BT outage

Not sure how widespread, but major BT outage here in Suffolk.

Edited by professor973 (Wed 15-Jul-15 15:19:17)

Has it been down for a while? Looks like my Samknows box didn't do its 3pm test so suggests my connection at home could well have been down for at least 30 mins. Not at home to check it though.

Since about 2:15. Showing as BT core outage if I remember correctly on P8 control panel, or so Adam said on phone.

Pulse8 control panel? Is that something we can access or only Pulse8 can see?

Only P8. Still out here, take it hou ok

Oh i thought you were on TTB with Pulse8 hence why i was confused. And yea im on ok but on TTB LLU

Edited by bobble_bob (Wed 15-Jul-15 17:21:27)

I am on Pulsate fibre - reduced to 3g now !

Ah isnt that run over BT network then at some point?

Im only on ADSL so avoid the BT network altogether.

Apaft from cable, fibre originates feom BT. TT resell it and P8 resell it again. Still out here, so a biggie - Digger through a cable possibly.

The strange thing is that AAISP don't seem to be reporting anything.

If talk talk LLU backhaul network is used by P8 then only the fibre from cabinet back to handover exchange is in the BT realm

Beyond that TalkTalk retail and wholesale is so low price by using their own large fibre network

As you say Bob, strange - Still out and now going to check if the TP-Link TD-W9980 has given up the ghost, if so, I just about give up with vdsl modem routers.

As Andrew implied, I think it may be a TTB network problem.

If all the people with this are on TTB LLU, and none on BT Wholesale, then that will be it.

I doubt if it's your router, though whether or not it complies with the Openreach requirements, (somewhere a long way down in SIN 498), I haven't looked. Not my problem.

Edit - the cause could be just as you said earlier - an out-of-control digger. Or similar accident.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 15-Jul-15 22:04:15)

Im on TTB no issues

So is it just you connection on Fibre affected or all fibre connections on the same cabinet as yourself...

I ask this as you say you out, but your on Pulse8 which as you've said many times that is TalkTalk Business Fibre Resold.... this means that the only involvement BT (or even Openreach) would have is between your cabinet and the exchange where TalkTalk's LLU takes over...

If you are the only one affected then I would assume you have been mislead and Pulse8 has actually got you routed via BT WBC/WBMC and not via TalkTalk LLU like were lead to believe it should be.

professor973's speedtest shows he has a TalkTalk IP address, so is on TalkTalk network.

Yes but doens't mean he's using TT LLU... just means he is hitting TT network at some point or even just has an IP that belongs to TalkTalk.

In reply to a post by ian72:

Has it been down for a while? Looks like my Samknows box didn't do its 3pm test so suggests my connection at home could well have been down for at least 30 mins.

Any more input on this please Ian? And are you still on BT, or now on Pulse8? Or other!

In reply to a post by professor973:

or so Adam said on phone.

Adam is bluffing.

He only gets a TT IP address by being directly connected to TalkTalk DHCP servers. Some TTB resellers use the TT MSAN but from there on it is nothing to do with TT and they have non-TTB IP addresses.

I prefer "possibly mistaken". Maybe even "possibly misinformed by his underlying supplier".

Thinking a little while typing that, it could be a problem in BTW or Openreach fibre rented by TT for their own network. So both true and false. I.e. nothing to do with BT Wholesale cloud, but quite possibly a BT Group issue.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 15-Jul-15 22:18:29)

OK, so its still possible that the pulse8 fibre connection could be going to the exchange and then leaving the exchange via BTw and then meeting TT's network later on... maybe in London... like Plusnet's... and not leaving the exchnage via TalkTalks network.

No. Most definitely not.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 15-Jul-15 22:19:34)

Well I believe it is...

You cant say an IP address can't be tagged as TalkTalk's if running via BT Wholesale... or else Zen, Plusnet, EE... ECT... would not be able too.

Nah. Adam is bluffing and telling the affected what they want to hear.

