downstream 7424
SNR Margin(Upstream) 6.3
SNR Margin(Downstream) 7.2
Line Attenuation(Upstream) 22.7
Line Attenuation(Downstream) 46.0


WAN Interface 
ADSL Mode: Annex L Annex M (ticked)
Modulator ADSL2 ADSL2+ G.Lite T1.413 G.Dmt (all ticked)
Capability SRA Enable x
PhyR Upstream Downstream x

Yes, still as you advised trying earlier - these are the stats right now. The SNR has changed a few times today and also in the past couple of hours. They've varied between up/down 5.6/7.3 late mornng, through 6.2/6.1, then 6.2/5.2, and now as below:

ADSL Status
Parameters
DSP Firmware Version A2pB025f.d22k
DMT Status No Defect
Operational Mode ADSL2+
Upstream 1075
Downstream 7840
SNR Margin(Upstream) 6.2
SNR Margin(Downstream) 4.9
Line Attenuation(Upstream) 22.7
Line Attenuation(Downstream) 45.5

ADSL Mode WAN Interface
ADSL Mode Annex L Annex M (none ticked)
Modulator ADSL2 ADSL2+ G.Lite T1.413 G.Dmt (only ADSL2+ ticked)
Capability SRA Enable x
PhyR Upstream Downstream x

LOL!

The reason there has been no real change is you left the ADSL2+ ticked. I said ADSL2 . Though it is 400kbps higher than this morning.

I'm aiming to reduce the attenuation by doing that, and the speed should rise. Also the stability of the SNRM may improve. So change the tick, reconnect, then get the stats . Though as it is now dark we won't get as much improvement as I was looking for.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 11-Jan-12 18:34:35)

Oh dear sorry! Glad you're laughing!
So, I'll go back, untick ADSL2+ and tick ADSL2 then tell it to save.
Thanks.

Right - done that (only ADSL2 ticked) and it has become a bit slower:

ADSL Status
Parameters
DSP Firmware Version A2pB025f.d22k
DMT Status No Defect
Operational Mode ADSL2
Upstream 1080
Downstream 7047
SNR Margin(Upstream) 6.4
SNR Margin(Downstream) 6.2
Line Attenuation(Upstream) 22.7
Line Attenuation(Downstream) 42.5

Device Information
Model Name BiPAC 7800N
System Up-Time 6 Hour(s) 50 min(s)
Hardware Version Annex A
Software Version 1.06d

Physical Port Status
Ethernet
EWAN
ADSL 1080 / 7047 kbps This was 1083/7867 earlier
Wireless

WAN
Port Protocol VPI/VCI Operation Connection IP Address Netmask Gateway Primary DNS
ADSL PPPoA 0/38 connection up: 00:03:56

Re what b4dger says - shall I leave it as is and see how it is in the morning?

Edited by deleted (Wed 11-Jan-12 18:58:09)

...and remember that your best connection speeds will be when you reconnect/restart during daylight hours!

Ah well . But as b4dger and I have said, not the best time.

During daylight try two reconnections. One with ADSL2 ticked, and one with ADSL2+. Give us the stats for both . It's really a question of just seeing which is best for your line.

Don't do a lot of reconnections though, especially within an hour.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Ah well . But as b4dger and I have said, not the best time.

During daylight try two reconnections. One with ADSL2 ticked, and one with ADSL2+. Give us the stats for both . It's really a question of just seeing which is best for your line.

OK - shall I leave it as it is until morning and then change to ADSL2+ and copy the stats, then after a while, change it to ADSL2 and copy the stats again?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Don't do a lot of reconnections though, especially within an hour.

Right, understood - it only seems to disconnect the Internet not the whole thing. Does that count?
Whatever, I'll leave an hour or so between each change.

By the way, I hardly ever look at the system log on the router because it's just a lot of repetetive self checks, but I did look earlier - lots of different stuff in there relating to todays status changes/disconnects etc, and I saw a few lines where it had tried to change the MTU to 1500 (from 1492) but failed ...do you want to see those logs?

It's OK doing the two reconnects in an hour, just not lots of them .

Not bothered about the logs, but it could be you should be on 1500 MTU. I forget what version of Windows you are on?

It's Windows 7 Pro.

I did ask Zen about the MTU and he said it was fine - I don't think the log ever showed it trying to get 1500 before though, but I only look at it after any changes.
The 1492 was fine on standard ADSL, but the log shows it trying to get 1500 each time it disconnected today.

