help needed for a sick friend

Hi guys need some help , a friend of mine suffers with seizure due to post traumatic stress disorder they can happen anytime of the day and night , he has a alarm whats wired to his phone filtered faceplate BUT the problem lies with sky broadband he has drop outs 6 or 7 times aweek what sets off the alarm he has 30 seconds to cancel or RAPID responce and a paramedic is sent out , so far this had happened 5 times in the last month as hes been in the loo or sleeping each time it would cost them £450 . even dropped out and alarm went off last week when openreach were there doing line checks and changing filter faceplates yet again ,

sky say there is no problems with the phone line or broadband , SO im thinking can it be the sky hub what not working as it should ? ive dont some googling and alot say when they have had drop outs and changed the hub all was fine ...

came off the fone with sky and so they say they are sending a new hub to try ..

does anyone have anymore ideas ? thanks

The alarm does it have a microfilter if connected to the phone line?

If penalties are costly a second phone line gor JUST the alarm might be a more stable option

hi MrSaffron the phone socket in the bedroom were the alarm is a faceplate with built in filter
they have tryed 3 or 4 also normal filters .

it only happens when sky broadband drops out . lucky for my mate he dont have to pay the call out of the medics and rapid respone but that isnt the point , theres a problem somewere and sky just dont want to help him even openreach are baffled.

myself i think its 1 of 2 things the hardware ie the sky hub or the sky broadband conection .
if the new hub still dont work when its here this week they are leaving sky .

In reply to a post by hotdogz:

it only happens when sky broadband drops out . lucky for my mate he dont have to pay the call out of the medics and rapid respone but that isnt the point , theres a problem somewere and sky just dont want to help him even openreach are baffled.

If Openreach have investigated then Sky must have asked them to.

The broadband likely drops for the same reason that the phone does, whatever the reason may be.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by hotdogz:

it only happens when sky broadband drops out . lucky for my mate he dont have to pay the call out of the medics and rapid respone but that isnt the point , theres a problem somewere and sky just dont want to help him even openreach are baffled.

If Openreach have investigated then Sky must have asked them to.

The broadband likely drops for the same reason that the phone does, whatever the reason may be.

the phone line is fine . no noise or buzzing . its just that sky broadband drops out and that is what sets of his alarm and the alarm calls help

Loss of broadban signal triggering another device is odd particularly if the phone is still working fine at that point

It is possible the line is within spec but just bad enough to cause issues with the alarm, one assumes it is a disller alarm that call a number when triggered

Loss of broadband signal triggering another device is odd particularly if the phone is still working fine at that point

Very odd indeed, if the alarm doesn't connect to the broadband at all. Could it be the alarm itself that is a problem ?

Usually with alarms it is them not working rather than false triggers so may be circuits that din't cope well with a modem in sync phase. Double microfilters might help

Double microfilters might help

Worth a punt !

In reply to a post by hotdogz:

the phone line is fine . no noise or buzzing . its just that sky broadband drops out and that is what sets of his alarm and the alarm calls help

How can it be confirmed the phone line hasn't dropped simultaneously with the broadband?

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Loss of broadban signal triggering another device is odd particularly if the phone is still working fine at that point

It is possible the line is within spec but just bad enough to cause issues with the alarm, one assumes it is a disller alarm that call a number when triggered

yes it dials when the alarm goes off and medics are sent .

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Double microfilters might help

Worth a punt !

its been tryed . faceplate filter and plug in ..

Land-line REN loading? What's the total? How many devices attached?

I'm confused about cause and effect here ... Just what is the cause of the problem, and what is a symptom, and what is unrelated?

Is the alarm causing a glitch on broadband, or is the broadband causing a glitch on the alarm?

My understanding of these alarms is that there is some form of trigger (such as a pendant fob, with a button to be pressed), and a dialler box connected to the line. Normally, the alarm dials the response centre - it does not make a connection across the internet. However, the dialler will complain audibly if it is not connected to the phone line.