There is no major core BT fault in Suffolk and even if there was, it wouldn't affect punters on TalkTalk referral providers. There is no major core fault in Suffolk on TalkTalk either.

Have Pulse8 paid the bill?

In reply to a post by partial:

Have Pulse8 paid the bill?

I was going to post that

TT Business is by definition LLU. LLU by definition does not use WBC/WBMC. That does not preclude it using BT Group dark fibre.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 15-Jul-15 22:24:39)

Ummm. Zips lips and thinks.

Im on Pulse 8 and still online

http://btbusiness.custhelp.com/app/service_status/

Lots of "loss of broadband" being reported around 2:05. Not sure if the problem OP is facing happened AM or PM

Edited by bobble_bob (Wed 15-Jul-15 22:27:48)

Then why would a BT fault affect it!

What if TTB LLU is not available... In know that Pulse8 can still provide a service then so they must have options to provision via BT Wholesale...

Who knows, maybe a mistake with the provision lead professor to be provisioned via BT instead of TTB...

Possibly an outage at that exchange he is on?

What BT fault? We seem to have established that BT Wholesale WBC/WBMC is not affected. Every ISP in the country would have the problem.

Therefore it cannot be TT Business using WBC/WBMC. Which in any case , they simply do not do. It would defeat the whole purpose of their existence.

So in the end we have to agree to disagree and can only take the following from the information shared above, which is:

We still know very little about Pulse8's network and can't be sure of who they use to provide their service, they might use TalkTalk, they could use WBC where TTB LLU isn't available, it could be mixture depending on products..

Pulse8 also seem to release information thats seems to be wildly inaccurate, which isn't too good... but others do that too so

The issue could be anywhere really but one thing for sure is that their is no "BT" fault that should be affecting Professors service unless Pulse8 have been less than honest with him.

Pulse8 also seem to release information thats seems to be wildly inaccurate,

Out of interest what information is that?

As far as im aware going on what Adam told me, Pulse 8 use TTB LLU where possible, but will use the BT network when LLU not available. Everything goes over the TTB network (certainly for me on LLU) as i can see from my traceroutes

I think we have to also take into account that he was having issues before today with his line.

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/otherisp/t/4405578-...

My statement you have quoted was regarding the following quote..

In reply to a post by professor973:

Since about 2:15. Showing as BT core outage if I remember correctly on P8 control panel,or so Adam said on phone.

However as you have said your connection sure used TTB LLU, However I may be wrong but your using ADSL not VDSL and also you said where TTB LLU isn't available BT would be used...

Well it could be a case that even if TTB LLU is physically available at the exchange, it may not be in any order to accept another connection for whatever reason so it is still possible that the connection in questions could be routing via BT Wholesale.

PS. my traceroutes say nothing about using BT's network, but it does!

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

TT Business is by definition LLU.

TTB is not LLU when it's provisioned via GEA-FTTC.

GEA-FTTC needs backhaul from the exchange handover point and for TTB that will be over the TalkTalk backhaul network that supports the much larger ADSL2+ and business connection options.

Post deleted by mlmclaren

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

GEA-FTTC needs backhaul from the exchange handover point and for TTB that will be over the TalkTalk backhaul network that supports the much larger ADSL2+ and business connection options.

Yes. But as I say the GEA-FTTC connection cannot be called LLU. Backhaul is not the local loop.

Would this give a definitive answer - https://my.xilo.net/xilo/adslchecker.php

Pop the phone number in there and it comes back with "Line status: The line currently has LLU DSL. A migration must be placed, however, normal activation charges will apply."

Assuming if on BT it would say something different

While correct, it would mean many people assuming then that all GEA-FTTC is created equally in terms of throughput

The BIG bit of LLU that made it cheap was the backhaul network.

