Orange throughput query

Hi all,
New here so I apologise in advance if this has already been asked or discussed.
I am an orange broadband customer and I have had a pretty good & reliable service until this week!
Currently my router stats are 4544kbps down and 1115kbps up (usual), however speed tests indicate 0.531 mb/s down and 0.871 mb/s up, so obviously uplink is fine, down is not.

I have done the usual & changed filters, plugged the router in to different socket, unplugged everything else etc.
The only thing I can't do is test the test socket as I don't have one!
Orange are saying that the issue is my end as the router is syncing fine. My issue is reflected in any device I use from laptop to desktop, iPad to iPhone, all speeds are dreadful.

Is it likely that I have an internal wiring / socket fault (even though nothing has changed) or could orange have a throughput issue on my line?

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Regards
StorkyIV

What are your router stats and results from http://speedtester.bt.com/ ?

Are you testing wired or wireless? Wireless is not always the best and you might have started to clash with a neighbour's channel. Try changing channel.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Are you testing wired or wireless? Wireless is not always the best and you might have started to clash with a neighbour's channel. Try changing channel.

Hi XRaySpeX, thanks for responding.

I am on a wired connection straight from the bright box router that orange supply, using both laptop and desktop computers.
Stats are in my original post and haven't changed, but latest BT test results are: 0.06 Mbps down and 0.83 up. Ip profile down is 4.01 ip profile up is 0.83.

This surely must be an ISP thing right?

In reply to a post by StorkyIV:

Stats are in my original post

Not all of them! Like to see NMs and attenuations.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by StorkyIV:

Stats are in my original post

Not all of them! Like to see NMs and attenuations.

Sorry buddy!

Upstream NM 6.2db, Attenuation 24.5db
Downstream NM 8.0db Attenuation 39db

Is there anything else that would help?

StorkyIV

Have you Removed the Ring Wire & other Improvements for your adsl broadband connection speed?

Your sync speed is running about half speed for your line.

Thanks,

I'm going to check bell wire etc in a minute & all socket connections.
Isn't it unusual though that the connection has been fine for the past few months with orange, equally the same with sky for the past 2 years and now this sudden decrease in performance?

Yes!

Did you get same sync with Sky?

Yes I did.
My point though is that my download speed used to be very close to my sync speed and over the past couple of days download speed has dropped massively.
So could the bell wire or internal cabling affect download speeds or are orange fobbing me off?

TBH it looks more like exchange congestion, but removing bell wire could up your sync and therefore your throughput.

What exchange? There are sites that tell you of issues at exchanges, but can't remember them. You will need to search TBB forums.

Well I am amazed & would never have thought it - I have removed the bell wire and download speed went up straight away! Thank you very much indeed.

Sync speed has not increased, but download is near matching sync - so is good enough!
What would have caused the bell wire to suddenly interfere?

Once again - thank you!

Doubt the bell wire was the cause. Orange is oversubscribed.

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

Orange is oversubscribed.

Evidence?

Generalisation! Explain how I've got 16 Meg throughput on 19 Meg Sync for over a year on WBC?

Tho' I'd agree bell wire unlikely to be direct cause. Proof will be in the pudding!

Surely Orange use WBC, therefore any increase in sync rate, gained by bellwire removal, will not produce an instant increase in throughput speed, due to the IP profile system ?

If the OP has affect a lasting cure to their problem by bellwire removal, then this would imply that it has cleared a high FEC error rate, which will be seen instantly as more throughput speed. 'Course this would now be hard to prove as we were not shown full 'before and after' stats.

I'd still put money on exchange/ISP contention, and coincidence when running speed tests.

In reply to a post by StorkyIV:

Well I am amazed & would never have thought it - I have removed the bell wire and download speed went up straight away! Thank you very much indeed.

It might be that the physical act of moving the socket away from the wall to get at the bell wire and jiggling it all around cleared a dodgy connection on pins 2 or 5 - are they IDC (push in) or screw terminals? You could always put the bell wire back and see what happens!

