Changing spur/star wiring to NTE5.

Evening all,

I have a friend with a pretty poor connection. He has had a very intermittent connection since moving into the place a few years back but thought it was due to his location out in the country side.

We have determined that he doesn't have a master socket as such, The line comes in on a drop wire through the roof to a box which then has two house extensions connected straight to that. I assume this is star wiring.

I told him about removing the 'usually' orange wire and sent links to guides. Being a bit ambitious he snipped the orange wire in the loft which he said knocked out his phone.

Obviously he snipped the incoming line from the drop wire.

He temporarily has that snip twisted together to maintain a connection. Now this needs sorted and hopefully sort out his net at the same time.

I believe one of the extensions goes to a socket in his living room and another to the kitchen.
Would it just be a case of reconnect the incoming line to the socket in the living room and make that a master socket then connect the kitchen one to the new master socket? Job done?

I see two possibilities. Obviously for both that snipped wire needs a proper join putting in.

The way you suggest will work fine as long as he is happy to run a CW1308 grade twisted pair wire (proper telephone cabling) between the kitchen and living room. It needs to be from a reputable supplier from such as RS Components (who do sell on Amazon) as there are plenty of cheapo low quality or non-twisted flat imitations than claim to be CW1308.

It is important to use one of the twisted pairs between the two sockets. For example blue or blue/white with white/blue. Blue or blue/white with anything orange or green or whatever would be using a "split pair" and cause disastrous interference.

What I might do would be replace the box in the roof, assuming it is inside not on the eaves outside, with an NTE5 master fitted with an NTE5B faceplate instead of an NTE5A. (The NTE5B is a blank plate with no socket but with the IDC connectors on the back). Both the sockets could then be run from the IDC connectors on the back of the NTE5B. That's as long as it isn't already an NTE5/NTE5B and we are up the wrong tree as to what the problem is. Note that the same applies to your method, if it is an NTE5/5B.

One of the two current sockets is probably an LJ 2/1A (master) and the other an LJ 2/3A (extension), see this page. The difference being the cylindrical capacitor at the top. The LJ 2/1A should be replaced with an LJ 2/3A in my method. In your method it is the LJ 2/1A that should be wired from the loft.

In all cases he may choose to fit filtered faceplates for neatness, such as the ADSL Nation XTE-2005 for the NTE5 if he does it the way you suggest, and the XTF-68/85 for extensions. (The 68 and 85 are the sizes of the possible backboxes). Clarity and Solwise are also recommended suppliers of equivalent kit.

I expect you know an IDC/Krone tool is a good idea for inserting the wires.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 16-Jul-14 19:26:41)

Is there any noise on the line when listening to the quiet line test? If there is call out an engineer, he'll fault the circuit and install an NTE 5.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I see two possibilities. Obviously for both that snipped wire needs a proper join putting in.

The way you suggest will work fine as long as he is happy to run a CW1308 grade twisted pair wire (proper telephone cabling) between the kitchen and living room. It needs to be from a reputable supplier from such as RS Components (who do sell on Amazon) as there are plenty of cheapo low quality or non-twisted flat imitations than claim to be CW1308.

It is important to use one of the twisted pairs between the two sockets. For example blue or blue/white with white/blue. Blue or blue/white with anything orange or green or whatever would be using a "split pair" and cause disastrous interference.

What I might do would be replace the box in the roof, assuming it is inside not on the eaves outside, with an NTE5 master fitted with an NTE5B faceplate instead of an NTE5A. (The NTE5B is a blank plate with no socket but with the IDC connectors on the back). Both the sockets could then be run from the IDC connectors on the back of the NTE5B. That's as long as it isn't already an NTE5/NTE5B and we are up the wrong tree as to what the problem is. Note that the same applies to your method, if it is an NTE5/5B.

One of the two current sockets is probably an LJ 2/1A (master) and the other an LJ 2/3A (extension), see this page. The difference being the cylindrical capacitor at the top. The LJ 2/1A should be replaced with an LJ 2/3A in my method. In your method it is the LJ 2/1A that should be wired from the loft.

In all cases he may choose to fit filtered faceplates for neatness, such as the ADSL Nation XTE-2005 for the NTE5 if he does it the way you suggest, and the XTF-68/85 for extensions. (The 68 and 85 are the sizes of the possible backboxes). Clarity and Solwise are also recommended suppliers of equivalent kit.

I expect you know an IDC/Krone tool is a good idea for inserting the wires.