Perhaps best to just stick with the ADSL2+ and ADSL2 trials for now?

Yes, one thing at a time. But only because two at a time is pushing it at my age.

Yes - getting that way myself! I have to take screen snips or notes everytime I do anything like this or I'd forget what I did!

I see your detection of double entendre is in suspension .

If I new where to find a laughing smiley here, I'd post a row of em!

These are the stats this morning-

At start-up this morning, with ADSL2 ticked:
ADSL Status
Parameters
DSP Firmware Version A2pB025f.d22k
DMT Status No Defect
Operational Mode ADSL2
Upstream 1080
Downstream 7047
SNR Margin(Upstream) 6.5
SNR Margin(Downstream) 7.8
Line Attenuation(Upstream) 22.7
Line Attenuation(Downstream) 42.5

After changing to ADSL2+:
ADSL Status
Parameters
DSP Firmware Version A2pB025f.d22k
DMT Status No Defect
Operational Mode ADSL2+
Upstream 1087
Downstream 7939
SNR Margin(Upstream) 6.0
SNR Margin(Downstream) 6.1
Line Attenuation(Upstream) 22.8
Line Attenuation(Downstream) 45.5

A Speedtest done for both showed 6.03 for ADSL2 and 6.80 for ADSL2+ (up speed 0.92 for both)

That looks like you didn't reconnect the ADSL2 link, only start up the computer having left the router on overnight .

Swap back to ADSL2 and see .

I'm away till the evening now, but if it is still worse than ADSL2+, tick ADSL2+, ADSL2 and G.DMT. Reconnect it and that's it

If it is better on ADSL2, tick ADSL2 and G.DMT, but not ADSL2+.

The reason for ticking the two or three is in case you get a line fault. It can then train down to one of the lower ones if necessary.

Edited by RobertoS (Thu 12-Jan-12 11:44:44)

I now changed it back to ADSL2:

ADSL Status
Parameters
DSP Firmware Version A2pB025f.d22k
DMT Status No Defect
Operational Mode ADSL2
Upstream 1080
Downstream 7539
SNR Margin(Upstream) 6.3
SNR Margin(Downstream) 6.1
Line Attenuation(Upstream) 22.8
Line Attenuation(Downstream) 42.5

Speedtest gave 6.46 down.

I'm surmising that you'll say that ADSL2+ ticked (plus those that you advise) is where to set it, so will do that.

This is the result (left AnnexM unticked):

ADSL Status (changed back to ADSL2+/ADSL2/GDMT)
Parameters
DSP Firmware Version A2pB025f.d22k
DMT Status No Defect
Operational Mode ADSL2+ (and ADSL2+ & G.DMT)
Upstream 1087
Downstream 7895
SNR Margin(Upstream) 6.4
SNR Margin(Downstream) 6.3
Line Attenuation(Upstream) 22.8
Line Attenuation(Downstream) 45.5

A Speedtest showed 6.76 down.

Edited by deleted (Thu 12-Jan-12 14:31:44)

Yep. Clearly that's best for that line . It's also at about the best that anyone on 45.5dB attenuation gets. The fiddling with ADSL2 was just in case you could get a bit more, because as you can see the attenuation on ADSL2 is lower. It was unlikely, but worth a try.

Good luck now .

Thanks for all the help.
It was worth trying

What causes the 45.5db ...line length?

I see the SNR down is currently 4.6 for the time being.

Do I forget about the router trying to achieve 1500MTU - I see it trying numerous times again today while doing those changes ...would it make any difference anyway?

A Speedtest just done is 6.8/.92 so still a bit better than before and double on the upload speed.

I'll see if remains nice and stable ...if not, I can always go to FTTC

I've forgotten if you have said what version of Windows you are using. What is it please, or are you on a Mac?

It's Windows 7 Pro 64bit

Just an update - the connection has now been completely sound for 8 days with very little speed variation - usually 6.7 down .92 up

The first sign of the new TR101 info first appeared in my connection info in the early hours of Dec 12th, and although a new router was connected later that day, that never changed despite the new router giving a better sync speed and none of the disconnects I'd been getting for some weeks beforehand. (combination of router and internal wiring problems. The new wiring and master socket were done on Dec 29th, and earlier this month I upgraded to ADSL2+)
But, today the TR101 info has been updated:

Upstream Downstream Sync Rate BRAS Profile Interleave Sync Date
1087 6965 7895 TR101 Auto 19 Jan-2012 09:30
416 4573 5184 TR101 Auto 12-Dec-201 05:29
0 3500 4000 adsl3500 Auto 22-Nov-2011 19:15
Your current maximum download speed is 6965Kbps.
Your current line technology is WBMC.