Interestingly, trying to solve a REIN problem here, removing the bell wire lost my connection as one of the other wires had come adrift in the process but was still apparently in the connector...

Post deleted by Sadoldman

In reply to a post by StorkyIV:

Well I am amazed & would never have thought it - I have removed the bell wire and download speed went up straight away! Thank you very much indeed.

Sync speed has not increased, but download is near matching sync - so is good enough!
What would have caused the bell wire to suddenly interfere?

Once again - thank you!

The cause of your problem looks like a doggy connection in the NTE5 master socket, but you should remove the bell wire terminal 3 it can cause interference to your broadband connection.

http://www.telephonesuk.co.uk/wiring_info.htm

http://www.wppltd.demon.co.uk/WPP/Wiring/UK_telephon...

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Surely Orange use WBC, therefore any increase in sync rate, gained by bellwire removal, will not produce an instant increase in throughput speed, due to the IP profile system ?

The new DLM running on WBC now adjusts instantly on connection to approximately 88.2% of sync.

Orange is not over subscribed; you are living in the days of freeserve when they had 2 million customers. Orange only has about 713,000 UK broadband customers.

Orange prices are unbeatable, I have with them, line rental, free evening and weekend landline calls, 20 meg unlimited Broadband and Orange mobile phone contract, all for £25.50 per month.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeserve

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2012/05/orange-...

https://broadband.orange.co.uk/home

http://shop.orange.co.uk/mobile-phones/price-plans/p...

Edited by deleted (Sun 15-Jul-12 13:38:35)

Number of customers is irrelevant. It's all about capacity.

In reply to a post by E7er:

Orange prices are unbeatable, I have with them, line rental, free evening and weekend landline calls, 20 meg unlimited Broadband and Orange mobile phone contract, all for £25.50 per month.

Problem is they charge an extra £10 if one is not in their network area, however this £10 surcharge may be dropped at some unspecified point in the future according to Orange sales...

I agree though that the Orange 21CN WBC deal is very good if the exchange is in their network area

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

Number of customers is irrelevant. It's all about capacity.

Well, there is no slow down on my Orange broadband connection daytime or evenings, anyhow BT run the Orange broadband network now.

http://www.microscope.co.uk/news/2240154240/Orange-c...

http://www.v3.co.uk/v3-uk/news/1989553/orange-moves-...

In reply to a post by E7er:

BT run the Orange broadband network now.

But remember Orange pay for a certain capacity from BT.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Problem is they charge an extra £10 if one is not in their network area

Which is totally unjustifiable as they no longer have a network . It's all BT Wholesale itself.

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 15-Jul-12 20:58:39)

There could be some justification in charging extra in the areas where they previously did not have LLU. Just cuz they entered some commercial arrangement with BT doesn't mean they have to lose revenue, nor charging new custs less than old custs (tho' this often happens anyway in normal course of business).

Logical .

Dubious ethics.

"5.Why does Orange broadband cost more if I live outside of your network area?
Like all of the major providers, we have to pass on the costs we pay BT to offer broadband outside our network area. But we�re confident that our unlimited plans mean that we�re still offering great value." From the orange shop FAQ web page - seems sort of ethical even though the surcharge sum of £10 doesn't appear to be mentioned anywhere on the web page.

Plusnet don't impose the surcharge on Market 2 exchanges but perhaps they are not one of the "major providers". Maybe Orange consider BT and Plusnet to be essentially the same provider though...

That's an unchanged FAQ from when they had their own LLU network. The costs of providing a service over BT Wholesale outside that network justified a higher price.

They no longer have an LLU network. In fact they no longer have any network at all. The service is completely outsourced to BT Wholesale, on some unknown commercial deal. Most, if not all, Orange LLU customers have been moved from LLU exchange kit to BT Wholesale kit.

I don't know of any other ISP using this BT WHolesale White Label service, other than the Post Office. (I've a niggly feeling theirs has also gone elsewhere but I could be completely wrong about that). Vodafone did, but should by now have completed the handover of all their customers to Plusnet.