Robero,

Many thanks for the detailed explanation!

This is what we have in the loft (Not outside or anything) at present.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/PVuHnxL.jpg[/IMG]

So option one is to run a new CW1308 cable between the living room and kitchen and connect to the drop wire with a new terminating box? Would we have to pull a cable for the living room to the drop cable too? Make the item in the living an NTE5A master socket?


Option 2:

Fit an NTE5B socket in the loft and connect both existing extensions into the IDC points on the back of it? Would we be better to run the CW1308 with this option also?

I'm guessing doing the easiest option would be the preference.


Option 1 parts:

CW1308 cable
Connection box
NTE5A for living room

Option 2 parts:

NTE5B box for the loft
2 off LJ 2/3A for living room and kitchen

I already have a good quality IDC tool so that is sorted.

Looks like there used to be two separate lines. The incoming dropwire pair one - orange and white is connected to pair one of one six wire.

Pair two of the dropwire - green and black is connected to pair one of another six wire

In reply to a post by partial:

Looks like there used to be two separate lines. The incoming dropwire pair one - orange and white is connected to pair one of one six wire.

Pair two of the dropwire - green and black is connected to pair one of another six wire

That is what I can make out. We found another similar box in his hall which runs up to the loft also but it is now unused so possibly that is the case.

I guess I'll need to go round with a multimeter and buzz the cables out (Disconnected of course)

So if one line is unused that means we only have one cable feeding down into the room which makes it easier. So NTE5B JB in the loft and then just normal secondary sockets there after then?

Difficult to say as you have only posted a picture of a joint in the loft and no evidence of star wiring.

In reply to a post by partial:

Difficult to say as you have only posted a picture of a joint in the loft and no evidence of star wiring.

I was just going by what he believed it was. I guess without a clearer picture we can't tell from that. To me it does look like one extension goes to one pair from the drop line and the other goes to the live pair of the drop wire.

I'll need to go out with my multimeter to confirm I think. So would star wiring be if both extensions fed back to the live cores and connected together there? That's what I have in my head.

I think I'll go down the route of the NTE5B socket into the loft with connecting the extension socket into that.

There is no extension in the picture you have posted, just two separate lines jointed, one that is likely to be unused.

Fitting an NTE at this point will make no difference to anything other than spending an hour wasting your time and listening to someone moaning about their broadband.

If you want to eliminate star wiring, you need to find the point where the star occurs.

Edited by deleted (Wed 16-Jul-14 22:28:12)

In reply to a post by partial:

There is no extension in the picture you have posted, just two separate lines jointed. Fitting an NTE at this point will make no difference to anything other than spending an hour wasting your time and listening to someone moaning about their broadband. .

But we need to join the snipped cable into something, This is why I'm going to go that route. At least if it connected properly and not twisted together then that is half the battle!!

We can then figure out the issue from there on out with going through the sockets in the living room and kitchen.

Maybe he got confused with the description and presumed it was the star wiring. I haven't seen it in person. Just arming myself with info before travelling to his.

Edited by deleted (Wed 16-Jul-14 22:31:27)

In which case just use a joint box or jelly crimps

Fitting an NTE at that point will do nothing.

Post pictures of the other terminations and someone will advise.

My advice at the moment is not to have too hot a cup of tea in your hand that you can't split town quick when the NTE doesn't do anything.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

In which case just use a joint box or jelly crimps

Ok then, So I'll stick a joint box in the loft and worth fitting a new NTE5 socket into the living room? Then leave the secondary plate in the kitchen?

He asked about getting a new type socket fitted for using a test socket in the future, Hence why I want to fit one.

Something like this for the loft?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/BT80A-Single-Line-Telephone-...

Edited by deleted (Wed 16-Jul-14 22:39:33)

Put the joint back how you found it and post pics of the wiring in the live sockets in the house.

Edited by deleted (Wed 16-Jul-14 22:40:32)

In reply to a post by partial:

Put the joint back how you found it and post pics of the wiring in the live sockets in the house.

Aye so bodge it back together with some chocolate block? Sounds good!

And photos of the insides of the two extensions please , saying which is where.

It does sound from the later posts that there is more to it then originally thought. I didn't spot the query about what is actually in that junction box. Just that one pair was correctly coloured.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

And photos of the insides of the two extensions please , saying which is where.

It does sound from the later posts that there is more to it then originally thought. I didn't spot the query about what is actually in that junction box. Just that one pair was correctly coloured.