Is all of that true here? Or does it work in some other way? Can we ask what the normal activation process is? The steps involved from a trigger being wanted, through to medic arrival.

I ask this because I don't see the role that broadband plays with the alarm under normal circumstances. And, because I can't see that, I don't see how a problem with broadband can cause an issue with the alarm under abnormal circumstances.

If there ought to be no linkage (beyond sharing a voice line), my next step would probably be to switch off broadband for a week, to confirm whether alarm-triggers are halted, or continue unabated.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

I'm confused about cause and effect here ... Just what is the cause of the problem, and what is a symptom, and what is unrelated?

Is the alarm causing a glitch on broadband, or is the broadband causing a glitch on the alarm?

I see things the same way. We have two things appearing to occur simultaneously - a spurious alarm trigger and a broadband disconnection - with no indication of which causes the other, or whether both have an external common cause.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

I ask this because I don't see the role that broadband plays with the alarm under normal circumstances. And, because I can't see that, I don't see how a problem with broadband can cause an issue with the alarm under abnormal circumstances.

If there ought to be no linkage (beyond sharing a voice line), my next step would probably be to switch off broadband for a week, to confirm whether alarm-triggers are halted, or continue unabated.

I would not be surprised if what is happening is the alarm is triggering spuriously, and the alarm dialling out is causing sync to drop on the broadband (as can happen with inadequate filtering of any voice telephony device or in some fault scenarios). It would be interesting to see if making an outgoing call using a phone connected in place of the alarm causes a broadband drop - if it does, that suggests the outgoing call is causing the broadband drop, rather than a broadband drop triggering the alarm.

If there is no clear correlation between outbound calls (or simply picking up a wired phone) and a broadband drop, I agree that the only way to troubleshoot this is to disconnect the broadband equipment from the line to see what effect, if any, that has spurious triggering of the alarm.


I would not be surprised if the alarm is spuriously triggering because:

• the equipment installed in the home is faulty
• there is some interference with a wireless triggering capability (especially if it uses 433.92MHz - so many low power licence exempt devices use that frequency these days including the majority of 'push button' car keys and radio controlled mains appliances - also there are licensed high power users of that band, including radio amateurs), and/or
• the alarm equipment has poor electromagnetic compatibility (to that extent, it might be worth winding the power, phone and other cables to the alarm onto ferrite rings as shown in Figure 4 of this reference)

I'm still not convinced the phone line is not dropping here, and the broadband is dropping at the same time. The only way to know would be if the phone line was in use at the time of the broadband dropping (i.e. call dropped, or not).

All we know is that there is no noise on the line, which doesn't prove it's not dropping (i.e. brief periods of no dialtone triggering alarm).

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

I'm confused about cause and effect here ... Just what is the cause of the problem, and what is a symptom, and what is unrelated?

Is the alarm causing a glitch on broadband, or is the broadband causing a glitch on the alarm?

My understanding of these alarms is that there is some form of trigger (such as a pendant fob, with a button to be pressed), and a dialler box connected to the line. Normally, the alarm dials the response centre - it does not make a connection across the internet. However, the dialler will complain audibly if it is not connected to the phone line.

Is all of that true here? Or does it work in some other way? Can we ask what the normal activation process is? The steps involved from a trigger being wanted, through to medic arrival.

I ask this because I don't see the role that broadband plays with the alarm under normal circumstances. And, because I can't see that, I don't see how a problem with broadband can cause an issue with the alarm under abnormal circumstances.

If there ought to be no linkage (beyond sharing a voice line), my next step would probably be to switch off broadband for a week, to confirm whether alarm-triggers are halted, or continue unabated.

he has 2 ways of calling help 1 is to push dial on the alarm and it calls for help and 2 he has a fall key fob alarm around his neck . ( at the min hes told the help line only to come if the fall alarm is set off )

Yes the only conection is the phone line as i have said not the broadband. He has had the tech guys out who he has his alarm off and all has been tested and diagnostics test ran and all is 100% .
I was around his house last night watching a film on apple tv and it stopped then the alarm start to dial so i cancelled it i had my laptop with me so i logged into his sky hub and 30 secs before the film stopped the router had dropped out .