It's possible that the contract with BTW has a higher cost for ex-BT Wholesale connections, but that cannot be ethically justified. Only on a revenue protection basis as brought up (validly) by XRaySpeX.

The question of Market 1,2 and 3 pricing is a completely separate issue. That's not a "surcharge" as such. It is a pricing structure imposed by OfCom on what BT Wholesale have to charge ISPs using their service to connect customers to the ISP's network.

Plusnet certainly are a major provider, possibly now fourth, behind BT Retail, Sky and TalkTalk. The last figures I know of had them poised to overtake both Orange (as was) and O2/Be.

Maybe Orange consider BT and Plusnet to be essentially the same provider though.

I'm in the dark as to what you mean there .
_{Edit - Typo.}

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 15-Jul-12 23:08:54)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Maybe Orange consider BT and Plusnet to be essentially the same provider though.

I'm in the dark as to what you mean there .


Since Orange simplified BTW as BT I've simplified Plusnet as being owned by BT

I thought we were having a serious discussion.

It's Orange's statement: "Like all of the major providers, we have to pass on the costs we pay BT to offer broadband outside our network area," that was confirmed by a member of their sales team as £10 when I called, which I find bewildering.

Previously Plusnet certainly had a pricing structure that mentioned low cost areas and that was changed to include Market 2 exchanges. Orange didn't have a LLU presence at a particular Market 2 exchange yet they don't seem to classify it as in a low cost area, a high cost Market 1 area nor is it in their network area.

Guess be are talking about the differences between a low cost area and a network area in the case of a Market 2 exchange which, for me, is totally confusing

The only well-known ISP that implements different customer pricing depending on exchange Market Classification is Plusnet. Note that for LLU ISPs, or at least their LLU products. Market Classification is irrelevant. It doesn't affect those in the slightest.

It's Orange's statement: "Like all of the major providers, we have to pass on the costs we pay BT to offer broadband outside our network area," that was confirmed by a member of their sales team as £10 when I called, which I find bewildering.

In the middle of replying I think I realised what is confusing you.

Let's forget LLU.

Non LLU ISPs get charged less in M3 that in M1. I'm not sure in M2, off the top of my head. I'd have to search around, and I'm ready for sleep .

Plusnet charge £6.50 more in M1 than the do in M2 and M2. You are correct in thinking that they used to charge that extra in M2 as well. I seem to remember it was a lower premium, but maybe it was £6.50. Again, it's sleep time.

So the difference between Orange and PN is that wherever Orange did not have LLU, which means all M1 and some M2, they charge a £10 premium. PN only charge a premium in M1, and it is £6.50.

So far as I know all other ISPs charge a uniform price independent of market classification. One hopes that the price is somewhere between the two prices they would charge if they did do differential pricing.

The Orange FAQ should simply be changed to define the area correctly. The unfortunate sales person has to adhere to the company line, probably not even knowing it isn't any longer correctly worded. They don't have a network, so they can't have a network area. They aren't even technically an ISP. They are a Virtual ISP just like UKFSN, just rather a lot bigger.

Phew . Not easy to work out when nodding off.

Nice one Bob,

Hope you slept well

A virtual ISP charging ten quid extra per month to anybody outside a non-existent network area (85% of UK homes are apparently in this non-existent network area) sounds like a sweet deal for Orange LOL! The whole thing is an illusion except for that hard earned, actual, additional tenner forked out each month by an unfortunate minority!

In reply to a post by 4M2:

that was confirmed by a member of their sales team as £10 when I called, which I find bewildering

You don't need to take his word for it. It's confirmed on their Sales Webpage:

In reference to broadband.orange.co.uk/home:

Prices quoted are for customers on Orange pay monthly and pay as you go mobile plans living in an Orange Broadband network area, which covers 85% of all UK homes. For non-Orange customers, an additional £5 a month will be charged. Orange customers living in non-Orange Broadband network areas will be charged an additional £10 a month. Non-Orange customers living in a non-Orange Broadband network area will be charged an additional £15 a month.

The only thing missing is a definition of "Orange Broadband network area" .