And the router ADSL status:

DSP Firmware Version A2pB025f.d22k
DMT Status No Defect
Operational Mode ADSL2+
Upstream 1087
Downstream 7895
SNR Margin(Upstream) 6.4
SNR Margin(Downstream) 3.8
Line Attenuation(Upstream) 22.8
Line Attenuation(Downstream) 45.5

It's definitely better than it was!

Just spotted that the 6965 figure in the TR101 line is the BT IP Profile. What does the Current line speed in your PN Portal say? 6900?

Edited by RobertoS (Thu 19-Jan-12 23:12:49)

Sorry Bob - what's the PN portal please?

I thought that was what they called it. Control panel perhaps?

Anyway, (you'll need to log in) - https://portal.plus.net/my.html?action=data_transfer...

Ah - I'm with Zen ...don't think I've seen that info there ..or is it?

D'oh! .

Dunno. It doesn't really matter at this stage. Is there a User/Customer control panel/centre or anything sounding similar though? If so, have a browse around it.

Yes - that's where I get the line profile updated info from.
I'll go and have another look, but can't recall having seen that info anywhere

No, that's the only line data shown in the account info area.

Edited by deleted (Thu 19-Jan-12 23:44:03)

It's OK, I just had a mental blackout! Getting quite frequent .

That figure is the BT IP Profile. It should agree with what the BT Speed test says, and at the moment appears to do so, as it should be around 88.28% of the connection speed. It is.

Yes - I did a BT test on 15th and it showed the same figures.
It all seems to be working well since you had me 'untick' a few things

I can't get my head back in work mode, and getting way behind! ...never used to be like this!
Never mind, perhaps I'll wake up full of motivation, inspiration and energy tomorrow!

Thought I'd stick with this thread as this is relevant.

We just had a half hour power cut (whole area: network fault).
The router re-synced and I checked the stats which show a new, higher sync rate down, and only 2.3-2.6 SNR down:

DMT Status No Defect
Operational Mode ADSL2+
Upstream 1087
Downstream 8652
SNR Margin(Upstream) 5.7
SNR Margin(Downstream) 2.3
Line Attenuation(Upstream) 22.7
Line Attenuation(Downstream) 45.5

Then I did a couple of Speedtests: 7.41 & 7.50 (up from the previous 6.7 after ADSL2+ upgrade)

Then I did a BT test:
Download Speed
4636 Kbps

0 Kbps 7150 Kbps
Max Achievable Speed

Download speed achieved during the test was - 4636 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 2000-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :8652 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 1087 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 7633 Kbps

2. Upstream Test: -provides background information.

Upload Speed
901 Kbps

0 Kbps 1087 Kbps
Max Achievable Speed

>Upload speed achieved during the test was - 901 Kbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 1087 Kbps

That down speed did not tally with any of four online speed tests done on two different sites. Lowest of the four was 7.4

http://www.speedtest.net/result/1726246924.png

So, apart from the difference between the speedtest results and the BT test, is that down SNR of around 2.4 OK?
Perhaps I should do another BT test tomorrow.

I would say that at some point the DLM has decided your line is stable, (a single power cut should not change its mind), and has lowered the target noise margin to 3dB. A drop of 0.7dB within minutes at this time of night is quite normal. It may even have risen a fraction since. Have a look .

Assuming I'm right about the 3dB target margin, I suggest during daylight tomorrow read stats, disconnect/reconnect, and read again. Let's see what happens. I forecast an even higher sync .

If it is resetting target margins that quickly however, that is something else new and important. It would be great to see it confirmed tomorrow.

Edit - on reading back in the thread, it's a normal sort of timespan for a noise margin drop.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 23-Jan-12 23:37:05)

Do you know exactly when the power supply was restored? Was it in the daylight hours?

I'm surprised your SNRM is that low. Was it in darkness when you collected that stats?

For maximum sync speed, it may be worth your while to instigate a re-sync during daylight hours -- between 1100 and 1300 hours, preferably.

Edit: I see Bob has already replied whilst I was composing this post.

Edited by burakkucat (Mon 23-Jan-12 23:38:30)

Yes, the line has been rock solid ever since we last spoke about it.
So a target noise margin of 3 is OK? ..it's something I don't know much about
It's at 2.8 right now ...no, 2.6 a couple of minutes later.

