Can't switch back to ADSL. Fiber slower

Hi, I live in a rural area and on ADSL was getting about 3mb broadband. I was sold a fiber package by Sky for £17 a month and switched over 3 days ago but the speed is an abysmal 0.8mb download and upload 0.8mb. I called Sky who sent an engineer out today who's equipment could not even pick up a connection it's so bad. I asked Sky to go back to ADSL and they said it was not possible. I have been advised to write to ofcom and my MP.
I would like to switch back to ADSL- will this be possible? Any advice much appreciated I'm gutted. Thanks

It is possible and is Sky being bad.

What speed estimate did Sky give you for the VDSL2?

Hi the speeds adviced were a min of 2.5 to 8mbps. Any suggestions as to how to get the line switched back to ads or for the fibre to be increased. The engineer immediately said we are too far away to get it but open reach website says we can get it as do all the suppliers.
0.79mbps download, 0.86 Mbps upload and ping of 48 are our most recent speed test results obviously on the fibre line.

If fibre involves less copper cables how is it possible to get slower speeds than adsl?

The speed depends on the distance from the cabinet

VDSL2 performs differently over distance compared to ADSL

Okay there should ideally be caveats since when the estimates are that low the chance of it being wrong is much higher.

As for switching back - Sky just need to cancel the VDSL2 and fall back to their ADSL2+ service. Entirely possible and if they refuse its get refunds and go elsewhere.

On the estimate - the suggestion is that you are 1.5km to 2km from the street cabinet supplying the VDSL2 service.

In reply to a post by mootster:

I asked Sky to go back to ADSL and they said it was not possible. I have been advised to write to ofcom and my MP.

That sounds like Mr. Unhelpful on the Sky helpdesk - he told me to contact Ofcom and my MP too.

What does http://192.168.0.1/sky_system.html say for your connection speed?

The logon details are admin/sky

Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 818 kbps 585 kbps
Line Attenuation 61.1 dB 0.0 dB
Noise Margin 6.8 dB 6.6 dB
Poll Interval:

Hi we are 2.1miles from the exchange.
The guy kept saying that they weren't allowed to put it back. Then when I asked for a proper explanation he repeat what tech had told him that they couldn't put it back as they wouldn't be able to get fast enough speeds. I repeated that I had 3.5mbps on ADSL and don't understand there explanation. I am waiting for the escalated tech team to calms back between 4 &5pm. I have tried to take out a different contract with other service providers today and no rod them will offer me an ADSL connections and keep telling me that when it is changed you can't go back. Plusnet told me it was a recent government policy as they have to meet targets to get the country on super fast broadband.

Were you with Sky for ADSL, I assume you were, but .....?

Do you know the name of the exchange you are connected to?

Edited by Apprentice (Sat 07-May-16 15:42:52)

No we were with a company called tentel for ADSL, we are with sky for fibre that does not work.
The exchange is Sorbie. We are 2.1 miles away from it. It has only just got a live Fibre offering.

A switch back to ADSL query from last year:- http://tinyurl.com/gnuwpeh

https://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/WSSOR

I don't know how up to date SamKnows is for your exchange but as there is no LLU provision in the exchange then you don't want to get ADSL from Sky, that product is called Sky Connect and is best avoided, Sky broadband is OK if they have their LLU kit in the exchange.


Edit:- http://www.sky.com/shop/broadband-talk/broadband-con...

Edited by Apprentice (Sat 07-May-16 16:40:56)

As Sky don't have LLU at the exchange they will not move the customer to ADSL I suspect. To return to the old ADSL supplier means the Sky needs cancelling by Sky and then an order to be placed with a chosen new supplier. Another way may be for a migration to be placed by the chosen ADSL provider, but you need to have ensured that the Ofcom Speed Code of Practice rules on speeds are inforce so that you don't get stung for the 12 month minimum term on the VDSL2.

The cabinet and there is just one for Sorbie is just outside the exchange I believe and 2.1 miles is at the point where if you'd asked anyone on here whether worth ordering there would have been a sharp intake of breath with a line like 'how lucky do you think you are'.

Two postcodes around 2 miles from Sorbie are far enough way I reckon on VDSL2, another in the south east is margin with 3 Mbps, and on the road to Whauphill last postcode on Sorbie exchange has a massive 5 Mbps estimate from us.

In reply to a post by mootster:

Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 818 kbps 585 kbps
Line Attenuation 61.1 dB 0.0 dB
Noise Margin 6.8 dB 6.6 dB
Poll Interval:

That's ADSL not fibre.

Exchange is believed to have IPStream Max only and very very unlikely Sky has connected user on IPStream Max Premium which is the only way to get above 448 Kbps upload on IPStream Max.