The only thing missing is a definition of "Orange Broadband network area" .

That's why I called sales, several weeks ago, in order to establish whether my Market 2 exchange is in their network area wrongly thinking it might be similar to PN's low cost area.

Sales give me the impression that like all major providers they pass on the costs they to pay BTw to provide broadband outside of "network areas" and that additional sum of £10 would be charged by all ISP's. This may indeed be true with TalkTalk who may still be charging an additional £10 or more for broadband from an exchange where they don't have a LLU presence?

Edit: just checked the TT site which states: "Our broadband packages are subject to availability in your area and this covers 85% of UK households. If your home cannot be connected to the broadband service supplied with this package, you may still be able to get an alternative broadband service from TalkTalk at £15.32 extra per month."

Guess Orange charging £10 ain't so bad

Edited by 4M2 (Mon 16-Jul-12 15:33:49)

That's no definition:

• All of Orange BB is now provided by BTw for which they pay. On that basis all Orange BB is outside of "network areas" and so all customers should be charged an additional sum of £10. But we know that's not the case.
• You can't define "network area" in terms of itself

No, like Roberto, I think who you were talking to was thinking they still had LLU. You notice the diff between his statement and the webpage I previously referenced is that the latter makes no mention of paying BT; it is just a statement of price conditions. It just lacks a definition of "Orange Broadband network area".

Orange has never had a pricing structure based on Market Classification and I'm pretty sure it still doesn't. The £10 "surcharge" and its "non-network area" must arise out of their undisclosed commercial deal with BTw.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

"Our broadband packages are subject to availability in your area and this covers 85% of UK households.

Interesting that 85% is the same as Orange's.

It can't refer to WBC cuz TT don't provide WBC.

More likely that TT's LLU coverage is about the same as Orange's as was. Therefore hinting that Orange are sticking to their old LLU/non-LLU areas.

I can understand Orange customers who were previously LLU'ed not having to pay the additional £10 when Orange changed to WBC, but potential new customers having to try and establish whether their exchange was previously included in that former network area seems rather odd.

This being especially pertinent if one is considering a change of ISP when an exchange has been upgraded to 21CN WBC. For example: Plusnet, who have a lower price for Market 2 exchanges, do seem to be currently more attractive if one wished to switch to 21CN WBC and that exchange didn�t have an Orange LLU presence previously...

Pah, Orange never had anywhere near the coverage of TalkTalk, Orange was smaller than the current O2 network.

TalkTalk is above 85% if their investor reports are correct, and getting them wrong is a serious thing.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

potential new customers having to try and establish whether their exchange was previously included in that former network area seems rather odd.

All they need do is put their phone # into the Availability Checker and it give them their price.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Pah, Orange never had anywhere near the coverage of TalkTalk, Orange was smaller than the current O2 network.

Bah! Are you confusing coverage with customer base?

So you are saying the 85% that they both quote is just a coincidence? TT LLU = WBC coverages?

Don't believe I am.

TalkTalk has the largest number of LLU exchanges, and that footprint exceeds the footprint of WBC in terms of households passed and exchanges offering the service. Customers signed up may be a different matter.

Orange stopped its LLU roll-out a long time ago, and never got to the coverage levels of either TalkTalk LLU or WBC.

I still see this though: "...Orange Broadband network area, which covers 85% of all UK homes..." here https://broadband.orange.co.uk/home - is that misleading?

Maybe that includes mobile phone coverage also?

Edited by 4M2 (Mon 16-Jul-12 19:32:38)

That's exactly what I am talking about and had quoted earlier in this thread.

Yes you quoted it in full - I just quoted a part which suggests 85% of homes are in the broadband network area

Edited by 4M2 (Mon 16-Jul-12 19:45:19)

Which is roughly about the size of the BT Wholesale WBC network

A connection on WBC (irrespective of M1, M2, M3) is cheaper to run.

Ahhhh.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

In reply to a post by E7er:

Orange prices are unbeatable, I have with them, line rental, free evening and weekend landline calls, 20 meg unlimited Broadband and Orange mobile phone contract, all for £25.50 per month.