OK, tomorrow I'll copy the stats and unplug it for a few minutes, then see the stats again. Of course the power cut was in total darkness outside! (aren't they always!)
I hope your forecast is right!

Yes - total darkness ..power cut 9.45-10.15pm

I'll be doing as Bob says around 11am tomorrow (when I get my brain in gear - I'll work until around 2am)
SNR was 6.4 and 3.8 on 19th - been around that for around a week or so.

thanks

I just checked my customer info and see that the TR101 info would appear updated on there around an hour after the router was connected again (if it's not a 24hr clock) after the power cut - but it hasn't changed & doesn't seem to reflect the router stats or the BT test done earlier:

Line rate data
Upstream
Downstream
Sync Rate
BRAS Profile
Interleave
Sync Date

1087 6965 7895 TR101 Auto 23-Jan-2012 11:17
1087 6965 7895 TR101 Auto 19-Jan-2012 09:30
416 4573 5184 TR101 Auto 12-Dec-2011 05:29
I also see that the Synchronisation Data changed on 21st, but have not been aware of any changes in connection that I've noticed:

Synchronisation data

MSR
6816
FTR
5452
MSR Reset Status
N
Date
21-Jan-2012 02:33

Anyway, will note the router stats and then do the disconnect/reconnect tomorrow and post the results.

....did the disconnect/reconnect:

Router Stats:
DMT Status No Defect
Operational Mode ADSL2+
Upstream 1083
Downstream 7867
SNR Margin(Upstream) 6.1
SNR Margin(Downstream) 6.0
Line Attenuation(Upstream) 22.7
Line Attenuation(Downstream) 45.5


BT Test:

1. Best Effort Test: -provides background information.

Download Speed
6389 Kbps

0 Kbps 7150 Kbps
Max Achievable Speed

Download speed achieved during the test was - 6389 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 2000-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :7867 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 1083 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 6940 Kbps

2. Upstream Test: -provides background information.

Upload Speed
807 Kbps

0 Kbps 1083 Kbps
Max Achievable Speed

>Upload speed achieved during the test was - 807 Kbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 1083 Kbps


So, I seem to have gone back to 6.7 (Speedtest) whereas I had 7.4 after the power cut & this morning, and an IP profile of 7633

Yep. That's odd.

The noise margin is back at 6dB, hence the same speed as before, but I can't think of how on earth you got the higher sync after the power cut. That had to be from a 3dB setting.

I saw in the Zen section of TBB that someone who changed to ADSL2+ had no down speed improvement and found this:

"I got onto customer support this morning and after a bit of investigation was told that although I had been upgraded, BT's profile still had me on 8Mbit"

Is it possible this is the case with my connection do you think?

This is the SNR right now:
SNR Margin(Upstream) 5.7
SNR Margin(Downstream) 6.0

No. You are on true ADSL2+. On 8Mbps with Zen the highest connection speed is 8192kbps, "Your DSL Connection Rate :8652 Kbps" would be impossible.

Lots more evidence earlier as well, most obvious being the attenuation changes and the fact that in at least one post it says so.

The MSR info in your 1:58 post also indicates a 10-day "training" started on the 11th, which is when you were upgraded to ADSL2+.

I think in another 10-14 days you may find the noise margin is reset to 3dB. Can't be sure though.

Which reminds me, you didn't take the stats before the disconnect just now, which I asked for . It is highly possible your speed had already dropped. The time for the target noise margin to rise due to something going wrong is "up to" 75 minutes, and causes a reconnection with that setting.

We are never going to know, unless something shows in the latest TR101 data.

Sorry Bob -
I did make a note of the stats at 10.49am this morning - nothing had changed except the SNR which was 3.8 down 5.7 up, and again at 12.45pm just before I disconnected, it was 3.4 & 5.6.

Any good disconnecting for longer than a minute or two and trying again?

In reply to a post by TrishaH:

Sorry Bob -
I did make a note of the stats at 10.49am this morning - nothing had changed except the SNR which was 3.8 down 5.7 up, and again at 12.45pm just before I disconnected, it was 3.4 & 5.6.

Any good disconnecting for longer than a minute or two and trying again?

Fine, as long as you checked the sync, which I'm sure you did.

Another disconenction isn't likely to change anything, but who knows? Just don't do several. Whether it does or doesn't, I suggest after that you leave it alone for a fortnight and see if it drops the SNR back to 3dB.

Yes, this morning everything in the router stats was exactly as last night except the SNR.