I'll be sure to post a picture once we get the loft and the snip sorted out. I'll bell out the wires in the extensions when I'm there to figure out exactly which wires go where.

Edit to add: Can anyone link me some good quality twisted pair that I can show my mate to see if he wants to upgrade the extension cable while we are at it?

Sorry for all the confusion but I'm just relaying info from my friend and quite confused myself after speaking to him so a visit will be on the cards this weekend I think.

Edited by deleted (Wed 16-Jul-14 23:06:23)

CW1308 is the normal spec for telephone wiring, but if looking at extension wiring then CAT5 ethernet cable will have a better noise rejection but higher price

Personally I wouldn't take that job on for somebody - better to get OR to fit a NTE5 wired to the "live" orange and white drop wire pair in the loft with the extension terminated on a filtered faceplate. Then you could install CAT5 from the A&B terminals on the filtered faceplate to a dedicated ADSL socket for the router in the required location (or even a NTE5 installed in the required location by the engineer using CW1308 from the current junction box and then later you could sort out the extension(s) from that NTE5.)

Alternatively you could fit your own NTE5 adjacent to one of the phone sockets in order to get a "test socket", e.g. https://www.claritybroadband.co.uk/telecoms/nte5.htm , but that might require considerable rewiring using existing cables that may be of questionable quality.

Good luck.

Edited by 4M2 (Thu 17-Jul-14 02:34:56)

Just to agree with Partial, the photo you link to would imply two separate lines coming in on the dropwire at some point.

Could it be that the two sockets after are just linked in series, just that one is an LJU rather than an NTE ?

It may well be that as per your original suggestion, it's just a long line, and fitting a modern NTE with a faceplate filter will help. You really need to sort Edward Scissorhands work in the loft, if not a problem now, it will be soon enough.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Just to agree with Partial, the photo you link to would imply two separate lines coming in on the dropwire at some point.

Could it be that the two sockets after are just linked in series, just that one is an LJU rather than an NTE ?

It may well be that as per your original suggestion, it's just a long line, and fitting a modern NTE with a faceplate filter will help. You really need to sort Edward Scissorhands work in the loft, if not a problem now, it will be soon enough.

Haha! Yeah I think the first port of call is to ensure we have the best termination possible for the connection in the loft then we can go from there back sorting as we go.

I've sent him a link to see if he wants to upgrade to some newer wire. I haven't yet seen the connecting of the extensions so for all I know it could be mismatched pairs as per the first page, Who knows. I won't know until I go over there.

These are the stats from a thread I created at the start of the week.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/hdyD7Qz.png[/IMG]

Oh my word, that downstream sync rate for 41db attenuation sucks !

Is there any way you can get the router in sync on the end of the incoming pair in the loft ? If there is huge increase in sync rate at that point, then you'll know that it's the internal stuff thats to blame.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Oh my word, that downstream sync rate for 41db attenuation sucks !

Is there any way you can get the router in sync on the end of the incoming pair in the loft ? If there is huge increase in sync rate at that point, then you'll know that it's the internal stuff thats to blame.

You are telling me!! That is why I am trying to advise as best as I can. He said he has never seen anything over 2mb on the line before.

I'll connect directly to the socket going to the outgoing linewith all extensions disconnected and see if we get any improvement. He is on Orange though so not sure if he would need to wait on BT's DLM to sort out the line. I'm guessing so? No LLU whatsoever on his exchange.

Worrying about DLM would come later, you just need to see a big increase in downstream sync rate on the router stats for starters.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Worrying about DLM would come later, you just need to see a big increase in downstream sync rate on the router stats for starters.

Ok thanks. I just presumed that the current sync rate would remain until DLM allowed an increase, I didn't realise that it would give a sudden increase to start with. I was always on LLU when I had ADSL2+

I guess it *might* be hard capped, but I suspect not.

It's a shame that router doesn't show a stat for theoretical max, that way you can see roughly what might be gained. I guess you've tried a different router on the line too ?

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

I guess it *might* be hard capped, but I suspect not.

It's a shame that router doesn't show a stat for theoretical max, that way you can see roughly what might be gained. I guess you've tried a different router on the line too ?

I have seen many threads in the Orange section about lines being capped which he is aware of but with something as poor as that, I suspected wiring issues.