Problem is they charge an extra £10 if one is not in their network area, however this £10 surcharge may be dropped at some unspecified point in the future according to Orange sales...

I agree though that the Orange 21CN WBC deal is very good if the exchange is in their network area

When Orange state "their network area" they refer to BT market 3 exchange area.

Due to competition regulation rules Ofcom impose the £10 charge on BT for market 1 and market 2 exchange areas, BT make the charge to Orange, Orange pass the charge on to the customer. Only if you live in market 3 exchange areas will you not be charged the £10.

http://blog.broadbandpolicy.co.uk/2011/02/ofcom-upda...

Offer applicable for LLU to WBC line in Market 3 only https://www.btwholesale.com/pages/static/Promotion_1...

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange_search

But my exchange is M2 recently upgraded to 21CN WBC and Orange wanted to charge me an extra £10 because I live in one of those 15% of homes (?) outside of their so called network area...maybe Orange sales had not been updated on the status of my exchange and still believed it to be 20CN?

There is no law limiting where and when a provider can decide to surcharge someone.

If a provider wants to surcharge and you can get it cheaper elsewhere go elsewhere.

The updating of all this information does take time within companies, and is why the flat price model is simpler.

In reply to a post by E7er:

When Orange state "their network area" they refer to BT market 3 exchange area.

That's interesting

In reply to a post by 4M2:

But my exchange is M2 recently upgraded to 21CN WBC and Orange wanted to charge me an extra £10 because I live in one of those 15% of homes (?) outside of their so called network area...maybe Orange sales had not been updated on the status of my exchange and still believed it to be 20CN?

Market Classification is decided and published by OfCom from time to time. It does not change automatically when the exchange LLU profile changes.

It's nothing to do with whether WBC is enabled or not.

The latest list I'm aware of is this one, from December 2010.

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 17-Jul-12 14:33:54)

In reply to a post by E7er:

When Orange state "their network area" they refer to BT market 3 exchange area.

How do you know?

Those articles you link make no reference to it. As MrSaffron said they can charge what they like, regardless of who charges them what.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Market Classification is decided and published by OfCom from time to time. It does not change automatically when the exchange LLU profile changes.

It's nothing to do with whether WBC is enabled or not.

The latest list I'm aware of is this one, from December 2010.

That's a really interesting document - however are there any lists of exchanges that were previously LLU'ed by Orange and are now presumably in their "network area"? If their available LLU coverage was accessible by 85% of UK homes then that might explain how 85% of homes are now in their broadband network area - or am I reading this completely wrongly?

In reply to a post by 4M2:

... are there any lists of exchanges that were previously LLU'ed by Orange

Not that I know of. There would have been one on this samknows page. Maybe if you contact them they can give you a list of them before deletion.

If their available LLU coverage was accessible by 85% of UK homes then that might explain how 85% of homes are now in their broadband network area - or am I reading this completely wrongly?

That seems to be the emerging consensus. Orange seem not to have published how their area is determined.

"Please bear in mind that new providers come and go all the time, and the broadband market is currently quite volatile..." that quote from samknows probably sums the situation up quite well

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/4215-orange-hand-...

"Currently, Orange's LLU network only reaches around 65% of the population, and they hold in total approximately 840,000 broadband customers. "

As I've said all along, coverage below current O2 levels.

If Orange are piggy backing on BT's national network then perhaps all 21CN WBC enabled exchanges will be in their "network area" at some point in the future then?

For sure another TBB forum member is getting a very good adsl2+ Orange broadband service from the same out of network area exchange as me but personally I wouldn't want to pay £10 more than the "network area" price as things currently stand.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

TalkTalk has the largest number of LLU exchanges, and that footprint exceeds the footprint of WBC in terms of households passed and exchanges offering the service. Customers signed up may be a different matter.

e.g. Forres in north east scotland, no WBC, no 21CN, but TalkTalk LLU !!

(hee, it seems since I last checked, Sky and WBC have arrived; what a little competition does.....)

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/NSFRS