9AM this morning his new sky hub turned up so i plugged it all in ect ect . just got back and so far no drop outs will check again tomorrow .

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Loss of broadband signal triggering another device is odd particularly if the phone is still working fine at that point

Very odd indeed, if the alarm doesn't connect to the broadband at all. Could it be the alarm itself that is a problem ?

diagnostics tests been ran and all is fine

In reply to a post by David_W:

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

I'm confused about cause and effect here ... Just what is the cause of the problem, and what is a symptom, and what is unrelated?

Is the alarm causing a glitch on broadband, or is the broadband causing a glitch on the alarm?

I see things the same way. We have two things appearing to occur simultaneously - a spurious alarm trigger and a broadband disconnection - with no indication of which causes the other, or whether both have an external common cause.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

I ask this because I don't see the role that broadband plays with the alarm under normal circumstances. And, because I can't see that, I don't see how a problem with broadband can cause an issue with the alarm under abnormal circumstances.

If there ought to be no linkage (beyond sharing a voice line), my next step would probably be to switch off broadband for a week, to confirm whether alarm-triggers are halted, or continue unabated.

I would not be surprised if what is happening is the alarm is triggering spuriously, and the alarm dialling out is causing sync to drop on the broadband (as can happen with inadequate filtering of any voice telephony device or in some fault scenarios). It would be interesting to see if making an outgoing call using a phone connected in place of the alarm causes a broadband drop - if it does, that suggests the outgoing call is causing the broadband drop, rather than a broadband drop triggering the alarm.

If there is no clear correlation between outbound calls (or simply picking up a wired phone) and a broadband drop, I agree that the only way to troubleshoot this is to disconnect the broadband equipment from the line to see what effect, if any, that has spurious triggering of the alarm.


I would not be surprised if the alarm is spuriously triggering because:

• the equipment installed in the home is faulty
• there is some interference with a wireless triggering capability (especially if it uses 433.92MHz - so many low power licence exempt devices use that frequency these days including the majority of 'push button' car keys and radio controlled mains appliances - also there are licensed high power users of that band, including radio amateurs), and/or
• the alarm equipment has poor electromagnetic compatibility (to that extent, it might be worth winding the power, phone and other cables to the alarm onto ferrite rings as shown in Figure 4 of this reference)

i just went around and uplugged his alarm n pluged a phone in and ran my house spoke to girlfriend for 2 mins then hung up.. looked then in the hub settings and still showing 3h 35min up time . so no drop outs due to making a call ..

In reply to a post by hotdogz:

he has 2 ways of calling help 1 is to push dial on the alarm and it calls for help and 2 he has a fall key fob alarm around his neck . ( at the min hes told the help line only to come if the fall alarm is set off )

So the alarm will dial out in both cases (pushing button on alarm unit *or* pushing button on wireless fob), but the response company can subsequently detect which button was pressed, and will ignore anything from the unit. Is that right?

If so, can you tell from the house (as you cancel the alarm) if it was triggered from one source or the other?

Yes the only conection is the phone line as i have said not the broadband. He has had the tech guys out who he has his alarm off and all has been tested and diagnostics test ran and all is 100% .

That isn't really a categorical "100% fine". It means that it was 100% fine when tested.

Unfortunately, your problem is intermittent, so the only time a part of the infrastructure can be declared "100% fine" is if it were being monitored at the actual time of one of the failure events.

In my mind, the alarm unit (including the wireless fob) is still as much suspect, as is the wireless spectrum they use to trigger.