Also should be highlighted that if voice is via TalkTalk too then it will be via the TT MSAN and thus is unbundled, and the fibre link in the handover exchange joins TalkTalk network via a port on their MSAN

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Also should be highlighted that if voice is via TalkTalk too then it will be via the TT MSAN and thus is unbundled, and the fibre link in the handover exchange joins TalkTalk network via a port on their MSAN

Whilst the voice line may well be unbundled via MPF in that instance, the GEA-FTTP broadband connection would still not unbundled/LLU. Yes, they would likely be connected to the same infrastructure at the exchange, but it cannot be called LLU fibre broadband.

I think this discussion has gone from silly to ridiculous while I've been walking my dog.

FTTC/FTTP arrives at the exchange from premises and is presented to CPs via Openreach GEA. It is fed through GEA links to various CPs' MSANs. This is defined by Ofcom as VULA. GEA is in fact Openreach's implementation of VULA, not vice versa.

For anyone to suggest that TalkTalk Business which only ever has presence at an exchange via a TalkTalk MSAN would then at some stage use WBC/WBMC is just nonsense. For someone connected to that MSAN for their FTTC to have a TalkTalk IP address implies to me that they are also on TalkTalk Business backhaul at all stages. If simply using TT Tails, then the IP address would belong to either someone like Daisy, or the ISP providing the service to the end user.

I may of course be wrong on that, but it needs someone in a position to know to show me. Simply hypothesising that it may not be the case is a waste of time for both parties when everything we have seen over several years, plus many such setups, strongly suggest I'm right.

TT backhaul, as I have said, could very possibly use dark fibre from BTW or Openreach. That is nothing whatsoever to do with BT Wholesale "backhaul" as we understand it, i.e. WBC/WBMC/IPStream Connect.

We started arguing about professor973's connection. He is on Pulse8 FTTC. His IP address belongs to TalkTalk. For his connection to go down between his home and the exchange directly involves Openreach. From there on it is TalkTalk backhaul and routers. The only possible BT Group involvement would be dark fibre rental.

Since you hit reply to my post, I'll reply. I was simply saying that TalkTalk Business via FTTC GEA is not LLU, regardless of what equipment it is connected to at the exchange. I made no reference to WBC/WBMC.

It's VULA. Virtual Unbundled Local Access. I think you were ignoring the context, which is entirely about whether the Prof's line is LLU from the exchange onwards .

The logic of what you say is that TalkTalk and Sky non BT Wholesale backhaul cannot be described as LLU, as they aren't local loop.

Edited by RobertoS (Thu 16-Jul-15 00:21:59)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

It's VULA. Virtual Unbundled Local Access. I think you were ignoring the context, which is entirely about whether the Prof's line is LLU from the exchange onwards .

Well I did also say that backhaul is not part of the local loop either.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The logic of what you say is that TalkTalk and Sky non BT Wholesale backhaul cannot be described as LLU, as they aren't local loop.

Yes, pretty much, because backhaul is not part of the local loop. I'm only really saying it because the term LLU is somewhat overused and applied to things it is not. LLU is MPF and SMPF, it is not GEA FTTC or backhaul.

I believe the distinction is important, not least because at least one ISP has argued for BT to offer an LLU FTTC offering.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

I believe the distinction is important, not least because at least one ISP has argued for BT to offer an LLU FTTC offering.

Ohhhh!!! Please tell .

I believe you, and it's hilarious.

(Technically speaking of course, WBC/WBMC/IPStream connect are LLU at the exchange end just as much as TT, Sky and Vodafone are).

Edited by RobertoS (Thu 16-Jul-15 00:38:25)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Ohhhh!!! Please tell .

I believe you, and it's hilarious.

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2013/07/ofcom-u...

Why hilarious?

Right. Yes, I remember that (now) from when it came out, but that isn't what I thought you meant. I didn't read LLU FTTC as meaning SLU. I thought you meant something in the exchange.

I think Mark's "request by Sky Broadband (BSkyB) for BT to offer a new unbundled (LLU) superfast broadband (FTTC) product" wording is a sort of dumbing down, although he does later make it clear, after his Ofcom quote, what the Sky request is about.

Edited by RobertoS (Thu 16-Jul-15 00:58:40)

Wherever it was, it is back up this morning. messed around with three routers till about 2:00am - All showing internet connected, but displaying a "link down" message at the web interface.