I haven't had a chance to try any other routers but can easily take some over. It was only a discussion we had last weekend when we were at a BBQ. I have a BE box, a Netgear DG834GT and several filters lying around including ADSL nation faceplates.

Well good luck, and keep us posted.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Well good luck, and keep us posted.

I most certainly will. Thanks everyone for your help so far.

I'd go for the Netgear 834GT. Good stats info via telnet.

I don't think it's capped. Also look out for Sky boxes. Plus missing or failed filters.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I'd go for the Netgear 834GT. Good stats info via telnet.

I don't think it's capped. Also look out for Sky boxes. Plus missing or failed filters.

Roger that, I'll take a bag of goodies with me. First point of call is to test it on the main line alone without extensions or whatever. Hopefully I can report back over the next few days.

In reply to a post by michty_me:

We have determined that he doesn't have a master socket as such, The line comes in on a drop wire through the roof to a box which then has two house extensions connected straight to that. I assume this is star wiring.

My house was wired like that when a fault developed on one of the legs. I got the man from BT to fit a master socket in the roof to minimize cable length and any interference. My router now lives there connected via a filtered face plate.

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

In reply to a post by michty_me:

We have determined that he doesn't have a master socket as such, The line comes in on a drop wire through the roof to a box which then has two house extensions connected straight to that. I assume this is star wiring.

My house was wired like that when a fault developed on one of the legs. I got the man from BT to fit a master socket in the roof to minimize cable length and any interference. My router now lives there connected via a filtered face plate.

It does concern me that other posters in this thread are suggesting that the OP should work directly from the drop wire, in his friend's property, rather than have a proper demarcation point (NTE5) fitted by an OR engineer before the OP works on the internal wiring.

I'm not suggesting it. Just refraining from trying to stop him as I believe he would continue anyway .

I agree with you neither of them should be replacing the master socket. Once it is found.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I'm not suggesting it. Just refraining from trying to stop him as I believe he would continue anyway .

I agree with you neither of them should be replacing the master socket. Once it is found.

If getting an OR engineer is definitely out of the question then if I was the OP then I would fit my own NTE5 adjacent to the line box that takes the feed (orange and white drop wire pair to blue/white and white blue/pair?) from the junction box in the loft as described here https://www.claritybroadband.co.uk/telecoms/nte5.htm - this would of course rely on the integrity and quality of the current internal wiring

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

My house was wired like that when a fault developed on one of the legs. I got the man from BT to fit a master socket in the roof to minimize cable length and any interference. My router now lives there connected via a filtered face plate.

I'll get a better idea from when I see it. Sounds like it is similar to what you had.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

If getting an OR engineer is definitely out of the question then if I was the OP then I would fit my own NTE5 adjacent to the line box that takes the feed (orange and white drop wire pair to blue/white and white blue/pair?) from the junction box in the loft as described here https://www.claritybroadband.co.uk/telecoms/nte5.htm - this would of course rely on the integrity and quality of the current internal wiring

That is exactly what we are doing. We think that the wire connected in the current JB in the loft leads directly to the living room and that is where we were going to fit the NTE5 box.

...and the less said about the repaired orange drop wire all the better

In reply to a post by 4M2:

...and the less said about the repaired orange drop wire all the better

Ha, Indeed. Once that is sorted, The remainder in the left will be left from now on.

The blue/white and white/blue pair in the photo look OK - best of luck!

In reply to a post by 4M2:

The blue/white and white/blue pair in the photo look OK - best of luck!

We are still waiting for the parts he ordered when I started this thread so no further ahead in terms of doing any work or me going round for a look.

Strangely enough his stats have changed from

Down speed: 345kbps, Noise Margin: 10.3dB, Line Attn: 41.5dB
Up Speed: 595kbps, Noise Margin: 14.2dB, Line Attn: 24.4dB

to the following

Down speed: 6482kbps, Noise Margin: 14.4dB, Line Attn: 43.5dB
Up Speed: 1076kbps, Noise Margin: 5.7dB, Line Attn: 23.1dB

He said his internet seems even more unusable now with these stats and actually has to use edge/3G network on his phone as his broadband connection wouldn't even let him Whatsapp the screenshot over to me.

Where did he order them from?

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Where did he order them from?

Clarity I believe. I believe they had an issue with emails and being on holiday or something. Apparently it should be here this week...