Had no choice re a resync this afternoon - alarm had a problem after the power cut and needed the power off for 20 minutes while son checked the back-up battery!

So, when it was back on, these are the stats:

Router:

DMT Status No Defect
Operational Mode ADSL2+
Upstream 1095
Downstream 7799
SNR Margin(Upstream) 5.8
SNR Margin(Downstream) 5.8
Line Attenuation(Upstream) 22.7
Line Attenuation(Downstream) 46.0


BT Test:
1. Best Effort Test: -provides background information.

Download Speed
6347 Kbps

0 Kbps 7150 Kbps
Max Achievable Speed

Download speedachieved during the test was - 6347 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 2000-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :7799 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 1095 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 6880 Kbps

2. Upstream Test: -provides background information.

Upload Speed
824 Kbps

0 Kbps 1095 Kbps
Max Achievable Speed

>Upload speed achieved during the test was - 824 Kbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 1095 Kbps

Shame because before the power cut, the throughput was 6965/1087.
Still, Speedtest not much lower:
1/24/2012 4:33 PM GMT
6.67 Mb/s
0.93 Mb/s
25 ms

I'll do as you say & leave it alone now and see how it goes.

You can console yourself that with 46dB attenuation you cannot get a downstream connection speed of 8000kbps with the normal 6dB margin. You have a very good connection.

Your only chance of higher is if it does lower the sync-time margin to 3dB. Unless you want to start messing around with tweakable routers, but on a BT-Wholesale based connection like yours that can be risky. Best to let the system sort itself out now it does have a 3dB setting. Until recently 6dB was the lowest it would go.

Let us know if it does speed up.

Right - so 46 attenuation isn't good. What causes it to be so high - line length? Lowest I've seen it in the past weeks has been 45.5.

Right now, the SNR is 5 & 5.1Db. In recent weeks that has varied from 3.8-5.4Db down.

I only got that 8652 connection rate after last nights power cut, and it had been 7867 & 7895 on previous BT tests, and now it's 7799.
It all made me wonder if it had suddenly got onto a 'proper' ADSL2+ connection that it then lost after today's re-sync.

Shame really, but no, I don't want to start messing around with tweaking.
After all the problems since October until I got the new router and then the new socket in December, I have to agree that things are far better than they were

I do still have the option of FTTC, and as far as I know the cabinet is only around 60-70yards away, and where we are will have somewhat newer copper than that further down towards the exchange.
I do however wonder if I really want to spend so much more each month for far more potential speed than I need.

I got FTTC partly for the sake of it, but considering I was on £9.50pm on O2 LLU, (connection around 6Mbps which was perfectly adequate), I couldn't justify it. My main excuse was there is an old very dodgy cable between the cabinet and the exchange, and frequently the line would play up and I would get continuous disconnects/reconnects, (20 seconds to connect, 10 seconds up, down again), that would go on for hours if left alone.

It was fixable by doing a Quiet Line Test and leaving that running for several minutes. Sometimes until it timed out and needed dialling again. That usually cured it within seconds, but you had to leave it running as stopping it too early caused the connection to drop again.

I expected/hoped it would be cured by FFTC, and it was . Phone tends to crackle though, so I think that is getting worse.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

but on a BT-Wholesale based connection like yours that can be risky.

In the early days of Orange WBC, when they lumbered me with a high margin, I tweaked it down with no issues arising.

Yes, but given the possibility it could drop to 3dB by itself, and the fact she has only recently got it running as it should, I didn't think it wise, at least for now. It's not as if she is desperate for it, though if she is I'm sure either of us could help.

(Waits while Trishah mops up the coffee).

Do you know if that router is easily tweaked, perhaps for the future?

Yes, strictly for the future.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Do you know if that router is easily tweaked, perhaps for the future?

Dunno, if it's that Billion, but the Netgear might have.

Thanks Bob & XRay -

I think because faster speeds are attainable (either ADSL2+ or FTTC) then I'd like it ..just because - and also because it appears to be far more stable.

I must admit that after all those weeks of frustration, I'm reluctant to muck about with things, or go ahead and order fibre ...in case it has problems.

It seems the Billion 7800n has a couple of features to tweak things - one being Impulse Noise Protection (off by default), the other a hidden fix for SNR tweaks (the info is on spaldwick.com/billion-7800n).

As for mopping up the coffee ..no , when and if I think it may be worth trying, this will be the first port of call!
For now I'll just leave it and see how it goes over the next couple of weeks.
SNR 5 & 5.8 right now

Fibre is still fascinating me though!