That's correct, just after 2:00pm. Was still down at 2:00am. Not sure when back up as reset router and did not make it pingable till 7:30am.
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/8e91c271f27...

They are OK. I doubt I would find another CD who would be on the phone half the afternoon trying to help, Suppose he could have put a shilling in the meter around 5:00am lol

If you look at the makeup of TT, i think that even a pigeon could be involved lol - Expect all the same though.
http://bgp.he.net/AS13285#_peers

Little wonder I am confused, as I find many conflabs here go that way lol - Speedtest.net still shows as Tiscali (TT owned) despite TT fibre IP address - Does that put another cat among the pigeons ?
A test for you all - Download PingPlotterPro, then target www.talktalk.co.uk, www.bbc.co.uk and www.google.com. Post results here. i am betting 100% packet loss on hop 8, just after the as13285 TT hops.
https://www.pingplotter.com/pro.html

Edited by professor973 (Thu 16-Jul-15 08:56:48)

I sure as hell was not the only person to have fibre problems from afternoon yesterday till this morning. Take a look at a "premium" ISP before rubbishing mine.
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/e7ee706db3c...

Seems his problems are identical to mind, even back from ADSL - Few good days, few bad days, red spikes and certain times involved.
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4420350-re-...

Edited by professor973 (Thu 16-Jul-15 09:50:05)

Unrelated to what I was saying...

Vivaciti don't use TTB LLU!

Also the user who graph you have quoted has always had issues though not as bad as that yesterday,

Also I didn't say Pulse8 was rubbish... I was saying that were still not sure what setup pulse8 use and that something seems fishy with regards to its "supposedly" being a TTB LLU service but yet a BT "core" issue can affect it?

Also the BQM you quoted... was this using BT or was it using an LLU?

Sorry, was a false alarm. Samknows was just behind on updating the graph and the connection was up and running. And I'm still on BT - only checked because the subject of the OP was "BT Outage".

I didn't say they did! - Look back, and you will see I have ALSO had ongoing issues from ADSL that have continued on VDSL, just like the user I pointed out. That was my point. Looking back, will also show that I stated Pulse8 said a BT issue was showing. You will also see that I stated 'To the best of my memory', so the word 'Core' may well be more of my making than Pulse8.
To think that a simple request to see if anyone else had an outage turned into such a chimp's tea party is laughable. As usual a bunch of anoraks, each convinced they are the only one correct. Still better than the fools lantern these days for entertainment.

Edited by professor973 (Thu 16-Jul-15 10:42:51)

So your posting of incorrect information regarding a "core" fault with BT was incorrect then and is what mislead the discussion on this thread... in this case I will take back most things I've said above.

I'm aware that you have had line issues for some time and that thanks to Pulse8 these have been finally fixed... I'm glad they managed to fix an issues that another ISP couldn't be arsed too.

yep this for fibre pro, sky want to give us fibre pro customers control of our own DLM.

so long plusnet.

Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [212.58.246.104]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms home.gateway [192.168.1.253]
2 * * * Request timed out.
3 10 ms 10 ms 10 ms 02780842.bb.sky.com [2.120.8.66]
4 10 ms 10 ms 9 ms ntl-ge2-9.prt0.rbsov.bbc.co.uk [212.58.238.189]

5 * * * Request timed out.
6 9 ms 9 ms 9 ms ae0.er01.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk [132.185.254.93]
7 10 ms 10 ms 10 ms 132.185.255.165
8 9 ms 9 ms 9 ms fmt-vip133.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk [212.58.246.104]

Thanks, I did say I could not remember exactly the description, other than a BT fault was showing P8 end. That was not the case initially, so Adam was on the phone trying to help.
Yes, my line is good now. Thanks to P8 I had another no cost engineer visit on Monday trying to sort routing packet loss. Lots of problems here. Engineer in my road all day Monday and early today, ending in hauling entrails from the sump beside my cab again.