In reply to a post by michty_me:

Strangely enough his stats have changed from

Down speed: 345kbps, Noise Margin: 10.3dB, Line Attn: 41.5dB
Up Speed: 595kbps, Noise Margin: 14.2dB, Line Attn: 24.4dB

to the following

Down speed: 6482kbps, Noise Margin: 14.4dB, Line Attn: 43.5dB
Up Speed: 1076kbps, Noise Margin: 5.7dB, Line Attn: 23.1dB

He said his internet seems even more unusable now with these stats and actually has to use edge/3G network on his phone as his broadband connection wouldn't even let him Whatsapp the screenshot over to me.

First set of stats were G992.3 (ADSL2) now it looks as though the connection has possibly resync'd on G.992.5 (ADSL2+)

I get that sometimes if there is noise affecting the line, the router drops the ADSL2+ connection, the router re-syncs on ADSL2 then later, when the noise source has gone, I manually resync the connection back to ADSL2+. It's a rare event on my line but for someone who suffers frequent noise and high error rates it could happen far more often and hence appear as a very unstable line.

I bet yours doesn't jump from 6.5 Mag ADSL2+ to 0.3 Meg ADSL2.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

I bet yours doesn't jump from 6.5 Mag ADSL2+ to 0.3 Meg ADSL2.

Yes I agree that 0.3 Meg figure does seem exceptionally low. If I recall correctly: I go from a downstream attenuation of 37dB to 34dB and from ~12500Kbps to ~10500Kbps on the downstream sync, but those events are rare and not prolonged if that is perhaps significant?

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Yes I agree that 0.3 Meg figure does seem exceptionally low.

Pretty sure that's cuz EE had him on a low(est) banded profile, as is their wont, and have now released it.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Yes I agree that 0.3 Meg figure does seem exceptionally low.

Pretty sure that's cuz EE had him on a low(est) banded profile, as is their wont, and have now released it.

It would be interesting to see if the SNRM is fluctuating significantly and the ADSL dropping regularly since the OP says the "internet seems even more unusable now" - guess EE might turn the speed down again if it's really unstable?

Just discovered that the exchange is outside EE's Network Area, where they throttle heavily. So they don't need to play around with connection parameters.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Just discovered that the exchange is outside EE's Network Area, where they throttle heavily. So they don't need to play around with connection parameters.

Oh crickey: throughput and possible home wiring issues!

In reply to a post by 4M2:

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Just discovered that the exchange is outside EE's Network Area, where they throttle heavily. So they don't need to play around with connection parameters.

Oh crickey: throughput and possible home wiring issues!

So who could I recommend to him to move to if price is a factor? Nothing is available at the exchange.
I was thinking Plusnet?

In reply to a post by michty_me:

So who could I recommend to him to move to if price is a factor? Nothing is available at the exchange.
I was thinking Plusnet?

If "nothing is available at the exchange" that possibly means that it is Market 1 in which case Plusnet wouldn't really represent any great advantage over other ISP's price wise. If the exchange is Market 2 or 3 then certainly Plusnet would be a good choice since it would be in a "low cost area".

In reply to a post by 4M2:

In reply to a post by michty_me:

So who could I recommend to him to move to if price is a factor? Nothing is available at the exchange.
I was thinking Plusnet?

If "nothing is available at the exchange" that possibly means that it is Market 1 in which case Plusnet wouldn't really represent any great advantage over other ISP's price wise. If the exchange is Market 2 or 3 then certainly Plusnet would be a good choice since it would be in a "low cost area".

I just checked and it appears it is a Market 1 exchange.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Yes I agree that 0.3 Meg figure does seem exceptionally low.

Pretty sure that's cuz EE had him on a low(est) banded profile, as is their wont, and have now released it.

We pulled in new Cat5e cable to the main box and to the extension and hooked up as per correct way. When we pulled out both original wires, They had been nibbled by something. about half a foot on both sets of runs.

So now all wiring is sorted (hopefully), His speeds are still low, Which I guess is down to orange?
On a plus, He can now stream videos and access webpages at normal speed again thankfully. It's a step in the right direction anyway.

In reply to a post by michty_me:

When we pulled out both original wires, They had been nibbled by something. about half a foot on both sets of runs.

That was quite a successful job then, hopefully the "nibblers" wont have CAT5 on their menu

In reply to a post by 4M2:

In reply to a post by michty_me:

When we pulled out both original wires, They had been nibbled by something. about half a foot on both sets of runs.

That was quite a successful job then, hopefully the "nibblers" wont have CAT5 on their menu

Yeah we were please. His missus said they were moving.