I was around his house last night watching a film on apple tv and it stopped then the alarm start to dial so i cancelled it i had my laptop with me so i logged into his sky hub and 30 secs before the film stopped the router had dropped out .

So the order of events was:
- Router dropped out
- 30 seconds later, TV buffer was exhausted, and show paused
- After the pause was noticed, the alarm dialler started

How long after pushing the alarm fob does it take the dialler to start to dial? Would that amount of time correlate back to the time the TV paused? Or longer, and back to the time the router dropped out?

What log messages did the router put out to report the link drop?

With what you have described so far, it could be something happening on the phone line that both the router and the alarm take exception to. The modem responds by re-syncing, while the alarm responds by dialling. That could still be caused by the modem, alarm, or be something external (cable rubbing against power cable?); I don't yet see anything to point one way over the others.

It could be something RFI-wise that manages to cause a sync drop *and* triggers the alarm as though the fob had been pressed.

9AM this morning his new sky hub turned up so i plugged it all in ect ect . just got back and so far no drop outs will check again tomorrow .

Good thing to do. Eliminating one possible cause at a time.

Exceeding the REN count will only cause issues with incorrect ringing on incoming calls.

its been over 24h now and ive been around and plugged my laptop in his speeds are bang on the same as yesterday after i fitted the new sky hub for him also i checked in the hub settings and theres been no drop outs its been stable since the time i turned the new hub on also theres been no dialing from his fall alarm .

Just a update , its now been 47hours useing the new sky hub and not 1 drop . in the settings its showing 46h 59m up time bang on to when i plugged the new router in and turned it on .

so the 7 open reach and the 2 openreach broadband workers what sky sent out were a waste of time they should of just sent a new hub like i got my mate to ask for 2 months ago ...

The engineers should have spotted the problem TBH.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

The engineers should have spotted the problem TBH.

yes , but they kept saying to my friend it was a problem with filters when he asked 3 of them about maybe its the modem they said no its fine lol

Difficult to spot such a random issue as this TBF.

A rule of thumb I have passed on to those I've trained .....
When attending an SFI for a Sky customer, if you turn up and Sky have already sent a replacement router, that won't be the issue, if they haven't, it will be.

Looks like it would have worked here as well [smug]

... and so far no-one has spotted the branch the wrong way round in the decision tree sheets they give their phone support people.

I'm a lumberjack, and I'm OK

Thanks for keeping us all posted on progress - something new.

last update , the new sky hub has now been plugged in for 7 days
settings show 168 hours up time when i checked 25 mins ago
so no drop outs and the alarm has not called for help

so i was right at the begining it was the hub what wasnt working ...

sky has offered 3 months free plus another 3 months after that due to the 1st 3 months not working also a 75£ gift card

wasnt that hard to get as soon as my friend spoke about the 6k call out bill for his help line and they were thinking about taking action as it was sky hardware

6k callout bill. £6,000? On top of normal charges? Who pays that?

I assume this is the cost to the medical callout service (whoever is funding that - NHS, social services?). In any event, at £450 per callout it sounds very high.

However, I can see enormous problems trying to claim this against Sky. Domestic phone services simply aren't provided on the basis that they have this level of cost exposure. It's wildly out of proportion to the service charge.

Agreed.

I stupidly didn't check the OP before posting, as I was so taken aback. It does say there £450 per callout. But that is ridiculous. Particularly considering the condition for which the service is being provided.

Looking again, it isn't quite clear that the circumstances for a charge arose, and if they did whether a charge has been made or not.

I think if I were suffering seizures of the kind described, charges like that for false alarms caused by things outside my control would cause one.

At least the OP has managed to get it fixed. That must be a huge relief to the friend .

Yes. It is a bit odd though. It is, of course, quite possible for a broadband modem to prevent the phone line working. It does, after all, connect direct to the line with no filtering. However, I still don't understand how it can cause a device to dial-out. Strange.

As you say, at least it is still working.