Massively high attenuation is possible with VDSL2 just you don't see it very often.

If there's no Sky LLU at the exchange then Sky won't be able to supply Sky fibre either.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

If there's no Sky LLU at the exchange then Sky won't be able to supply Sky fibre either.

This is not correct. If a non sky LLU exchange is daisy chained to a Sky LLU exchange then sky can and do provide fibre.

Is the Sorbie exchange daisy-chained to a Sky LLU exchange?

Yes it seems Sky fibre is available at your location but no other Sky broadband is, so Sky were not lying - they actually cannot switch you back to ADSL.

To go back to ADSL you'll have to leave Sky.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Is the Sorbie exchange daisy-chained to a Sky LLU exchange?

Seems to be.

OHP Exchange code: NES
OHP Exchange name: NEWTON STEWART

Matt

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Okay there should ideally be caveats since when the estimates are that low the chance of it being wrong is much higher.

As for switching back - Sky just need to cancel the VDSL2 and fall back to their ADSL2+ service. Entirely possible and if they refuse its get refunds and go elsewhere.

On the estimate - the suggestion is that you are 1.5km to 2km from the street cabinet supplying the VDSL2 service.

The thing about the estimate is that it is usually based on the distance between the cabinet and the DP, with the assumption that there is then a short distance of dropwire going to the customer.

Of course that is true for the majority of people, but for some rural lines there can be 500m to 1km between the DP and the customer's house.

The Openreach estimates that is true (usually), we work to centroid point of postcode, and for individuals I usually fire up street view to get a sense of the spread of properties, and distance from road etc

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Is the Sorbie exchange daisy-chained to a Sky LLU exchange?

It's not that the Sorbie exchange is daisy chained but that the Sorbie fibre cabinet itself is physically connected to another, larger exchange that has Sky backhaul in it. Apparently Newton Stewart.

Edited by deleted (Sun 08-May-16 19:04:57)

That makes sense given you can order Sky fibre but not Sky broadband.

In reply to a post by Icaras:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Is the Sorbie exchange daisy-chained to a Sky LLU exchange?

It's not that the Sorbie exchange is daisy chained but that the Sorbie fibre cabinet itself is physically connected to another, larger exchange that has Sky backhaul in it. Apparently Newton Stewart.

Makes sense, I was given the daisy chained explanation when I was doing the sky fibre trials from the team.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Sun 08-May-16 21:34:09)

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

That makes sense given you can order Sky fibre but not Sky broadband.

And as you will know, it's so common. In my area there's 11 exchanges and 5 headends. So every fibre cabinet in the borough (hundreds) is connected to one of those 5 headends.

The public don't realise (why would they?) and to be fair most Openreach engineers have no clue either, they're never told.

I didn't know it was common, in fact I didn't know it was possible until this thread, as you may be able to see from my earlier replies.

IIRC it was clear from the old leaked FTTC rollout spreadsheets, where often the fibre exchange code wasn't the exchange for the postcode/cabinet.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 09-May-16 09:28:58)

In rural areas it's more likely than not cabinets are connected to a different exchange. For instance, in Charlbury (Oxfordshire) where I've moved to and there is a local exchange (with LLU), the fibre cabinets are connected back to Witney. Almost certainly that is the case with most of the half dozen or more smaller exchanges in the area.

I only know as there's an OR jointer in the local pub. He gives quite an interesting, if colourful, insight into what's involved. It appears a jointer is a few stages up the ladder from the customer engineers that visit houses to fix problems (or maybe that's just an impression he's giving me).

It appears a jointer is a few stages up the ladder from the customer engineers that visit houses to fix problems (or maybe that's just an impression he's giving me).

Buy him another pint and leave him mumbling his rubbish in the corner

It's because VDSL2 uses higher frequencies (so it doesn't overlap with those used by ADSL which would cause interference). Unfortunately, whilst those higher frequencies can carry more data (as there's more bandwidth), they don't travel as far before the signal is so attenuated as to be useless.

There is a slight proviso on that. If a cabinet is a long way from the exchange, some of the ADSL frequencies are so attenuated as to be useless, and the cabinet an reuses some of those lower frequency (and hence more usable at distance) frequencies. Unfortunately this means if you are a long way from you exhange and the cabinet is next to the exchange, you get the worst of all worlds. In that case VDSL will very likely be worse than ADSL as the latter has all the useful "long distance" low frequencies.

The power profile that can be used by a cabinet across the frequency range is called the PSD and it does vary according to the cabinet-to-exchange distance.

Edited by deleted (Mon 09-May-16 09:58:32)

There is an important but subtle point here regarding the ANFP (and which will impact directly on speed calculations). It also means this scenario (cabinet close to the exchange with the customer 2-3km away by "wire distance") will have considerably worse outcome than if you 2-3km from a cabinet which is, itself, perhaps 3km from the exchange.

That point is that the Power Spectrum Density (PSD) mask alters according to the distance from the exchange (in electrical terms - broadly wire length, but subtly altered by wire gauge and other factors). What happens is that the further from the exchange the more of the ADSL frequency range becomes reusable by VDSL (as the higher frequency ADSL bands drop out of usability as the distance from the exchange increases).

What this means is that a VDSL speed assessment based solely on the distance to cabinet and ignoring the cabinet to exchange distance is misleading. The OR systems ought to take account of this in their estimate.

So, the bad news is that if you are on a modest length EO line (say 1.5-2km) and there's been a new cabinet put in next to the exchange then your VDSL service could well be worse than your ADSL speeds.

It's more common in rural areas yes, but I don't live in a rural area. Not remotely.

It seems maybe they've done it so that in future they at least have the option to close down some of the smaller exchanges. We have exchanges here with over 9000 lines (not small then), but they aren't fibre headends.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

I didn't know it was common, in fact I didn't know it was possible until this thread, as you may be able to see from my earlier replies.

No I didn't interperate your reply like that at all. I would have just assumed you'd know anyway.

Edited by deleted (Mon 09-May-16 10:13:03)

I'm sure it's more widespread than just rural areas, just that is the most obvious situation and one which I'd garnered some knowledge about. Obviously in larger towns with more than one exchange it also makes sense.

I can see the logic of being about to retire many local exchanges by fibre hosting from fewer, large ones. But I also think that the problem of retiring all the E-side copper are enormous. It means everybody will have to be on some form of BB or cabinet-based voice service. We are surely a long, long way from that. There's all those LLU MSANs which require copper, and the future of those is beyond BT's powers to decide. Then there is the reliability/resilience issue. Given the inherent complexity of broadband, the number of elements (and parties) involved, getting PSTN-level availability of voice is extremely difficult (although if Ofcom were to recognise that fixed & mobile voice provide a resilient solution together that could surely be relaxed).

So I think this is a distant twinkle, and if significant E-side copper was to be retired by (say) tend years' time, there would have to be regulatory approval now along with detailed technical solutions. However, I can imagine OR trialling the concept in some areas where LLU isn't a complicating factor. It doesn't even need to be a whole exchange.

In reply to a post by TheEulerID:

It's because VDSL2 uses higher frequencies (so it doesn't overlap with those used by ADSL which would cause interference).

That statement is wrong.

VDSL tends to start at Tone7 on the upstream (0) which is 30.1875 kHz with downstream starting at tone 33, 142.3125 kHz.

ADSL2+ Uses up to about 140KHz for upstream with downstream immediately above that.

The Up0/Down1 changeover point was obviously chosen to match that used on an ADSL2 service.

When my contract with BT ends I was thinking of switching back to ADSL. Currently I am on a good discount as a new customer but do not really want to pay the full rate.

I was getting 15 to 18 Mbps before switching to fibre, so not bad for what I need.

I take on board the comments about cockups if trying this but as BT cocked up my switch to fibre, leaving me with no BB for three days nothing new there then.

So as I understand it there is no reason why this is not possible?

For you there shouldn't be.

The OP is in a position where the FTTC provider isn't present in their actual exchange where the ADSL is served from and cannot provide an alternative service.

Matt

Thank you for that, may not do it, but nice to know there should not be a problem.

In reply to a post by mootster:

Hi, I live in a rural area and on ADSL was getting about 3mb broadband. I was sold a fiber package by Sky for £17 a month and switched over 3 days ago but the speed is an abysmal 0.8mb download and upload 0.8mb. I called Sky who sent an engineer out today who's equipment could not even pick up a connection it's so bad. I asked Sky to go back to ADSL and they said it was not possible. I have been advised to write to ofcom and my MP.
I would like to switch back to ADSL- will this be possible? Any advice much appreciated I'm gutted. Thanks

Question? Did you get this resolved?

From Sky.com terms:

When you are selecting a Sky Broadband product to order, we will provide you with an estimate of the fastest download speed that your phone line can support. This is an estimate based on information including the length and quality of your phone line, and refers to the download speed that we believe a Sky Broadband connection could achieve between your router and the broadband equipment in the local telephone exchange

Did you sign up on-line or via the phone? You can Cancel your Sky Fibre service if it does not achieve the estimates, once you have at least allowed Sky to resolve the issue.

Just a bit of help.